User avatar
jetpixx
Posts: 840
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:22 pm

ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 6:53 pm

To me, I thought it was even a lot longer ago than 10 years...but today marks the 10-year anniversary of the sad crash of a ValuJet DC-9 into the Everglades killing 100 people. Every time I am on approach to FLL or MIA and I peer out my window, I think about those poor souls...

...any thoughts on this incident are appreciated.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3235
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 7:16 pm

I was just thinking about 592 on my way into work this morning. I can't believe it's been ten years. I googled Valujet this morning, and there were a couple interesting articles in news papers this morning. It the Star-Telegram they highlight some changes to the airline system since 592 went down. They include;

All chemical oxygen generators and oxidizers were banned as cargo on passenger aircraft beginning May 23, 1996.

_Fire detection and suppression systems were required for certain cargo holds in all U.S. airliners as of March 19, 2001.

_All cargo aircraft are now required to have fire detection systems and a way to shut off air flow to the cargo compartment.

_ More than 3,480 aircraft were retrofitted for these fire systems at a cost of $300 million. Dozens of older aircraft were retired.

_FAA now has 124 hazardous materials inspectors, compared with 14 in 1996.

_In 2006, FAA will inspect about 3,100 air carriers and 6,100 shipping companies for compliance with hazardous materials rules. Violators can be fined $32,500 per violation.

_New airlines operate under increased FAA safety supervision during their first five years.

And I read a good statement from one of the victims family members.

George Griner of Benbrook, Texas, who lost his son Mark in the crash, said: ''I like to think that Mark was part of helping save a lot of people over a number of years. To me, that's a great contribution."

592 is something that will always hang above AirTran, but as en employee I know that we have moved so very far away from what Valujet was. I hope that some of the victims families find some solace in the fact that due to this tragedy, there have been so many rule changes that many more lives have been saved.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 7:36 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 1):
592 is something that will always hang above AirTran

Perhaps for employee's but I can gaurentee you that 99% of PAX never make the Valuejet-AirTran connection.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8649
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 7:38 pm

The oldest DGR book I could find in my library dates from 1998. UN ID 3356 is indicated with a "change" triangle here.

Oxygen generators have been DGR before the Valuejet crash happened and if only one of those morons involved in the handling of the consignment had only the slightest idea of what he was doing, better, a valid DGR training, this accident would not have happened at all. It would certainly not have happened in Europe BTW. Even if the Oxygen generators had been properly packed and just shipped without DGR certificate,most likely would not have happened. They shipped the things loose in a box. Idiots.

I remember my reaction when the cause of the accident became known and that was exactly that - give proper training to everybody involved and air transport is a lot safer than it is already.
powered by Eierlikör
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12504
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 8:30 pm

I remember comming back to my house mid-afternoon that Saturday and turning on the TV to CNN and seeing about this crash. It was terrifying to see what may have happened. A full sized commercial aircraft and it's occupants reduced to tiny shreds buried in high swamp grass and mud. I remember the attempts to get to the site and attempt to recover the bodies, the recorder boxes and some of the remains of the aircraft being a horrible experience upon the workers there. Then we found out it's source from the O2 Generators in the cargo area and just in shock of the obscene stupidity of how this crash happened.
Yes, we did learn from this terrible accident but at a high cost that never should have been paid if some common sense was used.
 
Geo772
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:40 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 8:37 pm

The valujet crash is another reminder to all of us that direct human factors contribute to most air crashes. We can only learn from these mistakes and hope that through better training and working practices we can prevent such events happening again.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 9:16 pm

I diddnt really grasp what was going on as I was 8 at the time, but I was watching an episode of COPS about a month ago, and they were in Miami/Dade and they got a call of an a/c down. Little did the officer know, he responded to the valujet crash. He was the, IIRC third officer on scene and was actually helping look for survivors. Sadly, we now know that was fruitless.

My condolences to all affected.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 9:28 pm

My gosh, ten years? I remember that vividly because I was at my cousins wedding reception, when my dad heard about it and told me.

RIP Valuejet 592.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 9:30 pm

I was watching a football game when they broke in with the news that an airplane had gone down in South Florida. My first thought was Valujet because they were running such a shoddy operation. It's 10 years later now and I think Airtran has become a good airline.
 
BDKLEZ
Posts: 1687
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:57 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 10:32 pm

Am I correct in my thinking that the aircraft involved in the ValuJet crash was previously operated by BD, and that it was the last DC9 to leave the BD fleet?

