leelaw
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FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:00 pm

Guy Norris is reporting in the electronic edition of this week's Flight International (05/09/06) that Airbus is working on a "dramatic redesign" of the A350 aimed at an all new aircraft family capable of leapfrogging the rival 787 as well as the 777.

The new family is expected to comprise three versions A350-800 (aimed at the 787-3/8/9), -900 (aimed at the 787-10 & 772ER), -1000 (aimed at the 773ER) and will include: a larger, all composite wing; an approximately 555mm (19in) wider fuselage; more powerful 85,000-90,000 thrust-class engines; and the same Al-Li structure as the "original" A350.

"Flight International has learned that Airbus internal planning douments claim new techonology engines and lighter structural weight will enable [the A350-1000] to achieve up to a 20% lower fuel burn than 773ER...it is understood that the common cross section is likely to be adopted over an alternative study that favoured retaining the original diameter for the smaller -800/900, and increasing it for the -1000."

The -900 would enter service first in 2012, followed by -800, and the -1000 coming last in either late 2013 or early 2014.

[Edited 2006-05-08 10:33:20]
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LTU932
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:04 pm

This sounds more like this proposed A370 aircraft, though in the case of this "A370", Airbus apparently wants to keep the option open to make it a quad, not twin.

EDIT: Here's the topic on the A370, which sounds a lot like it's actually the A350-1000.
Airbus Considers Newer And Wider A370 (by Singapore_Air May 7 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-05-08 10:07:42]
 
leelaw
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:12 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
This sounds more like this proposed A370 aircraft, though in the case of this "A370", Airbus apparently wants to keep the option open to make it a quad, not twin.

The aforementioned article also reports that:

"The move to the larger twin concept also means the formal abandonement of Airbus's fundamental belief in its long-range four-engine policy."
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andessmf
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
and the same Al-Li structure as the "original" A350.

For a while I was thinking that Airbus might have gotten it right, but they are still using Al-Li. Well. we'll find out soon enough.
 
Devilfish
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
The new family is expected to comprise three versions A350-800 (aimed at the 787 3/8/9),

Does this mean that orders so far for the A350 would automatically be converted to the new version(s)?
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 2):
"The move to the larger twin concept also means the formal abandonement of Airbus's fundamental belief in its long-range four-engine policy."

Nonetheless, Airbus still has time to work on the A350-1000/A370, since if it exists, it's only in the R&D stage. Airbus will have to go through with the A350-8/9 being a twin, while they can still decide on whether to make the -1000/A370 a twin or a quad. Until Airbus makes a formal announcement on this new aircraft, all options may still be open.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Drama

Mon May 08, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3):
For a while I was thinking that Airbus might have gotten it right, but they are still using Al-Li.

If they can get the weight improvements while still using Al-Li, why would using that material be 'wrong'? Composites are not the One True Way, however much a.netters would have you believe.

The problem currently is the weight, not the material. They could use concrete for all the airlines would care, if they could get the weight down to acceptable levels.

This development sounds interesting, I wonder how long until we know one way or the other.

[Edited 2006-05-08 10:22:42]
 
andessmf
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:36 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):

If they can get the weight improvements while still using Al-Li, why would using that material be 'wrong'? Composites are not the One True Way, however much a.netters would have you believe.

Thats true, but the weight advantage is not the only reason to use composite. From the maintenance purpose, the lack of corrosion can help a lot. Plus, more airplanes are being built out of composites than concrete, so right now, the only options you have to build an airplane are metals or composites. Airbus chose metals, Boeing chose composites. The future is certainly interesting.
 
leelaw
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:44 pm

The full text of the article is now available online:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...anges+to+fuselage%2c+wing+and.html
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bells
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:45 pm

 
atmx2000
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:47 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
an approximately 555mm (19in)

So which is it? 19in (483mm) or 555mm (21.9in) The latter is the difference in width between the A300 and 777 cross section so unless Airbus is copying the 777, it must be the former.

Is Airbus sticking to their strategy of designing the frame for X abreast, and not in between X abreast an X+1 abreast? Or are they relying on thinner cabin walls to make up the difference and allow this design to seat 10 abreast? Either way, Airbus fans will have to find some other reason to justify their preference for Airbus widebody jets other than 2+4+2 seating.  Wink

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):
The problem currently is the weight, not the material. They could use concrete for all the airlines would care, if they could get the weight down to acceptable levels.

