WINGS
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Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 5:45 pm

What do we know about the proposed A350/A370?

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...anges+to+fuselage%2c+wing+and.html

The new family is expected to comprise three versions, the A350-800, -900 and -1000.

One more than originally planned. Most likely to replace A346 and take on the B773 and B748i

Key design changes from the earlier A350 include a wider fuselage cross-section.

A350 (6.69m)
B777 (6.19m)
B787 (5.74m)

The new fuselage, although close to the 777 diameter with the addition of around 500mm (19in), is expected to retain the same materials technology as the original A350.

The new A350 still retains an Al Li fuselage structure. (we still have now word on the percentage of composites being used.)

It is understood that the common cross-section is likely to be adopted over an alternative study that favoured retaining the original diameter for the smaller -800/900 and increasing it for the -1000.

What will happen to the original A300/310/330/340 fuselage?

Larger all-composite wing, higher Mach 0.85 cruise speed.

Still retaining use of composites although with a larger wing and increase in speed in regards to the previous A350.

Engines in the 85,000-90,000lb (380-400kN) thrust class.

This has also been increased from the previous target of (63,000-75,000)

Under the original A350 plan, Airbus expected to put the first aircraft into service in late 2010. Under the revised schedule, first delivery is expected to be no earlier than 2012.

How will current A350 customers react? Does this spell another breath of life into the A330 program?

The new plan would call for the introduction of the -900 first, with the -800 following and the -1000 coming last in late 2013 or early 2014.

This has also changed. With the original A350, the -800 was to be introduced first followed by the -900. What possible reasons would Airbus have to introduce the A350-900 first?

What other major facts do we know so far in regards to the new A350?


Regards,
Wings

[Edited 2006-05-09 10:45:42]
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
Oykie
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 5:59 pm

Hi Wings. This is a very informative way of starting a new thread. I always enjoys to read your threads  Smile

There is an interesting article about this in ATWonline today.

Quote:
The redesign comes after Emirates shipped a row of its triple seats to Toulouse where they did not fit into the A350 mockup.

The revised A350 also will feature a larger, all-new composite wing but not a composite fuselage.

The revamped design's entry into service now is supposed to slip into the second half of 2012, but insiders at Emirates told ATWOnline they are skeptical of that date. There is some possibility that Airbus may stick with the current A350-800 design so as to meet orders on hand, but the majority view in Toulouse is to scrap it.

There also is some thought that the A350-1000, which requires a 100,000-lb.-thrust engine, could be a quadjet if a suitable engine isn't available. Production of the new model apparently is slated for Hamburg rather than Toulouse.

Analysts suggest that while the revised A350 will be more competitive, the reluctance to tackle a composite fuselage leaves Airbus exposed.

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=4991
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 6:56 pm

We know that Airbus are looking at several options and shopping them around to the airlines -- both those that have already ordered the A350 and those that have not yet chosen between the A350 and the B787. We expect that Airbus will make a decision by and an announement at Farnborough.
 
Johnny
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 7:01 pm

Hi Wings,

that is a good idea to start a thread about what we all REALLY KNOW, not what we assume or what could be possible for us.

One small correction about the cross-section of the A350 - there is a typo in your post -it is somewhere in between the B777s and B787s cross-section.

Johnny  Smile
 
WINGS
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 7:11 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 1):
Hi Wings. This is a very informative way of starting a new thread. I always enjoys to read your threads Smile



Quoting Johnny (Reply 3):
Hi Wings,

that is a good idea to start a thread about what we all REALLY KNOW, not what we assume or what could be possible for us.

Thanks for the kind words.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 3):
One small correction about the cross-section of the A350 - there is a typo in your post -it is somewhere in between the B777s and B787s cross-section.

The new fuselage, although close to the 777 diameter with the addition of around 500mm (19in)

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...anges+to+fuselage%2c+wing+and.html

Well from the statement above I get the impresion that the new A350 will in fact be greater than that of the B777. It will have increse of 50cm (19 inches)

Feel free to correct me if this is not the case Johnny  Smile

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
Johnny
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 7:16 pm

Hi Wings,

I think in the article they mean 50cm more than the A350 had and close to the B777s diameter.

But maybe i am wrong.

 Smile
 
WINGS
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 7:19 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 5):
Hi Wings,

I think in the article they mean 50cm more than the A350 had and close to the B777s diameter.

But maybe i am wrong.

Good Point Johnny, The article can be interpreted in various ways.

Anyone care to explain?

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
Glom
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 7:21 pm

In one swoop, the entire Airbus philosophy has been thrown out, burned, compacted and blasted off into the Sun.

Seating
This aircraft will be a true 10-abreaster. The likelihood of anyone putting in 9 abreast is incredibly small. So bye bye to the whole 2-4-2 and nothing else dealy. Hopefully the larger cross section will also mean that they'll be able to put crew rest areas in the crown space rather than in the hold taking up revenue cargo space or a little spider hole below the cockpit ("Hello, I'm president of Iraq.")

Engines
SRB is going to be annoyed. He just had his marketting campaign cut off at the knees. Airbus is now officially a 2 good 2 need 4 engines manufacturer.

Commonality vs optimisation
They've dumped the whole idea that commonality is the only way and made dramatic shifts in the interests of optimisation.

Flying pencils
No more trying to make the aspect ratio of the fuselage as skinny as possible.

Strategy
They've actually got one! They haven't had one since 1992!
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting Glom (Reply 7):
Commonality vs optimisation
They've dumped the whole idea that commonality is the only way and made dramatic shifts in the interests of optimisation.

Not sure about this. The 777 and 787 have a high degree of commonality in the cockpit. I expect the this new twin to have the same cockpit as the currrent A350 design, ie that of the A380, which should allow a four day transition from A330/340 rating to this new aircraft. As for maintance commonality, its hardto know. The current A350 design only shares 3% parts with the A330 anyway.

....So it looke like Airbus will be taking on both the 787 and Y3 with one single aircraft.

I wonder about the engines. Can the Trent or Genx even go up to 90000lb? Or will Airbus be forced to look at the GE-90 for the largest model. Or maybe even 4 Genx/Trent on the -1000 model.
 
brendows
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):

The new family is expected to comprise three versions, the A350-800, -900 and -1000.

One more than originally planned. Most likely to replace A346 and take on the B773 and B748i

No, not really. In the beginning, when the A350 was launched, Airbus talked about a larger, beefed up A350, called the A350-1000, which would be the real 772ER-killer. After that, there haven't been much more information about it.

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):

Key design changes from the earlier A350 include a wider fuselage cross-section.

A350 (6.69m)
B777 (6.19m)
B787 (5.74m)

The new fuselage, although close to the 777 diameter with the addition of around 500mm (19in), is expected to retain the same materials technology as the original A350.

Like Johnny, I interpreted it that it would be 19in wider than the current cross section on the A350.

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):

It is understood that the common cross-section is likely to be adopted over an alternative study that favoured retaining the original diameter for the smaller -800/900 and increasing it for the -1000.

I'm not totally sure, but I understood in such a way that the entire series would get the new cross section. But, what happens to the A358 then? Could be in danger of having a much higher CASM compared to its larger siblings, just like the proposed, and axed, 777-100X? Just think of it, how can an aircraft that's in a family of aircraft sized to compete against the 772ER and 77W, compete against the much smaller 787? Shorter versions will never the best sellers.

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):

Engines in the 85,000-90,000lb (380-400kN) thrust class.

This has also been increased from the previous target of (63,000-75,000)

If the A350-1000 is going to compete against the 77W, and use engines at 90klb thrust, its MTOW would have to be something like 100klb lower than the MTOW of the 77W. Otherwise, it would have to use engines with a thrust of about 100+klb each, something the atwonline-article supports. Anyway, even at 85-90klb, that's quite a large increase from the engines the A350 originally was supposed to use (63-75klb)!

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):

Under the original A350 plan, Airbus expected to put the first aircraft into service in late 2010. Under the revised schedule, first delivery is expected to be no earlier than 2012.