I remember hearing something along those lines at the time altough I cannot be sure. Can anyone either confirm or deny this?

 scratchchin 
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 11:00 pm

No, That certain aircraft came from DL... Formerly N1281L. They did have a couple of DC9s from BD, but that wasn't one of them. Also, IIRC, N904VJ seemed to be the only DC9 in the fleet that didn't have the black under the windscreen.

The truth is, while there was a lot of stupidity involved in the crash, there was a lot of stupidity involved in the entire operation. Think about it, N904VJ had 8 maintenance related air-turnbacks. That should be an eye-opener right there in itself.
Puhdiddle
 
atlaaron
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:30 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting ILOVEA340 (Reply 2):
Perhaps for employee's but I can gaurentee you that 99% of PAX never make the Valuejet-AirTran connection.

I think you are 100% correct.
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1635
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting ILOVEA340 (Reply 2):
Perhaps for employee's but I can gaurentee you that 99% of PAX never make the Valuejet-AirTran connection.

They don't have to Google does it for them. Google ValuJet and the fourth listing is Airtran Airways homepage.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
N501US
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 1:51 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 11:07 pm

May they all rest in peace.

The Palm Beach Post ran an article on the crash this morning. They had a little time capsule in one column decsrbing ValuJet and how they "became" AirTran. Of course it failed to mention that since becoming AirTran they have completely changed their fleet, have experienced consistent profits, and a good safety record.

I should know better than to read any article in a newspaper regarding the airline industry and expect to come away with the "facts.
Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 11:25 pm

The articles all sound like the same AP article that's making the rounds today... from the USAToday:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-05-11-valujet-crash_x.htm

- Travis
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
Oxygen generators have been DGR before the Valuejet crash happened and if only one of those morons involved in the handling of the consignment had only the slightest idea of what he was doing, better, a valid DGR training, this accident would not have happened at all.

Yes, the oxygen generators were "dangerous goods" before the accident. However, it wasn't just a lack of training that contributed to this accident. IIRC, former Valujet CEO Lewis Jordan testified in the NTSB's "Sunshine Hearing" that company-owned hazardous materials (hazmat) transported on company aircraft weren't subject to the dangerous goods carriage restrictions.

So there was a culture of ignoring the regulations - apparently also at the air carriers Jordan worked at prior to ValuJet - when in came to carrying "comat" (company material) even if it was hazmat.

I haven't been able to understand why he thought that way.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
AJMIA
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:29 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Thu May 11, 2006 11:40 pm

I remember that day clearly.

I was walking to the bus stop to take me to the terminal at the MIA employee parking lot. In those days the lot was always very full and if you had an afternoon shift you had to park on the extreme south side of the lot.

I saw the plane take off right over my head. It stood out to me because this was the first time I had seen a Value Jet plane flying. I thought to myself that the white, light blue and yellow paint job looked classy, but the cartoon airplane somewhat cheapened it.

By the time I got to the terminal and began working my shift, the Customer Service Manager was coming up behind each agent and whispering in their ear that a plane had crashed, but it was not one of ours and we must remain calm.

I have also been to the Value Jet memorial off the Tamiami Trail in the Everglades. It is a very simple group of pillars made from concrete blocks. I like the design but it would be more fitting to have it reconstructed with stone or marble. I would definately contribute to an effort to upgrade the memorial.
The last time I stopped by the memorial on my way home from bike riding in Shark Valley it had been vandalized.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5349
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 1:09 am

From the AP Article: "Aviation experts say the ValuJet crash — coupled with the fuel tank explosion over Long Island Sound that destroyed a TWA Boeing 747 on July 16, 1996, killing 230 people — put a much-needed focus on chronic safety problems."

Riiiiiight. "chronic safety problems". Riiiiiiight.

Let's review: when a reporter wants to make a point and make it sound authoritative, he/she writes, "Experts say".

Idiots.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8649
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 15):



Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 15):

Yes, the oxygen generators were "dangerous goods" before the accident. However, it wasn't just a lack of training that contributed to this accident. IIRC, former Valujet CEO Lewis Jordan testified in the NTSB's "Sunshine Hearing" that company-owned hazardous materials (hazmat) transported on company aircraft weren't subject to the dangerous goods carriage restrictions.

So there was a culture of ignoring the regulations - apparently also at the air carriers Jordan worked at prior to ValuJet - when in came to carrying "comat" (company material) even if it was hazmat.

