columba
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Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 4:31 am

It is also mentioned in the A350/787 pending orders thread but I wanted to post some excerpts article here:

According to the German news magazine Focus Lufthansa is not very satisfied with the latest products of its suppliers Airbus and Boeing.
Lufthansa demands further improvements on both aircrafts. According to Lufthansa´s fleet manager Nico Buchholz the A350 does not have enough range.
"We would like to have about 1000 or 2000 km more range ",said Buchholz to Focus magazine. He also critized the low number of seats offered on the 787.
"The 787 is smaller than our A340-300. We would like to have it about the same size for the same number of passengers."
.....
According to Scott Scarson, the sales manager of Boeing, he sees an increasing demand in the longer version of the 787-10.
"Emirates was the first customer that came to us regarding the 787, in between there are about 10 airlines that showed interest in it."

Link in German:

http://focus.msn.de/magazin/magazin/...assungen/meldung/xy_aid_21389.html
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timboflier215
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 5:21 am

Where these comment made before or after Boeing announced the -10? And will the -10 be what Lufthansa is looking for?
 
CX747
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 5:33 am

It does seem that more and more customers are pushing for the 787 to have greater capacity. That being said, I wonder if the problem at Lufthansa is the fact that they don't like the A350 and Airbus isn't offering anything else right now!
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DAYflyer
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 2):
That being said, I wonder if the problem at Lufthansa is the fact that they don't like the A350 and Airbus isn't offering anything else right now!

Or they are perhaps buying time until the next version of the A-350 makes it debut....
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boeing767-300
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
According to the German news magazine Focus Lufthansa is not very satisfied with the latest products of its suppliers Airbus and Boeing.
Lufthansa demands further improvements on both aircrafts. According to Lufthansa´s fleet manager Nico Buchholz the A350 does not have enough range.
"We would like to have about 1000 or 2000 km more range ",said Buchholz to Focus magazine. He also critized the low number of seats offered on the 787.
"The 787 is smaller than our A340-300. We would like to have it about the same size for the same number of passengers."

Ever noticed that more and more "debate" is publicly floated (Clark EK Udvar hazy ILFC and even OS) rather than the traditional arena of manufacturer and the customer.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 2):
That being said, I wonder if the problem at Lufthansa is the fact that they don't like the A350 and Airbus isn't offering anything else right now!

 checkmark 

I think you are dead right here. LH does not like the A350. I am sure they will never order the 787 for political reasons.

I think Nico Buchholz should be moaning about the 10% extra fuel his A346s burn over the 77W but that won't likely happen.

There is too much of this 'public opinion' criticizing of mostly yet to be released products. I am refering to the constant doom and gloom of the A350 which will be closer to the 787 than is predicted. The main problem is the inferior aircraft is normally to the market two years before and not two years after and the same applies to the technology within the product.

That is the simple problem Airbus has with the A350. Reactionary, older technology, basically inferior and arriving in the market two years later than 787!!!

I prefer to let the sales do the talking and on that score there is clearly no debate.  thumbsup 
 
Johnny
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:27 am

Looks like LH (like SQ,OS and EK) are crying for the Airbus-Solution.

Probably my statement some days ago about concerns about the B787 from these airlines was not soo wrong.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
According to the German news magazine Focus Lufthansa is not very satisfied with the latest products of its suppliers Airbus and Boeing.
Lufthansa demands further improvements on both aircrafts. According to Lufthansa´s fleet manager Nico Buchholz the A350 does not have enough range.
"We would like to have about 1000 or 2000 km more range ",said Buchholz to Focus magazine. He also critized the low number of seats offered on the 787.
"The 787 is smaller than our A340-300. We would like to have it about the same size for the same number of passengers."

Why not buy the 777LR? Seems like that is what LH wants.

M
 
ikramerica
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:31 am

Well, LH, which is less satisfying...

The A350 and 787, or the 343s you will end up keeping if you don't order either?

They're bitching that the 787-9 isn't as big as the 343, but until the 787-10 was proposed, that was theoretically what the 772ER was for.

The A350-900 is the same size as the 343, but that doesn't suit them either.

So keep on flying those older jets around and see how competitive you are, LH.
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flybynight
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 4):
I think you are dead right here. LH does not like the A350. I am sure they will never order the 787 for political reasons.

What political issues? LH flies lots of Boeing planes. I could understand Iran or Iraq buying US planes, but Germany???
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CargairMax50
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:52 am

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 8):
What political issues? LH flies lots of Boeing planes. I could understand Iran or Iraq buying US planes, but Germany???

Lufthansa is German. Airbus is made of a European Consortium. Germany is part of this consortium as some Airbus planes are built in Germany. That's the political issue.
 
Johnny
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:58 am

@ Ikramerica

Sorry, but you are wrong in one statement:

They say the B787-9 is not as big as the A343, which is true.

But you claim the A359 has the same size as the A343, that is wrong.It is around 3m longer.They only want more range.

Johnny   Smile

[Edited 2006-05-09 04:00:04]
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting CargairMax50 (Reply 9):
Lufthansa is German. Airbus is made of a European Consortium. Germany is part of this consortium as some Airbus planes are built in Germany. That's the political issue.

I am sure Boeing has some operations in Germany as Airbus does in the U.S. It's not really a valid argument for the government, though they may use it.

M

[Edited 2006-05-09 04:16:38]
 
Lp0815
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 11):
I am sure Boeing has some operations in Germany as Airbus does in the U.S. It's not really a valid argument for the government, though they may use it.

The thing is just that no government is involved when LH makes decision what plane to buy.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
So keep on flying those older jets around and see how competitive you are, LH.

That is true indeed.
On the other hand, LH has no real pressure to buy soon, as their A343s and even also the A300s are fit to fly some more years.

Therefore, they can well afford to try and press their suppliers into delivering a product more suitable to LHs needs. Would do the same if I was in their shoes.
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wjcandee
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 1):
Where these comment made before or after Boeing announced the -10? And will the -10 be what Lufthansa is looking for?

A mediocre (mine) translation from the actual German is:

""According to Scott Carson, Boeing sales boss for airliners, Boeing has seen an increasing demand for the long version of the "Dreamliner", the 787-10: "Emirates was the first customer that came to us for the 787-10. Since then, about ten airlines have shown interest." "" [Note that the version of the article in German refers expressly to the 787-10.]

""For the revised "jumbo jet", the B-747-8, the breakthrough in the market is expected to occur in 2006. "We expect that this year we will sign the first customer for the passenger version," said the manager of the US aircraft manufacturer.""

Also note the following:

""In view of Lufthansa's criticism, aviaiton expert Franc Skodzik of investment bank WestLB Panmure sees "serious problems" coming to Airbus. "The A350 is different from the rival Boeing 787, as it is not a newly-designed airplane, but rather an advancement of the A330. Therefore, the orders remain far behind expectations," said the Duesseldorf analyst.""

Hope this helps.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 11:47 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):
But you claim the A359 has the same size as the A343, that is wrong.It is around 3m longer.They only want more range.

Try number of seats....
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PanAm747
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 12:09 pm

Who else is there to buy from?

Lufthansa is in an enviable position - they are going to need aircraft in the near future, and they can put pressure on both Boeing and Airbus to create technologically advanced aircraft that suit their needs.

Eastern and United did the same with Boeing in the early 1960's. Eastern wanted a two-engined jet to fly LGA-Florida fully loaded off the shortest runway. United wanted a four-engine chat to use DEN fully loaded. Boeing made the 727 - a three engine jet with revolutionary high lift devices that satisfied both.

Sometimes results only come when pressure is applied - good for LH!!
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jacobin777
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 5):
Looks like LH (like SQ,OS and EK) are crying for the Airbus-Solution.

Probably my statement some days ago about concerns about the B787 from these airlines was not soo wrong.

care to share those "concerns" Johnny?  Smile
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stirling
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 1:37 pm

Where does LH want to fly this plane to that they need 1.000nm and even 2.000nm more?
The A358 has an AIRBUS stated range of 8.800nm, the A359 a tad shorter with 7.500nm
(Numbers straight from the company website....unless they are bogus? shhh 

What gives?

From Frankfurt 8.800 excludes New Zealand and the West Coast of Australia.
7.500 blanks out all of Australia and South Pacific and much of Antartica....
So where are they planning on flying these birds?

Unless it is saber rattling.

Lufthansa should just shut up and by some 77Ws, that's what they really want right?
It is this reality that tells me it is a political thing unfortunately...cause an aircraft out there exists, its just that their preferred vendor doesn't build it.
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VC10DC10
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 1:42 pm

Quoting CargairMax50 (Reply 9):

Lufthansa is German. Airbus is made of a European Consortium. Germany is part of this consortium as some Airbus planes are built in Germany. That's the political issue.

So what about all the 737s and 747s Lufthansa has? Lufthansa will buy the best aircraft for its needs, just as it has in the past.
 
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 2:24 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 18):
So what about all the 737s and 747s Lufthansa has? Lufthansa will buy the best aircraft for its needs, just as it has in the past.

Purchasing the A340-300 and A340-600 does not back the last sentence in your statement.
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
NASOCEANA
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Well, LH, which is less satisfying...

The A350 and 787, or the 343s you will end up keeping if you don't order either?

They're bitching that the 787-9 isn't as big as the 343, but until the 787-10 was proposed, that was theoretically what the 772ER was for.

The A350-900 is the same size as the 343, but that doesn't suit them either.

So keep on flying those older jets around and see how competitive you are, LH.

Totally agreed. If you don't like it, don't order it!  checkmark 

It seems as if the airlines have been watching "MTV and Pimp my Plane (Ride)! Every airlines wants Boeing or Airbus to customize this and change that to fit their respective business model.

Boeing and Airbus can't please all!!!

Just my $.02
B777 greatest Airliner ever built!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 4):
I am sure they will never order the 787 for political reasons.

And why will the order be political? When will people realise that LH is a private company. The state gave up its ownership over 10 years ago, so politics will have nothing to do with it. LH will order what they want, when they want, with the money they can use for spendings. Neither Angie Merkel, the Transportation Minister or even Parliament have a say on what LH should order.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
Where does LH want to fly this plane to that they need 1.000nm and even 2.000nm more?

It's 1000 to 2000 kilometres, not nautical miles.

Quoting Lp0815 (Reply 12):
On the other hand, LH has no real pressure to buy soon, as their A343s and even also the A300s are fit to fly some more years.

If the LH customer code is used on any future 787 order, then for the time being it will only be Condor using the aircraft. DE may be the ones in need of new aircraft, since their 767 fleet is getting old. The A350 might be a bit too big for DE, which makes the 787 a prime candidate for a one to one 767 replacement.

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 19):
Purchasing the A340-300 and A340-600 does not back the last sentence in your statement.

Actually it does. LH didn't buy the A340s out of political reasons (well, perhaps they did before they got privatised), it is because that's the aircraft type that suits their needs (and perhaps also because fuel prices were low back then, which didn't make the fuel burn advantage twins have over quads that evident). If LH however would have to make the order today, they would surely be evaluating things and it would be a hard decision.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
It is this reality that tells me it is a political thing unfortunately

See above, LH is private and politics has no influence on them.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 4):
I am sure they will never order the 787 for political reasons.

LH is a private company, just in case you forgot. Second, LH have always ordered what suited their needs - if you check their order history you may realize that certain Boeing products didn't exist when LH placed an order.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 4):
I think Nico Buchholz should be moaning about the 10% extra fuel his A346s burn over the 77W but that won't likely happen.

That's a totally different issue - another size of aircraft. And even if it were an issue - probably they wouldn't moan after taking into consideration all the costs for replacing an entire A340 fleet? Is it so hard to realize LH's decision to order the A346 was just a logic one? A short check of their fleet of those days would help.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
but until the 787-10 was proposed, that was theoretically what the 772ER was for.

"WAS", that's correct.

Quoting CargairMax50 (Reply 9):
Lufthansa is German. Airbus is made of a European Consortium. Germany is part of this consortium as some Airbus planes are built in Germany. That's the political issue.

So what? Air France is one of the largest B777 operators. Get over these simplistic conclusions. LH is not like Aeroflot or Chinese airlines.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
Lufthansa should just shut up and by some 77Ws, that's what they really want right?

Really? How do you know that? Have their fleet planners told you that? It's really time to drop that permanent and tiring "LH wants B77W"-drivel - their fleet managers made a final decision not long ago and they have had their reasons.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
It is this reality that tells me it is a political thing unfortunately...cause an aircraft out there exists, its just that their preferred vendor doesn't build it.

This reality or YOUR reality? The latter one I guess...

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 19):
Purchasing the A340-300 and A340-600 does not back the last sentence in your statement.

Of course it does - both types were the most suitable aircraft at the time when LH ordered them.


PH
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zvezda
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):

They say the B787-9 is not as big as the A343, which is true.

The B787-9 has a cabin floor area of 257.4 sq meters. The A340-300 has a cabin floor area of 258.8 sq meters. At armrest height, the B787-9 is insignificantly larger than the A340-300.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):
But you claim the A359 has the same size as the A343, that is wrong.It is around 3m longer.They only want more range.

So they want a plane SLIGHTLY larger than the 789, not as big as the 787-10, and half way between the 358 and 359, with 9000nm range.

Place and order for 50+50, and I'm sure either airline will build you one.

Otherwise, order what is available.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
Where does LH want to fly this plane to that they need 1.000nm and even 2.000nm more?

I think it says 1000-2000 km, not nm.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 7:00 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
If LH however would have to make the order today, they would surely be evaluating things and it would be a hard decision.



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 22):
It's really time to drop that permanent and tiring "LH wants B77W"-drivel - their fleet managers made a final decision not long ago and they have had their reasons.

not entirely correct. before LH ordered 7 additional A346s, they seriously considered the 777 (I believe the -300ER in particular). as a matter of fact, and as was stated by German media, they seemed to like that bird. for one, due to very good economics, and also since their A346s had some technical problems from the start. however, creating a new fleet, and then that small, is not a viable solution. also, Airbus gave LH a very good deal on those 7 A346s.

but obviously, by the time LH initially ordered its first A346s, they believed the A346 was the best plane they could get. would they say so now again? none of us knows the exact answer.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
See above, LH is private and politics has no influence on them.

come on, large corporations do need the favor of politics, and as such, they do return the favor sometimes.
i have stated many times on this board, that the huge deal for up to 100 Do 728 (the regional jet that never made it) was closed between the former CEO and the Bavarian minister of state. and that although at that time LH was already privatized.

rgds
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
Johnny
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 7:08 pm

@ Ikramerica

Why are you so sarcasm about LH and their wishes ? Any bad experiences from your side..?  Smile

I see no difference in comparison to Mr. Clark or ILFC...

We all have the advantages of airlines claiming and asking for something better, otherwise we still would fly longhaul in DC10s ( what in my personal thinking would be great...) and shorthaul in B727 and DC9s only...

Johnny  Smile
 
Hirnie
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 7:15 pm

It`s funny how some people on here react on LH`s statements. If EK or SQ would have done so everybody would have said Airbus must react, Boeing has to improve etc.....but it`s only LH, they don`t know what they are talking about, they only do orders because of political reasons......
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 7:27 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
So they want a plane SLIGHTLY larger than the 789, not as big as the 787-10

789.5!
 
Cure
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 7:47 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
So they want a plane SLIGHTLY larger than the 789, not as big as the 787-10, and half way between the 358 and 359, with 9000nm range.

Place and order for 50+50, and I'm sure either airline will build you one.

Otherwise, order what is available.

Do you agree when Emirates is complaining about A350 asking for better specifics to match their needs (and puttig consequently the B787 in a better light)?...So why not agree with a big airline (many planes eventually ordered) putting pressure on manufacturers to build something it needs?
It is all we need to keep the competition healthy.
If they are in no need to hurry, they have plenty of time to make feel their weight to the industry, and they will eventually keep doing it. Nothing wrong, except your belief they absolutely don't want to buy B.
I think the true innovative thing here is the room gained by public speeches of companies, and I personally like it a lot more!

Regards,

V
 
keesje
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

it looks like this "And 787" is touching some open nerves  spin  First they dare to ignore the 777 and now the 787 ain't good enough, who the f... do they think they are? Big grin

Fact is many real blue chip airlines are not convinced they had to step in. BA, LH, AF, KL, DL, AA, US, SQ, CX .. must I go on?

I think LH is an example of an airline that is in a position to make independent fleet decsisions.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
brendows
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 30):
Fact is many real blue chip airlines are not convinced they had to step in. BA, LH, AF, KL, DL, AA, US, SQ, CX .. must I go on?
You must remember that some of these airlines aren't in the position of buying new airplanes. In BA's case, they have to sort out the problems with the pension first. Also, it might just happen that the current 787 and A350 isn't what they need right now, and that doesn't mean that the 787 & A350 are bad airplanes

Quoting Keesje (Reply 30):

I think LH is an example of an airline that is in a position to make independent fleet decsisions.

I think you are very right on that one Keesje

[Edited 2006-05-09 15:10:02]
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 30):
Fact is many real blue chip airlines are not convinced they had to step in. BA, LH, AF, KL, DL, AA, US, SQ, CX .. must I go on?

DL is in bankruptcy fighting for survival, AA is fighting to avoid CH11, US got some nice financing from Airbus to order A350s, KL only does what AF tells them to do, SQ is about as decisive as SU, and BA, AF, CX currently choose to add 777s over smaller widebodies. LH really is the only airline out of those listed who really is criticising the 787. Truth be told, if AA and DL had they money you'd see both ordering at least 50+80 787s.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:17 pm

Once again it should be noticed that so far nobody has seen any tangible proof that the 787 is as fantastic as Boeing is trying to sell it...
Maintenance people will have sleepless nights once they have to figure out how to repair this plane on structural dammage.
I am sick and tired with the Airbus bashing and the A380 delays,the dead-born A350 story and the announced dead of the A330 and A430.
Far from wishing Boeing bad luck with the Dreamliner,it should be noticed that none of the major european network-carriers have so far ordered the plane.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
A342
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
The B787-9 has a cabin floor area of 257.4 sq meters. The A340-300 has a cabin floor area of 258.8 sq meters. At armrest height, the B787-9 is insignificantly larger than the A340-300.

So go and tell that LH. I'm sure they didn't take this into account. They desperately need your expertise.  Wink
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
dalecary
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 30):
Fact is many real blue chip airlines are not convinced they had to step in. BA, LH, AF, KL, DL, AA, US, SQ, CX .. must I go on?

And fact is the 787 is the fastest selling widebody of all time, by a long way. BA, AA, DL are unlikely to be ready to order this year anyway because of the constraints on their individual businesses. Of the above, I believe we will see 2 announce almost certainly this year(SQ, LH) and I don't think AF are that far away as well.
Would you expect every blue-chip airline in the world to order the 787 in the 1st 2 years?
I don't think so.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 17):
Where does LH want to fly this plane to that they need 1.000nm and even 2.000nm more?
The A358 has an AIRBUS stated range of 8.800nm, the A359 a tad shorter with 7.500nm
(Numbers straight from the company website....unless they are bogus?

What gives?

From Frankfurt 8.800 excludes New Zealand and the West Coast of Australia.
7.500 blanks out all of Australia and South Pacific and much of Antartica....
So where are they planning on flying these birds?

Unless it is saber rattling.

Lufthansa should just shut up and by some 77Ws, that's what they really want right?
It is this reality that tells me it is a political thing unfortunately...cause an aircraft out there exists, its just that their preferred vendor doesn't build it.

So true... As much as I'd love to see LH downunder, there is no need for them to do so as NZ is their *A partner in this part of the world, or they can change over to SQ or TG on the way down.

Other airlines are happy with it. I think LH is just moaning because they were hanging out for the A350 and missed good early slots on the 787. In the mean time as said by others they should get some 772LR's if they really need such a big range!
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CRJ900
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 10:52 pm

I find it amusing that LH seem to do the opposite of what so many armchair CEO's here on Airliners.net regard as wise and good decisions:

1) They operate nearly 40 x A340 (My Gawd, how screwed can one be??!!!!)  Yeah sure

2) They fly 60+ CRJs and have ordered 12 x CRJ900 (WTF were they thinking??!!)  Yeah sure

3) They have no plans of putting PTVs in Y-class for at least two more years (Now that just takes the cake, I'm so NOT flying on this airline!!)  Yeah sure

4) Most employees are unionized...? (Yeah, just let the greedy FAs drive the company to the ground with their unrealistic pay requests. They should pay the company instead!!)  Yeah sure

And yet they are one of the largest and most profitable carriers around and they have an overall great reputation.

I'm almost inclined to think that the LH management knows more about running an airline than we A.netters do... How dare they!  Wink
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wingman
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 11:38 pm

Don't forget though, this is the one major airline in the industrialized world that suffers virtually zero competition on it's home turf. I can't recall the exact figure but I believe LH controls 90%+ of O/D traffic out of Germany. AF is next with a substantially lower share of its home market. LH is a well-run and profitable company to be sure but they are not truly tested by competition. Again, I would place them on my Top 5 all-time list of best airlines (they certainly haven't rested on their laurels) but I think their reaction to Ryanair's entrance to the German market is evidence enough that they are terrified of real competition.
 
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Tue May 09, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Wingman (Reply 38):
Don't forget though, this is the one major airline in the industrialized world that suffers virtually zero competition on it's home turf.

Try telling that to Ryanair, DBA, Air Berlin, or HLX  Wink . LH is receiving some healthy competition these days, particularly at MUC, their second hub and DBA's main base.
 
Johnny
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 12:03 am

@Wingman

Sorry to say that, but it is a little bit old fashined thinking that the home market of LH is Germany.
The home-market for BA,LH, and AF is EUROPE today.This is where the competition comes from.
Pls forget that old country-thinking, when you talk about european carriers...

Johnny

[Edited 2006-05-09 17:04:02]
 
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Revelation
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
LH is private and politics has no influence on them.

LH is private, and like all airlines, politics has an influence on them, because politicians usually control airports, airspace, corporate regulations, etc.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 33):
Maintenance people will have sleepless nights once they have to figure out how to repair this plane on structural dammage.

They will have time to catch up on their sleep because many impacts that will dent or puncture metal fuselages will just be absorbed by the new composite fuselages. Also, if they are competent mechanics, they will be able to learn composite repair procedures without loosing sleep.
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ScottB
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 37):
And yet they are one of the largest and most profitable carriers around and they have an overall great reputation.

One of the largest, yes, but most profitable, not exactly. In 2005, the operating profit of Lufthansa Group's Passenger Transportation business segment was 135 million euro. By comparison, Southwest Airlines made $820 million in operating profits for the year, or roughly 4.5 to 5 times Lufthansa's Passenger Transportation business segment number (dependent on exchange rate; I used $1.30 = 1 euro).

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 37):
I'm almost inclined to think that the LH management knows more about running an airline than we A.netters do... How dare they!

Would you have said the same about Swissair, Sabena, Olympic, Pan Am, Eastern, PeoplExpress, etc.?

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 22):
Second, LH have always ordered what suited their needs - if you check their order history you may realize that certain Boeing products didn't exist when LH placed an order.

Yes, but I think the history of the past two decades shows that Lufthansa will order Airbus unless Airbus has no product in the relevant market segment.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 22):
And even if it were an issue - probably they wouldn't moan after taking into consideration all the costs for replacing an entire A340 fleet? Is it so hard to realize LH's decision to order the A346 was just a logic one?

It does not seem that LH felt compelled to replace its entire 737 fleet immediately upon choosing Airbus narrowbodies, so it's not clear to me why they'd have to immediately replace the A340's they have, had they chosen to order 777's. AF seems to be perfectly able to run both types in the fleet. I suspect their decision might have come out differently had they run the numbers with crude prices in the $70-100/bbl range.

In any event, even privatized companies are subject to political influences; it helps to stay on good terms with the government in order to curry political favor, after all.
 
FLALEFTY
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 3:22 am

With a nice, young fleet of A340s, LH is not in any hurry.

If LH is patient and persistent with BA and Airbus, they will get a fleet of 787s or A350s built exactly to their specs at a good price.
 
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
Actually it does. LH didn't buy the A340s out of political reasons (well, perhaps they did before they got privatised), it is because that's the aircraft type that suits their needs (and perhaps also because fuel prices were low back then, which didn't make the fuel burn advantage twins have over quads that evident). If LH however would have to make the order today, they would surely be evaluating things and it would be a hard decision.

So even if fuel was @ $1 per barrel, it would still be wiser to operate a more fuel-efficient aircraft. The only way I were to choose differently is if I had some affiliation with an oil firm where my stock would be directly affected by the oil firm's stock.
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 4):
I think you are dead right here. LH does not like the A350. I am sure they will never order the 787 for political reasons.



Quoting CargairMax50 (Reply 9):
Lufthansa is German. Airbus is made of a European Consortium. Germany is part of this consortium as some Airbus planes are built in Germany. That's the political issue.

I am sick and tired of this argument resurfacing on this forum every so often when time and again it has been proven false. Everyone said that AF would never order the 777 given France's role in Airbus. Of course, that didn't stop AF from ordering the 772 or the 77W.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 42):
Would you have said the same about Swissair, Sabena, Olympic, Pan Am, Eastern, PeoplExpress, etc.?

Oh please, that's a false analogy and you know it. CRJ900 was speaking about a profitable, stable airline not a basket case. Clearly, a management team that is able to produce consistent profits, as LH's is able to do, is one that knows what it is doing and one that has little in common with the management of the airlines you mentioned.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 37):

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PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 4:53 am

I haven't read all the contributions here, but the same FOCUS article said that the A380's final assembly is in Hamburg XFW.

FOCUS is not a bad magazine, I read it every Monday, but their aviation editor should check the yellow pages before he writes articles such as trhe one which was quoted here.
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LTU932
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
LH is private, and like all airlines, politics has an influence on them, because politicians usually control airports, airspace, corporate regulations, etc.

Perhaps, but as far as aircraft orders go, nobody can persuade them to buy anything except for Airbus, Boeing, or others.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 25):
however, creating a new fleet, and then that small, is not a viable solution. also, Airbus gave LH a very good deal on those 7 A346s.

That's what I was talking about actually.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 38):
Don't forget though, this is the one major airline in the industrialized world that suffers virtually zero competition on it's home turf.

Are you joking?

Quoting Wingman (Reply 38):
I can't recall the exact figure but I believe LH controls 90%+ of O/D traffic out of Germany.

No way...

Quoting Wingman (Reply 38):
LH is a well-run and profitable company to be sure but they are not truly tested by competition.

It seems you're talking about another Germany...

Quoting Wingman (Reply 38):
I think their reaction to Ryanair's entrance to the German market is evidence enough that they are terrified of real competition.

FR did not start flights to and from Germany just yesterday.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 42):
Yes, but I think the history of the past two decades shows that Lufthansa will order Airbus unless Airbus has no product in the relevant market segment.

Let's see - LH chose the A320 family over B737 classics, then they chose the A340 when the B777 simply wasn't available yet. Doesn't sound like a "we order Airbus because it's an Airbus-strategy" - they order what's most suitable.


PH
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A342
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RE: Lufthansa Not Satisfied With A350 And 787

Wed May 10, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 46):
the same FOCUS article said that the A380's final assembly is in Hamburg XFW.

This is wrong. Final assembly is in TLS. However, installing cabin interiors and painting is done in XFW.
Exceptions confirm the rule.

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