robertmalpass
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:41 pm

Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 4:16 am

Are Embraer 145s more susceptible to lightning strikes than other aircraft?

There have been electric storms around BRS this evening and only the BA 145s were diverted to CWL and BHX, while the EZY 737s/319s managed to land at BRS with no apparent problems.
 
timboflier215
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 7:54 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 4:19 am

Was it specifically because of the lightning or was it the severity of the storms?
 
robertmalpass
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:41 pm

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 4:22 am

Only know they were diverted, not sure of the reason, but must have been the weather. In any case the storm wasn't that severe.
 
hb88
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 5:17 am

I've heard that yes, they are more susceptible to lightning strike.
 
waukewan
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:20 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 5:43 am

I've also heard that because of their electronics and navigation systems they are more prone to lightning than most other aircraft.

-Mike
 
timboflier215
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 7:54 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Waukewan (Reply 4):
ecause of their electronics and navigation systems they are more prone to lightning than most other aircraft.

That's interesting! I guess it can't be too serious a problem, except for the odd diversion. I wonder if E realised about this problem before they put the jet into production?
 
Okie
Posts: 3607
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 6:29 am

I believe that there was an incident where an EMB-145 was struck by lightning in the UK somewhere. It caused both engines to shutdown. I do not think that it was determined if there was a problem with the FADEC electrically from the strike or if the super heated gases from the lightning strike caused both engines to stall due to the close proximity to each other and the airflow around the fuselage.
In anycase the FADEC did not allow the engines to motor through the event automatically and the turbines had to be restarted manually.

I will look to see where I saw that report and post it when I find it.

Okie
 
Okie
Posts: 3607
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 8:44 am

www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/G-RJXG_11-05.pdf

Here you go give that a try. Incident of lightning strike on an Embraer.

Okie
 
robertmalpass
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:41 pm

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 2:21 pm

Great thanks Okie! Interesting to see that E145s seem to be more susceptible to lightning. It's a shame as they're funky little planes.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 2:28 pm

Is it not more likely that the Embraer being so small makes it less stable in flying through rough weather. If you look at the flight cancelations when the weather gets bad, the express flights are always the first to get canceled
 
robertmalpass
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:41 pm

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 5:43 pm

I'd heard it was more a function of their ILS category rating rather than the size of the aircraft. But not absolutely sure of this.
 
Okie
Posts: 3607
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting Artsyman (Reply 9):
If you look at the flight cancelations when the weather gets bad, the express flights are always the first to get canceled

It is going to be a combination of all the above along with ops.

1. Possibly a susceptibility to lightning problems.
2. Small plane in a rough atmosphere.
3. If weather disrupts operations then you are dealing with rescheduling fewer passengers when you cancel or divert an RJ.
4. If weather is effecting operations then an RJ is probably going to be scheduled for a short hop and is going to be right back in the soup for the next flight.
5. An of course most RJ lift is provided by SJP's and the diversion or cancellation is thrown into SJP's court to deal with the equipment and crew scheduling issues.
6. Some of the passengers will blame the delay of diversion on the SJP not the mainline carrier.

Okie
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 10:21 pm

I don't know if they are any more susceptible to lightning strikes than other airliners - they might be affected more adversely than others.

When I worked for Mesa, I heard a couple stories of our CRJ's getting hit. The worst I had heard as far as outcomes from this was that one CRJ lost a winglet due to a strike.

S
The GoodDoctor
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:23 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Thu May 11, 2006 11:44 pm

we had a erj come in last week that was hit by lightning. it hit the antenna underneath that is near the forward part of the fuselage. it blew out #2 radio and litterlly split the antenna in half. "exit wounds" were on each wing and a bigger one on the trim tab on top.
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Mon May 15, 2006 7:22 am

I have never seen any statistics showing a higher incidence of lightning strikes on the -135/40-45, so I think the answer would be no unless someone can show otherwise.

Quoting Okie (Reply 6):
believe that there was an incident where an EMB-145 was struck by lightning in the UK somewhere. It caused both engines to shutdown. I do not think that it was determined if there was a problem with the FADEC electrically from the strike or if the super heated gases from the lightning strike caused both engines to stall due to the close proximity to each other and the airflow around the fuselage.
In anycase the FADEC did not allow the engines to motor through the event automatically and the turbines had to be restarted manually.

The fadecs control the engines...read the report; the engines (only 1 I believe) had a compressor stall that the fadec could not resolve; as it decellerated to around 53.5% N2, the fadec commands a shutdown to protect the engine. The report notes a normal borescope, and normally functioning fadecs for that engine post flight. If both fadecs on 1 engine are inoperable for whatever reason, the engine will shut down if running and cannot be started if shutdown, so the is no such thing as being "restarted manually."

[quote=Artsyman,reply=9]Is it not more likely that the Embraer being so small makes it less stable in flying through rough weather. If you look at the flight cancelations when the weather gets bad, the express flights are always the first to get canceled

That above comment is utter nonsense. An erj is a transport certified a/c, period. There is no distinction in capability b/t it and a 747 when relating to weather...with the big picture being that rough weather (precip, icing, etc) is to be avoided whenever possible.



Quoting Okie (Reply 11):
It is going to be a combination of all the above along with ops.

1. Possibly a susceptibility to lightning problems.
2. Small plane in a rough atmosphere.
3. If weather disrupts operations then you are dealing with rescheduling fewer passengers when you cancel or divert an RJ.
4. If weather is effecting operations then an RJ is probably going to be scheduled for a short hop and is going to be right back in the soup for the next flight.
5. An of course most RJ lift is provided by SJP's and the diversion or cancellation is thrown into SJP's court to deal with the equipment and crew scheduling issues.
6. Some of the passengers will blame the delay of diversion on the SJP not the mainline carrier

My comments:

1. Not a valid point
2. Covered in 2nd paragraph above
3. Airlines schedule equipment to try to "right size" the operation to the city and market; therefore pax off a cancelled RJ will have to be accomodated, in all liklihood, on another RJ, so a cancelled RJ is as big a problem as a cancelled 737 in terms of logistics.
4. Weather affects the entire system...
 
Electech6299
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Embraer 145s And Lightning

Mon May 15, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Robertmalpass (Thread starter):
There have been electric storms around BRS this evening and only the BA 145s were diverted to CWL and BHX, while the EZY 737s/319s managed to land at BRS with no apparent problems.

Lots of variables to answer here, and I think many are barking up the wrong trees....

Only two airlines and three frames have been mentioned, out of hundreds of airlines and frames currently flying. So to pin your observation on the frame is not likely to be correct.

What if BA has stricter ops rules- or BA ERJ pilots (or frames) do not have current ILS certification for the prevailing weather? Then EZY ERJs (do they have any? just hypothetical....) could have landed but not BAs. If it's an ops rule, you might have seen EZY ERJs landing while BA 737s and 320s diverted.

What about CRJs? Any data on them?

There's way too many variables here for me to believe any diversions were based on rumors about lightning strikes. If someone has specific meteorological data from the time and knowledge of BA ops rules and how they were applied, I'm sure you'd get a more precise answer. Just some food for thought...

[Edited 2006-05-15 04:25:54]edits: spelling

[Edited 2006-05-15 04:28:07]
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