I haven't been able to understand why he thought that way.

I hope they put him away for criminal neglicence and I would not understand why if that was not done. People go to jail for lesser things, especially in the USA and some states, FL is one of them. After I posted here, the German AERO June issue was in the mail and they had an article about the crash. They printed a facsimile of the "shipping ticket", no 01041 - item 1 Qty 5 "Oxy cannisters" faulty - although this could read "empty" as well.

BTW - I would not call this a "culture" when basic safety standards are ignored in a company. That is the opposite of culture, whatever you want to name it.
powered by Eierlikör
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 1:28 am

Jesus - do we have to go down this road again? The NTSB report is detailed, clear, and contains all the relevant factors if anybody wants to read it. But to hash out here the finger pointing and who specifically was at blame, when nearly all the accusations are based on half-truths, biases, or at best selective memories is ignorant and ridiculous.

It was an AWFUL, HORRIFIC crash that could have been easily prevented - with plenty of blame to go around - and it changed the industry forever. Discuss it smartly without the slanted opinions (on both sides!), or move on... it's a dead horse that's been beaten.
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1635
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Travatl (Reply 19):
Jesus - do we have to go down this road again? The NTSB report is detailed, clear, and contains all the relevant factors if anybody wants to read it. But to hash out here the finger pointing and who specifically was at blame, when nearly all the accusations are based on half-truths, biases, or at best selective memories is ignorant and ridiculous.

It was an AWFUL, HORRIFIC crash that could have been easily prevented - with plenty of blame to go around - and it changed the industry forever. Discuss it smartly without the slanted opinions (on both sides!), or move on... it's a dead horse that's been beaten.

I agree but let the people have thier say. Not everything is "truly" covered in the NTSB reports.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 2:14 am

Discussion regarding facts is one thing. Opining on hearsay or bias is another.
 
UK_Dispatcher
Posts: 2254
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 8:44 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting BDKLEZ (Reply 9):
Am I correct in my thinking that the aircraft involved in the ValuJet crash was previously operated by BD, and that it was the last DC9 to leave the BD fleet?

I wondered that at the time, too. A number of British Midland DC9s went to Valujet, including the last one to leave the BD fleet. I remember going to see the last BD DC9 flight at MME, as it was a special EMA-MME-EMA flight. It was a memorable occasion, with the original BD DC9 Captain and First Officer present.
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:15 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 2:30 am

If the ValueJet crash is "hanging over" AirTran, then it is not having much effect as AirTran is a fairly healthy airline and is doing very well.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting UK_Dispatcher (Reply 22):
I wondered that at the time, too. A number of British Midland DC9s went to Valujet, including the last one to leave the BD fleet. I remember going to see the last BD DC9 flight at MME, as it was a special EMA-MME-EMA flight. It was a memorable occasion, with the original BD DC9 Captain and First Officer present.

One of the ex-BD birds still had a British Midland Cargo sticker stuck on the inside of the inner door of the front cargo bin when I worked @ FL more than 6 years back.
 
beertrucker
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:13 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 5:14 am

Yeah it was tem years today. i won't forget i was working for valujet at the time. I won't go into too much about it but our gate agents did have to tell someone that thier family was not coming home. it was a hard day on all of us. but thanks to great people in the airport with other airlines that day it did make the day a little easier to keep working.
Fly HI
 
LH459
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:41 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 5:23 am

Wow, 10 years already...A high school classmate of mine died in that crash.
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
User avatar
ptharris
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:58 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting ILOVEA340 (Reply 2):
Perhaps for employee's but I can gaurentee you that 99% of PAX never make the Valuejet-AirTran connection.

Nor do I. Could someone explain how the two are connected? Living up here in the Pacific Northwest, I hardly know anything about AirTran other than they'd love to strangle the crap out of Delta if they got the chance. Big grin

Thanks.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
 
beertrucker
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:13 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 27):
Nor do I. Could someone explain how the two are connected? Living up here in the Pacific Northwest, I hardly know anything about AirTran other than they'd love to strangle the crap out of Delta if they got the chance.

Airtran Airlines and Valuejet Airways mergerd under the banner Airtran Airways after the crash.



that is before pics.
this is after pics.

then how we know them now.
Fly HI
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting Jetpixx (Thread starter):
To me, I thought it was even a lot longer ago than 10 years...but today marks the 10-year anniversary of the sad crash of a ValuJet DC-9 into the Everglades killing 100 people.


