JoKeR
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Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 12:04 am

Is today's landing and departure by Airbus Industrie's A318, the biggest aircraft to land and depart LCY?



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Humberside
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting JoKeR (Thread starter):
s today's landing and departure by Airbus Industrie's A318, the biggest aircraft to land and depart LCY?

Almost certainly
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BMIFlyer
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting JoKeR (Thread starter):
Is today's landing and departure by Airbus Industrie's A318, the biggest aircraft to land and depart LCY?

Yes, at last, it arrives Big grin



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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 2:09 am

This should then greatly help increase the chances for new customers right? Or is this just a drop in the ocean?
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 3:06 am

Possibly one of the most likely airlines to use the aircraft at LCY is existing customer Air France?
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Door5Right
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 4:35 am

This is part of the certification programme to prove the A318's ability to handle a 5.5 degree approach. Looks good!
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GEEZ
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 4:45 am

Damn! How could I miss this!?!

I only live a mile due south of LCY  Sad
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FlySSC
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 4):
Possibly one of the most likely airlines to use the aircraft at LCY is existing customer Air France?

The A318 is only operated by Air France, Frontier and Mexicana ... I doubt the last two could fly it into LCY.

All AF flights to LCY are operated by AF's subsidiary airline CITYJET with Bae146.
AF's A318 fleet is based at CDG.
6 x DAILY flights are operated from/to Orly Airport. 1 single DAILY flight only is operated from CDG, still by CityJet. This frequency could be operated by AF's own A318 but I don't see why ... the Bae146 are perfectly adapted to this line and the A318 wouldn't even boost the capacity offered as the Bae146 are equipped with 94 seats (Bae146-200) or 100 seats (Bae146-300) and the A318 with 123 seats.


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mariner
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
This frequency could be operated by AF's own A318 but I don't see why

So what are you saying? That we should just accept the world as it is, and not move on, not try for anything new?

That Air France will stick with their BAE 146 forever, even though other airlines are getting rid of theirs?

Okay.

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grimey
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 5:45 am

The A318 cannot fly on a regular service to LCY because of noise regulations, thats why AF/Cityjet use the Bae 146 from CDG & DUB. I watched on programme on Discovery Wings all about the Bae 146 and it is the only jet engineed aircraft to operate regular service in LCY because:
1) It is quite and won't break the noise regulations LCY have in place for being an airport in the middle of a busy city.
2) The Bae 146 can land on a short enough runway without the need for reverse thrust.

Grimey
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Grimey (Reply 9):
The A318 cannot fly on a regular service to LCY because of noise regulations, thats why AF/Cityjet use the Bae 146 from CDG & DUB. I watched on programme on Discovery Wings all about the Bae 146 and it is the only jet engineed aircraft to operate regular service in LCY because:
1) It is quite and won't break the noise regulations LCY have in place for being an airport in the middle of a busy city.
2) The Bae 146 can land on a short enough runway without the need for reverse thrust.

Grimey

That is pure BS.

Do you really think Airbus would go through the cost of certifying an aircraft type at LCY if afterwards it could not fly there?

The whole reason of certifying the aircraft type from what I know is more for A319 CJ customers rather than AF. That said, the fact that it is certified may bring some orders airbuses way as carriers replace their Avro's/Bae's.
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Grimey (Reply 9):
2) The Bae 146 can land on a short enough runway without the need for reverse thrust.

Not quite right

1 the Bae 146 doesnt even have T/R and only uses speed breaks and gear breaks.

2 Thrust reverse isnt even in the manuals for the breaking distance, for example on an airbus A318 on landing at LCY, Autobreaks Mid: would be used, meaning that if the pilot activates T/R the breaks will automatically break less because of the breaking power being equalized by the T/R so the plane could always land without T/R but on T/O of course the Bae 146 is in advantage for noise Big grin

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wingflaps
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 5:57 am

Air France used to fly the Fokker 70 regularly into London City amd Luxair presently uses the Embraer 135.
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 6:00 am

As mentioned already, main reason for the certification at this point is the A318 Elite. One other attraction of the A318 is that it extends the perimeter for operations due to its longer range (which, however, cannot be utilized with full loads, I would assume).