But the material and the way it is used to make the plane determines the weight. Unless there is something preventing Airbus from making a structurally efficient A350, the increased weight of the A350 versus the 787 likely has something to do with material.
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
But the material and the way it is used to make the plane determines the weight. Unless there is something preventing Airbus from making a structurally efficient A350, the increased weight of the A350 versus the 787 likely has something to do with material.

And thats my point - if they can solve the weight problems with a particular material then why does the material used matter?
 
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
Unless there is something preventing Airbus from making a structurally efficient A350, the increased weight of the A350 versus the 787 likely has something to do with material.

This redesign could actually change a lot, since they won't need to take the old assembly line into consideration.
 
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
And thats my point - if they can solve the weight problems with a particular material then why does the material used matter?

Who says they have solved weight problems? They are at this point comparing this new proposed jet to the 777, and saying nothing about the 787.
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leelaw
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:07 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
So which is it? 19in (483mm) or 555mm (21.9in)

Sorry, my bad, 555mm was a typo, FI says 500mm.
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RichardPrice
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 13):
Who says they have solved weight problems? They are at this point comparing this new proposed jet to the 777, and saying nothing about the 787.

Did I say they had? I said 'if they can solve the weight problems with a particular material then why does the material used matter?'
 
MD-90
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:26 pm

Airbus probably simply can't produce a composite A350 quickly enough to counter the 787. Thus, even with a major redesign, they're sticking with Al-Li.

Cessna, Beech, and Mooney still sell lots of airplanes, even with Cirrus, Columbia, and Diamond out there.
 
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:30 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 16):

Airbus probably simply can't produce a composite A350 quickly enough to counter the 787. Thus, even with a major redesign, they're sticking with Al-Li.

Cessna, Beech, and Mooney still sell lots of airplanes, even with Cirrus, Columbia, and Diamond out there

I personally think they are better off waiting two years at this point to see what 787 is like. But I guess they are afraid that they will lose too many potential sales if they don't do something now. And Boeing will be able to set the price for the 787, and generate significant cash flow in the future to fund new products down the road.
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slz396
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:31 pm

I think the bigger lines of Airbus strategy are becoming clearer every day.

While on this forum Airbus have been bashed heavily for their inability to come up with something radical and their apparent arrogance in sticking to the proposed A350 with its standard 8-abreast seating, they have apparently been working extremely hart on something even more dramatic than what most of us had been hoping/calling/warning (*) for: not only a good 787 competitor, but also a real 777 killer.
(*): fill in as you please depending on your preference.

The comments from ILFC, SQ and ER -and more so their weird reluctance to simultaneously commit to any 787 despite them calling the A350 only second best- can be fully understood too now: they must have seen the detailed proposals, were more than charmed by them yet feared Airbus was going to shelf them for whatever reason you can think of and decided to speak out and thus try to force Airbus to go ahead with what they have seen.

The Boeing cheerleaders happily saw all these comments as pure A350 bashing, but in fact they might very well have been stimulating the A350, although a different A350 than the public at large still had in mind at that time. I personally think that if the A350 is relaunched under this latest form (most probably at Farnborough, given the pace of new reports and the deadline put forward by ILFC's CEO) we will see some of them step on board right away.

I think this wider A350 in 3 versions is not such good news for the 787, as it will now face a much more closely fought battle with a wider and thus more versatile competitor (although it should be able to withstand the attack) but it certainly is terrible news for the 777 line which will be flying on borrowed time as from then on: Emirates for instance has been pushing Airbus to do something to their A340 not to loose the outstanding orders and this A350-1000 might be the much wanted upgrade. One can only start to imagine the consequences for the 777 backlog if indeed the A350-1000 is launched.

It is good news for us aviation enthusiasts however, as it will give us more than one thing too look forward to over the coming years.

Let's hear your views on this.

[Edited 2006-05-08 11:35:33]
 
voodoo
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:43 pm

Just hoping it looks a bit different to break the twin-engine monotony somehow. V-tail anyone?
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Johnny
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:46 pm

If this airplane family come true, it will be a huge step forward for airbus.

It the -1000 is launched very soon, i do not expect further orders for both the A340 AND the B777 as they are BOTH dead with the -1000x and the B787-10 in line...

The 1000X with its wider fuselage could be a big hurt for Boeing for coming B748-sales as well.With the same fuselage length as the A346 it could accom. around 400 pax - the ideal replacement for the B744 is born.
That in combination with a 20percent lower (assumed) fuelburn in comp. to the B777-300ER.
Amazing !!! WOOW!!!
 
ap305
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 6:58 pm

The two decade old fuselage sub-structure probably has a lot more to do with the a350/787 oew gap than the materials used. A new fuselage will change the equation in a big way.
 
MD-90
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 7:36 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 20):
That in combination with a 20percent lower (assumed) fuelburn in comp. to the B777-300ER.

That's a huge assumption. The 773ER is a very efficient aircraft.
 
Lumberton
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Drama

Mon May 08, 2006 7:41 pm

This isn't good news:

Quote:
While dramatically enhancing the product�s overall competitiveness against both the 777 and 787 families, it will also inevitably delay the development schedule. Under the original A350 plan, Airbus expected to put the first aircraft into service in late 2010. Under the revised schedule, first delivery is expected to be no earlier than 2012.
The new plan would call for the introduction of the -900 first, with the -800 following and the -1000 coming last in late 2013 or early 2014.

This new aircraft better leapfrog, not equal, the 787. If you ask customers to wait until at least 6 years from now, they are almost betting their companies (and certainly their jobs) that the wait will be worth it. It's a "leap of faith" by Airbus and their customers. What about the existing customers? If Airbus were to lose one, or two, to Boeing, it would be a PR disaster.

EDIT: Still no A300/310 size replacement here.
What about the A320 replacement? Lots and lots to do in the next 6-8 years!

[Edited 2006-05-08 12:43:36]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Johnny
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Drama

Mon May 08, 2006 7:46 pm

@ MD90

That is what the article says.It is not coming from me, but from Airbus.
 
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 7:47 pm

I have to say that I disagree with some of you here - I do not think that that a bigger Airbus aircraft has a market.

Most of the 747 100/200s have been replaced by relatively new aircraft (777 or 340). Most of the blue chips have gone for the 772 or the 773ER.
Airlines that are not in need of a bigger Aibus:
Singapore (new 773ER)
Cathay (new 773ER)
Emirates (new 773ER)
BA (new 773ER if Rumors true)
Small chances in N. Amercia except Northwest
South African (new 346)
JAL + ANA (new 773ER)
AF (new 773ER)
KLM (new 772)


Potential customers:
Qantas (thought they do not seem to have a need for an aircraft of this size)
LH (have 346, but lots of 343 to be replaced)
Chinese market
 
Thorben
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 7:50 pm

I can't wait for this to be officially announced. An amazing plane, taking on the 787, 777, and maybe even the 747-8 at once. When it goes right, the only long-range plane that Boeing can sell will be the 737-900ER. Thanks Udvar.

But what I wonder is, how will Airbus explain this to those who have already ordered the A350?? They will essentially get a bigger plane than they bought. And that later.
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Lumberton
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 7:52 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):
But what I wonder is, how will Airbus explain this to those who have already ordered the A350?? They will essentially get a bigger plane than they bought. And that later.



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 23):
This new aircraft better leapfrog, not equal, the 787. If you ask customers to wait until at least 6 years from now, they are almost betting their companies (and certainly their jobs) that the wait will be worth it. It's a "leap of faith" by Airbus and their customers. What about the existing customers? If Airbus were to lose one, or two, to Boeing, it would be a PR disaster.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
atmx2000
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 7:57 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 20):
It the -1000 is launched very soon, i do not expect further orders for both the A340 AND the B777 as they are BOTH dead with the -1000x and the B787-10 in line...

Please, the -1000 has an estimated EIS 8 years from now. And gains come partially from engine improvements, which can be shoe horned back onto the 777 engines, and perhaps earlier.

What might have more trouble is the 748I, as its EIS is still 3 or 4 years away. It isn't clear whether Airbus has plans push this closer to that space, though I believe they would have the same problems as with any potential 774 derivative.
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rj777
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 7:58 pm

What about the A360? What is it going to be?
 
leelaw
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 23):
This new aircraft better leapfrog, not equal, the 787.

It's not clear to me from the gravamen of the article how the redesigned A350-800 will "leapfrog" the 787-3/8/9, or the A350-900 the 787-10. If it's largely based on improved engine technology won't the same engines be available for the 787 program as well?
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atmx2000
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 26):
I can't wait for this to be officially announced. An amazing plane, taking on the 787, 777, and maybe even the 747-8 at once. When it goes right, the only long-range plane that Boeing can sell will be the 737-900ER. Thanks Udvar.

Wow, Thorben. You know essentially nothing about this proposal, and yet you are calling it "amazing" and are predicting Boeing won't be able to sell any long range aircraft. Shake those pom-poms!!
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Oykie
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:03 pm

The battle between the A350 and 787 becomes even more interesting for us aviation nerds  Smile

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):
This development sounds interesting, I wonder how long until we know one way or the other.

According to Humbert he says in an interview with Aviation Week that the A350 design is in principle frozen. Further on in the article Humbert says Airbus is aware of the higher fuel consumption of the A340 and higher maintenance cost than the competition and says that they will discuss weather the A350 can be the answer to the A340 crisis.

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 12):
This redesign could actually change a lot, since they won't need to take the old assembly line into consideration.

This makes me wonder. One argument to keep the current cross-section has been the existing assembly line. If they can make the larger cross section fit in the current assembly line, maybe it would make sense.

If Airbus delays the A350 even further they may loose some more key costumers to Boeing. However the redesigned A350 that can compete in the upper end of the 787 class and at the same time compete with the 777 makes allot of sense.

It will be hard for the A350-800 to take on 787-3/8/9 at the same time. The 787-3 and 8 will be more optimized for some routes.

IMO after reading this latest comment this is what I can see as an outcome of the redesign of the A350.

1. Airbus enhances the A340-500/600 and introduces the A350 as is right now. According to the most recent article this seems less and less likely.

2. The A350 is delayed and given a larger diameter fuselage and a larger wing and the A350 takes on the upper end of the 787 and the 777.

3. Airbus continuous the A350-800 and -900 as is and keeps it up with the current EIS schedule. At the same time they develop the larger fuselage diameter A350-1000 or A360 to compete head on against the 777. This latest option would give Airbus airplanes better optimized for each segment.
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Lumberton
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 32):
3. Airbus continuous the A350-800 and -900 as is and keeps it up with the current EIS schedule. At the same time they develop the larger fuselage diameter A350-1000 or A360 to compete head on against the 777. This latest option would give Airbus airplanes better optimized for each segment.

And while they're doing all this, the competition develops a composite follow on the 737....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
zvezda
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):
The problem currently is the weight, not the material. They could use concrete for all the airlines would care, if they could get the weight down to acceptable levels.

The chances of beating the CFRP B787 with either Li-Al or concrete is the same: zero, though they can get a lot closer with Al-Li than with concrete.  Wink

Quoting Johnny (Reply 20):
a 20percent lower (assumed) fuelburn in comp. to the B777-300ER.
Amazing !!! WOOW!!!

Not enough! A B787-11X would have fuel burn about 30% lower than the B777-300ER. That's the target Airbus need to beat. An Al-Li A350 -- even if Airbus were to get the fuselage cross section right -- would kill the B777-300ER and then about two years later in turn be killed by a B787-11X.
 
Joni
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:22 pm

Quoting Aerosol (Reply 25):
Singapore (new 773ER)

Perhaps Airbus could do a "Boeing" and trade those in for Airbus' newer planes?

(remember, Boeing bought SIA's 343s to sell them replacement 777s)
 
Halibut
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:33 pm

In my oppinion , this is exactly what airbus needs to do to counter Boeing's 787 . I do feel at this time ..., airbus is still being rushed on making this desicion . When Boeing came out publicly with regard to there new 787 , they had the luxury to take there time & present all of the new good stuff in the 787 -bigger windows , lower humity etc ., to the airlines .

Airbus on the other hand do not have that luxury & appear to be approaching SQ in a rather desperate manner . Given Airbus's & SQ recent history & this A/C just being draw up on Gustav Humbert & John Leahy clandestine flight to see SQ . I have a difficult time beleiving SQ will go with these new a/c . Other airlines a few months down the road is a different story .

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...anges+to+fuselage%2c+wing+and.html

Quoting FI:
Airbus says: ¡°There has definitely been no decision on the A350 taken yet. We have an A350 already which has been successful in the marketplace. We are talking to customers to see if we should do any optimisation. When we have a clearer picture we will take an internal decision on this.¡±

Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
Glareskin
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 34):
The chances of beating the CFRP B787 with either Li-Al or concrete is the same: zero

That is a bold statement. There must be more ways to save weight or improve fuel burn. I believe Boeing's desicion to choose composites turned out to be a good one until now but:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):
Composites are not the One True Way



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 34):
Not enough! A B787-11X would have fuel burn about 30% lower than the B777-300ER. That's the target Airbus need to beat. An Al-Li A350 -- even if Airbus were to get the fuselage cross section right -- would kill the B777-300ER and then about two years later in turn be killed by a B787-11X.

Will Boeing have only a big 787 family in the future? What would be the name of the 737 replacement? 787-70/80/90?  Wink
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
F4N
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:48 pm

To all:

While all of this appears to indicate that Airbus is leaning toward a reappraisal of the A350 program and may be adopting a broader competitive approach to 777 & 787, one should not expect that Boeing will "stand pat" and allow the competition to eclipe its" offerings. I have to believe that the 764 mentality will not be applied to the 777 and its' replacement.

F4N
 
leelaw
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:51 pm

GE/Pratt & Whitney Engine Alliance makes bid to power revamped Airbus A350:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+bid+to+power+revamped+Airbus.html
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zvezda
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 8:57 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 32):
One argument to keep the current cross-section has been the existing assembly line. If they can make the larger cross section fit in the current assembly line, maybe it would make sense.

The essense of the assembly line is the tooling. The tooling cannot be reused if the fuselage cross section changed. It would be much easier to just to start with a new assembly line.
 
Cruiser
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 9:01 pm

This sounds like yet another knee-jerk reaction a la A350 by Airbus. The comments were made about two months ago, and as a result, it seems that Airbus is about to launch a $10billion program! I wonder how many iterations it will take Airbus this time!!!

One thing about this plane is that it will also severely hamper any A380 sales. The A380 was built to have low low CASM's, yet these new planes are all going to have lower CASM's.

Lastly, Boeing still has the upper hand because the more time that Airbus spends on the A380 and A350 is eating into the time that they could have been working on CFRP and the A320 replacement.

Personally, I think that Airbus is digging itself an even bigger hole by taking on this much work and spending far too much money on it. Will this ultimately cause Airbus to 'get ahead,' or will Boeing simply strap on some new engines and build a 777 CFRP fues equaling the fuel consumption and lowering the maintenance costs?

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
Joni
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 41):
The comments were made about two months ago, and as a result, it seems that Airbus is about to launch a $10billion program!

Note: the comments were made _publicly_ a few months ago, we don't know what they've been discussing behind closed doors.

Note2: so far this is just a rumour, not a €10B program.
 
art
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 18):
The comments from ILFC, SQ and ER -and more so their weird reluctance to simultaneously commit to any 787 despite them calling the A350 only second best- can be fully understood too now: they must have seen the detailed proposals, were more than charmed by them yet feared Airbus was going to shelf them for whatever reason you can think of and decided to speak out and thus try to force Airbus to go ahead with what they have seen.

I like your interpretation.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 20):
It the -1000 is launched very soon, i do not expect further orders for both the A340 AND the B777 as they are BOTH dead with the -1000x and the B787-10 in line...

In particular the A340. The patient's condition is terminal. Why conduct invasive surgery when the B787-10 will kill it stone dead soon after?

Quoting Johnny (Reply 20):
The 1000X with its wider fuselage could be a big hurt for Boeing for coming B748-sales as well.With the same fuselage length as the A346 it could accom. around 400 pax - the ideal replacement for the B744 is born.

Good additional point in the argument for an all new "all new" (quoting Airbus about the previous/current designs) A350.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 36):
Quoting FI:
Airbus says: "We have an A350 already which has been successful in the marketplace."

Candidate for least convincing statement of the year so far? If that were true Airbus not be considering a radical redesign.
 
zvezda
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 41):

One thing about this plane is that it will also severely hamper any A380 sales. The A380 was built to have low low CASM's, yet these new planes are all going to have lower CASM's.

 checkmark 

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 41):
will Boeing simply strap on some new engines and build a 777 CFRP fues equaling the fuel consumption and lowering the maintenance costs?

I don't think so. Boeing would be better off stretching the B787 one more time to produce a B787-11X. The latter would cost far less to develop, far less to build, and would have lower operating costs.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Drama

Mon May 08, 2006 9:15 pm

I have to say I'm dubious about the veracity of Airbus intentions with reference to this article...

A new wider fuselage retaining the same material makeup as the current A350 will not be any lighter than the current A350...I mean the current -800 is already heavier than any 787 variant, so increasing the fuselage volume will only increase the disparity in fuel efficiency by way of increased structural weight...As far as the larger "all new" A350 sub types, not many substantive details can be gleaned from the information, but as I see it Airbus has an uphill battle...