110 people, to be exact.


Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
A full sized commercial aircraft and it's occupants reduced to tiny shreds buried in high swamp grass and mud. I remember the attempts to get to the site and attempt to recover the bodies, the recorder boxes and some of the remains of the aircraft being a horrible experience upon the workers there.



Very frustrating, considering that only 40 bodies were recovered. The rest were swallowed up and sit somewhere in like 100 feet of Everglade swamp.


The USA Today article mentions a statement from Airtran:"In the 10 years since this tragedy took place, the airline has completely reinvented itself," AirTran said in a statement. "We've changed everything except our commitment to safety, which will always be our top priority at AirTran Airways."

Which is basically a way of saying, "Now that the skeletons are coming out of the closet, we must say we are a completely different airline than we were back then." Which really isn't a very smart thing to say, since by saying that, you are admitting that you were a shoddy operation THEN, and regularly overlooked and disregarded regulations that were required by every airline to follow. Even Valujet's ground operations manuel at the time dictated that anything listed as dangerous goods(which O2 canisters were to everyone, except to Valujet) are to be documented on the cargo manifest, confirmed upon pickup by the airline, and personally advised to the Captain that they will be loaded, for the Captain's discretion. This included empty O2 canisters. The Captain is then to sign that he has been advised of the dangerous goods onboard. However, these procedures were never followed by Valujet ground crews in MIA and the flight crew never knew they had O2 canisters in the cargo hold, empty or not. Much of the ground crew were even aware of such regulations. Even after the crash and resurrection of Valujet under the Airtran name, the airline STILL did not follow those regulations on a regular basis, something that would be smart to do to ensure another dangerous incident did not repeat itself. Airtran did eventually change outsourcing companies from SabreTech to TIMCO.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
I hope they put him away for criminal neglicence and I would not understand why if that was not done.

Nope, Jordan was never touched. In fact, by taking a look at this link, you can see he, and many other Valujet executives, are still helping run the show.

http://investor.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=64267&p=irol-IRHome


One would think that an airline would want to tout its history, but Airtran has gone to great lengths to cover up any indication that they ever existed before, say, 1999 when they recieved the first 717. And if you request Valujet on their website:

http://www.airtran.com/search/search...rch=valujet&Image1.x=12&Image1.y=8


Hopefully, EVERY airline and airline contractor has learned from this tragedy and even with the new safety procedures and regulations put into effect from the crash, that airlines and contractors will not just rely on those, but will go to even greater lengths to ensure such careless deaths never again occur. For something like this to happen, which could have been so easily diverted by some people focusing their jobs, is sickening to know and is even harder for someone to accept who lost a family member or friend under such tragic circumstances.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 7:20 am

While I will agree that those DC9s were old and needed a LOT of work, I still miss them. AirTran's DC-9 carried me on my very first flight ever, and while it was loud, smelly, and bumpy, I didn't really appreciate it very much then, but if I had the chance, I would love to go back and re-live that flight (without the headache). I really do miss those DC-9s.. And for those of you who work for AirTran, there is no way you can sit there and say you don't miss the DC-9s. Even if you hated them, deep down, they were still a VERY COOL Airplane.

I love the 717, but it is just too automated. Everything is pretty much controlled by a computer, whereas the loud DC-9 was "Steam gauge heaven"

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andy Martin - AirTeamImages
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alastair T. Gardiner - WorldAirImages

Puhdiddle
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 8):
I was watching a football game when they broke in with the news that an airplane had gone down in South Florida. My first thought was Valujet because they were running such a shoddy operation. It's 10 years later now and I think Airtran has become a good airline.

Are you sure??? What football game would be on in May?

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 15):
Yes, the oxygen generators were "dangerous goods" before the accident. However, it wasn't just a lack of training that contributed to this accident. IIRC, former Valujet CEO Lewis Jordan testified in the NTSB's "Sunshine Hearing" that company-owned hazardous materials (hazmat) transported on company aircraft weren't subject to the dangerous goods carriage restrictions.