Scheduled operations with the A318 might become a more important factor in the future when the BAe 146 grow older and older. It will then be the only 80+ seat aircraft and the only jet airliner that can operate into LCY.
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Grimey (Reply 9):
I watched on programme on Discovery Wings all about the Bae 146 and it is the only jet engineed aircraft to operate regular service in LCY because:
1) It is quite and won't break the noise regulations LCY have in place for being an airport in the middle of a busy city.
2) The Bae 146 can land on a short enough runway without the need for reverse thrust.

I believe the 328JET is being certified for LCY and ERJ-135's have been used regualrly to LCY in the past (JetMagic). The EMB-170 is alo suitable for LCY flights (this was specified by Crossair when they ordered their aircraft)
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FlySSC
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
So what are you saying?

I am not saying anything else than there is no interest for Air France to replace 1 single Daily CDG-LCY with a Bae146, by 1 Daily CDG-LCY with an A318.
"Runway23" is right when he says (reply#10) that this whole campain of certification is not particularly made for AF to operate its A318 into LCY ...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
That Air France will stick with their BAE 146 forever, even though other airlines are getting rid of theirs?

Air France is not operating those Bae146. They are operated by a subsidiary. Yes they will be replaced. Yes there are many plans for a replacement and a complete renewal of AF's subsidiaries regional fleet (Regional Airlines, Brit'Air ...) but for this renewal, it seems that AF is looking more toward Brazil ... rather than Toulouse...
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Grimey (Reply 9):
The A318 cannot fly on a regular service to LCY because of noise regulations, thats why AF/Cityjet use the Bae 146 from CDG & DUB. I watched on programme on Discovery Wings all about the Bae 146 and it is the only jet engined aircraft to operate regular service in LCY because:
1) It is quite and won't break the noise regulations LCY have in place for being an airport in the middle of a busy city.
2) The Bae 146 can land on a short enough runway without the need for reverse thrust

Some of the programmes shown on Discovery Wings are a few years old and have been shown several times before all the facts are generally correct at the time of filming.

The only problem I see for the A318 is its footprint on the ground during peak times.
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 8:04 am

Gentlemen, you may be interested in the following taken from the CAA Board minutes of February 2006 (which are in the public domain) with regard to the certification of the A318 for 5.5 degree approaches at LCY

"Despite the substantial size increase over the BAe 146, this later generation aircraft should be safer overall."
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 8:15 am

I'd rather fly into LCY than LGW or LHR, especially now the DLR expansion is up and running. NW / KL routing of MSP-AMS-LCY is sometimes the same price as MSP-LGW. I hope allowing larger aircraft will open the door to making LCY an affordable alternative to the two big airports in London.

Now who wants to try a B735 or B736 at LCY?

Mark

[Edited 2006-05-14 01:26:12]
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 8:15 am

This steep approach certification can be used at other airports other than LCY correct? What other airports have/require steep approach procedures? LUG comes to mind unless I am behind the times. Would this steep approach certification done at LCY also qualify it for use at LUG as well? Assuming the runway is long enough there, I don't really know, but you get the drift of what I am asking I hope.
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting AvroArrow (Reply 19):
This steep approach certification can be used at other airports other than LCY correct?

SDU comes to mind, I believe it also requires a rather steep approach angle, though SDU's runways are about 600 feet shorter than 10/28 at LCY.
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
I doubt the last two could fly it into LCY.

With three (correct?) large international airports in the London area, I think AF might be better off focusing on a more feasible location (i.e. MAN, Birmingham).

Quite off topic, but does anybody know the status of Sheffield airport? I've heard its a heli-port now.

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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 14):
The EMB-170 is alo suitable for LCY flights (this was specified by Crossair when they ordered their aircraft)

Crossair ordered EMB-170?!?!?! WHAT?!

Was the E-170 even being planned and developed when Crossair became SWISS?

I've flown out of LCY, I loved the takeoff in the 146, it seemed even more powerful than a 757 and was louder than any other 146 takeoff I've ever experienced. Great flight, and I love that little airport.

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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 10:41 am

In order to certify an aircraft for landing at LCY, it must be shown that the airplane can meet the 7.5° abuse glide slope condition.
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runway23
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 10:44 am

Quoting Boeingfanyyz (Reply 21):
With three (correct?) large international airports in the London area, I think AF might be better off focusing on a more feasible location (i.e. MAN, Birmingham).

AF/KL have a sizeable operation at LCY:

Cityjet:
-6x daily to Orly (excl. weekends)
-1x daily to CDG
-5x daily to Dublin

KLM Cityhopper:
-6x daily to AMS

18 flights per day makes the airport quite a sizeable operation for the group.

AF also fly to LGW (2X daily to SXB opb. regional).

And of course LHR (AF 12x daily to CDG; KL - 10x daily AMS, 2x EIN, 3x RTM).

AF/KL are strong to the UK regions with flights to ABZ (AF 3x, KL 4x), BHX (AF 6x, KL 6x), EDI (AF 2x, KL 5x), MAN (AF 5x, KL 7x), NCL (AF 3X, KL 5x) SOU (AF 3X), BRS (KL 4x), CWL (KL 4x), MME (KL 3x), HUY (KL 3x), LBA (KL 3x), NWI (KL 4x), GLA (KL 5x).

Between them AF/KLM have the UK pretty well covered. There isn't much expansion left, if any.
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 22):
Crossair ordered EMB-170?!?!?! WHAT?!

Was the E-170 even being planned and developed when Crossair became SWISS?

IIRC Corsair was one of the first to order the EMB-170. They came so close to getting it that Embraer had a plane all painted up in Corsair titles. I tried to search but couldn't find it.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
SDU comes to mind, I believe it also requires a rather steep approach angle, though SDU's runways are about 600 feet shorter than 10/28 at LCY.

Well, if an A319 can make SDU, I would imagine an A318 would.


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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 25):
Well, if an A319 can make SDU, I would imagine an A318 would.

Probably. I believe Airbus designed a special package for JJ's A319s, so they can reduce any possible problem with the landings at SDU. The same for Boeing, which developed a shortfield package most of all for G3's 737s, which i belive also operate into SDU.
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 3:53 pm

Quoting Grimey (Reply 9):
The A318 cannot fly on a regular service to LCY because of noise regulations, thats why AF/Cityjet use the Bae 146 from CDG & DUB. I watched on programme on Discovery Wings all about the Bae 146 and it is the only jet engineed aircraft to operate regular service in LCY because:
1) It is quite and won't break the noise regulations LCY have in place for being an airport in the middle of a busy city.
2) The Bae 146 can land on a short enough runway without the need for reverse thrust.

Compared to the Bae or AvroJet...The A318 is WHISPER quiet.... and a lot sexier as well.

I'm not a huge Airbus fan, but kudos to the staff for making this happen. Big plans are in the works for LCY, and they're LOOOOONG overdue  Smile
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Humberside
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 6:40 pm

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 25):
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 22):
Crossair ordered EMB-170?!?!?! WHAT?!

Was the E-170 even being planned and developed when Crossair became SWISS?

IIRC Corsair was one of the first to order the EMB-170. They came so close to getting it that Embraer had a plane all painted up in Corsair titles. I tried to search but couldn't find it.

If you tried a search for a Corsair EMB-170, Im surprised you had no luck  Wink
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BBJII
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 8:52 pm

NO....sorry to disappoint you all.


The Hercules C130 of the RAF...ok it's been a while since they were last there.


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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting BBJII (Reply 29):
The Hercules C130 of the RAF...ok it's been a while since they were last there.

Check that! And don't forget, while the A318 may be heavier and have a greater wingspan, the Q400 is LONGER overall at 107'9" vs 103'2" for the 318. So if you're going for length, the Dash beats the Bus.


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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 9:58 pm

Bomber996
It wasn't Corsair but Crossair (which became Swiss International Airlines dba as Swiss), they kept the same code LX, (corsair does charters), Crossair was a regional arm of swissair before they went tits-up.


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vfw614
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting Humberside (Reply 14):

I believe the 328JET is being certified for LCY and ERJ-135's have been used regualrly to LCY in the past (JetMagic). The EMB-170 is alo suitable for LCY flights (this was specified by Crossair when they ordered their aircraft)

- the D328-300 is, to the best of my knowledge, not certified for LCY yet, unlike the D328-100. A couple of months ago Club328 was pushing for certification, but IIRC, it has come to nothing so far.

- AFAIR, it is the E175 that was the one ordered for LCY but apparently Embraer ran into same difficulties with the modifications. So far, no official certification.


Only jet airliners certified so far are the E135, the Avro RJs, the BAe 146s and the Fokker 70. The E135 is somewhat load restricted outbound, while the Fokker 70 has some landing issues (reason why AF replaced it with the Cityjet 146s).
 
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18):
Now who wants to try a B735 or B736 at LCY

Now here's an interesting FACT.

There was talk many years ago with Boeing for the New 717, (when it was new), for the 717 to be tried and tested.

Boeing's R&D team came to LCY and said that the 735 COULD land at LCY at Max Landing weight, but getting it out would be a problem at any resonable payload.

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Leezyjet
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Boeingfanyyz (Reply 21):
Quite off topic, but does anybody know the status of Sheffield airport? I've heard its a heli-port now.

Have a look here :-

http://www.sheffieldcityairport.com/

It's mainly a general aviation airfield now, a very well equipped one too !!

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richm
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 11:17 pm

This is interesting. I bet those people in the canoe were like "WOW, IT'S DA A380!" Big grin

Technically and legally speaking, would it be possible for the A319 to fly into LCY? I don't know whether or not it is certified.
 
grimey
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 11:41 pm

Ok I might be a little bit behind on my facts, but it might be interesting to have a look at the following links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_City_Airport

http://www.londoncityairport.com/index.php?page=ntkSystem

I dont think I have ever heard a A318 take off or land so I wouldn't know how silent it is.

Grimey
 
FRALIM
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 11:45 pm

Dont know if May i certification month for LCY but it was just about one year ago that the E170 came to LCY for trials. Unfortunately so far no airline has decided to use it for flights to LCY.


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Does somebody know whether the A318 will stay for a few days or has it already left? Id like to see it here but wont be at the airport before tuesday. Last year the E170 stayed for a few days.

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saab2000
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 22):
Crossair ordered EMB-170?!?!?! WHAT?!

Was the E-170 even being planned and developed when Crossair became SWISS?

Yes. Crossair was going to be the launch customer (or one of them at least) when this aircraft was first proposed.

With all the stuff that happened with Crossair after the collapse of Swissair and the transformation of Crossair into SWISS International Air Lines Ltd. the airline was not solvent enough to actually follow through on the purchase of this plane. I don't know if the orders have subsequently been cancelled, but I assume so.

The EMB-170 and 190 would make a great A/C for the old Crossair, but it is no more.

BTW, Crossair was not just a 'regional' arm of Swissair. They were obviously joined at the hip, but also had much of its own network and operated a lot of MD-80s, hardly 'regional' aircraft.
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Sun May 14, 2006 11:56 pm




Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 38):
MD-80s, hardly 'regional' aircraft.

Here in the States, it won't be long before airlines start trying to pass widebodies off as "regional" jets...  sarcastic 

I'm joking, of course, but over here (as I'm sure you know), that term has completely and totally lost any shred of it's original meaning.




2H4


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saab2000
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Mon May 15, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 39):
Here in the States, it won't be long before airlines start trying to pass widebodies off as "regional" jets...   

I'm joking, of course, but over here (as I'm sure you know), that term has completely and totally lost any shred of it's original meaning.

Ain't that the truth!!!

I have just read something in a Swiss newspaper which referred to the pilots of the former Crossair who are still with SWISS as "Regionalpiloten" (Regional Pilots). Someone is doing a good job feeding them the line of BS that somehow the job is different between a "regional pilot" and a "mainline" pilot.

But you sure are correct that the lines have been blurred to the point of being meaningless. What's "regional" about IAD-ATL? IAD-MSP? PHL-MCI? PHL-STL? CLT-MSP?

It is a bad term which has simply been used to lower payscales and to feed the egos of some of the bad apples who have been in the industry for a while.
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2H4
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Mon May 15, 2006 12:44 am




Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 40):
It is a bad term which has simply been used to lower payscales and to feed the egos of some of the bad apples who have been in the industry for a while.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 



Exactly. I fail to see how one who works with NOTAMs involving severe icing in Canada one day, and volcanic ash in Mexico the next can possibly be considered a "regional" pilot.

If anything, I would argue that the expectations of these pilots to deal with stronger, heavily contrasting, and more localized weather patterns day in and day out should earn them more pay and benefits than those who drive ocean liners across the pond twice a week.

Clearly, I wouldn't fit in as airline management...




2H4


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saab2000
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Mon May 15, 2006 1:37 am

A friend of mine is a 777 capt. at United. I fly CRJs on the east coast. He is the first one to admit that my job is much harder than his. He flies to China about 3 times per month.

Anyway,.....

Back to the topic at hand! When I used to fly LCY it was on the Saab. Biggest thing I ever saw there was an Avro/BAe-146. It would be pretty interesting to see the Airbus get in there.
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smokeyrosco
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Mon May 15, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 15):
it seems that AF is looking more toward Brazil ... rather than Toulouse...

Maybe But from my (and i must stress it's my own) gut feeling is that CityJet would love to get there hands on Airbus Aircraft and not only intigrate more with AF but also be the premier airline they are trying to be, As much as i love the 146 it does not do them credit when EI are flying a decent frequency between DUB and CDG in lovely young 320's even if you have to pay for your food and drink. Bussiness class though is always an advantage on certain routes.

Quoting Grimey (Reply 36):
I dont think I have ever heard a A318 take off

Either way. an old ATR is louder then any 318-321 i've ever heard taken off, although i've never heard an airbus aircraft take off on such a small runway.
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avroarrow
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RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Mon May 15, 2006 4:14 am

I wonder if flex power is still available for takeoff from LCY or if they have to use full TOGA with a more rapid than normal pullback to climb power for noise? Obviously this all depends on temp, load and wind, but based on a "standard" day with no wind and a full load, I wonder what power setting would be used?
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Tue May 16, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 43):
Either way. an old ATR is louder then any 318-321 i've ever heard taken off, although i've never heard an airbus aircraft take off on such a small runway.

Upclose its probably louder but it might a smaller noise footprint overall.
 
grimey
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:48 am

RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Wed May 17, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 43):
Maybe But from my (and i must stress it's my own) gut feeling is that CityJet would love to get there hands on Airbus Aircraft

Word on the street is that Cityjet are building a new aircraft hanger in DUB, this hanger is designed for one Bae146 at a time so I don't think Cityjet will be looking for and A318 soon. Maybe in a few years but for the meantime those 146's are great to fly on.

Grimey
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5257
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Largest Ever Aircraft At London City?

Wed May 17, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting FRALIM (Reply 37):
Dont know if May i certification month for LCY but it was just about one year ago that the E170 came to LCY for trials. Unfortunately so far no airline has decided to use it for flights to LCY.

It was covered in this news item.....
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...braer+targets+City+with+E-170.html

It would seem that the proposed 500nm (925km) range at full payload without the ventral speedbrake was not attractive (limiting) to many operators.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield