Joost
Topic Author
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 6:51 am

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ally+low'+Air+France+airport.html

Irish budget carrier Ryanair has lodged a complaint with the European Commission (EC), protesting against the level of domestic airport and landing fees paid by Air France.

(...)

Ryanair claims that Air France has, over the �past number of years�, received approximately �1 billion ($1.3 billion) in �illegal state aid� as domestic passenger and landing charges are �often up to 50% lower� than on international European routes.

(...)

O�Leary also complained about the public service obligation route system in France, which he believes is �misused widely� to benefit Air France, blocking competition on some international routes.


Interesting that they are complaining. Wonder what will happen. However, some questions raised to me.

First, they talk about PSO's blocking competition on international routes. But can't PSO's only be issued for domestic flights (ie. corsica-mainland Franc)?

The other question about the 50% lower price for domestic flights.

1. Why is this?
2. Is 50% discount so special? Although not often listed, I found for example for Kaunas (Lithuania) also that there is a 50% difference ( http://www.kaunasair.lt/index.php?lang=2&m=3&p=370 ) and I recall having read it before.
 
YULMRS
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:10 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 8:28 am

Landing fees paid by Af ... Is this a joke ?

Well, i think O'Leary has a very short term memory, a kind of ability to forget thing when he wants ... FR had a double daily flight from London (from STN, but i may be wrong) to Strasbourg which was suspended when the chamber of commerce of Strasbourg suspended it's subsidy ...

Quoting Joost (Thread starter):
First, they talk about PSO's blocking competition on international routes. But can't PSO's only be issued for domestic flights (ie. corsica-mainland Franc)?

We know that EZY had to cancel the launch of an ORY-AJA service because of the PSO, but i don't see any example of an international service cancelled or suspended.
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Joost (Thread starter):
Interesting that they are complaining

I can understand clearly why FR is complaining. AF is quite happy to pay subsidised domestic airport and landing fees, but when they learn someone else might also be benefiting from similar subsidies, they are the first to kick up a fuss. Typical hypocrites.

And the public service obligation route system? It is simply a disguise for Air France to be protected by the French Government, just like a mother hen protects her chicks. The French (and Italians) are happy to accept rules set by the EEC as long as they do not apply on their home ground.

Are the French so worried that an Irish airline, creating a small base in their country with a handful of aircraft and a few employees, is so efficient that they pose a very serious threat to the state carrier?
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
AlanUK
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:56 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 1):
Well, i think O'Leary has a very short term memory, a kind of ability to forget thing when he wants ... FR had a double daily flight from London (from STN, but i may be wrong) to Strasbourg which was suspended when the chamber of commerce of Strasbourg suspended it's subsidy ...

And the reason the Alsace region stopped the subsidies? Because Air France took legal action against the Chamber of Commerce of Strasbourg for giving it out in the first place! Which is of course the right thing for Air France to have done. Why should an airline receive money from the taxpayers to fly places?

It has happened before and probably still happens right now. The Alsace region wanted to boost tourism and commerce to the area, and saw in Ryanair the perfect opportunity for growth. But following the legal battle, Ryanair was made to pay all the aid back and pull out of SXB altogether.

This latest legal affair from Ryanair against AF-KLM is a "pay-back" time revenge call from the Irish no-frills airline.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4763533.stm

Alan.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 6:07 pm

Rubbish,
Just some more free advertising for MOL. You would have thought the media would have caught on by now.

As AF has pointed out the prices for domestic and international flights are different - but they are the same for all carriers. FR's domestic flights pay the same as AF's domestic flights.

It's been suggested that this is a pre-emptive strike - because FR has negotiated 'special' arrangements at MRS that are not available to Air France (and other airlines), and they want to distract the regulators from this. However I haven't seen any evidence to support this suggestion.

By EC rules all PSOs must be put out for tender and are not simply awarded to the national carrier. In Italy, for example, a number of the PSO routes are operated by IG. The results of the tender are also published in the Official Journal of the EC and this includes the agreement between the national authority and the airline. Nothing under the table. I suspect that the reason why LCCs have not been interested in PSOs is because of the obligations of providing a year-round minimum level of service. Their business model doesn't support this.

Not knowing the route dynamics of any of the PSO routes it is difficult to know if the islanders (or whatever) are better off with higher prices, but with guaranteed levels of service - or with lower prices with no guarantee that there will be any service from one scheduling period to the next.
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 6:09 pm

It's really laughable. The company which comes to an airport only if it receives local subsidies (like in Strasbourg) is now complaining about "low landing fees".


???????????????????????
 
olympicbis
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:32 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 8:17 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 2):
Typical hypocrites

O' Leary is the biggest hypocrit around, since he had his junk airline subsidized by the Wallonia federal governement in Belgium to operate from Charleroi ( sorry Brussels South... ) The European Commission ruled that he had to pay this aid / subsidy back. What a miserable crook...
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 2):
And the public service obligation route system? It is simply a disguise for Air France to be protected by the French Government, just like a mother hen protects her chicks. The French (and Italians) are happy to accept rules set by the EEC as long as they do not apply on their home ground.

I am sorry but it reveals you really don't know how it works!!
ANother in reply 4 explains already the system and I just want to add these routes are often a disaster to operate.

Moreover, as far as France is concerned the PSO routes to the French West Indies and French Guyana are NOT generating loads of cash!
if that was the case AF would not introduce a 3-4-3 eco configured 777 on these destinations!!!

Quoting BCAL (Reply 2):
Are the French so worried that an Irish airline, creating a small base in their country with a handful of aircraft and a few employees, is so efficient that they pose a very serious threat to the state carrier?

No, we are afraid that by creating predecents and shutting our mouths when we don't like stuff, the air service is degenerating to horrid ryanairesque levels
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 8:41 pm

Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 6):
What a miserable crook...

So you believe that by negotiating a business deal with Charleroi Airport's managers, who wanted FR to use their under utilised airport and bring in thousands of passengers who might then spend money in the area or at the airport, and then sticking to his part of the bargain, MOL is a crook? What is his offence? It was Charleroi Airport's managers who the EEC ruled had acted improperly by offering the subsidies that apparently were not theirs to offer. Of course, there is nothing wrong with the Italians, Greeks etc subsidising their own airlines.

Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 6):
junk airline

Well I hardly think that it can be a "junk" airline if an average of 77,000 passengers use it every day, and the airline is highly profitable. True they offer no frills, and perhaps could improve their customer relations, but they have enabled me and many others who normally VFR once or twice a year, to now VFR far more frequently. Last time I VFRd the fare on FR was €35 inclusive of taxes. Legacy carriers used to charge a minimum of €500, and insisted that I had to stay a Saturday night otherwise the fare doubled.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 8:52 pm

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 7):
shutting our mouths when we don't like stuff

Are you saying that all French people do not want to be able to fly cheaply and prefer to pay twice for their air fares - first through the fare paid to the airline (i.e. Air France) and then by subsidies (that their Government gives AF from the revenue raised from tax the French pay)? Strange people the French, but then I am a Rostbif!

[Edited 2006-05-12 13:56:58]
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 8:52 pm

For everyone who is interested in the topic please read "case Charleroi". In this case, the European Commission clearly described what subsidies and "incentive programs by the airports" are allowed and which are not.

I can only support Ryanair in this case. Air France last week was complaining against Basel/Mulhouse airport and its tariff system- and got backed by the French judges. This in a complete contradiction to the guidelines that exist since "case Charleroi". The decision of the French court is a complete fuss since it is against European law.

It is about time that there is more competition in France. Gladly, with easyJet and Ryanair, there are now two strong airlines who do not accept Air France's monopoly and the discrimination it sees from French government, judges and other governmental organisations such as the slot coordination.

Regards,
RJ100 (who flies Air France in a week lol  )

[Edited 2006-05-12 13:53:07]
none
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 9):
subsidies (that their Government gives AF from the revenue raised from tax the French pay)

I'm not in the business, but what are these subsidies ??
I doubt it would be allowed by the European comission. Have you anything to prove what you say ?
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French

Fri May 12, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 10):
other governmental organisations such as the slot coordination.

Sorry but COHOR is not run by the French Government. It is independant of the French state and allocates slots in accordance with EC Regulation 95/93 (as amended).
 
Joost
Topic Author
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 9:13 pm

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 1):
Well, i think O'Leary has a very short term memory, a kind of ability to forget thing when he wants ... FR had a double daily flight from London (from STN, but i may be wrong) to Strasbourg which was suspended when the chamber of commerce of Strasbourg suspended it's subsidy ...

So, well? It was ruled that he could not get a subsidy. A subsidy issued by the COC, so they were willing to pay it. Without the subsidy, it evidently was not a viable business case, so he withdrew. What's wrong?

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 3):
Why should an airline receive money from the taxpayers to fly places?

Okay, just wait a second... O'Leary had to pay back subsidies because they were illegal, and he did. Now, he feels AF gets subsidies - why shouldn't he complain? He had to pay it back after AF brought him to court - isn't it a logical reaction?


You give the anwer yourself: to boost tourism. There are rules about that, especially after the Charleroi case, and one of the most important is that the subsidies must be open for all carriers. Many, many, many regions support their airport financially. Nothing wrong with that, when it's ruled well.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 5):
It's really laughable. The company which comes to an airport only if it receives local subsidies (like in Strasbourg) is now complaining about "low landing fees".



Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 6):
O' Leary is the biggest hypocrit around, since he had his junk airline subsidized by the Wallonia federal governement in Belgium to operate from Charleroi ( sorry Brussels South... ) The European Commission ruled that he had to pay this aid / subsidy back. What a miserable crook...
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 9:14 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 12):
Sorry but COHOR is not run by the French Government. It is independant of the French state and allocates slots in accordance with EC Regulation 95/93 (as amended).

I stand corrected then.
But you get the point what I want to say. It is a fact that AF gets backed by the government wherever it is possible!

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 9:38 pm

France is among the curruptest countries in Europe -the most recent scandals about "Clearstream" are just a tiny indicator on how politics,national stratetic business ,secret services and "filiéres" are inter-related.
Air France is a master-piece of french protection strategy and nobody can seriously mange to put anything forward against AF- the big boys will always prevail.
It started already under the socialists who put about 10 Billion FF into (1,5 B € ) bancrupt AF -tax payer money that was- to keep the company afloat.
Yes there is free competition in France but slots in key airports are still handled in souspicious ways -while local airport management is kept in the hands of circles that are rarely in opposition to the Paris Governement(s ).
It's either people lile Vivendi-Keolia-CCI's who get the airports or so called "Sydicats mixed" composed of mayors of cities close to an airport. They don't have a clue on how to run an airport but want to keep the political hands over a strategic location and developpement tool.(see Nîmes..)
Foreign service-companies don't play any role in french airport management (like in Brussels where australians run the show..)
Ryanair are fully right to complain ,since the facts are demonstratable.Air France enjoys a complacency among french politicians that might be comparable to other European national airlines but which is in contradiction to european competetive law.
You have to understand the complexity of the french political machinery to realize how rotten the sytame is.
Just a most recent example -the judge who was supposed to instruct a commission scandal involving french politicians during the sale of war-ships to Taiwan,endorsed anonymous letters accusing some politicians from an ex-EADS manager .....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 9:42 pm

Ah ... Beaucaire and his "mafia is everywhere" theories ...
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 9:56 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 16):
Ah ... Beaucaire and his "mafia is everywhere" theories ...

If you follow the most recent news in french politics you cant' deny....
TV is not neccessarily the best media to discover the truth.
I still do love the country -that's why I live here -but that does not mean I believe all the crap distributed by journalists that are in the pockets of the owners of TV stations or news-papers.
You can always try to consider Air France as a normal airline -which is true in the pure legal sense - but there are just to many "co-incidents " that just maintain my suspicions.
That saying I maintain my very good opinion about Air France as a great service-provider and safe airline.On-bord service is quite good in comparison with other network carriers and prices on long-haul are competetive.
But as Ryanair indicate,their revenue on domestic and european flights are over the top and in no relation to the prices quoted for intercontinental services.


L’Index des Perceptions de la Corruption

Classement Pays Score
1 Danemark 10,0
2 Finlande 9,6
3 Suède 9,5
4 Nouvelle-Zélande 9,4
5 Islande 9,3
6 Canada 9,2
7 Singapour 9,1
8 Pays-Bas/Norvège 9,0
10 Suisse 8,9
11 Australie/Luxembourg/Royaume-Uni 8,7
14 Irlande 8,2
15 Allemagne 7,9
16 Hong-Kong 7,8
17 Autriche/Etats-Unis 7,5
19 Israël 7,2
20 Chili 6,8
21 France 6,7
22 Portugal 6,5
23 Botswana 6,1
Source : Transparency International
Ce classement est basé sur les perceptions du degré de corruption régnant dans les divers pays. Les perceptions sont celles des hommes d'affaires, de spécialistes du risque-pays et du grand public et les scores s'échelonnent de 10 (pays très propre) à 0 (pays très corrompu).

[Edited 2006-05-12 15:13:18]
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting BCAL (Reply 9):
Are you saying that all French people do not want to be able to fly cheaply and prefer to pay twice for their air fares

strangely enough whenever I fly ORY-NCE-ORY, EZ is more expensive than AF, so much for the cheaper theory....

Quoting BCAL (Reply 9):
fly cheaply

well I think indeed this should be interepreted to the full extent....
if you mean rude and scarce service, no seat assignment, flying from Paris-Beauvais (gimme a break 100km from downtown) then I can say a majority of the French doesn't want a downward evolution.

also to finish with, yes you are a Rosbif not a Rostbif  Wink

Beaucaire: vas-y nous prend pas la tête!
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 18):
strangely enough whenever I fly ORY-NCE-ORY, EZ is more expensive than AF, so much for the cheaper theory....

If you fly Sunday 14th may from ORY to NCE and back on the 16th,on Easyjet it is 251 €/return all inclusive. Air France is 451 €/all inclusive....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Fri May 12, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 18):
whenever I fly ORY-NCE-ORY, EZ is more expensive than AF

I have often found EZ's fares on par or more expensive than BA, but that is normally when you book late or chose to travel at a peak period. If you are flexible with your travel dates, book early, and check for special deals, you will normally find fares well below the legacy carriers. If the LCCs' fares were always more expensive than the legacy carriers, they would not be in business. In any event, are the legacy carriers not reducing their fares to remain competitive with the LCCs?

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 18):
if you mean rude and scarce service, no seat assignment, flying from Paris-Beauvais

Are you saying that on every FR flight the service is rude? Whilst you might occasionally come across a rude F/A or ground agent, this is the exception rather than the rule. I have always found FR F/As helpful, polite, and professional. The ground agents are normally the same teams that handle the legacy carriers at some airports, so there is no difference in standards of service there.

Excepting seat assignments and perhaps limited assistance on the odd occasions when things might not go according to plan, the only major differences in service are that the LCCs do not offer any 'free' in-flight meal or beverage, no IFE and no 'free' newspaper. So what? The flight is normally short and you only paid €35 for the fare, so why should you expect a free cup of coffee? I hate unassigned seats too, but if I am saving a significant amount in the air fare, I can live with it. Besides, people board quicker and that can mean a faster departure, so less likelihood of a delay.

You know that FR flies from secondary airports before you travel with them. If this is inconvenient, and not worth the saving, fly with someone else. Why is it assumed that everyone lives in a centre of a town and wants to travel to the centre of another town? Some passengers must live nearer (say) Beauvais than CDG, so that airport might perhaps be more convenient for them. Besides, this thread is talking about Marseilles. FR is not flying to Genoa (Marseilles East). It is using the same airport as AF.

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 18):
yes you are a Rosbif not a Rostbif

 embarrassed 

A.net spell checker said it was Rostbif so I am innocent!!!!

MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 19):
If you fly Sunday 14th may from ORY to NCE and back on the 16th,on Easyjet it is 251 €/return all inclusive. Air France is 451 €/all inclusive....

And if you fly ORY-NCE on saturday 20th and return on Monday 22nd, the AF fare is ...205€...which is a measly 46€ cheaper than the EasyJet fare you quoted.
And if you booked now a trip in November, I'm sure you could go as low as 116€ return.( By the way, you forgot to mention that the ORY-NCE fare was 58€ on that day and because of heavy loads the NCE-ORY was 394€)

(all above fares include taxes,which mister O'L never quotes)

That's the beauty of a good yield management system

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17):
that does not mean I believe all the crap distributed by journalists that are in the pockets of the owners of TV stations or news-papers

Are you quoting the UK where mister Murdoch all but controls 75% of the media, the Italy of signor Berlusconi or the USa of (again) mister Murdoch and Co ?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 17):
You can always try to consider Air France as a normal airline -which is true in the pure legal sense - but there are just to many "co-incidents " that just maintain my suspicions.

You said it :"suspicions", with a modicum of prejudice.
I'll be happy, and others too, I "suspect", to open an argument on the subject.
Your call.

Before we go any further, Air France is far more concerned with the TGV in France, and EK internationally, than it is with the LCCs :Only 30% of AF traffic is comparable to the LCC service (short and medium point-to-point) and on these, a lot doesn't present any interest for the LCCs (POS lines in particular).
On the majority of these connections, AF is able to give them a run for their money and the major lines are already quite crowded.
That said,there is a bright future for the LCCs in Europe and I personally admire their drive. What annoys me is Mr O'L's vulgarity and his publicity stunts.

[Edited 2006-05-12 17:09:32]
Contrail designer
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
What annoys me is Mr O'L's vulgarity and his publicity stunts.

Take them with a pinch of salt. When in public, he often opens his mouth before thinking and is speaking what is on his mind. At work, he is direct and can be abrupt. Privately, he is rumoured to be a calm, pleasant and sort of person you would want for a friend. MOL shuns publicity and, unlike Branson, he does not like a camera to be shoved at his face or up his ar*e wherever he goes.

Like you, I originally thought MOL's publicity stunts were rude and vulgar. Now I think some of them are brilliant and direct to the point. Besides, he got you talking, so his publicity must be effective!
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 12:32 am

Don't you love MOL, too ?

First he rants at the EC in the worst way possible, now he seeks its help.

I'm eager to see the reults of this...
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 12:33 am

BCAL,
Thanks for reminding me to be more objective.
But how can I trust someone who "opens his mouth before thinking" ?
Contrail designer
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 24):
But how can I trust someone who "opens his mouth before thinking" ?

Better having someone who says what is on their mind rather than someone who lies, n'est ce pas?

 bigthumbsup 
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
Are you quoting the UK where mister Murdoch all but controls 75% of the media, the Italy of signor Berlusconi or the USa of (again) mister Murdoch and Co ?

It is not because the UK or Italy have a deplorable monopoly in media-dominance that France has to imitate bad habits -one should thrive for better sytems rather than copy bad ones...
I quote France because the thread was related to Ryanair and it's intention to accuse Air France for what they consider an unfair ,preferred treatment.
The competition with the TGV on domestic travel has been extensively discussed on various forums including a.net -I don't want to open this chapter again.( other than to say TGV has an advatage over airlines in that RFF enjoys substantial subsidies from the state and hence we all subsidize train travel through our taxes...)
Yes- you can find very cheap fares on Air France domestically -but the famous saturday night rule or lenghty advanced booking rules make it not really attractive for business-travel or short-decision travels within the week.
I don't accuse Air France of making money-they must make and earn lots of money -but I accuse them of being a beneficiary of political red-carpeting in many areas.(slot allocation in COHOR,political support to obtain landing rights ,very favourable treatments in legal matters like 14 years delay for the Mont Saint Odile trial !!! )
Again- I admire Air France for the way they run their business -but I deplore the un-equal opportunity scenario for competetive airlines.
Slots in ORY are given away with very uncomprehensive criteria - some german airlines requested slots in ORY and never got them,despite ORY not being congested.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
olympicbis
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:32 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 8):
So you believe that by negotiating a business deal with Charleroi Airport's managers, who wanted FR to use their under utilised airport and bring in thousands of passengers who might then spend money in the area or at the airport, and then sticking to his part of the bargain, MOL is a crook?

Oh no, he is not a crook for that, there are so many other reasons why he is a crook. As far as Charleroi being underutilized, if there was no Ryanair, it would have been another LCC carrier, so Charleroi would not have collapsed without FR. The so-called "business deal" was not negociated with Charleroi Airport managers but with the federal Minister in charge of transport for that region of Belgium. Another crook if you prefer.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 8):
Well I hardly think that it can be a "junk" airline if an average of 77,000 passengers use it every day, and the airline is highly profitable. True they offer no frills, and perhaps could improve their customer relations, but they have enabled me and many others who normally VFR once or twice a year, to now VFR far more frequently. Last time I VFRd the fare on FR was €35 inclusive of taxes. Legacy carriers used to charge a minimum of €500, and insisted that I had to stay a Saturday night otherwise the fare doubled.

I think that when you will experience what Ryanair really is, like for examples being left stranded in some obscure place like thousands of passengers already have experienced, you will then understand what I mean by junk airline. Even if they would carry a million pax a day, that does not justify many of their practices. I did not say an airline is good because of frills only, many LCCs are very good - Jetblue, Southwest, Virgin Express or Virgin Blue, Easyjet without offering the frills. They just treat their passengers correctly when things go wrong.
"Improve their customer relations" : WHICH customer relations ?

I flew BRU-BHX, BRU-LYS, BRU-BCN with SN and Virgin for prices ranging from as low as € 59 to €90, all in :

- without being worried about a possible cancellation for so called bad
weather while all others are operating normally...
- without being charged for my luggage and for nothing more
- without having to drive to the end of the world
- with my seat reserved
- with an orderly boarding
- with an excellent cabin service - like on SN
- and without having to worry about the safety factor - have you seen some
TV recently about it, the whole of Europe did.
- and without even any Saturday rule - you surprise me here
I just tried to plan my trip early enough and booked my tickets also enough in advance so got a good deal. If you do the same, you will soon realize that you can fly with good airlines at affordable prices.
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 2:54 am

Im getting really annoyed with mr FR

He keeps basing the BA Longhaul Fuel charge on there euro routes. And keeps going on about it. They have there security charge there fleecing passengers with, and dont have any come back to it.

BA's Fuel charge on international has nothing to do with there euro flts.
More fuel is carried, more cost for landing fees, heavier aircraft more passengers, and all that. Hes jsut trying to get advertising by being stupid
Where does the time go???
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 26):
It is not because the UK or Italy have a deplorable monopoly in media-dominance that France has to imitate bad habits -one should thrive for better sytems rather than copy bad ones...

Examples, then please !

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 26):
Yes- you can find very cheap fares on Air France domestically -but the famous saturday night rule or lenghty advanced booking rules make it not really attractive for business-travel or short-decision travels within the week.

The Saturday rule no longer applies with Air france, which has gone to a lot more advanced Yield management system. You must mistske AF with the trans-Manche ferries, my friend. As for the lengthy advanced booking, give me an airline that doesn't.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 26):
they must make and earn lots of money -but I accuse them of being a beneficiary of political red-carpeting in many areas.(slot allocation in COHOR,political support to obtain landing rights ,very favourable treatments in legal matters like 14 years delay for the Mont Saint Odile trial !!! )

A lot of subjects in one sentence !
1/- Slot allocation... See grandfather rules ; the definition is available on Google.
2/- Landing rights... I don't see any difference with ANY other airline, or can you give more of your info ?
3/- as for the MtSO accident, a) it was an Air Inter airplane b) the french system of accident investigation /judicial is very well documented and the trial would have been held long ago, had the plaintiffs stopped trying to bring conspiracy charges through a bunch of so-called experts.
I really do not understand how you could live in the merde of a banana republic.
This is my last post on this subject. I prefer technical facts to biased untruths. But that's just me.
Contrail designer
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 27):
I think that when you will experience what Ryanair really is

I was dreading my first flight with FR, but the experience was nothing like I had expected. The plane was clean and looked well maintained, F/As demonstrated safety procedures professionally, we arrived bang on time on both legs, luggage arrived, ground staff and cabin crew polite and courteous, so they were perfectly adequate for a short flight. I have flown with them several time since, and I have not experienced any problems at all.

If I am flying on a LCC paying a fare of €50, from an obscure airport with few other scheduled services, then I do not expect to be put up in a hotel at the airline's expense or transferred to another airline for free. I have travel insurance to cover me on all my trips. "Thousands" stranded? I think it has only been on a handful of flights where this happened. I think that the press, always anxious to knock FR as this news sells, over exaggerated the problems when services were cancelled and passengers were left stranded.

U2 might be better in looking after their passengers when things go wrong, but I think you will find their fares are often higher than FR's fares are.

Virgin Express? And where are they today? Hardly a successful airline in comparison to FR.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
olympicbis
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:32 pm

RE: O'Leary Complains To EC About AF Aid By French Gov

Sat May 13, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 30):
I think it has only been on a handful of flights where this happened. I think that the press, always anxious to knock FR as this news sells, over exaggerated the problems when services were cancelled and passengers were left stranded.

I am afraid there are many more people than that who were left where they were, I have read enough testimonies on sites like Skytrax about such stories which were in that case not exaggerated by the press.
Flying FR is some kind of a gamble that I am not prepared to risk. For € 20 or 30 extra - and in some cases even for the same price or less - you can fly with serious people. This is everybody's own choice in the end.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], benrgv, CHCalfonzo, deltaflyertoo, djsflynn, Exabot [Bot], faucett, guppyflyer, ikolkyo, karungguni, kbmiflyer, LGAviation, Mexicana757, Milesdependent, rotating14, TUSAA and 254 guests