So there was a culture of ignoring the regulations - apparently also at the air carriers Jordan worked at prior to ValuJet - when in came to carrying "comat" (company material) even if it was hazmat

The J7 contract maintenace provider Sabre Tech (out of business due to neglegence in 592) was preparing for an inspection by CO. Sabre Tech management instructed MIA managers to clean up the shops prior to the CO visit. One of the shipping clerks packed up the O2 canisters, improperly, and attempted to ship the box labeled HAZMAT via "comat" on Friday May 10, 1996. A J7 Capt. denied the "comat" b/c J7 was not certified to carry HAZMAT and the shippment was returned to Sabre Tech. The same individual was instructed to repacked the shippment in a different box intentionally mislabeling (admittedly to the Grand Jury) the shipment. The airway bill indictated "Empty O2 Canisters". The Grand Jury indicted 3 individuals, 1 convicted of 110 counts of manslaughter and the other 2 fugitives returning to their home country.

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/1999/oig1899.htm

http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/am/...ub=am&mon=0999&file=amnotebook.htm

Lewis Jordan is not to be mistaken for these individuals. The statement of J7 ignoring the regulations is not accurate. The big bombshell in this was mistakes by the FAA which led to the ATL FSDO and other areas within the FAA being reorganized.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 17):
Let's review: when a reporter wants to make a point and make it sound authoritative, he/she writes, "Experts say".

Idiots

Well said, I remember the the dumba$$ reporter from the Cleveland Plain Dealer saying J7 only used 2 pilots on the DC-9 instead of 3 pilots.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 20):
I agree but let the people have thier say. Not everything is "truly" covered in the NTSB reports.



Very true, espeically, when politics are involved.
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 7:29 am

My thoughts: I was on valujet a few days before the crash. My grandpa died the day I flew on them.. the service I recieved was excellent, and I hope the dead are resting in piece.

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5349
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 33):
Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 31):
Well said, I remember the the dumba$$ reporter from the Cleveland Plain Dealer saying J7 only used 2 pilots on the DC-9 instead of 3 pilots.

I'm pretty sure that the "dumb ass reporter" is right. Unless there was an aircraft mod that came out that extended the flight deck of the DC-9 and added an engineers panel.

You're kidding, right? I hope?

The poster was saying that the reporter was suggesting that ValuJet, *unlike other airlines*, used only two pilots, *instead of the "three" that others used on the DC9*. That sure sounds like "dumbass" reporting to me, because all carriers use only 2 pilots on the DC9. The reporter was trying to impugn ValuJet's safety standards, and, like a dumbass, didn't bother to check the facts before impugning away.

[Edited 2006-05-12 00:51:30]
 
September11
Posts: 3293
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:49 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 8:08 am

I do recall that ValuJet was grounded by the FAA for maintenance violations. Was it few days or weeks after Flight 592?
Airliners.net of the Future
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 31):
Well said, I remember the the dumba$$ reporter from the Cleveland Plain Dealer saying J7 only used 2 pilots on the DC-9 instead of 3 pilots.

Um, but the DC-9 IS crewed by 2 pilots, not 3. I'm pretty sure that Douglas did not feel the need, and in all of my flying days on DC-9's I NEVER remember there being a Flight Engineer. Now, I COULD be wrong, but I'm 100% positive that I'm not. bigthumbsup 

Quoting September11 (Reply 35):
I do recall that ValuJet was grounded by the FAA for maintenance violations. Was it few days or weeks after Flight 592?

It was a voluntary shutdown, temporarily. They knew that if the FAA pulled their certificate, they would never get it back because A LOT more would be found. Voluntarily grounding your fleet for a couple months is less expensive than having to cut through the red tape to get it back, if it were to ever happen.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 29):

Very frustrating, considering that only 40 bodies were recovered. The rest were swallowed up and sit somewhere in like 100 feet of Everglade swamp.

Eastern had a DC-8 crash into Lake Pontchartrain (killing 58) where supposedly the only piece they ever found was a galley door.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting ILOVEA340 (Reply 2):
I can gaurentee you that 99% of PAX never make the Valuejet-AirTran connection.

I was staying with a friend in NY a few months ago when AirTran announced new service out of White Plains, not far from her house in Westchester. She doesn't follow airlines, but does her share of flying. First thing she said when it was on the news, "That's Valujet, isn't it?" I was surprised she knew it, but the public has a long memory.
International Homo of Mystery
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 9:49 am

This shows you how times change.

WSB here in Atlanta had a segment on the anniversary of the crash. At the time of the crash, WSB was a big Delta promoter (WSB is owned by Cox Communications, and at one point, one of the Cox sisters was on the board of Delta). Up until a few years ago, any mention on WSB of any minor incident involving AirTran would always include "The airline formerly known as Valujet" somewhere in the piece. I have not heard WSB use that line in a few years now. AirTran has replaced Delta as a sponsor of some community events WSB (and some other event sponsored by other local TV stations) sponsors; plus WSB's consumer guru Clark Howard has been raving about AirTran for several years now.

The crash also show how two-faced the media and Wall Street is. Before the crash, Valujet was a media and Wall Street darling. After the crash, they became a pariah.

I've heard a few stories when I worked @ FL from folks who were working there on the day of 592. One of them had a shrine to Valujet in their garage, I should say the walls of the entire garage were a shrine. I also knew some folks that were former Valujet employees who never went back when they restarted. For some, it was easy to go back, others, they just couldn't.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 39):
I've heard a few stories when I worked @ FL from folks who were working there on the day of 592. One of them had a shrine to Valujet in their garage, I should say the walls of the entire garage were a shrine. I also knew some folks that were former Valujet employees who never went back when they restarted. For some, it was easy to go back, others, they just couldn't.

The Station Manager of MIA couldn't stand to work there anymore and had to move to be the STM in IAD before eventually leaving the company, IIRC. After the crash, the real "bad guys", Valujet's execs(Fornaro and Co.) tried to pinpoint her and make her the scapegoat or sacrificial lamb to save their own hides. But the FAA didn't bite and kept the pressure on management, saying that despite what they say, it was they who were ultimately responsible for ensuring that the right people kept the canisters off the plane, despite who packaged it. The groundcrew in MIA was the last line of defense, so to speak, and J7 management should have ensured those people did their jobs right. I believe it wasn't long after she went to IAD that she left because many high-ups in J7/FL still pinpointed her.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting N501US (Reply 13):
Of course it failed to mention that since becoming AirTran they have completely changed their fleet, have experienced consistent profits, and a good safety record.

ValuJet was much more profitable than AirTran, AFAIK. That's the problem, they put profits before safety and 110 people had to pay for such senseless behavior.

AAndrew
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 12:53 pm

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 16):
It is a very simple group of pillars made from concrete blocks. I like the design but it would be more fitting to have it reconstructed with stone or marble. I would definately contribute to an effort to upgrade the memorial.

Nobody wants to pony up the money. They were 'lucky' that a bunch of FIU students were willing to donate their time and energy for what materials were donated. It's not monolithic or never ending time inspiring, but I think for what it does, it does a supurb job.

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 16):
The last time I stopped by the memorial on my way home from bike riding in Shark Valley it had been vandalized.

I wish FWMD would setup a web cam on the 'dam' nearby with IR. Catching those bastards will not likely happen, but I hope they suffer for what they did. If FWMD steps up, and it happens again, the Micousoukee PD will have what they need to fry the f-ers.
This space intentionally left blank
 
RiddlePilot215
Posts: 280
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:19 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 2:33 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 1):
592 is something that will always hang above AirTran, but as en employee I know that we have moved so very far away from what Valujet was. I hope that some of the victims families find some solace in the fact that due to this tragedy, there have been so many rule changes that many more lives have been saved.

But you guys have Forklift Joe!

On a serious note however. It may have only been 10 years, however I think as a pilot, such incidents remain fresh in our minds, as our Aero Sci professors plaster in our heads the importance of CRM, how to handle yourself in an emergency situation, and to always know what your carrying, and the risks involved in doing so. All the lost souls on that airplane will go down as heros in my book, as their deaths helped to shape the future of air traffic for the better. It's sad new rules have to be written in red, before they're solidified in ink, however we cannot learn without such tragic mistakes happening.

I actually had the chance to fly over the crash site on my solo XC down to Marathon Key....there's really nothing left out there, just the memories of what happened, and how traumatizing it must have been for everybody on board to know of their impending deaths...

It wasn't so much Valujet's fault as it was just a lack of control and proper storage of volatile materials onboard a passenger airliner. In the wake however, I think Air Tran has done an amazing job, and in many ways are industry leaders in service, quality, and professionalism. Go Citrus, Go!
God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 9:06 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 35):
Um, but the DC-9 IS crewed by 2 pilots, not 3. I'm pretty sure that Douglas did not feel the need, and in all of my flying days on DC-9's I NEVER remember there being a Flight Engineer. Now, I COULD be wrong, but I'm 100% positive that I'm not.

