leelaw
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US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 3:00 pm

US Federal Aviation Administration officials have approved three Airbus narrowbody models, including the manufacturer’s corporate aircraft, for 180min extended range twin-engine operations (ETOPS).

The approval covers the A319, A320 and A321 aircraft types and follows a similar decision by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) in 2004.


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ETOPS+to+A319%2c+A320%2c+A321.html
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ikramerica
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 3:36 pm

I assume this clears them for Hawaii flights now, though not sure if the 321 has the legs for it.

Why not the 318? Not enough samples or demand for it to be certified? it has the longest range of all, right?
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scbriml
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 3:41 pm

Here's Airbus's press release:
http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...releases_items/06_05_09_etops.html

Quote:
A318 ETOPS approval (EASA and FAA) is targeted for 2nd half of this year, leading to the complete Airbus Single Aisle Family to be ETOPS certified by both Authorities.
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ikramerica
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 4:17 pm

Thanks. That clears it up. I guess they did it last since it has the fewest examples in the market.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 5:23 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
it has the longest range of all, right?

Nope, the A319 has the longest range out of the A32X family, followed by the A320, A318 and then A321, IIRC.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 5:33 pm

Wow, now the A-321 can fly non-stop from MIA to Key West  bigthumbsup 

Just kidding, but they now can fly MIA to DFW.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
I assume this clears them for Hawaii flights now

On an A-321, I'll pass.

So, now (at least after the A-318 gets 180 minute ETOPS) all NBs can be ETOPS certified? As I understand it, the B-737NGs are ETOPS certified to 207 minutes? Why the difference?
 
Molykote
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 6:04 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 4):
Nope, the A319 has the longest range out of the A32X family, followed by the A320, A318 and then A321, IIRC.

The A321-200 has more range than the A320 and A319.
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Carpethead
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 6:14 pm

US-Hawaii is an obvious market where the A320-class maybe used but any other places in the world where ETOPS180 would be useful for this aircraft?
I am kind of surprised that it wasn't certified to ETOPS180 already.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
they now can fly MIA to DFW

They could do this even under the old, old rules (w/o ETOPS). The aircraft would just need overwater equipment aboard.
 
zvezda
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 6:22 pm

Excellent news for Airbus! This is also very good for PrivatAir, whose LH-marketed flights I can recommend highly.
 
FCKC
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 6:53 pm

This certification has been asked by Airbus to the FAA , for the first American 319CJ , belonging to Pharmair Corp , replacing a DC9.


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connies4ever
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 7:11 pm

Carpethead wrote:

US-Hawaii is an obvious market where the A320-class maybe used but any other places in the world where ETOPS180 would be useful for this aircraft?
I am kind of surprised that it wasn't certified to ETOPS180 already.
~~~~~~~~~~~

It's possible that AC might be interested in using the 320 on YYT-LHR services
to replace the soon-to-be withdrawn 767-300 services (discussed in another thread).
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CPDC10-30
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 7:29 pm

It's possible that AC might be interested in using the 320 on YYT-LHR services to replace the soon-to-be withdrawn 767-300 services (discussed in another thread).

Just what I was thinking, however I think it was the A319 that was given consideration on that route. I wonder if this would also possibly open up other routes from YHZ/YYT, such as GLA/SNN/DUB, either from AC or Skyservice (another A319 operator). All are theoretically possible, and are shorter than YYZ-BOG (AC's longest A319 route currently) - but reality may be another case.

This could also open up opportunities for JetBlue, but having A320s in service and on order wouldn't allow them to take advantage of the ETOPS operations very much. The A319 and A321-200 with the additional tanks should be able to reach Hawaiian destinations from LGB comfortably.
 
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 8:09 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 6):
The A321-200 has more range than the A320 and A319.

Not according to this. The 320 has the distance. 2650nm compared to 2300nm.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/productcompare/

Good to hear, hopefully UA can shave some time off their DEN-ANC flights now and head out over the Gulf of Alaska instead of hugging the coast. Same with HP and F9.

[Edited 2006-05-10 13:39:40]
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CPDC10-30
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 8:15 pm

Not according to this. The 320 has the distance. 2650nm compared to 2300nm.

That is the theoretical range, with the additional central tank. But in practice, it turns out that this doesn't improve range much at all because of MTOW restrictions, JetBlue gave up on them reportedley. LongHauler has made a few good posts on this topic - as he is a pilot on the A319/320/321. The additional fuel tanks ended up being much more effective on the A321-200. I remember him stating that the A321 also has better takeoff performance than the A320.
 
Molykote
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 8:20 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Not according to this. The 320 has the distance. 2650nm compared to 2300nm.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...pare/

Check your personal messages although you are correct under certain configurations....
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drerx7
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 9:29 pm

This sounds like a segway for F9 to open up some Hawaii flights in the future--now the airlines would have to certify their specific A319/320/321s correct? What flexibility does this add to airlines that already have fleets of ETOPS 757s? Thinner flights I suppose?
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A319XFW
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 9:30 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Not according to this. The 320 has the distance. 2650nm compared to 2300nm.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...pare/

The A321 used there in the comparison is the A321-100 (lower MTOW).
You can have up to 2 ACT's for the basic A319, A320 and A321-200 in the rear cargo bay (and the A319CJ up to 6 in 2 fwd and 4 aft).
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 16):
The A321 used there in the comparison is the A321-100 (lower MTOW).



Quoting Molykote (Reply 14):
Check your personal messages although you are correct under certain configurations....



Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 13):
I remember him stating that the A321 also has better takeoff performance than the A320.

Thanks Gents . . . .

Learn something new everyday . . . .

So, that begs an interesting question.

Is the 321 now a viable option for carriers that wanted a 757-200 and can't get one?
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MidnightMike
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
Carpethead wrote:

US-Hawaii is an obvious market where the A320-class maybe used but any other places in the world where ETOPS180 would be useful for this aircraft?
I am kind of surprised that it wasn't certified to ETOPS180 already.

Does the A320 have the legs for the US-Hawaii market?
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BDL2DCA
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
It's possible that AC might be interested in using the 320 on YYT-LHR services
to replace the soon-to-be withdrawn 767-300 services (discussed in another thread).

This is possible under ETOPS-120, therefore not related to this announcement.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Good to hear, hopefully UA can shave some time off their DEN-ANC flights now and head out over the Gulf of Alaska instead of hugging the coast. Same with HP and F9.

Again, I'm sure, at most, this would require ETOPS 120, and probably not even that. The issue is most likely the equipment is not equipped for extended over water ops. US (east) maintains EOW 320-series birds. It is probably a matter of time before a US (east) aircraft takes that route over from US (west/HP). I do not believe UA or F9 have EOW 320-series aircraft.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 10:11 pm

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 19):
This is possible under ETOPS-120, therefore not related to this announcement.



Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 19):
Again, I'm sure, at most, this would require ETOPS 120, and probably not even that.

Indeed, as per the Great Circle mapper, both YYT-LHR and West Coast-ANC flights are easily within ETOPS120, heck, the ANC flights are even within ETOPS90.
ETOPS180 really is only required for Hawaii flights, everything else is within shorter ETOPS.
 
Molykote
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Is the 321 now a viable option for carriers that wanted a 757-200 and can't get one?

Within the US this is viable for most routes. However, the A321 is not likely to effectively meet the requirements of certain duty cycles.

The 757 can handle conditions that the A321 can't deal with reliably (high altitude and hot conditions). Even a 757-200 leaves Vail, CO with a substantial payload penalty - An A321 would probably be totally unfeasible on a route like this. SXM is an airport with a lot of famous photos on this site - Take a look at the metal that AA and US send to the Caribbean (generally 757s).

One of the conditions that can occur under the hot and high conditions are N-spool rotor exceedances or EGT (exhaust gas temperature) exceedances. Each engine will operate within a specified limit of rotor speeds (RPM) and EGT. When you increase altitude and temperature you are requiring an engine to work harder to produce a given amount of thrust as it works on the less dense air. I have seen exceedance conditons on even 757s (known for being hot rods) in such conditions. The A321 probably wouldn't have a prayer of staying within operational limitations on a day when the 757 is having trouble.

The 757 has also proven to be a viable transport for transatlantic flights to the east coast. The A321 wouldn't have a prayer on this mission.
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WJ
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Wed May 10, 2006 11:40 pm

You have to remember that just because the FAA approved this type of aircraft for ETOPS, you will not be seeing 319's arriving in HNL tomorrow. It simply opens the door for airlines who choose to, certify their own aircraft, crews and programs for this function. This is still a few months down the road.
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ca2ohHP
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 19):
Again, I'm sure, at most, this would require ETOPS 120, and probably not even that. The issue is most likely the equipment is not equipped for extended over water ops. US (east) maintains EOW 320-series birds. It is probably a matter of time before a US (east) aircraft takes that route over from US (west/HP). I do not believe UA or F9 have EOW 320-series aircraft.

Sounds like good news for PHX-Hawaii flights where HP's 757's have really been suffering.
 
ikramerica
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 15):
This sounds like a segway for F9 to open up some Hawaii flights in the future

From LAX? That's a crowded market. From DEN, it's too far.

I expect UA to take advantage of this, and possibly Virgin America (if they ever get going) and JetBlue.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 18):
Does the A320 have the legs for the US-Hawaii market?

It's shorter than many transcons, though the winds can be a bit stronger in some conditions, and there's no place to do a fuel stop.

I would imagine out of LAX, there would be no problem with A320s, though I'd think A319s to smaller islands might be where we see them, rather than into HNL.

Quoting WJ (Reply 22):
It simply opens the door for airlines who choose to, certify their own aircraft, crews and programs for this function. This is still a few months down the road.

Well, yeah. But it means they can actually start doing it. Carriers that already have ETOPS120 A32X series aircraft and long service histories should have little difficulty getting them ETOPS180 approved. It's getting Airbus repair facilities in HNL that will take more time, i would imagine.
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drerx7
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 23):
Sounds like good news for PHX-Hawaii flights where HP's 757's have really been suffering.

Is the 319/320 any better? Even HPs lower rated 757s perform better than 319s/320s don't they?
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ca2ohHP
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 25):

The 319/320's are much newer and reliable. Some of the West 757's date back to Eastern Airlines. They're hangar queens.
 
Eirules
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 4:26 am

I wonder could we see EI using A320s to JFK or BOS in the near future given their ongoing problems with the A330s reliability
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drerx7
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 26):
The 319/320's are much newer and reliable. Some of the West 757's date back to Eastern Airlines. They're hangar queens.

Ahh - I though you meant climb/range/performance of the HP757s compaired to the 319s/320
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warreng24
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 26):
e 319/320's are much newer and reliable. Some of the West 757's date back to Eastern Airlines. They're hangar queens.

I have never experienced a ground delay on a 757 b/c of a flight computer needing to be reprogrammed!!!!
 
ATAIndy
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
This is also very good for PrivatAir, whose LH-marketed flights I can recommend highly.

I thought they used 737 BBJ's, but I might be wrong.

-Feister
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 6:00 am

