Sangas
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FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 5:13 pm

Flight International 16 May 2006 by Max Kingsley-Jones:

A380 Freighter Delayed As Emirates Switches Orders

Airbus confirms six-month slip in aircraft's delivery to launch customer FedEx

London - The A380 Freighter suffered two blows last week - the programme has slipped by six months [delivery to FedEx is delayed from August 2008 to Early 2009] and Emirates has switched its orders to the passenger version because of delay in finalisation of the aircraft's specifications.

...despite the slip, "the specification development for the Freighter is progressing very well." [said David Sutton, managing director of aircraft development, acquisitions and sales in FedEx's A380 programme office]

"...Final definition and specification freeze were proving elusive," says Emirates president (airline) Tim Clark. "We need to protect our delivery positions and switched the order to the passenger version. Once the freighter is ready, we will have another look."


Mr. Clark seems to be a lot less sanguine about the status of the A380F program than Mr. Sutton?

[Edited 2006-05-15 10:15:35]
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scouseflyer
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting Sangas (Thread starter):
Mr. Clark seems to be a lot less sanguine about the status of the A380F program than Mr. Sutton?

Maybe true, maybe not but Mr Clark also likes throwing his weight around to make his point!
 
slz396
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 6:49 pm

Well, since basically the entire A380 program got delayed roughly 6 months, it shouldn't come as a surprise the freighter version subsequently got delayed too?

What is remarkable is that Emirates apparently does not want to 'waste' any of its delivery slots and thus immediately changed their 2 (delayed) F slots to PAX versions, so that must mean their initial order of 43 (?) pax A380 was still a conservative order!

Unless these 2 additional pax versions happen to bring the number of ordered planes to exactly what Emirates thinks to need, this last minute change gives away their intention to order more A380s later! I am stunned by the number of A380s this airline apparently seems fit to operate.
 
Sangas
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 7:51 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
Well, since basically the entire A380 program got delayed roughly 6 months, it shouldn't come as a surprise the freighter version subsequently got delayed too?

From FI article:

"[Last May] we announced that the whole A380 programme has slipped by six months, and the new delivery date for the A380F is early 2009," says Airbus. "There has been one single delay to the programme." However, as late as last September, FedEx [Mr. Sutton], which has 10 Engine Alliance GP7200-powered A380Fs on order, was expecting to receive its first three freighters in 2008 [August & September].

Given this discrepancy, taken together with Mr. Clark's comments, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that the A380F slip reported in the article is a new hiccup.



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 2):
What is remarkable is that Emirates apparently does not want to 'waste' any of its delivery slots and thus immediately changed their 2 (delayed) F slots to PAX versions, so that must mean their initial order of 43 (?) pax A380 was still a conservative order!

Unless these 2 additional pax versions happen to bring the number of ordered planes to exactly what Emirates thinks to need, this last minute change gives away their intention to order more A380s later!

Perhaps, yet it does seem odd that Mr. Clark would make this move now if he has known about the A380F slip for nearly a year.
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fvtu134
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 8:07 pm

From what I understood earlier, I always thought that the delays on the A380 programme were due to the complex cabin outfitting requirements of various airlines.
Now except for a lot of isolation and cargo floors, there is not a lot of "cabin outfitting" to do on cargo aircraft. Does that mean that the entire programme was delayed becaues of cabin issues, and as such the freighter suffered as well? Or does this have something to do with the GP7200 delays?
Can't wait to see those freighters in action, although I wish they would just keep on flying those DC8-62's
who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
 
Sangas
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 9:27 pm

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 4):
From what I understood earlier, I always thought that the delays on the A380 programme were due to the complex cabin outfitting requirements of various airlines.
Now except for a lot of isolation and cargo floors, there is not a lot of "cabin outfitting" to do on cargo aircraft. Does that mean that the entire programme was delayed becaues of cabin issues, and as such the freighter suffered as well? Or does this have something to do with the GP7200 delays?

You make some excellent points. The only other thing I can think of is that the less than satisfactory "wing break" results are impacting the freighter more than pax version of the A388?
A camel only sees the other camels' humps
 
deltadc9
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 9:53 pm

Why do I get the feeling that FedEx is the only serious buyer here?

UPS seems to be at risk, given that they seem to have wanted out of the A300 deal more than they wanted the 380. Just my gut feel here. Also UPS going for new 747's when they never have before makes this order a little shaky in my eyes. Seemed like a "me too" order so FedEx wouldn't hog up all the free publicity.

If FedEx planes are delayed, doesn't that mean UPS planes are delayed too?
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EMBQA
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 6):
Why do I get the feeling that FedEx is the only serious buyer here?

Maybe because there has not been a single order placed for an A380 in over a year and half and now yet another delay..? Trust me, Boeing Sales people are knocking on the doors of these airlines and making some sweet deals.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
manni
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):
there has not been a single order placed for an A380 in over a year and half and now yet another delay..?

