ANNOYEDFA
Topic Author
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 4:38 am

THIS FROM THE WRONGFULLY TERMINATED DL F/A'S SITE! NOTICE THE WORD OTHERS! SEEMS JETBLUE HAS A NACK FOR FIRING THEIR NON-UNION F/A'S WHEN THEY DON'T GET WHAT THEY WANT!

Remember that JetBlue flight attendant, whose story I posted here a while back?? Well, she left a comment today.? Apparently the FAA is investigating the incident. Here's her comment:

UPDATE:::

I wanted to let you all know....An investigator from the FAA called me to make a sworn, tape recorded statement today. He is investigating JetBlue regarding this issue, and others. I guess where there is smoke, there's fire.

Go ON, Girl!? Stand up for your rights!
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
ANNOYEDFA
Topic Author
Posts: 441
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 4:44 am

For the full story:

Hi All. ?I get a lot of emails from wrongfully terminated flight attendants, but this one stood out to me. ?It is just WRONG! ?So I helped her write the following press release, which I considered titling "Safety is Not JetBlue's Number One Concern" (but that would have sounded rather biased *smirk*)...


JetBlue Flight Attendant Fired For Fatigue

Long Beach, CA, March 23--JetBlue flight attendant Carolyn Livingston was fired last week after being bullied into working a flight that put her over the FAA maximum flight attendant duty period. The company accused her of sleeping on the job. ?She maintains that she was not, although she said she had tried to get herself and her crew released from the flight due to fatigue.

On February 17, Livingston, 35, was lead flight attendant of a four-member cabin crew that was to work a red-eye flight from Long Beach, CA, to Fort Lauderdale, FL, and back the next morning without a break. ?They were scheduled to report to the airport at 8:20pm and take off at 9:20pm. ?The flight was delayed two and a half hours, and didn't leave until 11:30pm.

During the flight, Livingston told the pilots to call the cabin crew in fatigued, as they were too tired to work the return flight back to Long Beach Airport, which would now put them over the FAA maximum 14-hour duty day. ?

When they landed in Fort Lauderdale, an In-flight supervisor met the plane and informed Livingston and her crew that there were no hotel rooms available in Fort Lauderdale, and that they would have to fly them all the way to New York?s JFK airport to get a hotel room if they refused to continue the trip. ?The supervisor also told Livingston that the return flight to Long Beach would have to cancel unless she and her crew agreed to work it.

Livingston?s crewmembers then decided to change their minds and work the return flight back to Long Beach. ?

?At this point I felt pressured to work the flight back, too,? Livingston said. ?The supervisor intimidated me by telling me that they would have to cancel the flight if we didn?t work it. ?Plus, she didn?t seem to want to accept no for an answer. ?She informed us that they wouldn?t be able to get us a hotel room in Fort Lauderdale if we decided to stay.?

Livingston said she finally decided to go ahead and work the flight home, as it seemed to be the easiest solution for everyone involved. ?

Three weeks later, Livingston?s supervisor notified her of a report from a fellow crewmember that stated Livingston had been sleeping on one of the jumpseats in the back galley during the flight back to Long Beach on February 18. ?Sleeping on the jumpseat is a fireable offense at JetBlue. ?Subsequently, Livingston was placed on suspension pending an investigation. ?

On March 16, Livingston was terminated from JetBlue. ?The reason given: sleeping on the jumpseat. ? ?

?I was shocked. ?I absolutely was NOT sleeping on the jumpseat,? Livingston said. ?Management concocted that as an excuse to fire me for attempting to call in fatigued for the flight.?

Fatigue is not a new issue for the airline crews. ?Indeed, it has been a major concern since the dawn of aviation. It is especially important since it impacts airline safety. ?Pilot fatigue has been blamed for many crashes through the years. ?

?Apparently safety is not JetBlue?s number one concern,? Livingston said. ?Otherwise they would have allowed us to call in fatigued and relieved us from the flight. ?I told the oncoming pilots that we had called in fatigued, and they were shocked that In-flight didn't release us. In their opinion that was a complete no-no.?

Not only does crew fatigue impact airline safety, but also crewmembers? health. ?In recent years flight attendant and pilot unions have been trying to push for stricter federal regulations regarding required crew rest and maximum duty days. ?Many airlines like JetBlue, however, find ways to intimidate their employees into flying past the federally mandated daily limits.

Livingston, a single mother, stated she felt she had no chance of appealing to get her job back.

JetBlue spokeswoman Jenny Dervin said the company does not comment on crewmembers to the public.

JetBlue flight attendants are not unionized.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
timboflier215
Posts: 804
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 5:06 am

Can I ask, not to detract from the story, which if true is horrible, but why are you a pissed-off F/A??
 
SA7700
Posts: 2940
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
During the flight, Livingston told the pilots to call the cabin crew in fatigued, as they were too tired to work the return flight back to Long Beach Airport, which would now put them over the FAA maximum 14-hour duty day.



Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
JetBlue spokeswoman Jenny Dervin said the company does not comment on crewmembers to the public

How convenient for B6.... From the press release by Carolyn Livingston, it seems as if B6 is in breach of FAA regulations. B6 however, choose not to come clean to paying passengers. If B6 breached FAA regulations, I would like to know about it - they are gambling with peoples life’s.

Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
HS748
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 5:09 am

And why are there so many question marks?
 
SA7700
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 2):
but why are you a pissed-off F/A??

Forgive my ignorance, but I can't seem to find the phrase where the thread starter stated that he was a pissed-off F/A. I can see Annoyed F/A from the thread starter's name, but fail to see the PO comment.


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
gr8slvrflt
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 5:23 am

There is no FAA 14-hour maximum duty limit for flight attendants. Also, calling "fatigue" after less than 8-hours on duty probably won't get you very far.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
timboflier215
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 5):
but fail to see the PO comment.

On his user profile, under "Other info" it says "One pissed FA". I am simply wondering why? I guess I should have made clear where I got it from - I was not putting words into his mouth - I wouldn't dream of it! Hehe.
 
gritzngravee
Posts: 120
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting HS748 (Reply 4):
And why are there so many question marks?

Looks like they kept the editing charaters on. Very wierd I must admit also!!!!

Why are people shocked? It is the capitalistic way, profits over people!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!! If you don't like it move to another country!!!!!!!!

And let's assume your a F/A you go to the airport to report for your flight an hour before departure at 9AM flight leaves at 10AM. An unforseen event occurs that causes the airport to close until 4PM, that's 6 hours gone. Your flight is from JFK to LGB another 6 -7 hours so let's say you've worked a total of 13 hours. Then your next flight is to get repositioned in OAK so you are not working that flight. Then the final flight of the day is OAK to LGA that's 6 hours to 6.5 hours so you have almost worked 20.5 hours in a day. What do you think your supervisor is going to tell you? You got 6 hours of rest during the delay even though you were on the clock. She isn't the first and she won't be the last. My neighbor was an F/A for TWA on all of the JFK Int'l flights and some of the stories she told me were 1,000 times worst than what this lady went through. I'm not saying it is right but how many times do you see one flight attendant successfully challenge an airline and win?!!
 
stealthpilot
Posts: 502
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 6):
There is no FAA 14-hour maximum duty limit for flight attendants. Also, calling "fatigue" after less than 8-hours on duty probably won't get you very far.

I don’t think she complained of fatigue in reference to the first flight to FLL, I believe the F/A was concerned (probably rightfully so) that the crew would be too tired on the unscheduled return flight.

As SA7700 said, If the airline breached any FAA regulations then I would like to know about it. However, as factual as the F/A’s statement may seem, without hearing the other side I will keep my opinions to myself.
eP007
eP007
 
JBLUA320
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 6:10 am

Something doesn't add up here... I can't really put my finger on what it is, but it just doesn't make sense. First of all, if what Gr8 says is true, about there being no 14 hour limit, then the flight attendant really has no grounds to stand on. Beyond that, though, how could management just concoct a story about her sleeping on the jumpseat?

Now, I don't know the supervisor that apparently pressured the crew, but if you think you are putting people's lives in jeopardy, then saying "the supervisor didnt seem to want to take no for an answer" makes it sound like the FA didn't argue her case too much (and understandably, if she was respecting authority).

I'm not defending management, nor the flight attendant. Something just doesn't seem to add up about this...

JBLU
 
socalatc
Posts: 416
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 6:29 am

I dont understand how you can get to tired serving drinks for a couple hours. Also, why so many damn question marks???????????
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1940
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 6:30 am

Why did one of her FA colleagues report her for sleeping on the return flight she was trying to get them released from?

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
Three weeks later, Livingston?s supervisor notified her of a report from a fellow crewmember that stated Livingston had been sleeping on one of the jumpseats in the back galley during the flight back to Long Beach on February 18.

Didn't they feel tired after the first flight? Was there animosity between her and this other FA? Didn't she have support from the rest of the crew?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
bond007
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
The supervisor intimidated me by telling me that they would have to cancel the flight if we didn?t work it.

Well, they would.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
Otherwise they would have allowed us to call in fatigued and relieved us from the flight.

I don't see anything that implies she was 'forced' to fly. She could have refused and didn't.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
Livingston said she finally decided to go ahead and work the flight home, as it seemed to be the easiest solution for everyone involved. ?

hmmm...I wouldn't be putting that in a press release. So, she just took the 'easiest solution' instead of the right one.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 1):
FAA maximum 14-hour duty day.

Again, if you're going to put this in a press release, you simple must explain what is meant by a 'maximum 14-hour duty day'. There are FAA regs for F/A duty time (FAR 121.467), but you can work 20 hours as long as you have the required 'rest period' before the next duty time. Also, the 2-hour delay probably doesn't count as part of the 'duty day'...so be careful.

All that happens with articles like this is that people like me pick holes in the content....whether it is indeed really correct or not.

Jimbo

[Edited 2006-05-11 23:42:01]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
StuckInCA
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 6:42 am

Sure seems to me that we're only hearing a small part of one side of a story. And we're not hearing it very clearly anyway. If this really played out the way it did, why would anyone want to work for B6 anyway? Go work elsewhere and stop being so angry.
 
luv2fly
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 14):
Sure seems to me that we're only hearing a small part of one side of a story. And we're not hearing it very clearly anyway. If this really played out the way it did, why would anyone want to work for B6 anyway? Go work elsewhere and stop being so angry.

I agree we are hearing the part that best supports there side of the story.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Bobster2
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 7:04 am

I've been on two jetBlue redeyes, and the flight attendants had very little work to do. The cabin lights were off. Passengers slept. Very few people even got up to go to the bathroom. Looks to me like the ideal assignment for a flight attendant.

On the second redeye, we had a diversion that delayed us over 5 hours, instead of arriving at JFK at 6 am, we got there after 11 am. The flight attendants did have to work extremely hard during the diversion. After the easy redeye part of the trip, they really earned their pay during the last 5 hours of a flight that ended up taking over 10 hours. The flight attendants were wonderful. They never complained or even looked the tiniest bit tired. The diversion was hard work, because everybody was awake, going to the bathroom, asking for food and water, asking questions about the diversion, the kids woke up and were running up and down the aisle, jumping on seats, but the flight attendants were perfect professionals the whole time.

So I have little sympathy for the complaining F/A. If you can't handle a redeye followed by another flight, find another job.

[Edited 2006-05-12 00:07:27]
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
airbazar
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 7:15 am

This all just smells like union propaganda against a non-union Airline.
 
fly2yyz
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 7:19 am

So I presume then this was basically the only pairing that the crew had was LGB-FLL-LGB, is this right? And they did not have a previous short pairing to do? I am surprised that the FA doesnt have a max duty period.
 
luv2fly
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
This all just smells like union propaganda against a non-union Airline.

Hit the nail on the head!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
PlanesNTrains
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 8):
Why are people shocked? It is the capitalistic way, profits over people!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!! If you don't like it move to another country!!!!!!!!

You know, after working with countless deadbeats over the years, all who got the same wages, benefits, and protections as their more capable and hardworking counterparts, I have grown tired of statements like yours.

I'm sure there are many cases of abuse, but after 20+ years of working in food and transportation fields (two rather demanding, irregular schedule-type environments), I've seen that most of the time it is the other way around. "They owe me." "They can't fire me." "I'm tired." etc. etc. etc.

It's one of the reasons that my wife and I have so far not opened our own business - employees nowadays, particularly in the service industry, are often worthless, and if you look at them cross-eyed you get sued.

It's not the country that's the problem - it's the culture.

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 10):
Something just doesn't seem to add up about this...

It NEVER adds up in these things. Look at the name of the threadposter. Agenda?

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 16):
I've been on two jetBlue redeyes, and the flight attendants had very little work to do. The cabin lights were off. Passengers slept. Very few people even got up to go to the bathroom. Looks to me like the ideal assignment for a flight attendant.

I will say this - whether you are working your a$$ off, or just sitting on it, if you are "at work" then it counts. I can think of a million things I'd rather be doing than sitting in a crew lounge or a jumpseat waiting for a delayed flight finally get cleared to depart.

It's called "a job" and it's what you get paid for. If it's easy or hard doesn't matter.

-Dave
-Dave
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 3):
If B6 breached FAA regulations, I would like to know about it - they are gambling with peoples life’s.

Oh, please...a sleepy FA or two is not going to make the plane crash.

Seriously, if a FAA regulation has been violated, an investigation is necessary. But let's keep a sense or proportion here, and keep in mind we're only hearing one side of the story in this thread.
 
airlinelover
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 6):
There is no FAA 14-hour maximum duty limit for flight attendants.

Actually, there is a maximum-hour limit imposed by the FAA, I thought it was 16 or 18 hrs tho..

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5159
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 7:39 am

Isn't there a union that's trying to organize JetBlue?
 
ANNOYEDFA
Topic Author
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 7:56 am

Ok before I finish reading all the posts to this I will stop and address GR8SLVFLT. You sir are 100% incorrect. I am a Flight Attendant for over 4 years and it is infact regualted by the FAA how many hours we can fly in a single day. You have 0 idea of how our trips are built and worked and all too often airlines with NO UNIONS get away with things like this. Where as at a union airline such as my own they DON'T. At TWA they had guild lines, crew rest for NTA FLTS, and a contract for a union to make sure was upheld. If the FA didn't take action with the union that FA is just plain dumb. I have on MANY occasions been drafted to work beyond my duty limitations and a simple call to crew scheduling cleared it up EVER single time. I have had flights return to gates and the flight been canceled BECAUSE I WOULD OF GONE BEYOND MY DUTY LIMITATIONS and not one single time was the crew questioned. As for your description of a trip. One like that is totally illegal by way of crew rest, and FAA limitations. A crew can infact do a transcon turn but considering round trip flight time is blocked at or over 12 hours if there is any delay such as in this B6 instance the return flight should have been prepared to be recrewed or canceled.

socalatc: A reponce to you! How can we get so tired serving drinks? Our day entails alot more then that sir and people who think like you I have no time, energy or, patience for your sheer ignorance. Grow up and educate yourself about our career if you choose to try and bash it. Oh and how is it you get so tired sitting staring at a computer screen all day doing nothing but trying to make planes not crash into each other? See how stupid that sounds?

Bond007: If she wasen't forced to fly the trip why wasen't a crew waiting AND hotels set up for the entire crew? They told them if they didn't work the flight it would be canceled and they would have to deadhead to NY FOR A HOTEL. When your tired do you want to take a 2:30 minute flight plus a 45 minute bus ride to check into a hotel? Yes the 2 hour delay is factored into you duty day. Your duty day is from CHECK-IN to CHECK-OUT. If you are delayed 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, or 10 hours that is included IN YOUR DUTY DAY! Do you like sitting in a airport for all those hours to have to then go to work and told YOU ARE NOT TIRED OR YOU CAN'T BE TIRED?

Bobster: Your lucky they were probably a overnighting crew our the flight would of been canceled had it been a transcon turn. Just because the one flight you were on out of the thousands I and other flight attendants have worked was easy going doesn't mean they all are. Transcon turns should be prohibited by federal law much like cell phone use on a jet is. They are tiring and most of the time the flight attendants stand around trying to keep each other awake because we are suppose to be ASLEEP!

Airbazar: Smell all you want this is my friends former co-worker. He has spoken to her and the remander of the crew has been intouch with this wrongfully terminated F/A to which not one reported her for sleeping on the J/S. She infact was never asleep. If B6 doesn't like you, your OUT!

I posted this for people to be aware of what really goes behind the scenes. After decades of work we still can't get the simpliest things humanly needed to work...... PROPER REST. We should be like everyone else who has to work a 8-12 hours day.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
JBLUA320
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:04 am

I'm sorry Annoyedfa, but I don't see anything in the article that implies the crew didn't have enough rest beforehand for them to be allowed to work a 20 hour turn.

JBLU
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:07 am

Ah, AnnoyedFA. I wondered where you had gone  Smile

I personally am guessing there's a whole lot more to this story than we know. Even if JetBlue is an evil devil worshipping non-union airline, I hardly would think that their HR department is staffed by a bunch of imbiciles, stupid enough to fire someone for something that they could get in so much trouble over. Of course JetBlue won't go public with their side because of liability issues but I'll bet a million to one that we're not getting the full story of this FA's career.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 24):
Yes the 2 hour delay is factored into you duty day. Your duty day is from CHECK-IN to CHECK-OUT. If you are delayed 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, or 10 hours that is included IN YOUR DUTY DAY! Do you like sitting in a airport for all those hours to have to then go to work and told YOU ARE NOT TIRED OR YOU AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN'T BE TIRED?

If you are going to be annoyed and write press releases, like I said, make sure you're right, and if you are, explain why. Duty time for F/A's is SCHEDULED time...I'm sure you know that...not actual in all cases.

From FAR Part 121.467:
"(14) A flight attendant is not considered to be scheduled for duty
in excess of duty period limitations if the flights to which the flight
attendant is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the
limitations but due to circumstances beyond the control of the
certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or supplemental operations
(such as adverse weather conditions) are not at the time of departure
expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time."

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 24):
Bond007: If she wasen't forced to fly the trip why wasen't a crew waiting AND hotels set up for the entire crew?

She wasn't forced to do anything. You told the press she did the 'easiest solution'.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
gr8slvrflt
Posts: 1449
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:15 am

I repeat, there is no FAA 14-hour duty limit for flight attendants. Many airlines have their limits but there is not one imposed by the FAA. At my airline, we cannot be scheduled over 14 hours and can walk at 16 hours but these are contractual limits. Our previous contract had a "legal to start, legal to finish" rule where delays could keep us on duty indefinitely.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
ANNOYEDFA
Topic Author
Posts: 441
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:15 am

JBLUEA320: Ok how about this.... YOU CAN'T WORK A 20 HOUR TURN!!!! It's against FAA regualtions.  Smile

Kabair: That is the story! It is what it is! The women was a FA for not even a year before being wrongfully terminated. Before that she worked with the gov't. That should speed things along for her.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 am

B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:18 am

AnnoyedFA,

You're likely right that her previous gov't position will speed things along for her.

I still don't buy that it's the whole story. There's no way. I'd wager she screwed up and doesn't want to admit that little part of the story. Besides, they wouldn't fire her without some sort of documentation. I can hear that Phil Collins song "we always need to hear both sides of the story..." (I hate that song).
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:24 am

Actually if only you'd all read the regulations.

YES, there ARE FAA limits.

If I read it correctly 20hrs is only if one stop is outside contig 48 states.
Else it's 14-18 hrs but with required rest and extra F/A's if over 14 hrs.

...but as I mentioned earlier...they cannot be SCHEDULED for more than those limits. If they happen to be delayed and 13hrs scheduled suddenly becomes 16hrs actual....it's OK.


Jimbo

[Edited 2006-05-12 01:26:50]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
ANNOYEDFA
Topic Author
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:25 am

It's the whole story....... I'd like to see her eventually be able to sue them for wrongful termination.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 am

B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 32):
It's the whole story

So you know this for sure? Are you psychic then? Or do you assume that just because someone you know tells you something, that means it's absolutely true? That's a dangerous way to live....
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:31 am

I believe the whole premise of this post is wrong.

Who says its wrongfull termination?

Its simply alleged!

Let the FA do what she wished to fight it, however I am sure the company has reasons for the actions they took. Has body considered that maybe this FA has had previous performance or disciplinary issues.

As always there are two sides to a story
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PlanesNTrains
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 24):
I have had flights return to gates and the flight been canceled BECAUSE I WOULD OF GONE BEYOND MY DUTY LIMITATIONS and not one single time was the crew questioned.

When dealing with a union, how exactly are they even ALLOWED to question you? For better or worse, union representation takes away most flexibility in work rule situations. If an airline crosses that line, there will be hell to pay.

I think that is where SOME F/A's get an attitude from. When you feel like nothing can happen to you, you'll cancel a flight even though realistically it could have flown. Again, I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just the way it is. It makes your comparison one of apples and oranges I'd say.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 24):
He has spoken to her and the remander of the crew has been intouch with this wrongfully terminated F/A to which not one reported her for sleeping on the J/S. She infact was never asleep.

Do you really think:

1. The employee would admit it?

2. The Airline doesn't have documentation to back it up?

3. She wouldn't have recourse if the airline lied?

In other words, whoever is telling the truth is covered IMHO.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 24):
If B6 doesn't like you, your OUT!

Heaven forbid. How un-American.

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 29):
The women was a FA for not even a year before being wrongfully terminated. Before that she worked with the gov't.

Why do I find this statement so ironic?  Smile

-Dave

(sorry for the bad attitude today)
-Dave
 
Bobster2
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:36 am

The problem seems pretty clear to me. The FA did not call in fatigued before the flight. At that point she presumably could have been accommodated, same as sick leave. But she got on the flight and then tried to call in fatigued just a couple hours later when there were no longer any good backup options available.

By not giving warning as soon as possible, she put the airline in a bad position. Her behavior indicates a bad attitude more than fatigue.

Even the one-sided press release does not make the FA look good. I can't imagine the full truth will make her case any stronger.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
CO767FA
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:46 am

AnnoyedFA: Those who are in the same career understand your point; but the majority who post here are "enthusiasts". Take their opinions with a very small grain of salt.
 
Bobster2
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 37):
majority who post here are "enthusiasts".

Hey, I watched every episode of "Flight Attendant School".  Smile
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
KabAir
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 37):
AnnoyedFA: Those who are in the same career understand your point; but the majority who post here are "enthusiasts". Take their opinions with a very small grain of salt.

CO767FA, I don't think you (or AnnoyedFA) gets it. Trust me, we "understand" the point. But we also understand that this FA may be full of bull crap to put it bluntly. We non FA folks don't have to work in your industry to understand that people in all walks of life lie, and people in every vocation don't always tell the whole story. What myself and others are contridicting is not the fact that there are FAA regs, but instead are questioning whether or not this FA can be believed as to the true reasons for her termination. JetBlue has a side to this story too I'm sure.

Put it this way, I remember working with people through my undergrad school career who always griped about how certain professors were out to get them and gave them bad grades for no reason. Of course, once I got to know some of these people, truth usually was that they put a whopping 1 hour a week into studying and 60 hours a week into drinking. You get the idea.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
bond007
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 37):
Those who are in the same career understand your point;

We're going by what was reported, nothing else, the same as you.

Unless you enlighten us on regulations...I may well have interpreted them incorrectly.

In fact I'm making no opinion on who was right or wrong, just what the regs say and what the 'press release' said.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
PlanesNTrains
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 36):
By not giving warning as soon as possible, she put the airline in a bad position. Her behavior indicates a bad attitude more than fatigue.

It may. It might also be, though, that she simply is not cut out for the job, doesn't really have an angry disposition, but is used to people being accommodated for such things. It doesn't make her bad necessarily, but it also doesn't make her right. (Or wrong).

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 37):
AnnoyedFA: Those who are in the same career understand your point; but the majority who post here are "enthusiasts". Take their opinions with a very small grain of salt.

Fine. And anytime you offer ANY non-F/A point-of-view, we'll do the same.

Maybe people in this thread are wrong. Maybe they're not. But I think most of us are at least considering that a one-sided post by an "Annoyed FA" MAY NOT BE THE 100% WHOLE STORY.

Is that cool?

-Dave
-Dave
 
ANNOYEDFA
Topic Author
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 8:58 am

CO767FA: I think I am because the posts I am reading seem that they didn't even read the full contents of the letter. It's quite annoying...

PlanesNtrains: That's my exact point. The rules are enforced! No questioning, if ands or buts! Where as with a non-union airline you only have you to back yourself up. Flight attendants can't just cancel a flight but when your duty limitations expire you are obligated to do what is right and have the flight returned to the gate for a cancelation. If not I can get in trouble by the FAA if they find out. I guess your gripe is about the working people in general so I won't bother to go on.

Bobster2: Re-read the airticle maybe the second time it will sink it. She got to the airport the flight was delayed. If she was doing a turn worth 12 hours and the flight was delayed 2 hours she would be at 14 hours which again is ILLEGAL to go over unless you are already in the air and have crew rest. She also did call while inrange that they would be calling in fatigue. FLL is a B6 FA base. They should of had a crew ready to go. Therefore it is the airlines fault for not preparing.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
KabAir
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 9:09 am

Okay, I may have to call some shannanigans here...

Just looked at JetBlue's website. LGB-FLL is blocked at 4:55 and return at 5:15. So that's a total of 10 hours 10 minutes round trip flight time. Okay, now add in reporting an hour early, that's 11 hours 10 minutes. Okay, now add in 2 hr. 10 min. delay (supposed to leave 9:20, actually left at 11:30), now we're at 13 hours 20 minutes. Now assume a 35-40 minute turn time between flights. Okay, so we're still just barely at 14 hours. So are we perhaps seeing something wrong with this picture already? Even with the 2:10 delay I'm just barely getting up to 14 hours, maybe. So that could begin shedding some light on why she was expected to work the return flight. I'm not so sure she was going to go over the 14 hours even with the delay....

Am I missing something here??
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
PlanesNTrains
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 42):
I guess your gripe is about the working people in general so I won't bother to go on.

Well, since most American's are "working people" I would say I wasn't griping about working people. My response was directed at gritzngravee's commentary on business in America, though it may or may not apply to you or your friend. I don't know you, so can't comment.

If you like, though, let me know what I said that you disagree with and I'll clarify my position. That's not a challenge, btw, but rather an admission that I'm being a little grumpy today ... no, that's a lie. It's a challenge.

-Dave
-Dave
 
Bobster2
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting KabAir (Reply 43):
Just looked at JetBlue's website. LGB-FLL is blocked at 4:55 and return at 5:15.

You'd have to look the schedule for February 18 to be sure that it hasn't changed since then.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 9:34 am

Again, my flights with B6 have exposed me to very enthusiastic high morale F/A's. So I doubt this is common.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 13):
Again, if you're going to put this in a press release, you simple must explain what is meant by a 'maximum 14-hour duty day'. There are FAA regs for F/A duty time (FAR 121.467), but you can work 20 hours as long as you have the required 'rest period' before the next duty time. Also, the 2-hour delay probably doesn't count as part of the 'duty day'...so be careful.

Thank you for the good information and follow on posts.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
This all just smells like union propaganda against a non-union Airline.

 checkmark  A DL union web site would be the last place I'd look for B6 information. Don't get me wrong, if B6 did wrong, I want their wrist smacked. But there are much better modern ways to ensure proper employee treatment than a union. As I've noted before, I belive matrix management is the way to go. It costs far less to impliment and results in a much happier workforce.

Man... imagine the gripping that will go on once the real estate market cools...  Wink

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
PlanesNTrains
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 46):
I've noted before, I belive matrix management is the way to go. It costs far less to impliment and results in a much happier workforce.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that, as I've not heard of it before.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 46):
Man... imagine the gripping that will go on once the real estate market cools...

It's gonna be painful, that's for sure. And everyone will feel it. Everyone.

-Dave
-Dave
 
MidnightMike
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 42):
Bobster2: Re-read the airticle maybe the second time it will sink it. She got to the airport the flight was delayed. If she was doing a turn worth 12 hours and the flight was delayed 2 hours she would be at 14 hours which again is ILLEGAL to go over unless you are already in the air and have crew rest. She also did call while inrange that they would be calling in fatigue. FLL is a B6 FA base. They should of had a crew ready to go. Therefore it is the airlines fault for not preparing.

AnnoyFA

Couple of things here, the Flight Attendant flew the crew, which by the way, she was legal for, legal to start, legal to finish......

If she was not legal for the flight, & she flew the trip anyway, that places her in the wrong as well......
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ANNOYEDFA
Topic Author
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B6 F/A Wrongfully Terminated Gets FAA Involved!

Fri May 12, 2006 11:18 am

Either way she was F A T I G U E D! The instance that it is mentioned you should be removed from the trip. No if, and, or but. As a crew scheduler you should know that. If you are tired and put in the enviroment we work in there is a possibility a mishap can happen. However I find this NOT to be the case in this instance. Also at my airline we are really not to leave the ground if we know we won't land within the maximum duty period and I am pretty sure that is FAA regualted. Along with contractual.

If infact she flew the trip knowing she was over her duty limtations then yes she was wrong BUT the Supervisor told her and the rest of the crew they had to deadhead to NY for a hotel "Because there was none in FLL". So either way they would of been kept on duty to deadhead and yes deadheading is considered to be working crew even though they said they were fatigued. So either way it's a win win for her. I hope she comes out on top and we start to see more strict limitations on the hours we work and are not paid for in one single day.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."