Are the B737 NG certified for ETOPS180? If not, then what are they certified for over 60 mins?

AK
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ORDagent
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting EIRules (Reply 27):
A330s reliability

First I've heard of 330 reliability issues. Can you point me in the right direction for the 411?
 
LAXintl
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 19):
I do not believe UA or F9 have EOW 320-series aircraft.

UA has a 18 aircraft (13 mainline/5 TED) EOW A320 subfleet. Generally cover Caribbean, Florida and occasion Central America flying.
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DTWAGENT
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 8:54 am

Now could USAirways us the A-321 on the PHX-HNL run??? or PHL-GLA or SNN?????
 
WJ
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 34):
Now could USAirways us the A-321 on the PHX-HNL run??? or PHL-GLA or SNN?????

PHL-GLA with fuel stops in YHZ and KEF...
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timz
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
As I understand it, the B-737NGs are ETOPS certified to 207 minutes?

Anybody else heard of that?

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 31):
Are the B737 NG certified for ETOPS180?

We assume so, since they fly California to Hawaii. And do they still do YVR-HNL?
 
LAXintl
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 36):
Anybody else heard of that?

The 777 is 207min ETOPS certified not the 737NG, and only under specific conditions across the Pacific.

What Boeing is working on currently is a 330 minute ETOPS rule, which would allow the 777 and future 787 to operate in any region of the world without restrictions
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777fan
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 23):
Sounds like good news for PHX-Hawaii flights where HP's 757's have really been suffering.

Aren't the PHX-HNL 752 flights often weight restricted? I suppose you couldn't rule out 319s given what AQ uses to fly to the mainland! I'd still rather fly a 752!


777fan
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flyboyaz
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 38):
Aren't the PHX-HNL 752 flights often weight restricted?

Not anymore since the MTOW was increased.
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ikramerica
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 2:11 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 37):
What Boeing is working on currently is a 330 minute ETOPS rule, which would allow the 777 and future 787 to operate in any region of the world without restrictions

And A350/370 as well. Now that Airbus is moving the same direction, look for a strong push by both companies and fewer obstructions by regulatory agencies.

At least for ETOPS 240 or 270 if 330 isn't seen as safe enough.
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Boeing744
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting Timz (Reply 36):
And do they still do YVR-HNL?

Yes, both Air Pacific and WestJet fly this route with 737-800s.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
I assume this clears them for Hawaii flights now, though not sure if the 321 has the legs for it.



Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 18):
Does the A320 have the legs for the US-Hawaii market?

I'm not sure. AC uses their A321s, and A320s (and A319s for that matter) on routes such as YVR-YYZ, YVR-YOW and YVR-YUL. All of these flights are over 4 hours, so why couldn't the A321 do LAX or SFO to HNL (or other islands)? Even with weight restrictions...
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 5:08 pm

Quoting ATAIndy (Reply 30):
I thought they used 737 BBJ's, but I might be wrong.

Partially wrong. Privatair DOES use BBJs, but they also use A319CJs as well. Though as said, even ETOPS120 is enough for current Privatair routes, and ETOPS180 would only be an advantage if they were to fly from MUC or DUS to MIA or somewhere in the Caribbean, which isn't too likely, given their business configuration of those jets. Don't see a realistic demand for such flights.
 
ikramerica
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 5:14 pm

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 41):
All of these flights are over 4 hours, so why couldn't the A321 do LAX or SFO to HNL (or other islands)?

Because there is absolutely nowhere to stop between LAX or SFO and Hawaii, and the weather measurements over the thousands of miles of open ocean are not nearly as exact. If you faced stronger winds than you expected, you could easily be forced to turn around or not have the legs to make it.

So you need ETOPS 180 on this route for safety reasons, but you need long legs for practical reasons.
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Boeing744
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Thu May 11, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 43):

So you need ETOPS 180 on this route for safety reasons, but you need long legs for practical reasons.

OK, makes sense, thanks for the answer.
 
Eirules
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RE: US FAA Grants 180min Etops To A319, A320, A321

Sat May 13, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 32):
First I've heard of 330 reliability issues. Can you point me in the right direction for the 411?

EI have been having issues with their A330s of late. Recently a DXB-DUB flight was delayed for 9 hours due to techs and they had to bring in World Airways 757s for BOS and JFK flights a few weeks back when one of the 330s had difficulties. The main problem for EI is the lack of replacement 330s if one has a problem
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