Oh yes, you are correct. I was replying to the previous post on incompetence of the media's reporting. J7 demanded a retraction which went unheard until McDonnell Douglas sued the reporter not the paper the reporter. What's ironic is when a person or organization makes an inaccurate statement it's libel; when the media does the same it's their First Amendment right.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 39):
After the crash, the real "bad guys", Valujet's execs(Fornaro and Co.) tried to pinpoint her and make her the scapegoat or sacrificial lamb to save their own hides.

LOL, first off the J7 MIA station manger was a "he" not a "her" and had become friends with the crew over time. He and the gate agents were the last ones to see the crew and pax as they collected the boarding passes and closed the aircraft. Obviously, they were emotionally distraught where both took a leave of absence 3-4 months later. I was no longer assigned to the case after November '96.

As for Fornaro, he never worked for ValuJet, he was hired as President of AirTran in 3/99 and according to the link below, he worked for US Airways at the time of the accident.

http://investor.airtran.com/phoenix....tml?c=64267&p=irol-govBio&ID=18654
 
dizzy8
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:33 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Fri May 12, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
It would certainly not have happened in Europe BTW

The SaberTech employees WERE trained on Hazmat (DGR) but decided that the procedure was inconvenient in this instance. Human nature is such that one tends to become complacent whilst performing repeated tasks and this tendency transcends any arbitrarily assigned political borders. Germans are not infallible.

http://www.writer-tech.com/pages/summaries/summduss.htm

The Turkish DC-10 accident in Paris comes to mind. How many times had that baggage smasher (luggage handler) closed a bin door? It takes only 1/2 seconds of thoughtlessness to do a great deal of damage. (Granted the McDonnell-Douglas engineers must have had a cumulative brain-"flatulence" when they designed the cargo door.)

The ValuJet crash was the result of poor judgement on the part of a couple of employees who were trusted to do their job in a safe manner. The aftermath was simply a political football put into play by Delta Air lines in an effort to run ValuJet out of Atlanta / business.

Ironically, DL (and indeed LH) today is desperately trying to adopt a business model much like the one they criticized as being "inherently dangerous" during the tenure of ValuJet.
dizzy8
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:47 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Sat May 13, 2006 12:58 am

I was an J7 Flight Attendant from Oct. 95 till the shutdown mid June 96. J7 violated a lot of safety procedures. Any J7 employees at the time can back that up on a number of occasions. One of the flight attendants on 592 was my flight attendant trainging classmate. Rest in peace!

Long live the original J7 employees!

AASTEW
 
TERRA
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 2:37 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Sat May 13, 2006 6:38 am

10 years, my god time flies.

This incident at least gave the industry a huge shake up and has been a bench mark for airlines globally ever since. I use the Valuejet crash when teaching my IATA Cat6 & Cat10 DG courses. The radio transmissions from the stricken bird provide a clear reasoning behind the need for such training to any student.

The industry always had a problem with DG from m/t units as engineers think they can put a comat sticker on a box and fling it on an aircraft as they feel they are exempted from the ICAO DG regulations......... In some cases i am sure this is still the case today.  whistleblower   banghead 
 
Lowsonboy
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 10:37 pm

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Sat May 13, 2006 8:13 am

Last time I checked this was supposed to be a thread about the Valujet 592 tragedy 10 years ago... maybe the title hints at that... not for pathetic bullying and sniping at each other. At the risk of sounding patronising and sanctimonious to those 2 or 3 posters above who want to lower the tone of the thread I would say, grow up, and find somewhere else to have your playground arguments.
 
Scotland1979
Crew
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:19 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Sat May 13, 2006 9:48 am

I remember it very well... It was 2 big news happened in Florida on the same day.

First it was the plane that crashed in Florida on May 11, 1996

Second, it was Florida pitcher AL Leiter tossed an NO-HITTER that night (May 11, 1996) in Florida as well, 11-0 over Colorado Rockies.

I do not know which one Floridans felt the most (the crash or the no-hitter)

Coincidence??

Frank Robitaille
Jesus said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" - John 14:6
 
Cactus739
Posts: 2245
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:41 am

RE: ValuJet Crash - 10 Years Ago Today

Sat May 13, 2006 12:15 pm

10 years..... hard to believe its been such a long time.... I remember seeing about the crash on CNN and having no clue who Valujet was....

Unfortunately though... this childish bickering between three people on here (I won't name them but you know who you are kids...) have turned this into the worst memorial thread ever..... such a shame they couldn't put their issues aside and leave that for another thread...

May the victims of 592 rest in peace.....
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos