v2fix
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Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sat May 13, 2006 9:06 pm

In a separate thread about 2 weeks ago it was revealed that Air New Zealand was securing a 9th 744 to cover the AKL-HKG-LHR/LHR-LAX-AKL service.

Can I ask

[1] What does an airline use to rate a second hand aircraft ?

Miles Flown. Previous Operators. Maintainence history sprung to mind. Knowing each aircraft is a little different in thirstiness in fuel - can a prospective buyer find out this information.

One NZ 744 was known a bit of a sick child (pre refit/rebuild) - how do you avoid picking up another one ?
742; 744; DC10, DC3, 321, 320, 319, 170,190, 772, 773,333, 346, 343
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 12:56 am

Engine type plays another key decision making point.
Aircraft are typically rated by the number of 'cycles' they have done ie takeoffs, landings.

As for the 9th aircraft... NZ can currently operate its NZ 1/2, 5/6 flights plus the new AKL-HKG-LHR flights NZ38/39 using 8x 744 with enough coverage for one aircraft to be spare most of the time...

A 9th aircraft would only be needed for ongoing Japan flights, South America (highly unlikely), SFO coverage in place of 772ER (a lot of these flights are full).
One other big factor is NZ's long awaited decision on 744 replacement... does it go for 12x 773ER in place of 8x744? or does it go for 8x748I? or does it wait for Boeing's Y3 (which is expected to be brought forward to around 2012 due to Airbus's 2nd new A350). I'd say that if Boeing can have Y3 going in 2012 then NZ will hold out for that. Otherwise I'd say the 748I. I just don't see the 773ER as having the capacity especially for premium customers on NZ's high value routes.
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v2fix
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 1:36 am

Thanks for the info.

I thought the 9th 744 was required to cover for maintainence/craft being unavailable etc even for just the 2 daily LAX-LHR flights.

So if no extra 744 than Japan flights cannot be 744s, right ?

I thought of engine type - must as Air NZ have outsource the engine maintainence - is this as much of a signifcant factor ?
742; 744; DC10, DC3, 321, 320, 319, 170,190, 772, 773,333, 346, 343
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting V2fix (Reply 2):
Thanks for the info.

I thought the 9th 744 was required to cover for maintainence/craft being unavailable etc even for just the 2 daily LAX-LHR flights.

So if no extra 744 than Japan flights cannot be 744s, right ?

I thought of engine type - must as Air NZ have outsource the engine maintainence - is this as much of a signifcant factor ?

NZ only has 1 daily return LAX-LHR flight.
It is soon to have HKG-LHR return daily also.
2.5 aircraft are needed for the return AKL-LHR for each flight ie 5 a/c
1.5 a/c required for MEL-AKL-LAX return daily... 6.5 a/c
plus daily AKL-BNE return 0.5 a/c so total of 7 a/c

NZ has 8. One is often in mx for overhaul/heavy mx, or general mx, and the rest of the time it is spare, perhaps operating AKL-SFO in place of a 772ER, or operating up to Japan. A 9th a/c could be useful but isn't necessary.

NZ currently does its own mx. Engine mx is being outsourced for the new RR Trent engines (777, 787 etc).. not sure about current 747 RR and GE engines... Still inhouse I think? not sure on that one. Either way it doesn't matter too much as NZ operates 2 of the 3 744 engine types.
Performance and mx wise there are varying opinions on RR and GE. Looks wise the RR is so much sexier on the 744!! smooth lines, look more grunty  Smile
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NZ1
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
not sure about current 747 RR and GE engines... Still inhouse I think?

That has now been outsourced as well.

If we DID get another 744, it would be CF6-80C2 powered.

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planemanofnz
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 8:05 am

Maybe NZ is looking at other routes in europe or maybe Australia-America might be on the agenda?

Would NZ use 747's to South America? They could fly a route like AKL-GRU/GIG-FRA/MAN/LHR/CDG?
 
Carpethead
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 10:30 am

At least they have the choice of either GE or RR powered aircraft for its 9th 744. However, airframes with those engines seem to be unavailable. Perhaps NH will sell one as they are using one on domestic routes.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
or operating up to Japan.

Japan is no longer 744 territory. The NRT-AKL/CHC is now exclusively 777 and KIX-AKL/CHC is 763 switching to 777 later this summer. There could be equipment swaps but no longer are 744s regulars.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
A 9th a/c could be useful but isn't necessary.

Zkpilot, I think you should check again and figure where each a/c is at a point in time. If you use midnight AKL time after November 1st. you will find that 7 are in the air and 1 is on the ground at LHR.
Assuming the present use of two 747's AKL-MEL/BNE daily return, one a/c could be on the ground in AKL each day for about 12 to 14 hours. Not sure how long it takes NZ1 and his colleagues to do an engine change but something as major as this away from home would severely disrupt the schedule. NZ would need to think about maintaining their 747 engines to the ETOPS180 standards that they use on their 767's.
To me, such a schedule does not look sustainable with 8 aircraft
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1):
One other big factor is NZ's long awaited decision on 744 replacement... does it go for 12x 773ER in place of 8x744? or does it go for 8x748I?

Maybe by the time NZ get round to making that decision, the A380 will also be a possible contender; this given Fyfe's bullish growth demands for the next five years (I hope they're realised).

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flyjetstar
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 12:58 pm

"Fyfe suggests that the airline's 747-400 replacement time is 2012-13 and hasn't ruled out leasing some more 747-400 capacity in the near term."

From The Australian newspaper last week.

I guess it's just one option amongst many. Any news on the much talked about 773 order from NZ?
 
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 2:22 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 7):
Not sure how long it takes NZ1 and his colleagues to do an engine change

On average, it takes us about 10 hours from picking the aircraft up from the gate, to returning it there afterwards.

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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 7:04 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 7):
Zkpilot, I think you should check again and figure where each a/c is at a point in time. If you use midnight AKL time after November 1st. you will find that 7 are in the air and 1 is on the ground at LHR.
Assuming the present use of two 747's AKL-MEL/BNE daily return, one a/c could be on the ground in AKL each day for about 12 to 14 hours. Not sure how long it takes NZ1 and his colleagues to do an engine change but something as major as this away from home would severely disrupt the schedule. NZ would need to think about maintaining their 747 engines to the ETOPS180 standards that they use on their 767's.
To me, such a schedule does not look sustainable with 8 aircraft

AKL-LHR 24 hours each way plus factor in some extra time equates to 2.5 aircraft for each route.
MEL-AKL-LAX return 16 hours each way plus some extra time say total 36 hours = 1.5 a/c
AKL-BNE return = 11 hours plus a bit extra... so really only 0.5 of a plane...

that boys and girls leaves a grand total of 7 aircraft... plus 1 spare for mx purposes, to fill in, or to operate special flights (ie extra LAX NZ3/4 etc).

So how do you figure a/c utilization SunriseValley?
Oh and also this has worked with up to 2 aircraft being refited at a time on the current flight schedule and aircraft parked up at AKL for several hours a day, plus the LAX long layovers and occasional Japan/SFO flights.  Wink
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koruman
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 7:28 pm

The main issue here is that the Japan to AKL routes continue to underperform, and there is simply no demand for 747-sized aircraft to Narita and Kansai.

The 747s only fly to MEL and BNE during the day to give them something to do between arriving from the USA at AKL at 6 am, and returning to the USA in the evening. It keeps the aircraft busy and provides one daily flight with a superior product to the dreaded A320s. All Business and almost all Premium Economy traffic between BNE and AKL takes the 747 flight, and many of those passengers are connecting on to the USA.

Frankly, the only route apart from LAX and LHR which might justify 747 services is turning out to be San Francisco. As expected, almost all Business and Premium Economy passengers from New Zealand and Australia who are flying to North America beyond California are choosing to connect to UA domestic flights at SFO instead of LAX.

The only problem SFO has is that the tourist market disapppears in its winter, although in December a lot of tourist travel from SFO to Australia and New Zealand suddenly starts, coinciding with American school holidays.
 
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 7:40 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 12):
The main issue here is that the Japan to AKL routes continue to underperform, and there is simply no demand for 747-sized aircraft to Narita and Kansai.

exactly.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 12):
The 747s only fly to MEL and BNE during the day to give them something to do between arriving from the USA at AKL at 6 am, and returning to the USA in the evening. It keeps the aircraft busy and provides one daily flight with a superior product to the dreaded A320s. All Business and almost all Premium Economy traffic between BNE and AKL takes the 747 flight, and many of those passengers are connecting on to the USA.

yup.

Be nice to have an extra 744 however I must say  Smile
There is the possibility of SFO returning to 744s on certain days especially when the CHC-LAX starts up again with 772ER 3x weekly.
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 7:42 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
Oh and also this has worked with up to 2 aircraft being refited at a time

Only 1 aircraft has ever been in for refitting at any point in time.

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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 8:01 pm

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 14):
Only 1 aircraft has ever been in for refitting at any point in time.

What were the last 2 doing in mx together for more than a few days at least?
I was told they were both being refited... one went in about 3 weeks before the 2nd one... as CHC-LAX routes had been canned, and Japan flights had been canned for 744s.. was one getting some other kind of heavy mx?

[Edited 2006-05-14 13:03:46]
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 11):
So how do you figure a/c utilization SunriseValley?

I took it off the Star Alliance timetable. At midnight November 1st AKL time there are 2 a/c AKL-LAX and 2 LAX-AKL and 1 on the ground at LHR. There is 1 AKL-HKG, 1 HKG-LHR and 1 HKG-AKL. That makes 8.
 
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Sun May 14, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 10):
On average, it takes us about 10 hours from picking the aircraft up from the gate, to returning it there afterwards.

NZ1 , are there any other items of unscheduled maintenance that take more than 4 or 5 hours?
 
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Tue May 16, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 16):
I took it off the Star Alliance timetable. At midnight November 1st AKL time there are 2 a/c AKL-LAX and 2 LAX-AKL and 1 on the ground at LHR. There is 1 AKL-HKG, 1 HKG-LHR and 1 HKG-AKL. That makes 8.

Under current scheduling presumably? Still to be streamlined for the twice daily LHR?

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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Tue May 16, 2006 7:59 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 18):
Under current scheduling presumably? Still to be streamlined for the twice daily LHR?

No, what I illustrated was where each of the 8 aircraft would be at a point in time under the 2X daily schedule to LHR. My point was to show that it took 8 aircraft to operate the schedule as opposed to Zkpilots assertion that it could be done with 7.
 
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Wed May 17, 2006 3:34 pm

Lets see here, all 8 will be utilized when AKL-HKG-LHR starts!

MEL-AKL-LAX 2 aircraft
BNE-AKL-LAX-LHR 3 aircraft
AKL-HKG-LHR 2.5 aircraft

The AKL-HKG-LHR aircraft sits on the fround from 1045am till the evening when it will fly out to LAX or HKG again! Hardly enough time to do heavy maintanence or if an aircraft goes U/S.

Under the current draft schedule for the proposed QF/NZ Tasman Codeshare its looks like SYD will recieve the 744 rather than MEL, though QF will operate a 744 to MEL as they do now from AKL.

As for the 9th 744 i'd imagine that maybe AF or KL could be a good source.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
What were the last 2 doing in mx together for more than a few days at least?
I was told they were both being refited... one went in about 3 weeks before the 2nd one... as CHC-LAX routes had been canned, and Japan flights had been canned for 744s.. was one getting some other kind of heavy mx?

ZK-SUH is the last non refitted aircraft and often isn't used, it only goes to OZ now. Remember the other 744's require maintanence aswell in the 767 hangar, I doubt they would do a refit on a 744 in there, anyway. I believe ZK-NBS is currently receiving a D check aswell as the upgrade.
 
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:48 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
What were the last 2 doing in mx together for more than a few days at least?
I was told they were both being refited... one went in about 3 weeks before the 2nd one... as CHC-LAX routes had been canned, and Japan flights had been canned for 744s.. was one getting some other kind of heavy mx?

While one was in for its refit, another was in for a 4A check, which takes 4 - 5 days. It wasn't in 3 weeks before ZK-NBU left the hangar.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 17):
NZ1 , are there any other items of unscheduled maintenance that take more than 4 or 5 hours?

Quite a few. In fact the list could be endless. Main ones would be, engine changes, landing gear oleo seal replacement, flap changes to name a few.

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 20):
I doubt they would do a refit on a 744 in there, anyway.

You would be right. Only checks up to 4A are done in the "767" hangar, which is officially called hangar 2.

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 20):
I believe ZK-NBS is currently receiving a D check aswell as the upgrade.

Thats right. Rolls out on June 12th

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boeing767-300
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Wed May 17, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 4):
If we DID get another 744, it would be CF6-80C2 powered.

NZ1 has ANZ a preference for CF6-80C2 over RB211 and why?
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Thu May 18, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 22):
NZ1 has ANZ a preference for CF6-80C2 over RB211 and why?

I can think of three reasons, perhaps none are the real one, but one could be fuel burn , another is that their RB211's have been upgraded with a Trent ??? core and the another would be spare engines. NZ should own a healthy number of CF6 spares given that they use the same engine on both the 747 and 767 and the 767 fleet is being reduced.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Thu May 18, 2006 10:01 am

Hmmm I still think the RB211 is the sexier looking engine.....  Wink looks don't count however..
The CF6 fits better mx wise with the fleet 767,747 as SunriseValley just mentioned.
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Thu May 18, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 24):
is the sexier looking engine

It has a bigger orifice at the back end, is that it? duck 
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Thu May 18, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 25):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 24):
is the sexier looking engine

It has a bigger orifice at the back end, is that it?

haha it just looks sleeker, looks more powerful, and looks more modern. (that doesn't say much for the GE90/Trent 900-1000 I know lol)
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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Thu May 18, 2006 6:03 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 22):
NZ1 has ANZ a preference for CF6-80C2 over RB211 and why?

CF6, mainly because of fuel economy and parts commonality across the 767 fleet.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 23):
NZ should own a healthy number of CF6 spares given that they use the same engine on both the 747 and 767 and the 767 fleet is being reduced.

We have 4 spare CF6-80C2B1/6F's used on the 744 and on 4 of the 763's. And we have 3 spare CF6-80C2B6's used on the other 763's. Just to clarify, the 763's have 2 different types of CF6-80C2. The type with the F on the end stands for FADEC, and is best thought of as a digital fuel control, whereas the type with no F on the end is a PMC engine, and can be regarded as a mechanical fuel control.

ZK-NCG,H,I,J have the PMC version. CF6-80C2B6
ZK-NCK,L,O have the FADEC version. CF6-80C2B6F
ZK-NBV,W, ZK-SUH,I,J have FADEC engines. CF6-80C2B1F

The difference between a B1F and a B6F is the thrust rating of the engine. A B6F is higher thrust.

These 2 types are not interchangeable for the 767, however the FADEC engines on the 767 ARE interchangeable with the engines on the 744 which are all FADEC.

Hope this all makes sense to you guys. Makes perfect sense to me  Smile

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RE: Air NZ's 9th 744 : Progress?

Thu May 18, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 27):
Hope this all makes sense to you guys. Makes perfect sense to me

We would sure hope so since you're an aircraft engineer and all....  Wink
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