797
Topic Author
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:51 am

Alitalia's Situation?

Mon May 15, 2006 11:08 am

Hey guys,

It's been a while since the last post regarding Alitalia's situation came by. Honestly, I've been worried.

I know that AZ has been facing several problems for the last few years, even though they bought all those 777s. I also happen to have some evidence regarding their services, since my uncle flew MXP-CCS a month ago and he said it was one of the worst flights he's ever taken (service & equipment-wise).

It seems that their 767 fleet is worn, crew is unfriendly and old, and they are not what they used to be once upon a time.

So, how are they doing right now? Are there any potential orders coming up?(perhaps 787s or more 777s?), any developments or advances?

Ok guys, any comments are more than welcome!

Thanks in advance!

Enrique.
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
smokeyrosco
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:21 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Mon May 15, 2006 11:36 am

My opinion, and i stress that it's MY opinion.

Alitalia is doomed, there has been no real sweeping changes in the airline at all which is desperately needed, and i think (again i stress it's I) the airline is rife with corruption in the senior ranks. No evidence, nothing to support my opinion. But if alitalia are around in 5 years time i'll eat my own words and admit i'm wrong.
John Hancock
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Mon May 15, 2006 1:52 pm

The company continues to lose huge amounts of money from operations.

Their unions continue to stage work stoppages every few months.

They just bought the operating certificate of a non-operating (??) carrier to gain access to more domestic routes via Linate.

As long as the Italian government finds ways of funneling cash to the operation, they will continue to stumble along.

Once the Eu finally stops the government help, they'll be out of business in no time....but who knows how long that will take.

Alitalia sucks. They are an unreliable alliance partner for Skyteam. I can't believe they are part of our global strategy.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1192
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Mon May 15, 2006 2:09 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):

As long as the Italian government finds ways of funneling cash to the operation, they will continue to stumble along.

And they do! I cannot see any difference between Alitalia and Olympic, yet the Greek government is being sued by the EU over "illegal" aid given to their "national" carrier, and demanding the carrier repay almost $600M, which, if I'm not mistaken, is defunct!

Now ENAC (Italian Aviation Authority) has slapped an PSO on routes between mainland Italy and Sardinia, which Ryanair & Easyjet already serve, forcing them out of the market to AZ's benefit.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 1):

and i think (again i stress it's I) the airline is rife with corruption in the senior ranks

Not to mention the Italian authorities!
 
JoeCattoli
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Mon May 15, 2006 9:50 pm

Agreed... Nothing has changed...
Hopefully the new government will do something important... But I doubt it.... very much doubt it... I think they either will change something at Alitalia or stop funding and letting AZ die... I don't think all will remain as it is now... But it's just me, I could very well be wrong.
All the politics here say "We do We do..." But nobody does anything in the right direction... We need a radical change...

Ciao  banghead 
Joe
 
Cure
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:47 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Mon May 15, 2006 10:54 pm

This link shows the situation of AZ as of march 31st, 2006.

Please care to consider this following part, which was what the EU asked to Alitalia before ALLOWING the cash injection of the last fall:

"...data regarding current portions of amounts falling due within twelve months are no longer classified under medium/long term indebtedness, but now form part of data relating to short-term financial debt..."

http://corporate.alitalia.com/en/Ima...r_28_04_2006_(2)_en_tcm7-14276.pdf

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 3):
Now ENAC (Italian Aviation Authority) has slapped an PSO on routes between mainland Italy and Sardinia, which Ryanair & Easyjet already serve, forcing them out of the market to AZ's benefit.

Everyone having a clue on the issue would disagree: it was done to Sardinians' benefit and ENAC just applied the italian legislation on the matter. Check the thread here on A.net if you're interested in knowing better...

Regards,

V
 
Cure
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:47 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Mon May 15, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting 797 (Thread starter):
Are there any potential orders coming up?

Following the relaunch plan, not before the end of this year/next year, and regarding what type, I think some more 777-200ERs (five if you ask) and 10-15 B787s.
What do you guys think about it?

Regards,

V
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Mon May 15, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Cure (Reply 6):
Following the relaunch plan, not before the end of this year/next year, and regarding what type, I think some more 777-200ERs (five if you ask) and 10-15 B787s.
What do you guys think about it?

I'm gonna say total 777 fleet will end up at around 14-15 (so 4/5 incremental orders).

787s will be ordered in the 15-20 range.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
797
Topic Author
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 4:02 am

Ok guys, I was expecting some better news  Sad

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
Alitalia sucks. They are an unreliable alliance partner for Skyteam

Have you though about it this way: if they are still in the alliance, some logic reason must be hanging there...

Anyways, if Alitalia recovers, what would be the next move. What are they to recover from? Bankruptcy? Corruption?

And what happens if AZ goes bankrupt and goes out of service? Something like the Swissair situation could come up?

I'm very worried about this, AZ is my favourite airline. I don't know if its just luck, but all the times I've flown with them, has been a superb experience.

I really hope to see a solution to their problems and a modification on their management, they're Italy's flag carrier and it has been a symbol all over the world for several years.

Best for AZ

Enrique
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
RICARIZA
Posts: 2029
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:56 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 4):
Agreed... Nothing has changed...

That is very sad to hear, I really love AZ

Quoting 797 (Reply 8):
AZ is my favourite airline. I don't know if its just luck, but all the times I've flown with them, has been a superb experience

DITTO! I flew from MILANO to ROMA and to NAPOLI and I loved it..

So, what would be AZ options then? What would you do if you have the power to do something?
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
scotron11
Posts: 1192
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 3:16 pm

Quoting Cure (Reply 5):

Everyone having a clue on the issue would disagree: it was done to Sardinians' benefit and ENAC just applied the italian legislation on the matter

By "everyone having a clue" you mean folk that agree with you? And I beg to differ on who's benefit it was applied. Just because there is legislation doesn't mean it's a good thing. Air transportation bring a lot of benefits, ie: jobs. Just because they're LCC's shouldn't preclude them from any market in the EU.

And in the courts decision, what is so special about Alitalia?

Let's see what happens with Ryanair's appeal to the EU. I hope they strike it down pronto!
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 3:28 pm

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 4):
Hopefully the new government will do something important...

New government ?? Who Prodi ?? The same goons where in power before Berlusconi ? And ? Did they do something then ? No !! So, expect nothing !!
 
Pulkovokiwi
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:17 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 4:39 pm

Nothing will happen-after all this is Italy where the false promise originated. I flew MXP-NRT on 15th April this year and the service was terrible. I am suprised Skyteam puts up with this blot on their alliance and even more suprised that JAL code shares on the route. The only consolation was the plane was clean and tidy and I arrived in one piece at Narita.
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
Ikarus2006
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:10 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 5:46 pm

Just a few considerations about the sad AZ story.

1. AZ operates in an open market (at least at European level, I would not put my hand on the fire about the Italian one). If because of a coincidence of many factors (debts, competition with low-cost carriers) it does not make it to keep the head above the water, then I can imagine it could disappear within the next 5 years.

2. I personally know a few people who own Alitalia shares and feel sorry for them since they did not sell early enough to limit the damage. Selling now means a loss anyway so they wait and hope something will get better - wishful thinking?

3. If I were one of the above, I would really like to know where AZ plans to find the money to add 777s and 787s to their fleet if they barely manage to keep their employees satisfied and their debts under control.

4. IMO, the situation comes from a mix of low efficiency, short sighted planning, relying on government support a bit too frequently. I will not buy it that is the competition with low-cost carriers that ruined AZ - other European airlines survived the "attack" and are doing very well so the core of the problem is probably somewhere else.

5. I fly to Italy frequently and after trying several airlines (including KLM > expensive, Air France > 70% of the time delays in CDG) I ended up using Ryanair with some flights on Virgin Express. Why would I pay much more to fly AZ and face a service level that recalls sometimes a low-cost carriers?

6. A question for everyone - Italy is a land that is very strong in tourism and still they did not properly manage to take advantage of this situation - what is it, according to you experts, that they are doing so wrong not being able to tap from this huge potential market of tourists flying there from all over the world?


Still, I hope something will happen down there and that the Italian genius will find a solution somehow possibly soon...
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting Ikarus2006 (Reply 13):
6. A question for everyone - Italy is a land that is very strong in tourism and still they did not properly manage to take advantage of this situation - what is it, according to you experts, that they are doing so wrong not being able to tap from this huge potential market of tourists flying there from all over the world?

In most cases Italy does a better job than other countries when it comes to giving access to tourist to their territory. Just look at the vast ferry and hydrofoil operations through out Italy. You can reach any place no matter how remote. Look at Venice and its transportation system. If Venice was in America you'd be walking. Alitalia on the other hand is in poor shape. It has a lot to do with politics (wrong politics), a socialist country where the workforce has a lot to say. Alitalia should have been privatized in 1987. But Craxi killed the plan. From then on it was just a ride downhill. Frankly Italy should invest its money into a new clean sheet airline and simply doom Alitalia.

The 777 are leased. Alitalia buys them and then sells them to an Italian leasing company. They don't own them. The 777 replaced the 747 and the MD11.
 
BAtriple7
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting 797 (Thread starter):
It seems that their 767 fleet is worn, crew is unfriendly and old

Evidence for this???

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 14):
In most cases Italy does a better job than other countries when it comes to giving access to tourist to their territory. Just look at the vast ferry and hydrofoil operations through out Italy. You can reach any place no matter how remote.

 checkmark 
 
Ikarus2006
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:10 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 8:59 pm

ComeAndGo,

Thanks first of all for the note. My meaning was not to criticize the transportation system in Italy altogether and not even the services that they provide to tourists.

I was more pointing at the fact that Alitalia is not taking enough advantage from this potential market where many other carriers are already busy. I personally know several people all over the world that whenever they need to fly to Italy they choose another carrier then Alitalia - this is what worries me and what I would like to see changing thanks to a renovated AZ stricture or to a totally new airline in place of it.

What do you think about this?
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 9:08 pm

I think that it may be time to let the Alitalia name die, which is very unfortunate. I think the best bet for an Italian flag carrier is a new one owned by Air France/KLM. Declare Alitalia bankrupt, have Air France/KLM set up a new airline with its assets and leased planes- focus on customer service, a Low-cost domestic and European model (with a business class), long-range focusing on MXP with certain markets also receiving service to FCO. The challenge for any new airline there will be the unions. Air France/KLM seems to have found out how to be profitable in an environment where unions are very strong and in spite of the occasional strike. Such knowledge would seem to be very useful in Italy.
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 10):
By "everyone having a clue" you mean folk that agree with you? And I beg to differ on who's benefit it was applied. Just because there is legislation doesn't mean it's a good thing. Air transportation bring a lot of benefits, ie: jobs. Just because they're LCC's shouldn't preclude them from any market in the EU

There is no need to have a nickel and dime airline like RyanAir in the Sardinia market. Sardinians, are justly tired of the absurd amount of thrifty tourists trying to make Sardinia their vacation destination. Sardinia, has survived for years on the wealthy travel market. There is no need for the "Irish Plague" to have service to Sardinia.

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 12):
I am suprised Skyteam puts up with this blot on their alliance and even more suprised that JAL code shares on the route

"The Route" has been code-shared for over 15 odd years. JAL isnt putting its name behind something that does not have merit. In addition Alitalia also code-shares with China Airlines to the Asian market.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 1):
Alitalia is doomed,

The same has been said about Aer Lingus, US Airways, Delta Airlines, Northwest Airlines, British Midland, Philippines Airlines, China Airlines, Olympic, JAL, Varig, and SAS for a number of years... And where are they now?... The skies above!

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 1):
But if alitalia are around in 5 years time i'll eat my own words and admit i'm wrong

Prepare your dining utensils..

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 14):
It has a lot to do with politics (wrong politics), a socialist country where the workforce has a lot to say.

The problem with Socialism is?
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
art
Posts: 2697
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Tue May 16, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 18):
There is no need to have a nickel and dime airline like RyanAir in the Sardinia market. Sardinians, are justly tired of the absurd amount of thrifty tourists trying to make Sardinia their vacation destination. Sardinia, has survived for years on the wealthy travel market. There is no need for the "Irish Plague" to have service to Sardinia.

I think you make a good point about the kind of tourist one wants to attract. I am not sure that providing cheap flights to Sardinia attracts the "wrong" sort of tourist, though.

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 17):
I think the best bet for an Italian flag carrier is a new one owned by Air France/KLM. Declare Alitalia bankrupt, have Air France/KLM set up a new airline with its assets and leased planes

Any reason for Air France/KLM in particular to do it?
 
JoeCattoli
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 9):
So, what would be AZ options then? What would you do if you have the power to do something?

Change management with men with a real power and not controlled by someone... Someone that has the skills and interests to do something for this legacy.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 11):
New government ?? Who Prodi ?? The same goons where in power before Berlusconi ?

If you read all of my post you'll see:

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 4):
Hopefully the new government will do something important... But I doubt it.... very much doubt it...

No worries I'm not living in dreams... But I'll still keep a bit of irrational hope if you don't mind.

Quoting Ikarus2006 (Reply 13):
6. A question for everyone - Italy is a land that is very strong in tourism and still they did not properly manage to take advantage of this situation - what is it, according to you experts, that they are doing so wrong not being able to tap from this huge potential market of tourists flying there from all over the world?

Bad management and politics.. Alitalia still suffers even of the Double-hub system that a small long-haul line can't support. They have to focus either on MXP or FCO.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 14):
a socialist country where the workforce has a lot to say.

That's the problem all the politics keeps as excuse of why everything is bad, A wise management can do a lot of good moves even without going against unions.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 18):
There is no need to have a nickel and dime airline like RyanAir in the Sardinia market. Sardinians, are justly tired of the absurd amount of thrifty tourists trying to make Sardinia their vacation destination.

It's a pity that all the Sardinians I've heard says the opposite...

Ciao  bored 
Joe
 
797
Topic Author
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Ikarus2006 (Reply 13):
they barely manage to keep their employees satisfied and their debts under control.

So this means that they are not 'dead' yet, right? If they still can manage their airplanes and have their debts under control, then it means that they might have an advance if some serious people sit behind the desks and plans something out?

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 14):
Frankly Italy should invest its money into a new clean sheet airline and simply doom Alitalia.

I do not agree with that. I want to see Alitalia flying. If many airlines have been saved, why not AZ?

Quoting BAtriple7 (Reply 15):
Quoting 797 (Thread starter):
It seems that their 767 fleet is worn, crew is unfriendly and old

Evidence for this???

