FlyPNS1
Topic Author
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Thu May 11, 2006 11:15 pm

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/060511/98932.html

More domestic expansion for DL at JFK including two new routes PWM-JFK and MHT-JFK. It'll be interesting to see how this massive expansion goes. I think DL is going a little overboard on some routes, but we'll see how many of these last a year.
 
sspontak
Posts: 484
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:42 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Thu May 11, 2006 11:27 pm

This morning there was a Jet Blue commercial with a message saying that they will be starting JFK - Portland Maine service soon. Did Jet Blue announce this already?
Go Delta!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Thu May 11, 2006 11:32 pm

This really isn’t the risk a lot of you want to make it out to be. DL has carried lots of traffic in and out of the NE for years. At worst, all they will do is connect traffic that was going through CVG or ATL and route it over JFK. Since most of DL’s domestic flights from JFK have relied entirely on local traffic since DL has served very little north or JFK, they will at best held connect traffic to their growing transcontinental and their resized Florida flights plus all of the connections along the east coast that are currently flowing over EWR and PHL. At best, they’ll attract lots of new local and flow international traffic to/through JFK. There is no doubt that they cannot sustain a large int’l presence without a lot more cities than they have served before which is why they have to build up the domestic operation in order to make the int’l flights work. Given that they will serve most of the top 50 domestic markets, they should have no problem making their operation work.

And before you all comment about the facility, DL will obviously measure the effectiveness of this buildup and make a decision over the winter and into the spring about how much they need to build out/replace/refurbish their current facility. I don’t think anyone doubts they need better facilities and DL was supposedly very close to signing up for an expensive facility similar to what AA did prior to 9/11. DL didn’t sign up for a new terminal but got the pilot contract instead. AA signed up for massively expensive new facilities at JFK and MIA as well as the new int’l terminal at DFW. DL will build new facilities at JFK in time but they will have to get out of BK and reduce their facilities costs elsewhere, such as in BOS.
 
panam330
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Thu May 11, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Sspontak (Reply 1):
This morning there was a Jet Blue commercial with a message saying that they will be starting JFK - Portland Maine service soon. Did Jet Blue announce this already?

Long ago- service starts May 23, with I believe 4 daily A320s.
 
WMUPilot
Posts: 1428
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:48 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Thu May 11, 2006 11:44 pm

Fly Delta out of PWM on a cramped 50 Comair regional jet, or ride on a nice comfortable A320 with personal TVs and full service from an award winning cabin staff....now that's a tough choice.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Thu May 11, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 4):
Fly Delta out of PWM on a cramped 50 Comair regional jet,

DL won't be using those planes on PWM-JFK. Guess reading the actual PR can actually be of help  Wink .

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
I think DL is going a little overboard on some routes, but we'll see how many of these last a year.

I think they will all last as far as routes go. As far as the frequency goes, however, I'd suspect, almost expect, all the routes that will have 4 daily flights to go down to 3 daily flights.
And with only DHC-8s being used, the risk is obviously not as high as with CRJs, although still existant.
 
B742
Posts: 3559
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:48 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 12:12 am

Nice to see DL expanding in JFK  Smile

Can anyone give me a list of all the destinations and aircraft served from JFK and BOS?  Smile

Rob!  wave 
 
LawnDart
Posts: 861
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:33 pm

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 4):
Fly Delta out of PWM on a cramped 50 Comair regional jet, or ride on a nice comfortable A320 with personal TVs and full service from an award winning cabin staff....now that's a tough choice.

Connect from DL's new PWM service to JFK and fly on to AMS/ATH/BCN/BUD/FCO/FRA/GRU/MAD/MXP/NCE/ETC/ETC or...

ride on a nice comfortable A320 with personal TVs and then swim to AMS/ATH/BCN/BUD/FCO/FRA/GRU/MAD/MXP/NCE/ETC/ETC

Now that's a tough choice!

The DL service is aimed more at connecting passengers (as is the B6 service, frankly), and the DL service will be on cramped -8s (Freedom Air).
 
FlyPNS1
Topic Author
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 7):
Connect from DL's new PWM service to JFK and fly on to AMS/ATH/BCN/BUD/FCO/FRA/GRU/MAD/MXP/NCE/ETC/ETC or...

ride on a nice comfortable A320 with personal TVs and then swim to AMS/ATH/BCN/BUD/FCO/FRA/GRU/MAD/MXP/NCE/ETC/ETC

Now that's a tough choice!

However, DL is offering 4 daily flights from PWM to JFK. At most, 2 of them will connect to the European bank meaning the other two flights will rely mostly on O+D or domestic connections.

So if you want to fly PWM-RDU, you could fly on B6 and get an A320/E190 or get DL and a CRJ/DH8. Not such a tough choice.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 12:26 am

From BOS:
ATL, BWI, BGR, BDA, CUN, CHS, CVG, CMH, FLL, RSW,
YFC, GSO, YHZ, JAX, LAS, LAX, BNA, NAS, JFK, LGA,
ORF, MCO, YQB, SLC, SAV, TPA, DCA, PBI
Note that some of those have not started yet. Same goes for JFK, from where DL flies to:
ACA, ALB, AMS, AUA, ATH, ATL, AUS, BWI, BCN, TXL,
BOS, BRU, BUD, BUF, CHS, ORD, CVG, CMH, CLE, CMH,
DTW, DUB, FLL, RSW, IND, IST, KBP, LAS, LAX, SJD,
MAD, MHT, MAN, MEX, MIA, MXP, YUL, SVO, BNA, NCE,
ORF, MCO, CDG, PIT, PWM, PVD, PVR, RDU, RIC, ROC,
FCO, STL, SLC, SAN, SFO, SJU, STI, SDQ, SEA, SNN,
SYR, TPA, YYZ, VCE, IAD, DCA, PBI

That should be all, if I haven't missed any.

[Edited 2006-05-11 17:27:41]
 
FlyPNS1
Topic Author
Posts: 5260
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 9):
ACA, ALB, AMS, AUA, ATH, ATL, AUS, BWI, BCN, TXL,
BOS, BRU, BUD, BUF, CHS, ORD, CVG, CMH, CLE, CMH,
DTW, DUB, FLL, RSW, IND, IST, KBP, LAS, LAX, SJD,
MAD, MHT, MAN, MEX, MIA, MXP, YUL, SVO, BNA, NCE,
ORF, MCO, CDG, PIT, PWM, PVD, PVR, RDU, RIC, ROC,
FCO, STL, SLC, SAN, SFO, SJU, STI, SDQ, SEA, SNN,
SYR, TPA, YYZ, VCE, IAD, DCA, PBI


Minor correction...add GRU (starts in June) and remove STL and RSW.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
Minor correction...add GRU (starts in June) and remove STL and RSW.

Thanks for that. Had completely forgotten about GRU and that RSW is LGA-only. STL is still shown in the PDF-schedule, though admittedly I didn't pay attention to any "Disc. eff 123" notes.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 12:47 am

At least some of DL’s PWM service will be on CRJs. However, keep in mind that almost all of the intra-northeast service on every other carrier is on regional jets or turboprops. Other than BOS, CO has a couple mainline flights north of EWR; US has a bit more mainline service from PHL and DCA to the north but what DL is offering is really quite competitive with the rest of the industry.

Remember, B6 is the carrier that has just announced that their strategy of flying longhaul domestic and Florida markets 20 times a day is not profitable. Yes, they will get good yields on short haul routes within the NE but the local market is only so big even with low fares. Instead, they will be carrying lots of connecting passengers over JFK at costs that are approaching those of the legacy carriers.

RJs are the right size aircraft for the NE shorthaul markets and are especially well-suited to feed the international traffic DL is developing.

Also, do not assume that DL is building a domestic connecting base just for itself and its European operation. I’m sure they make good money providing feed to all of the international carriers serving JFK in addition to what DL needs. DL sets the prorate agreements that establish what price carriers pay to connect to their flights and they control the inventory so they have every possibility of making money connecting traffic to other airlines as well as their own.

And as for DL’s current int’l schedule, I don’t think you’ve seen the last of DL’s int’l expansion. They are certain to be announcing some warm weather destinations to begin serving this winter in order to balance out their European routes. You can’t just park a bunch of 767s for the winter but there are also good markets which DL will certainly enter.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
And as for DL�s current int�l schedule, I don�t think you�ve seen the last of DL�s int�l expansion. They are certain to be announcing some warm weather destinations to begin serving this winter in order to balance out their European routes. You can�t just park a bunch of 767s for the winter but there are also good markets which DL will certainly enter.

Good point, although I doubt it will be that much new service. After all, the off-season to Europe will also be used to upgrade interiors on the 767s, which will take a couple out of service anyway; and the most interesting markets like Argentina and Brazil can only see equipment upgrades, but not additional flights.
That said, the second flight on ATL-SCL will likely return, and perhaps even be daily instead of 3x weekly last winter, and the new flight to UIO and Guayaquil could be upgraded to a 763 from the 757, and perhaps the long rumored 767 to BOG. Of course, DL could also add JFK-SCL or JFK-LIM, though those are likely more year-round routes.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 1:06 am

``Delta continues to demonstrate to our customers why we are New York's airline with the addition of more new flights to more destinations than any carrier in the market,'' said Bob Cortelyou, Delta's vice president -- Network Planning.

Is he saying DL has the most flights to the most destinations in the NY "market"? I know this has been discussed recently, but I wonder how true that is given CO's presence in the "market".
 
UN_B732
Posts: 3529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:57 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 1:14 am

MHT could work well I think, even though Delta isn't an LCC. This will be the best trans-atlantic connection opportunity at Manchester, in my opinion.
It looks like JFK-BTV is now double daily.
-Mr. X
What now?
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 1:26 am

Is there any chance of seeing some of the mid sized cities in the midwest getting into this action at JFK? I would think 2x daily from cities like FWA, DAY, FNT, SBN....and more could bring in a healthy mix of O/D and connecting Int'l traffic.

Is there just one bank of International flights or are there more?? Info greatly appreciated!

Ryan
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 2):
And before you all comment about the facility, DL will obviously measure the effectiveness of this buildup and make a decision over the winter and into the spring about how much they need to build out/replace/refurbish their current facility. I don’t think anyone doubts they need better facilities and DL was supposedly very close to signing up for an expensive facility similar to what AA did prior to 9/11. DL didn’t sign up for a new terminal but got the pilot contract instead

The Delta plan from '99-'00 did not involve a new terminal, they were going to move their International and some Domestic mainline flights to T-4, They were going to pay to expand both concourses of T-4. The foriegn carriers in T-4 West would move to an expanded T-4 East Concourse, Delta would have then take over the entire expanded T-4 West Concourse which would have been between 10 and 15 gates.

They would then have torn down T-3 to create a hardstand parking area, they would have then expanded T-2 by 4 or 5 gates and concentrated most RJs at T-2.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
The Delta plan from '99-'00 did not involve a new terminal, they were going to move their International and some Domestic mainline flights to T-4, They were going to pay to expand both concourses of T-4. The foriegn carriers in T-4 West would move to an expanded T-4 East Concourse, Delta would have then take over the entire expanded T-4 West Concourse which would have been between 10 and 15 gates.

They would then have torn down T-3 to create a hardstand parking area, they would have then expanded T-2 by 4 or 5 gates and concentrated most RJs at T-2.

That sounds about right. IIRC, DL's new facilities were to consist of 26 gate positions, which would have been 12 at T-2 (narrowbodies only), and 14 at T-4West (widebodies and all int'l flights), while in the middle there would have been 20 hardstands, primarily for RJs. Too bad that there were never any drawings of the proposed terminals, though from looking at it in Google Earth, it's at least obvious that the required space is there.
 
slider
Posts: 6805
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
``Delta continues to demonstrate to our customers why we are New York's airline with the addition of more new flights to more destinations than any carrier in the market,'' said Bob Cortelyou, Delta's vice president -- Network Planning.

Is he saying DL has the most flights to the most destinations in the NY "market"? I know this has been discussed recently, but I wonder how true that is given CO's presence in the "market".

It's not. Just more of DL's efforts to keep telling a lie enough until it gets traction.

Adding more connect markets to JFK to feed international flights without having a true connecting hub?

Yeah. That worked really well for TWA back in the day....and it's a construct that is about 30 years outdated.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 4):
Fly Delta out of PWM on a cramped 50 Comair regional jet,

DL won't be using those planes on PWM-JFK. Guess reading the actual PR can actually be of help .

The press release I read says that's the plan. Dash-8's????? I can't imagine what the folks Atlanta are thinking. There is no way we can compete with B6 and their A320's with Dash 8's and RJ's. Sometimes this company embarrasses me to the core.



Delta's expanded service in the Northeast will be operated by Delta Connection carriers Comair and Freedom Airlines using a mix of 50-seat Bombardier regional jets and 37-seat DeHavilland Dash-8 turboprops.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 4):
Fly Delta out of PWM on a cramped 50 Comair regional jet, or ride on a nice comfortable A320 with personal TVs and full service from an award winning cabin staff....now that's a tough choice.



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 20):
The press release I read says that's the plan. Dash-8's????? I can't imagine what the folks Atlanta are thinking. There is no way we can compete with B6 and their A320's with Dash 8's and RJ's. Sometimes this company embarrasses me to the core

The way you compete is by funneling that traffic to Europe. And if you're that "embarassed", rather then gripe on a message board convey your thoughts to a manager or quit.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 20):
The press release I read says that's the plan. Dash-8's????? I can't imagine what the folks Atlanta are thinking. There is no way we can compete with B6 and their A320's with Dash 8's and RJ's. Sometimes this company embarrasses me to the core.

It's not about competing with B6, it's about feeding the longhaul network and the transcons from JFK. But anyway, let's look at some facts:
-The Dashs are props, and way more fuel efficient than RJs.
-The Dashs only have 37 seats to fill instead of 50 on the CRJs. Depending on how you see it, this either means, 1 more flight for the same number of seats, or less seats to fill on a given number of flights.
-Speed is not a factor on most of the Dash routes.
-Everybody keeps on saying how RJ's svck a$$, yet when an airline actually deploys something different, RJs are suddenly better again? Just shows that whatever DL tries to do, it is wrong, right?

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
``Delta continues to demonstrate to our customers why we are New York's airline with the addition of more new flights to more destinations than any carrier in the market,'' said Bob Cortelyou, Delta's vice president -- Network Planning.

Is he saying DL has the most flights to the most destinations in the NY "market"? I know this has been discussed recently, but I wonder how true that is given CO's presence in the "market".

First things first, they don't say THE or THE #1 airline for NY, just "New York's airline". Not a real comparison, IMHO. And as far as the second part, well, DL is indeed actually adding more destinations than other carriers from NYC. Sure CO is adding destinations as well, but just not at a rate as high as DL. But I guess such slogans are always up for different interpretations  Wink .
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 3:15 am

MHT is in the mix as a new city and should be a good market.

While there wasn’t going to be a unique new DL terminal, taking a sizable portion of T-4 was going to come at a high price. Not sure what the options are now but if this stuff works, it will require a lot more gates.

TO the question of whether DL is operating multiple banks, DL has converted its operation at JFK to a full banked operation. When developing a market, a full banked hub makes sense. Once it is large and established, it can become a rolling, unbanked hub. As CO has shown at EWR, you can schedule transatlantic departures over a much larger period than is typically done at JFK. In ATL, DL has its first transatlantic departure at 3.30 pm and the last near 11 pm. You can still get into JFK from the west coast by 3 pm, making 3.30-3.45 pm transatlantic departures possible from JFK. Many Latin flights and flights to Africa or the Middle East as well as to some western European destinations can leave as late as 11 pm so DL can get a lot of utilization out of their current facility. Arrivals from Europe can start as soon as noon and go until 7 pm so you can easily put three banks of transatlantic flights into JFK. DL right now is doing two with many of the foreign carriers operating later than DL.

And if they start popping 777s in there and going to Asia, you can crank that activity up as early as mid to late morning and keep it going long after the sun goes down with returns coming in before the sun comes up the next day (different aircraft than went out the night before) going into early evening.

There is huge potential for Delta at JFK which is why I think their management is committing so much attention to the city.

Long live NYC!
 
JFKviaPHX
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:31 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 4:10 am

Dl will use them to feed the international flights. Does it make more sense to have you passangers for these flights connecting interline from T6 to T2+3 or fly directly to DL and connect out? Keeping the passangers within your system makes more sense.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 22):
It's not about competing with B6, it's about feeding the longhaul network and the transcons from JFK. But anyway, let's look at some facts:
-The Dashs are props, and way more fuel efficient than RJs.

People prefer jets. Period.

Furthermore, Delta will not be able to generate enough additional international feed to sustain these flights. Continental long ago established feed from these smaller communities to Europe, and Continental enjoys significant connectivity to their domestic network. For these flights to work for Delta, domestic connecting customers must be part of the plan.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 21):
rather then gripe on a message board convey your thoughts to a manager or quit.

The purpose of message board is to express yourself. If you don't like what others write, move on. I have 15 years with this company. The first ten years were great. These past five years, we have shot ourselves in the foot to the point that we are now nearly out of business. I voice my opinion to management when it is asked for. It doesn't pay to do so whenever I want to. As I am extremely loyal and an exceptional employee (never received a negative review or comment in my entire career here), I am part of the solution not part of the problem.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 4:30 am

Very good for Delta!!! Oh and as for the award winning staff at B6 don't make me laugh. What's so special about the way they hand out their chips?
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
Also, do not assume that DL is building a domestic connecting base just for itself and its European operation. I’m sure they make good money providing feed to all of the international carriers serving JFK in addition to what DL needs. DL sets the prorate agreements that establish what price carriers pay to connect to their flights and they control the inventory so they have every possibility of making money connecting traffic to other airlines as well as their own.

Unless those carriers at JFK are SkyTeam members or independent from other alliances (e.g. Uzbekistan Airways), there isn't much opportunity to connect to other foreign carriers. Over the past several years as the alliances have strengthened, the amount of interlining has dropped drastically (in many cases over 90%). And regardless of whether DL sets the prorate agreement or not, these are low mileage destinations connecting to overseas routes. The amount of revenue they will retain will be minimal.

While DL's JFK domestic operation is geared more toward connecting to the international flights, you need some local traffic or the flight is going to be terrible. In addition, when you have 3-4 departures per day into JFK, the need for local traffic grows exponentially.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 6:01 am

of course you need local traffic and DL will get it. But you are SO wrong if you don't think DL feeds alot of connecting passengers to other carriers at JFK. Int'l fares still allow ANY carrier that can provide service to complete part of the itinerary. There are many carriers that need feed at JFK that only DL provides whether they are alliance partners or not. DL's growth is obviously designed for DL's needs but every new domestic flight DL adds increases the connectivity for int'l carriers and makes JFK more attractive.

Do you honestly think British Airways and Lufthansa totally rely on local traffic or AirTran to support their flights in ATL? Heck no, they get feed from DL and DL provides it because that is the way int'l air tranportation works.... and it started that way long before alliances were ever born. Conversely, DL connects passengers to BA and LH in their European hubs even though there is no partner relationship. Granted, most DL transatlantic European connections are in CDG to AF but there are many, many carriers that only fly to the US at JFK. Stand at the gate in NRT and ask the passengers coming off of DL's flight which carrier they are connecting to and almost all will be going to carriers that are not DL partners. Since DL serves more points from JFK than any other carrier, they are going to provide connections to other airlines unless that carrier has a US partner that flies the same route as DL and offers comparable pricing. Alliances ENHANCE interline connections but they don't eliminate them from non-partners.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 18):
Too bad that there were never any drawings of the proposed terminals

There were in the NY Times Metro Section from '99 or 2000, I might have a clipping of it somewhere buried deep in my closet somewhere.

In my opinion (and Im not really being biased here) I would not look for any kind of serious investment in facilties at JFK by Delta, maybe in five years if DL is still around or did not merge with another carrier. They have Boston which they cannot fill, Orlando that they gave up more than half their gates, LAX in which they are in dispute over the gates they are sitting on most of which are not being used to their fullest, a LGA terminal which looks like a run down Burger King on the inside, and especially Atlanta.

I think if they were going to comitt to a Billion + Dollar Expansion they should be doing it in ATL, Atlanta is their biggest hub and without which they would be nothing. They should build brand new concourses and Terminal to the East of the current Terminal Concourses, where the maintnenance facilities are located.

After they take care of upgrading or replacing their ATL facilities they should then figure out what they are going to do with these 23 year old 757s, 767s and M80s. They need a massive fleet replacement plan, they cannot upgrade their ATL facilities, replace hundreds of 757s and 767s and spend Billions at JFK where they will be 3rd behind AA and B6 in a market where they would be 4th behind CO, AA and B6.

Here's some press releases touting the project that never happened.

http://www.jfk-airport.org/newsdelta1.htm

http://www.conway.com/ssinsider/bbdeal/bd001023.htm
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting WMUPilot (Reply 4):
Fly Delta out of PWM on a cramped 50 Comair regional jet, or ride on a nice comfortable A320 with personal TVs and full service from an award winning cabin staff....now that's a tough choice.

Should my final destination be a B6 city, I would take B6 over a D-8.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
RJs are the right size aircraft for the NE shorthaul markets and are especially well-suited to feed the international traffic DL is developing

Unless it's a high yielding market and priced correctly, yes the RJ is well-suited. DL management team has proven the costly mistakes of the RJ.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
Is he saying DL has the most flights to the most destinations in the NY "market"? I know this has been discussed recently, but I wonder how true that is given CO's presence in the "market".

DL has a strong presense in JFK & LGA along with a moderate presense in EWR. Don't forget HPN is included in NY market.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 29):
There were in the NY Times Metro Section from '99 or 2000, I might have a clipping of it somewhere buried deep in my closet somewhere.

Sure would appreciate that, making my own 'master plan' of thos plans through the help of Google Earth, MS Paint and Photoshop just isn't the same :-P .

Quoting STT757 (Reply 29):
I think if they were going to comitt to a Billion + Dollar Expansion they should be doing it in ATL, Atlanta is their biggest hub and without which they would be nothing. They should build brand new concourses and Terminal to the East of the current Terminal Concourses, where the maintnenance facilities are located.

Well, they are overhauling concourses A and B, which are the most important ones for them. Although to a certain degree, I'd also say that C and D should be torn down and completely rebuild, but aside from other airlines complaining, particularly Air Tran, try to get such plans through the corrupt ATL government that has the final decision on things. Just look at the whole deal about the new International Terminal: Delayed once again, because suddenly the company that was to build wasn't good enough anymore. I'm sure Srbmod could fill you in on the details, but the fact is that those would be 10 nice international gates in a brandnew terminal that DL could really use these days (see the thread about them moving Int'l departures to T).
To sum things up, DL is doing some refurbishments at ATL, mostly just cosmetic, but that's often the most important changes.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 31):
DL is doing some refurbishments at ATL, mostly just cosmetic,

They need a whole new approach in ATL, brand new Terminal and Concourses separate from the current set up. Something fitting of the largest hub in the World, this new tile floor and wall paper is not going to make ATL a International powerhouse.

Something similar to what NWA did in DTW, build their own set-up away from everyone else.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
sspontak
Posts: 484
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:42 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 30):
DL has a strong presense in JFK & LGA along with a moderate presense in EWR. Don't forget HPN is included in NY market.

Delta also has RJ nonstops from Long Island (ISP) to ATL. I think 3 daily.
Go Delta!
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 32):
They need a whole new approach in ATL, brand new Terminal and Concourses separate from the current set up. Something fitting of the largest hub in the World, this new tile floor and wall paper is not going to make ATL a International powerhouse.

At the end of the day, how many people really choose an airline based on the terminal facilities? (just like how many actually know/care about the a/c type they're flying?) Look at CDG - many, many people swear they would never, ever, connect through CDG again after one nightmare experience - well guess what, AF continues to experience record-breaking loads and profits; every time I go through CDG, that place continues to resemble a third-world bazaar, with waves and waves of passengers being disgorged from buses...
 
CMK10
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:56 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 6:57 am

NYC-RDU is really becoming a saturated market. First AA flew JFK-RDU alone, now B6 and DL are throwing their hats into the ring which compliment DL, AA and US out of LGA and AA and CO out of EWR. I guess freedom of choice is a nice perk though.
"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 3934
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 6:59 am

"Something similar to what NWA did in DTW, build their own set-up away from everyone else."

Why?
They are the whole airport. Besides AirTran, they have the whole damn complex. You want the, to build another 100 gates?

Who's gonna fill those gates there now?

You think ATL would be the world's busiest airport . . . or any busier than any other mid-sized city airport if it weren't for DL?

If DL were to leave the current complex for a new one, the current complex would sit very empty for a very long time.

ATL, look to your western neighbors DFW.

PJ
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 32):
They need a whole new approach in ATL, brand new Terminal and Concourses separate from the current set up. Something fitting of the largest hub in the World, this new tile floor and wall paper is not going to make ATL a International powerhouse.

Something similar to what NWA did in DTW, build their own set-up away from everyone else.

I'm not sure the comparison is really a good one. ATL was the model for most hub airports in the US- including the new terminals at DTW. It is a very effective setup- but it needs some updating. Personally, I wish they would expand the concourses making them wider, but I don't think that will happen. The renovation of Concourse C is going ahead, and I think that will make the experience much better. I think the renovation of the Delta ticket lobby will actually make a big improvement, as will the new international terminal when it is finally built.

A more likely event than Delta building a new terminal is for Atlanta to go ahead with the South Terminal, moving all non-Skyteam carriers there.

As for the comment about Atlanta city corruption- certainly there has been corruption in Atlanta, as in most other large cities. However, the current mayor has done an immense amount of work cleaning up city hall, focusing on the livability of the city, and fostering good relationships with business. Having lived in Atlanta until last year, I am a big supporter of her.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5375
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 20):
Dash-8's????? I can't imagine what the folks Atlanta are thinking. There is no way we can compete with B6 and their A320's with Dash 8's and RJ's. Sometimes this company embarrasses me to the core.

I tend to agree with the following statement:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 22):
-Everybody keeps on saying how RJ's svck a$$, yet when an airline actually deploys something different, RJs are suddenly better again? Just shows that whatever DL tries to do, it is wrong, right?

If they didn't do this, someone would be screaming "Delta is so stupid. Instead of giving away the legacy at JFK, they should throw some fuel efficient turboprops onto some shorthaul routes. It's time for some thinking out of the box!"

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 21):
And if you're that "embarassed", rather then gripe on a message board convey your thoughts to a manager or quit.

Well, it IS a message board, isn't it? If that's the message he wants to send, and he ponied up his $25 bucks, then let him say it. He is an employee, so it seems he at least has the right to share an opinion, even if you or I disagree.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 25):
People prefer jets. Period.

While certainly not a perfect example, AS/QX have shown that turboprops can and do work in the right environment. Besides, many QX passengers probably care less about what type of plane they're on and more about the free beer and wine and good service.

If Delta can offer a [better] product then the type of plane shouldn't really matter on these short routes, at least for most people. They (the customer) just need to be retrained.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 26):
Oh and as for the award winning staff at B6 don't make me laugh. What's so special about the way they hand out their chips?

Boy you ARE annoyed.  Smile Anyhow, maybe they actually smile?

-Dave
-Dave
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 7:15 am

btw- does anyone know how Delta plans to handle all these new RJ's and turboprops at JFK? Are there enough stands at the regional gates at T-3? The bus situation that I've observed there is pretty pathetic. Do they have any plans to improve that?
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 36):
They are the whole airport. Besides AirTran, they have the whole damn complex. You want the, to build another 100 gates?



Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 36):
Who's gonna fill those gates there now?

You tear down the majority of the 25 year old Gates DL is using now.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Cmk10 (Reply 35):
NYC-RDU is really becoming a saturated market. First AA flew JFK-RDU alone, now B6 and DL are throwing their hats into the ring which compliment DL, AA and US out of LGA and AA and CO out of EWR. I guess freedom of choice is a nice perk though.

DL has operated JFK-RDU for years. This is not a new route.

Jeremy
 
TokyoNarita
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:30 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 7:58 am

How is Freedom (Mesa)'s reliability these days? It has been known to have some serious reliability issues in the past. Quite frankly, If I was flying international, I don't think I want anything to do with MESA period. Also, I wouldn't want to end up in a turboprop and get tossed around at 16000ft in the Northeast after 10-12 hours of international flying OR enjoy the pleasure of wearing the same underwear for 5 days in 115F Bombay heat because my little Dash couldn't take my international bags out of PWM...I may want to stick with EWR on this one. Just my opinion. I like Delta, but it just doesn't sound like a smart decision to throw a bunch of turboprops where majority of the passengers are going to be long haul international connections with tons of heavy bags.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2006-05-12 01:14:50]
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 8):
However, DL is offering 4 daily flights from PWM to JFK. At most, 2 of them will connect to the European bank meaning the other two flights will rely mostly on O+D or domestic connections.

So if you want to fly PWM-RDU, you could fly on B6 and get an A320/E190 or get DL and a CRJ/DH8. Not such a tough choice.

Given that the schedules aren't even loaded for DL yet, wouldn't the words "I speculate" go well with your statement?

However, this is old news, as this was first reported, what, 2 months ago, I believe.

Quoting Slider (Reply 19):
It's not. Just more of DL's efforts to keep telling a lie enough until it gets traction.

I don't see CO putting out a release saying that they are adding this many flights to and through the "market." Did you? The key word there is ADDING.

Quoting Slider (Reply 19):
Adding more connect markets to JFK to feed international flights without having a true connecting hub?

Obviously, its working, as they are increasing traffic through JFK. Therefore, I would say that JFK is a true connecting hub for DL.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 20):
There is no way we can compete with B6 and their A320's with Dash 8's and RJ's. Sometimes this company embarrasses me to the core.

Considering the fact that if you want to fly internationally out of JFK, you can either buy a ticket from DL and have a seemless transition of flights and bags to your final destination, or you can fly on an A320 and have to buy 2 seperate tickets on B6 and DL, as well have to re-check your bags and cover your own butt throughout the entire process, as any hiccups enroute does not validate the other carrier to accomodate you. Doesn't seem so embarrassing now, does it? sarcastic 

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 25):
People prefer jets. Period.

No, people prefer getting from Point A to Point B in a convenient schedule and as expeditiously as possible. With the exception of a.net nerds, no one really cares whether its a Dash 8 or RJ. Otherwise, Skywest, Gulfstream, ASA, American Eagle, Great Lakes, Horizon, and many other airlines that operate turboprops in some fashion would be in quite a pickle. Period.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 32):
They need a whole new approach in ATL, brand new Terminal and Concourses separate from the current set up. Something fitting of the largest hub in the World, this new tile floor and wall paper is not going to make ATL a International powerhouse.

Something similar to what NWA did in DTW, build their own set-up away from everyone else.

Why? Of approximately 160 gates in ATL, excluding Concourse E(providing Concourse T with 16 gates and ABCD with 36 each, Delta owns roughly 110 of them, on all concourses. To set up a new terminal away from everyone else would require them to basically create an entirely new airport.

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 39):
The bus situation that I've observed there is pretty pathetic.

Are you referring to the LGA operation, because I don't remember JFK having that set-up, although I've only been there a few times, I've always stepped off the plane and in 10 steps was inside the terminal. All the planes should be able to pull in under the T3 overhang where all the RJ's currently park. Remember, they won't all be in at the same time.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 32):
They need a whole new approach in ATL, brand new Terminal and Concourses separate from the current set up. Something fitting of the largest hub in the World, this new tile floor and wall paper is not going to make ATL a International powerhouse.

Something similar to what NWA did in DTW, build their own set-up away from everyone else.

ATL is still one of, if not the idel terminal layout. And as far as DL having an own set-up goes, wait for ATL to finally go ahead with the South Terminal. Once that happens, watch all non-Skyteam domestic carriers move there, and also see Int'l carrier stay in the Int'l Terminal and Concourse F, thereby giving DL the T-Gates, and Concourses A, B, C, D, and E, all to themselves. Rebuilding the whole thing for a new layout would just be a whole waste of space. The only thing that DL could do would be to widen Concourses A and B a bit, enough to allow for the addition of moving sidewalks. But rebuilding everything, hell no!

Quoting Cmk10 (Reply 35):
NYC-RDU is really becoming a saturated market. First AA flew JFK-RDU alone, now B6 and DL are throwing their hats into the ring which compliment DL, AA and US out of LGA and AA and CO out of EWR. I guess freedom of choice is a nice perk though.

DL has thrown their hat into that ring long before B6 even considered RDU.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 9:03 am

Compare ATL to the nightmare which is DFW or ORD or ... in connecting facilities. And if DL did in ATL what NW did in DTW, the concourse would be three miles long.  Smile ATL works extraordinarily well and is a very low cost airport to boot. Depeaking the hub has removed some of the huge concourse overcrowding but ATL is still a very busy and inexpensive airport.... exactly what DL needs to succeed.

As has been mentioned, DL does use RJs or turboprops to JFK but B6 doesn't cooperate with anyone so you won't find too many connections on them.

DL is doing exactly what it needs to succeed. The fact that they keep adding flights to JFK obviously says they see positive things that you don't.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13174
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
DL is doing exactly what it needs to succeed. The fact that they keep adding flights to JFK obviously says they see positive things that you don't.

DL's plan is basically to copy what CO does, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
doug_or
Posts: 3118
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting TokyoNarita (Reply 42):
my little Dash couldn't take my international bags out of PWM

I won't stop you from bad mouthing Mesa, but don't you worry your pretty littel head about the bags... the Dash can carry 'em, I mean its not like we're talking about a SAAB here  Smile
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
cs03
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:56 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 11:03 am

On the ALB/JFK run, I am glad to have ANY type of aircraft, since we have had zero service since AE quit the route! Prior to that we had Saabs,DH-7s, and SD330/360s. Eastern ran a 722 JFK/ALB/JFK in 1983, but I recall that was in "competition" with BN earlier starting LGA/ALB service, also with a 727!
 
congaboy
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:48 am

RE: DL Adds 25 More Flights At JFK

Fri May 12, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 28):
Do you honestly think British Airways and Lufthansa totally rely on local traffic or AirTran to support their flights in ATL?

I admire your optimism for DL, WT, but I think STAR Alliance and oneworld might have a thing or two to do with connections to LH/BA before they consider publishing a connection with DL. And if you make that arguement for a DL to LH connection, why would I fly DL from PWM to JFK when I can take B6? I would....I hate turboprops. BTW, isnt CO a Skyteam member, and dont they have a massive hub at EWR? They probably fly to PWM...

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
No, people prefer getting from Point A to Point B in a convenient schedule and as expeditiously as possible. With the exception of a.net nerds, no one really cares whether its a Dash 8 or RJ. Otherwise, Skywest, Gulfstream, ASA, American Eagle, Great Lakes, Horizon, and many other airlines that operate turboprops in some fashion would be in quite a pickle. Period.

Mainly true, Otto, but people (like me) will opt for the big jet if given any kind of choice.

Quoting TokyoNarita (Reply 42):
Also, I wouldn't want to end up in a turboprop and get tossed around at 16000ft in the Northeast after 10-12 hours of international flying OR enjoy the pleasure of wearing the same underwear for 5 days in 115F Bombay heat because my little Dash couldn't take my international bags out of PWM...I may want to stick with EWR on this one. Just my opinion.

....and mine too...I can relate. And here's another point...DL is not the only carrier to fly to Europe, so dont make assumptions that if I fly out of NYC, I have to take DL internationally. I think BA/LH/KL/SK/AZ/LX/AI/VS....etc may have some interest for your business as well.

I respect DL for trying to stimulate revenue in lucrative markets, so good luck on this expansion.
"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"