Knowing that Airbus set EIS for the A358 to late 2010 when they launched the project at the end of 2004 (six years from project launch to EIS!,) I'm having a hard time believing that EIS for such a radically new version of the A350 can be anything earlier than 2012.
 
Thorben
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 11:40 pm

Speaking of the cabin, my interpretation also was that it will be 50cm wider than the fuselage Airbus has been using for so long, not 50cm wider than the 777.

The original A350 was supposed to have

fuselage: 564 cm
cabin: 532 cm

which is interesting, because the A300, A340 etc. had a cabin width of 528cm with the same fuselage diameter. Obviously Airbus found a way to save 2 cm on each side.

The new A350 is supposed to be 50 cm wider, which would correspond to a fuselage of 614 cm and a cabin of 582 cm. For a comparison, the 777 has 619/587 cm, the 787 has 575/544

New A350 would allow nine abreast or even ten. The 2-4-2 is actually the best out there, but 3-3-3 hasn't hurt the T7 too much, it appears. I can only hope that airlines will use it in the 2-4-3 configuration.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
TP313
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 11:42 pm

Hi, Wings!

Great thread!

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
The new plan would call for the introduction of the -900 first, with the -800 following and the -1000 coming last in late 2013 or early 2014.
This has also changed. With the original A350, the -800 was to be introduced first followed by the -900. What possible reasons would Airbus have to introduce the A350-900 first?

IMHO this has to do with the fact that the -800 was supposed to be the baseline model according to the earlier plan.
Not anymore, this is a whole new plane that conceptualy is more of a "777 light", and the baseline model is the -900, so this will come out first.
For some reason Airbus is again requiring that all its widebody single-deck aircraft share
the same cross-section, which is why I think they couldn't go for a wider fuselage than the 777.
Brendows adresses this point:

Quoting Brendows (Reply 9):
I'm not totally sure, but I understood in such a way that the entire series would get the new cross section. But, what happens to the A358 then? Could be in danger of having a much higher CASM compared to its larger siblings, just like the proposed, and axed, 777-100X? Just think of it, how can an aircraft that's in a family of aircraft sized to compete against the 772ER and 77W, compete against the much smaller 787?

In my opinion Airbus was more concerned in defining a cross section width
that would provide a good compromise in structural efficiency for lengths from
57 m to 75 m, than with the dilema of being or not being able to acommodate
10-abreast. If they succeed is a different question...

I would also like to remark that the A370 designation made sense if there
were to be 2 fuselage cross-sections. As things stand I think this aircraft
will indeed be called A350.

[Edited 2006-05-09 16:44:48]

[Edited 2006-05-09 16:45:24]

[Edited 2006-05-09 16:50:27]
 
SNATH
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
A350 (6.69m)
B777 (6.19m)
B787 (5.74m)

If these measurements are correct, I take it the A350/A370 will be 10-abreast?

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
amirs
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Tue May 09, 2006 11:58 pm

So is this new a/c going to be called the A370?
What will happen with customers who are suppose to get a/c in 2010?
Will the cabin pressure in the new A350 be 8,000 ft or like in the 787 around 6,000 ft.
Will the new A350 have larger windows like the B787?
In which way will customers benefit from this new A350?
 
WINGS
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 12):
Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
A350 (6.69m)
B777 (6.19m)
B787 (5.74m)

If these measurements are correct, I take it the A350/A370 will be 10-abreast?

Hi SNATH,

There seems to be quite some confusion interpreting the flight International article regarding the size of the fuselage width. At first I thought that it would in fact be 6.69m, although JOHNNY pointed out in Reply 3 that the increase of 50cm may be from the original A350 fuselage and not that of the B777. If that's the case than we have the following,

A350 (6.14m)
B777 (6.19m)


The article states the following:

The new fuselage, although close to the 777 diameter with the addition of around 500mm (19in), is expected to retain the same materials technology as the original A350. The move to the larger twin concept also means the formal abandonment of Airbus's fundamental belief in its long-range four-engined policy.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...anges+to+fuselage%2c+wing+and.html

As you can see it's rather misleading. I'm eagerly waiting for some one to provide further information in regards to the fuselage diameter.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
Zeus419
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:12 am

>> The new fuselage, although close to the 777 diameter with the addition of around 500mm (19in) <<

reads:-

The new fuselage with the addition of around 500mm (19in) over the original A350 proposal, although close to the 777 diameter . . .
 
TP313
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 13):
So is this new a/c going to be called the A370?

Unlikely, see my post above.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 13):
What will happen with customers who are suppose to get a/c in 2010?

In a "word": A330

Quoting Amirs (Reply 13):
Will the cabin pressure in the new A350 be 8,000 ft or like in the 787 around 6,000 ft?

Most likely it will be what was projected for the "old" 350.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 13):
Will the new A350 have larger windows like the B787?

Who cares...

Quoting Amirs (Reply 13):
In which way will customers benefit from this new A350?

More capacity, more speed, most likely more range and, maybe, increased percentage of composites and light alloys which means less weight.
 
WINGS
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Zeus419 (Reply 15):
>> The new fuselage, although close to the 777 diameter with the addition of around 500mm (19in) <<

reads:-

The new fuselage with the addition of around 500mm (19in) over the original A350 proposal, although close to the 777 diameter . . .

Sorry Zeus419, but I don't follow you.

Is this what you think that should have written?

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
timboflier215
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 17):
Is this what you think that should have written?

Zeus419 has changed the word order around to make the point clearer. It does seem like aribus added 50cm to the A350 fuselage, and are not making the fuselage 50cm wider than the 777.

Quoting Glom (Reply 7):
In one swoop, the entire Airbus philosophy has been thrown out, burned, compacted and blasted off into the Sun.

And about time too! Any company which sticks to an out-dated marketing philosophy merely because they are afraid of losing face are not going to be in business for very long! As for SRB, he has plenty of time to come with a new and equally meaningless marketing slogan!!
 
11Bravo
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting TP313 (Reply 16):
In a "word": A330

That may be true for some. For others, two additional words might be useful:

Cancelled Order
WhaleJets Rule!
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 7):
Seating
This aircraft will be a true 10-abreaster. The likelihood of anyone putting in 9 abreast is incredibly small. So bye bye to the whole 2-4-2 and nothing else dealy. Hopefully the larger cross section will also mean that they'll be able to put crew rest areas in the crown space rather than in the hold taking up revenue cargo space or a little spider hole below the cockpit ("Hello, I'm president of Iraq.")

As others have mentioned, this aircraft will be slightly narrower than the 777, so it will be 9 abreast, with maybe the option of 10 abreast.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 8):
....So it looke like Airbus will be taking on both the 787 and Y3 with one single aircraft.

Any Y3 would likely be starting off at the size of the -1000 model in this family, unless the 787 sees a -11 stretch. And what Airbus calls it, this family would not compete with the smaller members of the 787 family, except when they are configured in 9 abreast.

Quoting Brendows (Reply 9):
But, what happens to the A358 then? Could be in danger of having a much higher CASM compared to its larger siblings, just like the proposed, and axed, 777-100X? Just think of it, how can an aircraft that's in a family of aircraft sized to compete against the 772ER and 77W, compete against the much smaller 787?

This analogy crossed my mind. The use of lighter materials will facilate some shrinkage in comparison to the 777, but I'm skeptical a Al-Li plane can be taken all the way down to the 250 pax market and remain competitive with the 787-8 in 9 abreast or the 787-9 in 8 abreast. Boeing has far more flexibility to adjust weight and fine tune MTOW with the composite fuselage.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
The new A350 is supposed to be 50 cm wider, which would correspond to a fuselage of 614 cm and a cabin of 582 cm. For a comparison, the 777 has 619/587 cm, the 787 has 575/544

The 787 cabin width is 553cm in widebodyphotog's charts.
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SNATH
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 14):

Ah, OK, thanks for the clarification!

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
killjoy
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 14):
As you can see it's rather misleading. I'm eagerly waiting for some one to provide further information in regards to the fuselage diameter.

It's actually not very misleading. First of all, if it was 50 cm wider than the 777, they wouldn't say it's "close", but rather that it's "much larger". Second, it would be an extremely bad sentence if they really meant 777+50.

Anyway, maybe you should ask a moderator to correct the initial post or it's going to cause confusion throughout the thread.

Quoting Glom (Reply 7):
In one swoop, the entire Airbus philosophy has been thrown out, burned, compacted and blasted off into the Sun.

I don't think it's fair to make fun of old strategies and opinions (on any topic), just because they've changed. I don't mean you specifically, but it seems like something a lot of people enjoy doing as some sort of "I told you so", when shifts in fact most often just imply that things have changed, and not that the old strategy was bad.

Specifically, regarding this:

Quoting Glom (Reply 7):
So bye bye to the whole 2-4-2 and nothing else dealy.

Airbus never said they think 2-4-2 is the only way to build planes; they just said it's more comfortable for passengers. And they're probably right too. But no one's going to design a new fuselage on that concept alone, and choosing another width for a new plane doesn't mean they were wrong.

Quoting Glom (Reply 7):
They've dumped the whole idea that commonality is the only way and made dramatic shifts in the interests of optimisation.

Not necessarily. What airline is going to operate the A340 and A350 side by side for anything more than a transition period? The A350 only needs to have commonality with all three models of itself, which it achieves.
 
Thorben
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 20):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
The new A350 is supposed to be 50 cm wider, which would correspond to a fuselage of 614 cm and a cabin of 582 cm. For a comparison, the 777 has 619/587 cm, the 787 has 575/544

The 787 cabin width is 553cm in widebodyphotog's charts.

Cabin width is hard to find. According to Boeing's own website the fuselage width is 574 cm. Only 21 cm between the outside and the cabin? All other planes have around 30 cm.

Widebody's charts have never been too precise, btw.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Aviator27
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 1:43 am

Which one would I want to fly? B787 or A350? Tough choice if you ask me. Man am I looking forward to these birds taking to the sky. Kudos to Boeing and Airbus for "competing in the marketplace".
 
Ken777
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 8):
....So it looke like Airbus will be taking on both the 787 and Y3 with one single aircraft.

That's going to take a rather hefty set of family jewels . . .  Smile

The most interesting note for me was that the 370 would be built in Germany, not France. Would love to have been a fly on the wall when that decision was made.

Very good news for Airbus - all the best to the teams that get to work on it.
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 8):
....So it looke like Airbus will be taking on both the 787 and Y3 with one single aircraft.

That's going to take a rather hefty set of family jewels . . .

In hindsight, I guess it makes more sense to say Y3 will be taking on the A350.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
The most interesting note for me was that the 370 would be built in Germany, not France. Would love to have been a fly on the wall when that decision was made.

It certainly is interesting, I guess we will find out more over the coming months...
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
Cabin width is hard to find. According to Boeing's own website the fuselage width is 574 cm. Only 21 cm between the outside and the cabin? All other planes have around 30 cm.

Composite fuselage walls are thinner, and Boeing has said late last year that they have found less insulation was needed due to the less heat transfer and sound conduction through the composite fuselage, which allowed them further decrease spacing between the cabin wall and fuselage skin.
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Stratofortress
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:13 am

I thought the fuselage will not be carbon based.
Forever New Frontiers
 
texfly101
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 6:29 am

Well, one thing for sure, A has made the decision to give up the ghost on the A330/A340 family. That gives them free reign to develop whatever the airlines feels will best serve their needs. As ILFC rather pointedly said, give us what we want or we'll go elsewhere. The strategy of selling an aircraft is an iterative process. First you analyze the current needs, design a concept and pitch it to the buyers. Their feedback and willingness to buy will determine whether a proposed design will come to fruition. We saw both the Sonic Cruiser and now the A350 die at the hands of the buyers. And then we saw (and are seeing from this preliminary re-design) the changes that are in direct response to what the buyers say they will buy. B listened to the community who said, lower both the capital cost and the operating cost 20%. The 787 was the result and its now one of the fastest selling commercial aircraft ever. I would say that A is going thru the same pattern. We should see a very able competitor to the 787 and the sales rate will probably be as good. B has always said that they would be happy with a 50% share of the projected 2000-3000 market for the twin aisle twin. That leaves a lot of aircraft for A. To get over the 1000 mark for an aircraft is a definite mark of success. It looks like both makers will exceed that. So debate all the seating arrangements , materials, and engine choices, the buyers have spoken and A and B have listened. Now its on to the single aisle narrow body.
 
Oroka
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:11 pm

Way to go Airbus! I am glad to see them give up the thrown together A350 and really give Boeing something to worry about! I am a Boeing fan, but this is great news for the aviation industry as a whole. Cant wait to see what they come up with... hope it has a shark tail  

[Edited 2006-05-10 05:11:33]

[Edited 2006-05-10 05:12:07]
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 22):
It's actually not very misleading.

I'm glad I wasn't the only who was confused why people were getting confused. Don't get me wrong, this is a great thread. But I don't see how logical thought would allow you to think that FI's article would mean the "new" A350 is going to be 50cm wider than the 777.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
Only 21 cm between the outside and the cabin? All other planes have around 30 cm.

One word: composites.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 23):
Widebody's charts have never been too precise, btw.

Care to cite examples? The technical information he's given has always been spot-on as far as I can tell. Now, when it comes to situational advantages, one can never make an all-encompassing chart. But for statistical accuracy, he's been exemplary.


The one question I have, should this study produce a real aircraft, is where does that leave Airbus's A320 replacement? Surely this means a "Next Generation" vs. an all-new design, as the funds would simply not be available. However, doesn't a larger A350 leave a correspondingly larger hole in the Airbus product line between the A321 and "new" A350-800?

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
dhefty
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting Texfly101 (Reply 29):
We should see a very able competitor to the 787 and the sales rate will probably be as good. B has always said that they would be happy with a 50% share of the projected 2000-3000 market for the twin aisle twin. That leaves a lot of aircraft for A.

So by your reckoning, Boeing will stop taking orders when they get to 50% market share? Dream on. Boeing is going for the throat. They won't have any competition until 2012 with the "new all new" A350. Boeing will have 1000 orders by then.

There is no way that Airbus will get 50%. They are too far behind.

The B787 program is game-changing.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 32):
So by your reckoning, Boeing will stop taking orders when they get to 50% market share? Dream on. Boeing is going for the throat. They won't have any competition until 2012 with the "new all new" A350. Boeing will have 1000 orders by then.

Boeing might have 1000 B787s by 2012, but Airbus would have some A350 orders too.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 32):

There is no way that Airbus will get 50%. They are too far behind.

As of now, Airbus are only about 250 orders behind. If the market size is 3000, that can be made up IF the "new all-new" A350 is as good as we may hope -- despite being late to market.
 
dhefty
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:25 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 33):
As of now, Airbus are only about 250 orders behind. If the market size is 3000, that can be made up IF the "new all-new" A350 is as good as we may hope -- despite being late to market.

I disagree. There are just too many factors in Boeing's favor now. Boeing has a totally new method of manufacturing as well as a huge materials advantage. Unless Airbus develops the same technology, a long-shot at best, they will not be able to compete in the crucial category of weight. Furthermore, the man-hours required for assembly of CFRP fuselages should put Airbus' metal-working at a competitive disadvantage.

Airbus may yet need another "new-new all new" to compete.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 31):
The one question I have, should this study produce a real aircraft, is where does that leave Airbus's A320 replacement? Surely this means a "Next Generation" vs. an all-new design, as the funds would simply not be available. However, doesn't a larger A350 leave a correspondingly larger hole in the Airbus product line between the A321 and "new" A350-800?

That's a really interesting question.

I wonder if A aren't making moves to equalize the capacity across their lineup, by moving the A350 up to fill the hole that was previously between the A340 and the A380, and planning for a slightly larger A320 replacement. They would end up with three families evenly covering the whole gamut of sizes, with no obvious holes, much like Boeing is planning to do.

The B737/A320 replacement game should be interesting to watch. With A's resources tied down, B could have a new opportunity to get a leg up in that end of the market. The thing is, it's a totally different ball game than long-range widebodies... hanging some new engines on an old airframe (warmed-over A320 anyone?) may actually make sense, in a way it never did for the A350.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 32):
The B787 program is game-changing.

 hypnotized  Grrggllll... Gglluuuuhh...  Wink
 
dhefty
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 36):
The B737/A320 replacement game should be interesting to watch. With A's resources tied down, B could have a new opportunity to get a leg up in that end of the market. The thing is, it's a totally different ball game than long-range widebodies... hanging some new engines on an old airframe (warmed-over A320 anyone?) may actually make sense, in a way it never did for the A350.

Airbus got caught flat-footed by the B787 program because of their hubris over the A380. They made a massive miscalculation and now have to live with that decision. It will take years, if not decades, to catch Boeing now.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 36):
Grrggllll... Gglluuuuhh...

Something caught in your throat? Maybe a piece of Al-Li?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:41 pm

I think Airbus should just admit that the A350 is no longer a plane that has commonality with the original A300B fuselage cross-section but pretty much an all-new "clean sheet" design widebody two-engined airliner.

Of course, that means longer development times and higher development costs, and Airbus will be very lucky if they can deliver the first A350's by 2012!
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 37):
It will take years, if not decades, to catch Boeing now.

Maybe a few years, but decades? One of their airplanes is flying today with more pounds of CFRP than will be in a 789. So it seems to me a bit of a stretch to talk about a 10+ year technology deficit.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 37):
Something caught in your throat? Maybe a piece of Al-Li?

 rotfl  Great comeback! *cough* *clink*
 
dhefty
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:57 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 39):
Maybe a few years, but decades?

Once you fall behind in a big way, it does take decades to catch up. For instance many have tried to match or surpass the B747 to no avail. The same will hold true for the B787. Everything is in place - the design, the manufacturing, pricing, performance guarantees, etc. Airbus is still trying to figure out the design. Essentially they have given such a gigantic head start to Boeing that they will never catch up in that segment. After all, there are not thousands or millions of customers for these products (unlike automobiles), but only a hundred or so major customers, with a number of smaller players that basically follow the leader.

Glad you appreciated the riposte!
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 3:04 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 34):
Boeing has a totally new method of manufacturing as well as a huge materials advantage. Unless Airbus develops the same technology, a long-shot at best, they will not be able to compete in the crucial category of weight. Furthermore, the man-hours required for assembly of CFRP fuselages should put Airbus' metal-working at a competitive disadvantage.

I also don't see how Airbus can match the B787 if they stay with Al-Li, but let's wait and see what the OEW numbers are for the "new all-new" A350.
 
dhefty
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 3:14 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
I also don't see how Airbus can match the B787 if they stay with Al-Li, but let's wait and see what the OEW numbers are for the "new all-new" A350.

OK, let's wait. What other choice is there? Even if the numbers were equivalent (which is doubtful), there is the matter of the 4-5 year head start for Boeing. That alone could prove to be fatal.

The air seems to be going out of the bus.
 
abba
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 40):
the manufacturing

The basic philosophy of the manufacturing process - putting together pre-assembled sections - that have been made here and there and everywhere by a network of risk sharing partners (remember that it was only resently that Airbus became an integrated company!) is the way aircrafts have been build (at least) since the 320 by Airbus. It is indeed new to Boeing (when it comes to comercial aircrafts) and it remains to be seen how Boeing is going to handle such - for them - dramatic change in production philosophy. It might prove to be a major challenge to their company culture. It will be interresting to follow!

ABBA
 
dhefty
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 43):
The basic philosophy of the manufacturing process - putting together pre-assembled sections - that have been made here and there and everywhere by a network of risk sharing partners (remember that it was only resently that Airbus became an integrated company!) is the way aircrafts have been build (at least) since the 320 by Airbus.

I don't think you really grasp the full impact of what Boeing is attempting to accomplish with the B787. It is far more advanced than anything yet attempted by Airbus. Obviously, it remains to be seen whether or not implementation of such advances will be timely and smooth.
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:03 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 43):
It is indeed new to Boeing (when it comes to comercial aircrafts) and it remains to be seen how Boeing is going to handle such - for them - dramatic change in production philosophy. It might prove to be a major challenge to their company culture. It will be interresting to follow!

IIRC, Convair in San Diego was building fuselage sections for the DC-10/MD-11 until it was shuttered in the nineties. Were fuselage sections for the 747 ever built elsewhere, like Northrup or Convair in Southern California?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:22 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 38):
Of course, that means longer development times and higher development costs, and Airbus will be very lucky if they can deliver the first A350's by 2012!

Not sure why that should be the case. They've said 2012 and I'm inclined to believe them (unless of course another new "all-new" A350 appears)  Smile

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 36):
I wonder if A aren't making moves to equalize the capacity across their lineup, by moving the A350 up to fill the hole that was previously between the A340 and the A380, and planning for a slightly larger A320 replacement. They would end up with three families evenly covering the whole gamut of sizes, with no obvious holes, much like Boeing is planning to do.

That's a conclusion that I've been quietly coming to  checkmark 

Of course, the middle aircraft (the new "all-new" A350) is being given a LOT of work to do if that is the case - I don't see the A380 "coming down-size" to meet it.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 44):
I don't think you really grasp the full impact of what Boeing is attempting to accomplish with the B787. It is far more advanced than anything yet attempted by Airbus. Obviously, it remains to be seen whether or not implementation of such advances will be timely and smooth.

I suspect that he does, Dhefty. I'm fully supportive of the 787 programme and consider the TOTAL approach revolutionary.
The Composite fuselage and its manufacturing methodology are also a bit elegant (particularly in terms of product performance, it would appear).

From a manufacturing/operational strategy standpoint, the fuselage structure will be lucky to be 20% of the total job, and therefore people shouldn't jump on a "manufacturing revolution" for the whole aircraft based on the composite fuselage alone.
I'm pretty sure you know lots of the other things that Boeing are doing, like the step change in outsourcing, and the fully-outfitted modularisation, leading to 3-day "final assembly" (whatever that is). Those are AT LEAST as significant IMO as the composite fuselage (from a manufacturing viewpoint for the total aircraft).
In those respects, ABBA is right. Boeing are developing their operational strategy along lines that Airbus have operated along for years.

There's no doubt in my mind though that they intend to "out-Airbus" Airbus in that respect, and take the philosophy to even higher levels. Again, I'm full of admiration for that.
Airbus recognise that too, and have also made indications of further developments of their operational strategy to match the 787.

Regards
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:30 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 46):
Airbus recognise that too, and have also made indications of further developments of their operational strategy to match the 787.

Are you disappointed Airbus appears to be sticking with the Al-Li fuselage on the "new all-new" A350?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
centrair
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:31 pm

Happy to see Airbus make the needed changes. I was disappointed with the original A350 as it just didn't seem to be innovative or new. If this new-new A350 can meet the 787 and maybe replace older A340s/A330s and 777s then it is great for progress. I don't care who makes it as long as it flies, I have a chance to ride it or can photograph/videotape it.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 47):
Are you disappointed Airbus appears to be sticking with the Al-Li fuselage on the "new all-new" A350?

The answer to your question is "yes", although I'll admit that despite reading a lot here on a-net regarding the relative merits, I'm not enough of an expert to "assure" anyone that the CFRP fuselage is a better solution. I just have a gut feeling that it is.

However, as Poitin suggests, it might not necessarily be a foregone conclusion just yet  Smile

At the end of the day we're currently still all speculating. Be an interesting summer though  thumbsup 

Regards
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far?

Wed May 10, 2006 6:10 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 46):
Boeing are developing their operational strategy along lines that Airbus have operated along for years.

Boeing have been copying Airbus in this regard for several years now.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 46):

There's no doubt in my mind though that they intend to "out-Airbus" Airbus in that respect, and take the philosophy to even higher levels. Again, I'm full of admiration for that.

Yes, the B787 will take this process a large step forward beyond where Airbus are now. Progress is good, whether it comes from Airbus or Boeing.

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