Are you asking it ironically or seriously?
If the second option is the one, well, I flew one of their 767s one year ago and it was in a pretty bad shape. Moreover, my uncle is a frequent flier between CCS and MXP/FCO and usually flies them. Last time, he was totally disgusted...

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 17):
I think that it may be time to let the Alitalia name die, which is very unfortunate.

I don't think that's a good option, sorry.

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 17):
Declare Alitalia bankrupt, have Air France/KLM set up a new airline with its assets and leased planes- focus on customer service, a Low-cost domestic and European model (with a business class), long-range focusing on MXP with certain markets also receiving service to FCO.

How would this work? Would they keep the Alitalia name but with a different administration? Same airplanes and livery like KLM did? Or is something like the Swissair situation going to happen???

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 18):
Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 1):
But if alitalia are around in 5 years time i'll eat my own words and admit i'm wrong

Prepare your dining utensils..

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 18):
Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 14):
It has a lot to do with politics (wrong politics), a socialist country where the workforce has a lot to say.

The problem with Socialism is?

I don't think that's the problem... Italy is the 5th or 6th most powerfull countries in the world, if that was the case, then it wouldn't be like that...

Quoting Art (Reply 19):
Any reason for Air France/KLM in particular to do it?

Perhaps the Skyteam alliance and that AF owns some AZ shares...

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 20):
Alitalia still suffers even of the Double-hub system that a small long-haul line can't support. They have to focus either on MXP or FCO.

Finally! I've always said that! AZ should focus either on FCO or MXP. I don't know which one, as I know FCO brings millions of tourists per year (more than MXP).

Either way, if AZ goes out, that space will have to be filled with a whole new airline ready to represent Italy as AZ has been doing for several years. I wish them the best and hope to see an improvement and some new orders...

Cheers
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Ikarus2006 (Reply 16):
I was more pointing at the fact that Alitalia is not taking enough advantage from this potential market where many other carriers are already busy. I personally know several people all over the world that whenever they need to fly to Italy they choose another carrier then Alitalia - this is what worries me and what I would like to see changing thanks to a renovated AZ stricture or to a totally new airline in place of it.

What do you think about this?

I'm one of those who refuses to fly with Alitalia to Italy. Reason being is because as long as the airline is controlled by the government you have irrational service. In the 90's the the service from Milan to Los Angeles was changed to Venice to Milan to Los Angeles. The idea was to connect the Venice Film Festival with the Oscars. What does that have to do with flying? The result was a catastrophe. In Venice you have fog. So the flight had huge delays every other day. Sometimes 9 hours ! I remember how my mom had to fly to Milan, we brought her to the airport and at check-in they told her that the flight would be one hour delayed. So we waited one hour and they told her again that the flight would be delayed by yet another hour. By this time we went outside and look at the gate lineup. There was no Alitalia plane anywhere. So we went back to the check-in counter and asked to speak to a supervisor. The supervisor told us that the plane was currently overflying Island !! That's 8 hours from Los Angeles. Why would Alitalia tell you that the flight is delayed by one hour and then one hour later tell you the same thing again? 8 hours is a long time. You can go back home and come back later. You can go back to work. You can go into the city and do some sightseeing. You can go to the beach. No, Alitalia's way is to tell you that the flight is delayed by one hour. So you end up waiting at the airport for 8 hours to then embark on a 13 hour flight to Milan. Who is ever going to travel with Alitalia again ? These huge delays happened to my mother twice, to my father once and friends of mine had it on the way to Italy and also on the way back.

As long as Alitalia is run by the government it's nothing but trouble. I got my mille miglia miles summer sales brochure at the end of September. They mailed it at the beginning of July via surface mail !!! Takes two months and goes via ship across the Atlantic. I have no words. Alitalia is an airline. Ever heard of Air Mail ? Obviously not. The politicians constantly interfere with the Airline. They come up with laws that restrict Alitalia's operations. Initially Alitalia could fly intercontinental flights only from Rome. There was some sort of percentage rule where Rome had to handle 80% of the intercontinental flights. Why? Because Rome is at the center of the Universe. So now the flights shifted to Milan. But what's deal with restricting the airline to fly from where it wants to fly? If there's a market to fly from Turin to Detroit then Alitalia should have the freedom to choose to fly such a route without interference from the Italian government. What's dooming Alitalia is not the competition but the government that oversees it.

Alitalia needs to be privatized with zero input from the government. The politicians have to understand that flying is no luxury but a business like any other. It's probably best to split the company into two airlines, one that operates from Rome and one that operates from Milan.
 
BAtriple7
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 22):
There was some sort of percentage rule where Rome had to handle 80% of the intercontinental flights. Why? Because Rome is at the center of the Universe

Any Italian would tell you it's because it's the Politicos who are at the centre of the Universe in Italy...Alitalia's origins lie in fascist Italy, see any parallels???
 
ba757
Posts: 2707
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting 797 (Reply 21):
Finally! I've always said that! AZ should focus either on FCO or MXP. I don't know which one, as I know FCO brings millions of tourists per year (more than MXP).

The serious money is at MXP though.

If they had to choose a main hub, with the political interference already grave in this airline, it would probably be FCO with it been the capital, no matter if it is the wrong choice.

Adam
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting JoeCattoli (Reply 20):
That's the problem all the politics keeps as excuse of why everything is bad, A wise management can do a lot of good moves even without going against unions.

Alitalia has 19 workers turing an Aircraft in 1 hour.

Southwest has 5 workers do the same in 20 minutes.

It's Unions and Politics.
 
ba757
Posts: 2707
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 22):
currently overflying Island !!

Iceland or Ireland?

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 22):
They mailed it at the beginning of July via surface mail !!! Takes two months and goes via ship across the Atlantic. I have no words. Alitalia is an airline. Ever heard of Air Mail ? Obviously not.

Thats simply fantastic! Made me laugh.

Adam
 
pavlin
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:34 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 18):
There is no need for the "Irish Plague" to have service to Sardinia.

What a comment. Ryanair doesn't serve food and drinks, after all it is normally only a two hour flight. Air travel is not about luxury. It is about speed and distance
 
klmflyer
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 5:34 am

This is a time-consuming topic as we can design all kinds of scenarios for AZ but until it's going to be run by unprofessional managers, by politics and by unions, the discussion on the future of AZ is a total waste of time!
Something is talking in a managerial way, and something else is talking as a politician.
A manager I would downsize the airline to a LCC model to fly within Europe (with a new brand, sort of Alitalia Express), and upgrade few intercontinental route (with another brand, may the very same Alitalia) to compete with other airlines in terms of premium service on board, customer service, frequency of flights, new well trained F/A who knows how to deal with a customer (and not the sort of unfriendly, arrogant and snooty stewards and hostesses that you may run the risk of meeting when flying with AZ today!!!) .
Concentrate on MXP as major hub (for business routes) and leave few routes to/from FCO (for the leisure/tourist market).
No one will consider AZ as an airline for flying from point A in a foreign country to point B in another foreign country and transiting via MXP, as AZ is not KLM or Swiss and will never be perceived as a major carrier.
But before starting a business plan, since you are dealing in Italy, with Italians and with the Italian mentality and way of thinking (!!!), we should deal with unions (skip them) and privatize the new airline leaving no space to government interests.
Otherwise, we'll still see lots of staff compared to other more functional airlines, lots of strikes, lots of incompetent, unprofessional managers trying to run something they do not even know where to start from.
It's a lost battle: you should change the Italian way of doing business and that's hard, very hard!!!
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting 797 (Reply 21):
Finally! I've always said that! AZ should focus either on FCO or MXP.

MXP is where the money is (year-round)

FCO is where the money is (seasonal)

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 27):
Air travel is not about luxury. It is about speed and distance

To some it is... For example premium cabins on Singapore, Qantas, British, Etihad, Emirates, Air France, and ANA.

ps...

As we speak RAI is running the Ballaro program which is talking at great lengths about how the people in Sardinia are getting fed up with all of the tourists, and the immense flocks of "thrifty" people that have been to the island lately. From experience, myself, I have spent many summer weekends at Porto Cervo, the idea that Sardinia needs more flights is utterly annoying, and just goes to show the the idea of "E.U." is disrupting so many things.

[Edited 2006-05-16 23:08:39]
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
Yak97
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 7:23 am

What else happens in Sardinia if you take away the tourists??
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting Yak97 (Reply 30):
What else happens in Sardinia if you take away the tourists??

Wealthy Italians and Europeans enjoy their multi million Euro second homes..  Smile
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
art
Posts: 2697
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting 797 (Reply 21):
If many airlines have been saved, why not AZ?

Culture. You have to change the culture of the whole company. The easiest way is to change all the people in the company. The easiest way to do that is to close the company down and start again. KLMflyer has the idea:

Quoting KLMflyer (Reply 28):
It's a lost battle: you should change the Italian way of doing business and that's hard, very hard!!!
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Yak97 (Reply 30):
What else happens in Sardinia if you take away the tourists??

They have this really good cheese with maggots in it. In italy it's illegal to eat maggots, so the authorities banned the cheese but Sardinians eat it anyway.
 
smokeyrosco
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:21 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 18):
"Irish Plague"

I take major offence to this, and as a property owner in Sardinia I can tell you that most if not all the locals I have met while holidaying out there have never ever been in any way hostile to me. And not one person has ever insulted me on this wonderful Island as you have in the above statement.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 18):
been said about

The same was also said about Ryanair, and others you haven't mentioned that are not around anymore. Quite a few on that list are not expected to weather this storm we are having and particularly not with oil prices so high. I do not completely agree with some of them but with alitalia I do know this airline will not be around in it's present form for many more years. This is really unfortunate as I actually like the Airline despite them having a tech problem today in DUB (again an aircraft standard in DUB for probably the 4th time since the start of the year).

I believe that Alitalia will have a rebirth much like Sabina and more recently Olympic. We'll just have to see if this 'new' airline will work.
John Hancock
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 34):
I take major offence to this

Apologies, if it was taken as a racial comment. It is very common among the top European airlines to refer to RyanAir as the "Irish Plague". It is not racial, it is indicatory as to where RyanAir is headquartered and the effects it is having on other airlines.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 34):
I believe that Alitalia will have a rebirth much like Sabina and more recently Olympic.

SN Brussels/Sabena, has just been infied with the lifeblood of Virgin. The company when combined, and when the new routes are in place will be going head to head with Air France/KLM to the Benelux region. Stations such as Delhi, Bombay, New York, Los Angeles, Sao Paulo, and Tokyo are all in the sights of the newly combined airline. Not right now, but down the road.

Alitalia, will be dropping a lot of equipment on the intra-European markets. They are going to be downsizing a lot of MD-80 routes to A319 and ERJ service. Tis is being done in many markets over the next 2-3 years. In long-term 5-10 years the fleet will become ERJ, A319, A320, A321, 763, 772. To the dreams of many dont look for the A380, 744, 773, or A345/6 to play a role in the future of Alitalia. Look for a number of North/South American stations to be reopened and assisted by the flow of code-share traffic. Namely Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Rio de Janeiro. Los Angeles will be operated non stop in Spring/Summer with the 763. In Winter the flight will operate a triangle as MXP-SFO-LAX-MXP with the 772. San Francisco would be nonstop in Spring/Summer with the 763


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Additionaly there is very strong talk that Alitalia will resume service to Nairobi via Khartoum with the A321 from either Rome or Milan. Other notable additions may very well include Johannesburg with the 763, Karachi-Calcutta with the A321 or 763, and Kuwait-Madras with the A321 or 763. In Asia there is a strong chance that we will see a resumption of Milan-Hong Kong with the 772, this time with a tag to Manila(an ex AZ station).

Overall the "new plan" for Alitalia will be calling for a overhaul of equipment and routes. The New York area routes are going to be combined to JFK and Continental will handle the EWR flights, and increase seasonal additions as needed. I.E. second daily Milan and Rome when demand is seen fit. The 763's freed from the Newark services will be used in turn to start service to Johannesburg and additional flights to the Middle East as needed. Meridiana, may very well be merging with Alitalia, there is a strong sense that Meridiana management is get very chummy with the Alitalia management. This will solidy Alitalia's dominance in the domestic market.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
klmflyer
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 10:59 am

while AZ wastes its time in dreaming of opening new routes like Khartoum, Nairobi, Hong Kong, LAx, SFO, etc., a small carrier like Eurofly starts on 29MAY a business-class only non-stop flight between MXP and JFK (they wanted to operate from the city airport in LIN but the US DOT did not allow the flight due to lack of reciprocity for the use of LIN airport for US carrier and lack of code-shares with US airlines as well!!!) by flying an A319 with 48 C-class seats on what it is called MiMA service (Milan-Manhattan).
Eurofly is positioning itself in a secondary market by connecting JFK with daily flights operated by A330 to NAP/BLQ/PMO and FCO.
If only AZ could learn from competition rather than wasting time, energy, money on useless operations and if it only could learn the true value of customer service!!!
 
SapphireLHR
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:09 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Wed May 17, 2006 2:37 pm

Acronyms are great.....

Always, Late, In, Take off, Always, Late, In, .Arriving......


Sorry couldn't resist that one...have a good day.
 
klmcedric
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:19 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Thu May 18, 2006 12:03 am

Sabena and Olympic where/are other airlines within the EU that where/are
known to have bad management and reliable on government cash injections
for their survival! I fail to even remotely understand the difference between these two and AZ, and why the EU keeps allowing this airline to survive!
AZ has been given a truckload of breaks to try and put it's act together,
I say it's now time for a SN-SNBA, SR-LX type of thing!
Let the airline go bankrupt and starting a new one out of the ashes has
proven to be succesfull for both SNBA and LX!
 
797
Topic Author
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Thu May 18, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 22):
What's dooming Alitalia is not the competition but the government that oversees it.

Well said. And I believe Italy's government interests are not over AZ's matters, and that's what sinks AZ every day...

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 22):
It's probably best to split the company into two airlines, one that operates from Rome and one that operates from Milan.

Isn't that too complicated? How would it work? Alitalia Business (MXP, with luxury aircraft) and Alitalia Tourist (FCO, with crappier (current) aircraft) xD?

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 35):
In long-term 5-10 years the fleet will become ERJ, A319, A320, A321, 763, 772.

That's what I've said in the past. The Mad Dogs are expensive, and Alitalia is the biggest operator within Europe of this aircraft. If they get rid of them, and perhaps change them into more RJs and A319s/A318s savings can come by...

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 35):
Los Angeles will be operated non stop in Spring/Summer with the 763. In Winter the flight will operate a triangle as MXP-SFO-LAX-MXP with the 772. San Francisco would be nonstop in Spring/Summer with the 763

Is that for sure? I'd love to see AZ back at LAX and SFO...
But isn't awkward to fly LAX-SFO? Time-consuming, perhaps?

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 35):
Meridiana, may very well be merging with Alitalia,

I'm not so sure of that. I know Meridiana is a low fare airline, which isn't doing bad at all. They offer a great service with good pricing between cities that AZ fly. They are a potential competitor...

Quoting KLMflyer (Reply 36):
Eurofly

This is something to take care off and be carefull with. Eurofly is growing steady and they offer excellent services. They can go high.

How would be the transition after the private sector buys AZ? Would it take long? How much money would it cost?

Cheers
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Thu May 18, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 35):
Look for a number of North/South American stations to be reopened and assisted by the flow of code-share traffic. Namely Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Rio de Janeiro. Los Angeles will be operated non stop in Spring/Summer with the 763. In Winter the flight will operate a triangle as MXP-SFO-LAX-MXP with the 772. San Francisco would be nonstop in Spring/Summer with the 763

Does Alitalia has plans to fly again to Rio de Janeiro (non-stop or even as a tag on the GRU-MXP flight) ?

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Cure
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:47 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Thu May 18, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 10):
By "everyone having a clue" you mean folk that agree with you? And I beg to differ on who's benefit it was applied. Just because there is legislation doesn't mean it's a good thing

In replay 5 I added "check the thread here on A.net" (the one about ENAC's decision) not to be patronizing, but just to spare you the time to come out with this sentence. However I'll explain again, although is very easy:
This kind of (VERY GOOD) legislation is there to guarantee to inhabitants of Sardegna the SAME level of service offered to who's living on the mainland, and this is how/why: 1): companies/airlines run flights just if they make a profit out of them, do you agree? Well, 2): after 6, maybe 12 months of competing with FR/U2, which would probably mean flying almost empty from/to Sardinia (or however not full enough), Alitalia would probably drop the route, while FR/U2 would eventually make money allowing tourists like you to come down for a few pounds and enjoy the sun of Sardegna. Very well. And beyond this? 3): if you have to travel for business out of Sardegna because of your job being based somewhere else, if you need connections, to travel to America...WTF would you do? Rely on the "very good" connex of Ryanair, for example in Frankfurt/Hahn or Dublin/Collinstown? Enjoy the advantages of a global alliance that Ryanair is putting up for you at the moment? Or would you sleep on an airport's floor lost in the middle of nowhere?
C'mon, it's easy!! IT WON'T BE THE SAME KIND OF SERVICE guaranteed by Alitalia, although you're perfectly entitled to be very acid about it.
Am I wrong?

So...chill out and have a drink. It's true, AZ was poorly managed and there is corruption down here, but we're not just a bunch of gangsters or shepherds.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1192
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Thu May 18, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting Cure (Reply 41):

In replay 5 I added "check the thread here on A.net"

Which I did. But I still don't see any reason to stop Ryanair/Easyjet from offering service. Afterall, a PSO is to guarantee access to air service, not to guarantee a monopoly to certain airlines.

As to being acid, well I have had an upset stomach lately.

Cheers!
 
art
Posts: 2697
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Thu May 18, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Cure (Reply 41):
It's true, AZ was poorly managed and there is corruption down here

Is it well managed now? If so, great turnaround.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 25):
Alitalia has 19 workers turing an Aircraft in 1 hour.

Southwest has 5 workers do the same in 20 minutes.

Er... is it good management running Alitalia in such a way that it takes 19 man hours to do what can be done in 1.66 man hours by Southwest?

[Edited 2006-05-18 01:42:11]
 
Lospaziale
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:37 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Thu May 18, 2006 7:40 pm

One simple question:
Can the 763 go no-stop from MXP to LA, which could be a 12:30 hours flight??
I don't really think so...Especially westbound
lo spaziale
 
Cure
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:47 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Thu May 18, 2006 8:32 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 43):
Is it well managed now? If so, great turnaround.

http://corporate.alitalia.com/en/Ima...-%20May%2015%202006_tcm7-14518.pdf

Let's see how it goes...
BTW 5.500 employees over 24.000 have been fired in the last four years (3.000 last autumn), which is not an easy walk downhill here in Italy inside a company owned by the State until a few years ago. It would really be a pitty not to take advantage of the great successes obtained in the closest past and I still hope for the best.
Something that will be eventually visible from the "outside" (in case of an effective improvement) will be an order for some 20 long haul planes within 2007 (B777 and 787), plus another 20-25 short-medium haul aircrafts (I guess A320s).
What they need from my point of view is:
1): F class on intercontinental
2): "downgrading" (prices, costs, service, to a LCC's model) the offer of Y within Europe, BUT NOT within Italy
3): Keep a good, full frills/full fare Business Class within Europe
4): focus STRONGLY on customer care
5): add some long haul destination (CAN-SYD or KUL-SYD, KHI, DEL, ICN, LAX)
6): more cargo to the Far East (cargo is doing very well now!)

Regards,

V
 
797
Topic Author
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Thu May 18, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Cure (Reply 45):
order for some 20 long haul planes within 2007 (B777 and 787), plus another 20-25 short-medium haul aircrafts (I guess A320s).

Yeah, I totally second that. They have the money, they can do it. But if they don't focus on other things like the one you listed, it won't be worth of doing.

Quoting Cure (Reply 45):
2): "downgrading" (prices, costs, service, to a LCC's model) the offer of Y within Europe, BUT NOT within Italy



Quoting Cure (Reply 45):
4): focus STRONGLY on customer care

Is that a good option? I mean, people is "supposed" to have a bad image of Alitalia, even though most of their flights are full. If they lower they prices and improve their attention pax-wise, is that enough to bring people's attention back?

I think that if they are to change, they need something like a campaign showing the 'new' Alitalia image, with huge advertisement banners and TV spots, and something catchy for the public. They should bring a whole new experience. That way, they can bring Alitalia back to life in a good way. Ofcourse, they should clean their staff into some younger ones to also improve their new image that way.

Alitalia belongs to Italy, an amazing country full of nice people. They have money and options. If they get to work, they'll throw Alitalia up to the skies...

Cheers
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
Pulkovokiwi
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:17 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Fri May 19, 2006 5:17 am

797 I totally agree with you. In the sixties Italy had three great travel companies-Lloyd Triestino,Italian Line & Alitalia. The potential is there to make Alitalia great again. Remember how long BOAC/BA was a terrible airline and how they have turned themselves around? The Italian people are great and they have the greatest tourist destination in the world. Alitalia need to hire a corporate makeover advisor to kick ass.
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Fri May 19, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Lospaziale (Reply 44):
Can the 763 go no-stop from MXP to LA, which could be a 12:30 hours flight??

The flight is 13.30 hours from Milan to LA. They used the 767 to San Francisco and a combination of MD11 pax and MD11 combi to LA. I don't think the 767 has enough range due to the head winds.

Quoting 797 (Reply 46):
Is that a good option? I mean, people is "supposed" to have a bad image of Alitalia, even though most of their flights are full. If they lower they prices and improve their attention pax-wise, is that enough to bring people's attention back?

Alitalia's image is bad in foreign countries but not in Italy. Their customer service is poor in the States but pretty good in Italy. They have to work on their international image. One thing they can do is use good in flight entertainment. If they were to offer some of those fabulous Fellini movies on their flights to and from Italy, passenger might seek them out just to be entertained the right way. In the US you have people who fly Jet Blue Airways because they don't want to miss their favorite TV show. Virgin Atlantic is quiet successful because their in flight entertainment system offers the latest movies released. Alitalia could simply offer a good mix of old films like Fellini or Woody Allen or Spaghetti Westerns by Sergio Leone as a lure to get people to fly with them. The economy class on their long haul flights has 34" pitch. That's more seat space than in most other airlines. In the 80's Alitalia was famous for offering the best deserts in Business class. People flew with Alitalia just to taste those deserts. You need something that is unique and makes you stand out over the competition. Unfortunately, today people will fly with British Airways through London even though a direct flight with Alitalia is available.
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2301
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Alitalia's Situation?

Fri May 19, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting Cure (Reply 41):
if you have to travel for business out of Sardegna because of your job being based somewhere else, if you need connections, to travel to America...WTF would you do? Rely on the "very good" connex of Ryanair, for example in Frankfurt/Hahn or Dublin/Collinstown? Enjoy the advantages of a global alliance that Ryanair is putting up for you at the moment? Or would you sleep on an airport's floor lost in the middle of nowhere?
C'mon, it's easy!! IT WON'T BE THE SAME KIND OF SERVICE guaranteed by Alitalia, although you're perfectly entitled to be very acid about it.

Good connections form Sardinia to some overseas destinations are no essential right that taxpayers should finance. So that's not how PSO schemes were set up. The purpose of a PSO was to guarantee regular connections where these are considred necessary and would not be commercially exploitable without govt. support; and in that sense I find the PSO arrangement for the French and Italian islands a bit iffy. Why? Because the French and Italian islands have population sizes big enough to generate demand even in the low season, using smaller aircraft if necessary. Besides, they're not that far from the mainland, so people could use ferries as well (the majority of trips would be domestic anyway).

PSO's make perfect sense for islands like the Azores where there is a much smaller community, less tourism to create additional summer demand, and most importantly, no alternative! If Air France can fill 747 on a PSO route in summer due to tourist traffic, the PSO contract should be for winter seasons only (if at all!). That's an option that the EC unfortunately overlooked when drafting this set of legislation. It would also force the LCC's to be open about their intentions: if the PSO would be for winter only, and Ryanair would still want to fly the route, then the PSO would clearly be unnecessary. But now we will never know, unfortunately...
I scratch my head, therefore I am.

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