If they wanted to compete more effectively with 777-200ER/-300ER they should have decided this years ago and not aiming for a showdown 8 years hence. This also assumes that Boeing will not improve their current products which is a pretty dangerous assumption. Furthermore, compared to the targeted airplanes the narrower cabin will suffer the same disparity relative to the 777's as the original A350 had relative to the 787. If you are going to make a better plane than the 777 then why not make it bigger?

The article states 20% fuel burn improvement over -300ER? At a higher cruise speed? Very skeptical on that...for this to occur the airplane would have to have an MTOW at least 120,000lbs less than the current 777-300ER, meaning the structure with the same payload and 20% lower fuel burn would need to be some 20t or so lighter than the current 777-300ER. Sticking with Al-Li and creating an airplane of similar structural payload and range capability, with dramatically lower structural weight seems extremely difficult considering the Airbus track record heretofore…

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 34):
Not enough! A B787-11X would have fuel burn about 30% lower than the B777-300ER. That's the target Airbus need to beat. An Al-Li A350 -- even if Airbus were to get the fuselage cross section right -- would kill the B777-300ER and then about two years later in turn be killed by a B787-11X.

I really would not be a cheerleader for this…The chances of a “–11” 787 are very slim to none. It does not at all fit with Boeing’s design considerations for the 787 family. The 777-300ER will be significantly revised or replaced with a new aircraft entirely…A twin isle airplane with that kind of fuselage aspect ratio is completely at odds with Boeing’s engineering sensibilities.

Lastly hasn’t Airbus already sold the current A350 for deliveries commencing 2010? If this is article is based on actual plans then will they ask the current customers, who may have actually put down cash, to wait another 2-4 years for their airplanes?



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
Rj111
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 9:16 pm

I don't suppose anyone knows how much Airbus has sunk into the A350 so far?
 
TP313
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 9:31 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 44):
Boeing would be better off stretching the B787 one more time to produce a B787-11X.

If you don't want this thing to have a very limited range compared to the competition, you can not do it without an enlarged re-inforced wing,
bleedless engines rated (at the very least) at 90,000 lb, new main landing-gear, etc. The problem is there is a limit for what you can grow your
baseline 787 into, beyond which it becomes an altogether new plane, and
a 773ER class aircraft is IMHO beyond that limit. Better do it with a cleansheet design with wider cross-section.
 
Oykie
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 40):
The essense of the assembly line is the tooling. The tooling cannot be reused if the fuselage cross section changed. It would be much easier to just to start with a new assembly line.

Thank you for explaining this. I thought it was the cost of building new buildings for the new plane that increased the cost.

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 41):
Personally, I think that Airbus is digging itself an even bigger hole by taking on this much work and spending far too much money on it. Will this ultimately cause Airbus to 'get ahead,' or will Boeing simply strap on some new engines and build a 777 CFRP fues equaling the fuel consumption and lowering the maintenance costs?

I wonder what Boeing will do with the 777. I don't think they will rush anything with their current order backlog.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 45):
A new wider fuselage retaining the same material makeup as the current A350 will not be any lighter than the current A350...I mean the current -800 is already heavier than any 787 variant, so increasing the fuselage volume will only increase the disparity in fuel efficiency by way of increased structural weight...As far as the larger "all new" A350 sub types, not many substantive details can be gleaned from the information, but as I see it Airbus has an uphill battle...

The main benefit of widening the fuselage, must be that Airbus don't need to but in so much structural weight compared to the A340-600.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 45):
Lastly hasn't Airbus already sold the current A350 for deliveries commencing 2010? If this is article is based on actual plans then will they ask the current customers, who may have actually put down cash, to wait another 2-4 years for their airplanes?

I have been wondering about that my self. Maybe they should just stretch the A350 in the size between the A350-900 and the A340-600, increase the wing span and put on new engines. They will not be able to become market leader this way, but they are able to keep the A350 on track and at the same time offer their costumer a plane in the 777 keeping some costumers away from Boeing.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
ap305
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RE: FI: Embattled Airbus A350 Rethink To Be "Dramatic"

Mon May 08, 2006 10:07 pm

Can someone come up with an actual figure for how much composites can save over al-li in terms of weight for a fuselage. Having studied basic material science for my degree I was under the impression that the primary advantage of composites over al-li lies in production simplicity rather than any weight saving. If this has been gone over previously please accept my apologies.

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