NW757MSP
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Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 2:10 pm

Why does southwest not serve MSP. I beleive if they did they would ring in some big money now that ATA pulled out. I think Humphery terminal would be a great spot for them to start.
 
VC10DC10
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 2:13 pm

One word: Northwest.
 
NW757MSP
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 2:13 pm

also as i was looking around i saw this

AirTran

Lindberg Terminal
Gates E1 and E3

Humphrey Terminal
Gates H9 and H10 (starting
May 18)


are they keeping service at Lindberg or pulling out fully?
 
NW757MSP
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 2:19 pm

Quote:
One word: Northwest.

exactly why they go to humphery...i live in the minneapolis st. paul area. And trust me people dont live off of northwest and half of they people dont even like them
 
pilottim747
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting NW757MSP (Reply 3):
exactly why they go to humphery...i live in the minneapolis st. paul area. And trust me people dont live off of northwest and half of they people dont even like them

There aren't any gates at the Humphrey for WN. As it is now I think it'll be a tight squeeze this next winter charter season.

Even over at the Lindbergh Terminal there aren't many free gates open.

pilottim747
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 4:08 pm

I think the answer is fairly obvious...look at the WN route map; notice any glaring absences?

Such as:
DFW
ORD
MSP
EWR
ATL
IAH

Traditionally, Southwest has avoided megahubs such as those listed above. There are obviously exceptions to this (DTW and the recent additions of DEN and PHL for instance), but for the most part, they've elected to use secondary airports whenever possible. I wouldn't count on seeing them in MSP anytime soon (barring the liquidation of a certain Minnesota based carrier).
 
aviatortj
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting NW757MSP (Thread starter):
I beleive if they did they would ring in some big money now that ATA pulled out.

airTran is picking up where ATA left off. People who now fly the route probably feel like they are riding in first class. Hopefully, our friends at airTran can keep it together and bring a little something extra to the table besides MDW, ATL, and MCO.

Quoting NW757MSP (Reply 3):
And trust me people dont live off of northwest and half of they people dont even like them

Everybody in Minnesota hates NWA....until they are the cheapest fare out of town.*

*Excluding me. It's not worth the risk.

[Edited 2006-05-09 09:17:20]
 
WN57787
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 5:06 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 5):
I think the answer is fairly obvious...look at the WN route map; notice any glaring absences?

Such as:
DFW
ORD
MSP
EWR
ATL
IAH

WN has Sirvice in MDW not ORD and DAL not DFW also HOU not IAH
Code-Share with TZ out of DFW.

Give WN time Thay are Only Turning 35yrs of Service this year.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 5:10 pm

Quoting WN57787 (Reply 7):

WN has Sirvice in MDW not ORD and DAL not DFW also HOU not IAH

Yes. I addressed this.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 5):
they've elected to use secondary airports whenever possible.

This use of airport codes instead of city names is really starting to become a problem... Wink
 
VC10DC10
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 5:33 pm

Another reason Southwest isn't rushing into MSP is that the Twin Cities market already has a fair bit of low-cost service entrenched:

Frontier to Denver & points beyond
Midwest Express to Milwaukee & points beyond
AirTran to Chicago & points beyond (frequent service)
Sun Country to Lord knows where...

Plus, Northwest has historically shown itself to be an extremely fierce competitor. A famous example from the 1990s was Reno Air's flight to MSP from RNO; while it originally was profitable for them, Northwest started operating this route and put lots of capacity on it at ridiculous fares to keep Reno Air out of the Twin Cities market. Similar attempts were made, with varying degrees of success, when Sun Country started scheduled service. It's been assumed by many, I think, that Northwest will do this again if another low-cost carrier makes a major attempt to seize more of the Twin Cities market. Just my $.02.
 
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BNE
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 7:55 pm

Southwest had their chance when ATA was flying to MSP. I guess it wasn't working out that well. So Airtran moved in.

Is it possible that MSP is not well located for operations for Southwest.
WN focuses on short haul and likes to have a city in reach of a few destinations. MSP doesn't really suit as MDW and OMA are the only close cities.
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 11:44 pm

Thinking specifically about the MSP-MDW market (which WN would surely serve if they start MSP), I wonder if this is a situation where the 737 is a little too big for the route. TZ's 738s (175 seats) were one of their problems, I think. NW and UA are always going to be able to offer more frequency, at least at ORD, because of the smaller planes they have. Of course, WN has made MDW-DTW work in a similar competitive situation.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
AirRyan
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Tue May 09, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 9):
Plus, Northwest has historically shown itself to be an extremely fierce competitor. A famous example from the 1990s was Reno Air's flight to MSP from RNO; while it originally was profitable for them, Northwest started operating this route and put lots of capacity on it at ridiculous fares to keep Reno Air out of the Twin Cities market.

And NW paid a fine for that as they lost a subsequent lawsuit filed against them by RenoAir. But you know, it's sort of hypocritical to tell the LCC's they are free to file whatever low fare wherever they want, but when a legacy carrier comes in and tries to do it, their being predatory. I guess that's why I got out of pricing - too much hypocrisy and way too much bereaucracy.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:01 am

NW threatens the state of Minnesota everytime a resident or visitor to the state mentions the name "Southwest". "Big Brother will hear you!!" one NW employee told me (off the airport grounds, of course). They publically and continually threaten to pick up and move out of Minnesota completely if the airport authority even considers letting WN fly into MSP.

I have always found it ironic that both AA and NW defend their "fortress" hubs religiously (DFW and MSP), yet both face WN competition at their other hub cities without fanfare. Yes, AA uses ORD and WN uses MDW, but NW and WN both fly out of DTW.

As far as routes go, I'm sure MSP-MDW, MSP-DTW, MSP-STL, MSP-MCI, MSP-OMA, MSP-LAS, MSP-PHX, and MSP-BNA would make a good start for WN if they ever could get into Minnesota.
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ChiGB1973
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
NW threatens the state of Minnesota every time a resident or visitor to the state mentions the name "Southwest". "Big Brother will hear you!!" one NW employee told me (off the airport grounds, of course). They publicly and continually threaten to pick up and move out of Minnesota completely if the airport authority even considers letting WN fly into MSP

This is just ridiculous. If this were the case, WN would move to MSP today. That would be perfect for them. I just wonder, if NW says it publicly, why was it something to say "(off airport grounds, of course)?" He might as well have said it in front of NW's CEO.

M
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
They publically and continually threaten to pick up and move out of Minnesota completely if the airport authority even considers letting WN fly into MSP.

Can you give one occasion where NWA has threatened to leave MSP if the airport authority gave WN the green light or is this just a grand exageration?
 
n808nwatmsp
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
As far as routes go, I'm sure MSP-MDW, MSP-DTW, MSP-STL, MSP-MCI, MSP-OMA, MSP-LAS, MSP-PHX, and MSP-BNA would make a good start for WN if they ever could get into Minnesota.

I agree that all these routes would make a good start for WN at MSP, but many of those routes are already served by other airlines than NW.

MSP-MDW (FL)
MSP-STL (RP)
MSP-LAS (SY)
MSP-PHX (SY)

I am all for WN flying to MSP, but not at the expense of other airlines who are already trying to fight "The Giant." I know that it might increase competition, but to what extent? Doesn't WN aim to flush out the opponents?
 
NW757MSP
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 3:38 am

Quote:
As far as routes go, I'm sure MSP-MDW, MSP-DTW, MSP-STL, MSP-MCI, MSP-OMA, MSP-LAS, MSP-PHX, and MSP-BNA would make a good start for WN if they ever could get into Minnesota.

or even MCO or SEA NW has 6 flights so SEA everyday and each of them are pretty full. ANd 6 flights to LAX i dont know just a thought it would make me happy Big grin
 
ca2ohHP
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:11 am

NW is a non-factor, I don't know why anyone would think WN would avoid a specific city because of some old legacy carrier. Their internal planners and analysts do heaps of research on O&D, fares, facility costs, etc...they don't sit in a boardroom and say, "oh we can't serve MSP, Northwest already flies there...lets serve an airport with zero competition."
PHL had plenty of competition from FL, AA, US, UA and others and that didn't stop WN...why would MSP be any different?
 
Junction
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 18):
NW is a non-factor, I don't know why anyone would think WN would avoid a specific city because of some old legacy carrier. Their internal planners and analysts do heaps of research on O&D, fares, facility costs, etc...they don't sit in a boardroom and say, "oh we can't serve MSP, Northwest already flies there...lets serve an airport with zero competition."
PHL had plenty of competition from FL, AA, US, UA and others and that didn't stop WN...why would MSP be any different?

This brings us back to the original question. Why does WN not serve MSP? They already fly to lots of cities with just as much if not more competition then MSP. There must be a good reason, but who knows what it is?
 
burnsie28
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 6):
Everybody in Minnesota hates NWA....until they are the cheapest fare out of town.*

Thats not true, from what I understand your view is greatly skewed. In fact a lot of people pay more to fly NW because of WorldPerks, and just why does everyone hate NW?

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 6):
*Excluding me. It's not worth the risk.

Whats that suppose to mean?
 
acidradio
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:51 am

NW is ruthlessly protective of it's home market, MSP. They have the market well saturated with direct flights to a lot of places (at one point, you could fly direct from MSP to 46 states! It's now only like 43, but that's still a lot...) and have international coverage. WN is NOT going to get me to NRT, or AMS or LGW. With this level of saturation, it is questionable if there is really any room for anyone else.

MSP is a very commercial market, with lots of Fortune 500 companies based here or with large operations here. Airline service feeds commerce. This is not an industrial-type city, where good rail or sea access is more important in facilitating business. At the end of the day, even in down times, the business traveler wants a plethora of non-stop flights offered by a large network carrier, where they earn frequent flyer miles, have the possibility to be upgraded to F seats and have access to airline lounges and clubs. It never hurts to have reliable international service either.

Business travelers do not flock to low-cost carriers. They may have during the latest economic downturns, but not by their own choice. Business travelers want to be treated as business travelers. Even in times when network carriers are in rough shape and aren't offering as good of service as they have in the past, low-cost carriers aren't set up to offer business travelers exactly what they want. Jim-Bob, who is going to see his Uncle Jed in Phoenix may feel at home on a low-cost carrier, as he maybe flies once every 5 yrs., but William Robert, who basically lives on a plane half the year needs to be afforded all the services, benefits and luxuries of a network carrier.

As the economy rebounds, as it is starting to do, business travelers will demand that their employers pay for network carrier service. When companies start to make more money again, and need to do what it takes to keep their employees happy (especially those who travel a lot for business), they will shell out the money.

Is NW perfect? Not by any means. But they have invested a lot in developing the MSP hub, have been headquartered here for many many years (even though it is cheaper to relocate somewhere else), which in turn has helped develop the commercial market of this region as a whole. At least one survey determined that although ticket costs from the MSP market are slightly higher than the national average, we benefit from much higher-than-average number of direct, non-stop flights to and from this market, which tremendously benefits commerce in the region.

Is this to say that WN is a bad airline? NO! They are very good at what they do. Needless to say, they please their customers and take care of their employees, which has helped them be a profitable and growing company for quite a long time. But is their kind of service the right kind of fit for the MSP market? Probably not. If they thought so, they would be here by now.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
Can you give one occasion where NWA has threatened to leave MSP if the airport authority gave WN the green light or is this just a grand exageration?

Any airline is free to pick up and leave any airport at anytime. And an airport is not accountable to any one airline, nor should it be.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
acidradio
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 22):

Any airline is free to pick up and leave any airport at anytime. And an airport is not accountable to any one airline, nor should it be.

Yes they can. But also keep in mind how much money the state of Minnesota has put into NW in one way or another. There was the whole bailout loan thing in the early 90's. MSP airport is basically built for NW and it's operations. And NW happens to be one of the largest civilian employers in Minnesota, and even put some desperately needed jobs up north (the Res Call Ctr in Hibbing, and at least for a while the Airbus MX base in Duluth). With some of the loans and other programs, I would imagine they are not totally free to just pick up and leave. The State of Minnesota, and indirectly the residents of Minnesota are somewhat of a stakeholder.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
PDXLVR
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 5:32 am

There's no way in heck that NW would leave MSP, and I think the threat (assuming it exists) is BS. One, what city is going to be as good a hub for NW, with the facilities that a mega-hub needs? Two, moving would cost money, which NW does not have.
I left my heart in PDX
 
N908AW
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting PDXLVR (Reply 24):
There's no way in heck that NW would leave MSP, and I think the threat (assuming it exists) is BS. One, what city is going to be as good a hub for NW, with the facilities that a mega-hub needs? Two, moving would cost money, which NW does not have.

Abso- censored -lutely.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 22):
Any airline is free to pick up and leave any airport at anytime. And an airport is not accountable to any one airline, nor should it be.

Just because they're free to doesn't mean they're sanity wouldn't be questioned if they did. They have 85+% of the market and 95% of the gate space, as well as some extreme preferentials by MAC (see: waived landing fees, etc.), they're not just going to ditch that because of a peanut airline flying 25-30 flights a day.

But, for the record, I agree with AcidRadio.

And here's another thing.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
and just why does everyone hate NW?

$$$$$$
Not everybody in MN has WorldPerks.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting PDXLVR (Reply 24):
There's no way in heck that NW would leave MSP,rnand I think the threat (assuming it exists) is BS.

Time for a history lesson.
Back in the late 60's there was this fellow named Donald W. Nyrop.
He ruled NW with an iron fist and swung alot of weight in the MSP area.
The city of either Minneapolis or St. Paul announced, at that time, they were
searching the area for a site for a new airport. Mr. Nyrop blew a gasket and held a news conference and stated IF a new airport was built and the airlines were required to move to it, NW was moving their HQ AND maintenance base to Seattle. He wasn't kidding. He scared the hell of of the municipalities in the area to the extent that a few weeks later, the new site was only a past idea that faded away like cloud.
And that, boys and girls, is a true story.
safe  angel 
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
iowaman
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 9):
Frontier to Denver & points beyond
Midwest Express to Milwaukee & points beyond
AirTran to Chicago & points beyond (frequent service)
Sun Country to Lord knows where...

NW still controls more than 80% of the MSP market. F9, FL, and YX are all a drop in the bucket, and SY isn't really much bigger than UA in MSP.

Quoting BNE (Reply 10):
Is it possible that MSP is not well located for operations for Southwest.
WN focuses on short haul and likes to have a city in reach of a few destinations. MSP doesn't really suit as MDW and OMA are the only close cities.

They do have a lot of "short haul" flights, but there are many long haul flights too. From MSP they can pretty much reach any city in the lower 48 in 3 1/2 hours, a far cry from the 5+ hour PVD/MHT/ISP/BUF/MCO/BWI-LAS flights WN operates non-stop.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Thinking specifically about the MSP-MDW market (which WN would surely serve if they start MSP), I wonder if this is a situation where the 737 is a little too big for the route.

MSP-CHI is a huge market, and they would probably have a lot of connecting traffic in MDW.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
As far as routes go, I'm sure MSP-MDW, MSP-DTW, MSP-STL, MSP-MCI, MSP-OMA, MSP-LAS, MSP-PHX, and MSP-BNA would make a good start for WN if they ever could get into Minnesota.

 checkmark 
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 7:30 am

WN doesn't try to be all things to all people. Not every airline will fly everywhere you want to go.

If you are going from LAX to SEA to you fly NW?
No, not unless you are on a mileage run and feel like flying LAX-MSP-SEA.

We could easily start a thread called "Why No Northwest in LUB?"

There are only so many aircraft to go around, and with the number of places WN is currently trying to build up, there are only so many places it can be at one time. Clearly MSP is not a priority right now, and neither at DTW as evidence by their token presense there.
 
acidradio
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 27):
MSP-CHI is a huge market, and they would probably have a lot of connecting traffic in MDW.

It is a sizeable route, but it has reached a saturation point. NW, AA and UA will always have plenty of service MSP-MDW/ORD. But add a 4th (or 5th player) and they always seem to faulter.

ATA tried to make MSP-MDW work, but was oversaturating an already crowded market with those huge 738's! That and the MDW hub is pushing it. Before them, Vanguard tried, look where they are now. At some point in there, Sun Country tried, but no longer is there. Before that, with much pomp and circumstance, AirTran flew MSP-MDW, and failed. Now they are trying it again. What didn't they learn the last time? That and there is nothing to really connect people to once they get to either MDW or MSP, so they are depending solely on O&D traffic. Good luck.

MSP is a small big city. MSP is a very big small town. It can be a unique market to serve in a few ways (then again, what market isn't?). There is still a lot of brand loyalty to NW, even through everything that has happened in recent times.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
aviatortj
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
In fact a lot of people pay more to fly NW because of WorldPerks[snip]

I'd be willing to bet that more people fly NW on a cheap ticket because they are the lowest price rather than on an expensive ticket because they have WP. Have you any numbers for me? Speaking outside of the a.net bubble, ticket price is the bottom line over brand loyalty.
 
pilottim747
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 29):
ATA tried to make MSP-MDW work, but was oversaturating an already crowded market with those huge 738's! That and the MDW hub is pushing it. Before them, Vanguard tried, look where they are now. At some point in there, Sun Country tried, but no longer is there. Before that, with much pomp and circumstance, AirTran flew MSP-MDW, and failed. Now they are trying it again. What didn't they learn the last time? That and there is nothing to really connect people to once they get to either MDW or MSP, so they are depending solely on O&D traffic. Good luck.

The reason FL backed out of the MSP-MDW market because there was WAY to much competition on that route. ATA, AirTran, Northwest and Vanguard were all flying MSP-MDW at one time (this is besides the airlines flying to ORD). Vanguard backed out, followed by AirTran shortly thereafter.

This time I think things are a little different. It's only AirTran and Northwest on the MSP-MDW route and AirTran DOES have a few connecting flights. From MDW they have connecting flights to ATL, BOS, CLT, DFW, EWR, and MCO (yes, i know they also have non-stops to ATL and MCO from MSP).

After FL entered the MSP-MDW market and put in one-stop/connecting flights to BOS and EWR, the fares to those cities dropped. I don't think rival airlines would drop their MSP-BOS and MSP-EWR fares if they didn't think FL had an opportunity of stealing business from them.

pilottim747
Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
 
supa7E7
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:09 pm

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 21):
NW is ruthlessly protective of it's home market, MSP. They have the market well saturated with direct flights to a lot of places (at one point, you could fly direct from MSP to 46 states! It's now only like 43, but that's still a lot...) and have international coverage. WN is NOT going to get me to NRT, or AMS or LGW. With this level of saturation, it is questionable if there is really any room for anyone else.

Blah, blah. Do you realize WN has more mainline aircraft than Northwest? WN is Northwest's daddy. If you think the MSP market is fully realized today, watch the massive surge in traffic if WN comes in and cuts fares to 10-12 additional cities.

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 30):
Have you any numbers for me? Speaking outside of the a.net bubble, ticket price is the bottom line over brand loyalty.

Nonstop flights are more important than ticket price. NW serves a million destinations from MSP and nobody else (except Sun Country) serves more than about 4. When WN comes into MSP and puts 10-12 destinations up on the board, people will go nuts, making WN an instant #2 in MSP.

It's weird we are still speculating about this in 2006, since it should have already happened.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
roadrunner165
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:25 pm

 
burnsie28
Posts: 5040
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting N908AW (Reply 25):
$$$$$$
Not everybody in MN has WorldPerks.

Weak argument, MSP has plenty of competition, including low fare carriers. I still find a lot of normal priced tickets.

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 30):
Have you any numbers for me? Speaking outside of the a.net bubble, ticket price is the bottom line over brand loyalty.

From what I understand you wont fly NW, you'll drive to FAR to fly United on their fancy CRJ even when NW is cheaper out of GFK or FAR with mainline aircraft.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 32):
When WN comes into MSP and puts 10-12 destinations up on the board, people will go nuts, making WN an instant #2 in MSP

Perhaps, but people sure didnt go nuts when Frontier flew MSP-LAX, a 14% average load factor really showed that everyone sure went nuts!

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 33):
Why does everyone in Minnesota hate NWA?

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...fox-a

Yet, NW is one of the largest civilian employers in Minnesota, and lets not forget, MSP wouldnt be what it is today without them. Also, NW puts more money into their airports then just about any airline. All the new terminals and such are being paid for by NW.
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 32):
watch the massive surge in traffic if WN comes in and cuts fares to 10-12 additional cities.

I can see both ways. It could end up like DTW, where there is such a NW FF base and NW matches WN fares that WN doesn't have a huge operation out of DTW.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 34):
MSP has plenty of competition

In comparison to a lot of airports MSP lacks LCC competition.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 34):
Perhaps, but people sure didnt go nuts when Frontier flew MSP-LAX, a 14% average load factor really showed that everyone sure went nuts!

I think part of the problem with MSP-LAX was no one on either side knew it exsisted, and of course NW has connecting traffic, FF on the MSP side, and probably just as good of fares.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 34):
All the new terminals and such are being paid for by NW.

If I remember correctly, they were behind on some payments to the MAC, whether it was terminals or landing fees I don't know.
 
texan
Posts: 4060
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Wed May 10, 2006 11:54 pm

MSP is being strongly considered. Likely not announced this year, stronger possibility of an announcement next year. There are a few cities ahead of MSP on the list, and MSP is by no means cut in stone, but it is being considered for future expansion.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
ca2ohHP
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:14 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 1:21 am

So I guess MSP and CLT are so far off....everyone said B6 would never get gate space at CLT. You people are talking like MSP is some high-class only airport that is only willing to cater to 1 airline. Well there may be many fortune 500 companies based in MSP, but I would LOVE to see a source stating that there is this huge demand for international service out of MSP. The only reason it does so well is because it's a connecting point for those:

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 21):
at one point, you could fly direct from MSP to 46 states! It's now only like 43, but that's still a lot



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 34):
Weak argument, MSP has plenty of competition

.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 27):
NW still controls more than 80% of the MSP market. F9, FL, and YX are all a drop in the bucket, and SY isn't really much bigger than UA in MSP.

So 20% is the competition? I think 20% is weak, not the argument.
 
roadrunner165
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2000 6:28 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 34):
Yet, NW is one of the largest civilian employers in Minnesota, and lets not forget, MSP wouldnt be what it is today without them. Also, NW puts more money into their airports then just about any airline. All the new terminals and such are being paid for by NW.

-opinion-
How many times has Northwest screwed the state and its citizens? Did you read the report I posted? Yes I agree, they have done some good, but people are only going to remember the bad stuff. They have done a very crappy job with their public relations here in the state of Minnesota.
I guess the real problem is how they portray themselves. I don't care what good stuff they did for the state 15 or 20 years ago. I want to know what they are doing for the state and its citizens today.

-Are they still going to be paying for their new terminals after they emerge from bankruptcy?

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 37):
You people are talking like MSP is some high-class only airport that is only willing to cater to 1 airline.


No, MAC is only willing to cater to NWA and its partners; that means they cater to three or four airlines.  SmileMaybe things have changed in the year I have been out of the state, but NWA always had MAC wrapped around its fingers.



Adam
 
texan
Posts: 4060
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RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 37):
So I guess MSP and CLT are so far off....everyone said B6 would never get gate space at CLT.

Which is funny, since CLT has said that if WN wants to move in tomorrow the airport will find them gate space  Smile

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 21):
At the end of the day, even in down times, the business traveler wants a plethora of non-stop flights offered by a large network carrier, where they earn frequent flyer miles, have the possibility to be upgraded to F seats and have access to airline lounges and clubs. It never hurts to have reliable international service either.

Business travelers do not flock to low-cost carriers. They may have during the latest economic downturns, but not by their own choice. Business travelers want to be treated as business travelers. Even in times when network carriers are in rough shape and aren't offering as good of service as they have in the past, low-cost carriers aren't set up to offer business travelers exactly what they want. Jim-Bob, who is going to see his Uncle Jed in Phoenix may feel at home on a low-cost carrier, as he maybe flies once every 5 yrs., but William Robert, who basically lives on a plane half the year needs to be afforded all the services, benefits and luxuries of a network carrier.

Did you know that Southwest started out as 3 planes with no first class and no assigned seats, but did offer hourly flights between Dallas and Houston? Know who flew them? It wasn't Jim-Bob. These days, the operate flights on the half hour on that route. Business travellers make up the BULK of Southwest's business. No other airline sells more "full fare unrestricted" tickets than Southwest...those are tickets that are usually bought by businessmen. I used to Fly SWA twice a week from MCI to STL and back in the same day. Lots of "suits". Also had to go to Chicago several times. You know what this businessman preferred over an airport club or first class upgrade? I wanted to get home. I didn't want to hang at an airport for 3 hours waiting for the 7:30 flight home, especially when the "low cost carrier" had 3 flights departing before the "real" airline had one. That frequency of flights was far more desireable than upgrades and airport clubs. THAT is what business travellers want, and anyone who thinks differently is just in love with a frequent flyer program.
 
aviatortj
Posts: 1694
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:15 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 34):
From what I understand you wont fly NW, you'll drive to FAR to fly United on their fancy CRJ even when NW is cheaper out of GFK or FAR with mainline aircraft.

I quoted the part you missed underneath here. Try as you might to prove it, but the general public does not choose its plane tickets like the people on this site do. Some of us care about how we get to our destination.

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 30):
Speaking outside of the a.net bubble




Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 32):
Nonstop flights are more important than ticket price.

This reason, coupled with prices, is why people fly NWA from MSP. They think they are getting a deal when they can fly non-stop on $259 over one connection at $275.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11508
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 39):
Which is funny, since CLT has said that if WN wants to move in tomorrow the airport will find them gate space

There's plenty of gate space, but it's all international. Why would WN pay for that?

Quoting Pilottim747 (Reply 31):
It's only AirTran and Northwest on the MSP-MDW route and AirTran DOES have a few connecting flights. From MDW they have connecting flights to ATL, BOS, CLT, DFW, EWR, and MCO (yes, i know they also have non-stops to ATL and MCO from MSP).

Here's the problem WN faces on this CHI-MSP route. First, it's by far the most logical route from MSP if WN opens MSP. MSP-OMA doesn't have a lot of traffic. MSP-DTW will probably not happen (DTW isn't a big enough station to make going up against NW worth it). MSP-MDW will be the premiere short haul route from MSP.

WN will suffer a yield disadvantage on the route. First, WN will not be able to offer the kind of frequency offered by UA, AA, and NW. Their aircraft are too large, and business travellers are probably too entrenched on the 3 legacies. Second, looking specifically at FL and WN, FL will enjoy a yield advantage over WN because of their superior service as well as the places to which they are offering connections. Look at the list... ATL, BOS, CLT, EWR... not exactly low fare airports. For WN, FL is the most formidable competitor on this route. They take an LCC business model, and they do it better. Does WN want to mess around with that? I don't think so.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ATAIndy
Posts: 622
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:05 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting BNE (Reply 10):
Is it possible that MSP is not well located for operations for Southwest.

Yes, because MSP is not located in the Southwestern United States. That was a joke everybody, just a joke.

Quoting AviatorTJ (Reply 6):
Everybody in Minnesota hates NWA....until they are the cheapest fare out of town.

Excuse, me. If everybody hates NW then how come they have a mega-hub there that doesn't fold? I may not live in Minnesota, but I'm still a loyal customer to NW , and I would have to guess that you are not.

[Edited 2006-05-11 03:51:47]
Boiler up! - Next flights: IND-MIA, MIA-IND
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 42):
First, WN will not be able to offer the kind of frequency offered by UA, AA, and NW. Their aircraft are too large, and business travellers are probably too entrenched on the 3 legacies.

WN could EASILY offer better frequency. They offer half-hourly flights between Dallas and Houston...They offer hourly flights between Kansas City and Chicago...and they seem to be doing well against the other carriers. Tell you what...if they had hourly flights and NWA had hourly flights, and one was on a plane that was "too large" but offered me significantly more legroom than an RJ, I'm on the plane that's "too large".
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11508
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 44):
Tell you what...if they had hourly flights and NWA had hourly flights, and one was on a plane that was "too large" but offered me significantly more legroom than an RJ, I'm on the plane that's "too large".

Problem is they are not competing against RJs... it's mainline. I also stand by my assertion that FL is the biggest threat to WN on the route.

[Edited 2006-05-11 04:36:21]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
congaboy
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 11:48 am

Not knowing for sure, may I speculate that WN is not at MSP yet because:
1/ The cost model is out of bounds on the high side...I would imagine the MAC will charge standard fees, no discounts.
2/ Any potential market they enter will not provide the yield they look for in the long run...of course you would expect the to offer promo fares, but that would be short term.
3/ They may not have the gate space AT THE TIME THEY NEED IT. They could go to Humphrey, but forget about early morning anything. They typically start a city with multiple destinations, which Humphrey (and certainly Lindbergh) may not handle.
4/ There are other less challenging markets, low hanging fruit if you will, that present themselves ahead of MSP.
"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
 
iowaman
Posts: 3874
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 1:13 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 42):
WN will suffer a yield disadvantage on the route.

WN is the low yield King.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11508
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 47):
WN is the low yield King.

Can you name a city pair where WN competes with 4 other carriers?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
IcelandairMSP
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:50 am

RE: Why No Southwest In MSP?

Thu May 11, 2006 1:22 pm

NW IS NOT THAT BAD. No, seriously. It really isn't. The airline doesn't charge exorbitant prices on every route, by and large customer service is standard and acceptable, and it's so dominant in MSP you can get almost anywhere.

I feel like so many people in here make WN out as this savior with low fares hundreds of dollars lower than NW's greedy prices. If you plan ahead of time, you get a perfectly fair price on NW. Especially if it's a route with competition from a LCC. NW is excellent at generally matching the fares.

Secondly, NW and MSP are completely intertwined and denying that would be ignorant. NW brings a lot of employment and revenue to the twin cities and MSP provides NW with a great, efficient airport in an ideal location for the airline's operations. Their working relationship is great. MSP doesn't necessarily exclude WN, but it's quite true that favoritism exists.

That said, WN isn't necessarily banging down the doors to get into MSP. NW may be in bankrupcy but part of their business plan is holding onto the strong hubs it has. When it hit bankrupcy, the markets that lost capacity were NW's expansionary markets like MKE, IND, and assorted other midwestern metros. They're doing just fine out of MSP and if any airline tries an aggresive move against them, they're still in a strong position to drop prices and get customers back on their planes. WN has generally preyed on airlines that have spread themselves too thin and put less priority on fortifying hubs (Like PHL and PIT) and markets where the resident airlines wouldn't return the aggression to the point that WN would actually have to concentrate disproportionate resources and fight with low loads and yields before gaining a market share. They're earning a profit with the model and network they've got and trying to enter a market where they could certainly lose a lot of money for a certain while would just be wasteful. If NW lets their guard down and opens up too much capacity at MSP, you can bet WN will have their opportunity. But for now, fighting for a large share of MSP just isn't as big of a priority.

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