Please check your facts. Airbus sold 20 A380's last year. If we go back a year and a half we're halfway november 2004.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):
Trust me, Boeing Sales people are knocking on the doors of these airlines and making some sweet deals.

Based on your previous quote, no thanks.
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7e72004
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 10:45 pm

WHat is the earliest that we may see it here at IND??  Smile
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
deltadc9
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 9):
WHat is the earliest that we may see it here at IND??

Don't worry, it will CERTAINLY be before the Colts win the Superbowl!

Signed, Da Bears.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
EMBQA
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 8):
Please check your facts. Airbus sold 20 A380's last year

Half of those were pending orders and not really new. I have not seen the count of 159 change for a long time.

From 2005....

5- China Southern
5- Kingfisher (upstarts rarely survive)
10- UPS.. (firmed up an existing order)

[Edited 2006-05-15 16:36:06]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
irobertson
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 11:20 pm

Question about the implication of these A380 orders: will Fedex be adding to their fleet with these or using them as replacements? Just curious as to whether this spells the demise of any of the MD-10s or 11s... I sure hope not.
 
Sangas
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 9):
WHat is the earliest that we may see it here at IND??

Not sure when IND was scheduled to see the beginning of FX A380F operations. According to FI/Mr. Sutton last September the tentative delivery schedule was:

FedEx, which will be the launch operator of the A380-800F, is due to take its first three of 10 firmly ordered A380-800Fs between August and September 2008. Three more will follow in each of the next two years, with the final aircraft arriving in June 2011. The carrier also has at least 10 options for the aircraft.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...380F+fleet+expansion+strategy.html

Apparently, six months needs to be added to those target dates.
A camel only sees the other camels' humps
 
Scorpio
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
Those were pending orders and not really new.

You might want to check your facts once more.
 
manni
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
Those were pending orders and not really new.


No, they were not. Kingfisher announced in Paris (june) last year that they will buy A380's, UPS announced this in januari 2005, IIRC China Eastern also announced this around the same time UPS did. All of them firmed up their orders last year, UPS did this in december.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
I have not seen the count of 159 change for a long time.

Certain websites count orders and commitments together. The last commitment was made in Paris, 11 months ago. But your patience might be rewarded, the ILA opens tomorrow and Farnborough is around the corner.
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EMBQA
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 15):
You might want to check your facts once more.

You may want to read the Airbus Press Release..

http://stagev4.airbus.com/en/pressce...eases_items/12_13_05_UPS_A380.html

The order came from a commitment from Jan 2005.

[Edited 2006-05-15 16:42:21]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Sangas
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
10- UPS.. (firmed up an existing order)

Actually, it was the conversion of 37 A306Fs on firm order to 10 A388Fs. IIRC, at list prices, that order conversion represented about a $1.5B net reduction in sales value/future revenue for Airbus.

[Edited 2006-05-15 16:49:34]
A camel only sees the other camels' humps
 
manni
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Mon May 15, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):

5- Kingfisher (upstarts rarely survive)

That's an interesting quote.
What came first the chicken or the egg?
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PolymerPlane
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 4):
From what I understood earlier, I always thought that the delays on the A380 programme were due to the complex cabin outfitting requirements of various airlines.
Now except for a lot of isolation and cargo floors, there is not a lot of "cabin outfitting" to do on cargo aircraft. Does that mean that the entire programme was delayed becaues of cabin issues, and as such the freighter suffered as well? Or does this have something to do with the GP7200 delays?

Well even without the bowling alley and tennis court inside A380 right now, we have not even seen one aircraft fitted with customer's interior. I thought if the customer's interior is the cause of the delay they would have finished flight testing and deal with the interior fitting right now. The aircraft should have been in service with SQ by now. Very effective way to p*ss off your customers. Good Job Airbus!

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
Scorpio
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 17):
The order came from a commitment from Jan 2005.

I'm sorry, where exactly was it that I talked about the UPS order?

I repeat: you might want to re-check your facts yet again...
 
EMBQA
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 21):
I'm sorry, where exactly was it that I talked about the UPS order?

The pending orders I spoke of and you quoted me on and questioned are the UPS orders from Jan 2005.

Now... we need to get back to the subject at hand.

Yes, any delay in delivery hurts both the airline and the manufacture. Airlines have set their business plan into action based around that delivery, and the manufacture dosn't need the bad press and loss of confidance from other customers and potential clients.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
upstarts rarely survive

Quite a simplistic statement - not all upstarts are the same.


PH
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Scorpio
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 22):
The pending orders I spoke of and you quoted me on and questioned are the UPS orders from Jan 2005.

No they're not. You were talking about ALL orders placed last year. The UPS order was only one of them. It was only after my first post here that you edited your reply 12.
 
EMBQA
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 23):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
upstarts rarely survive

Quite a simplistic statement - not all upstarts are the same

Not hardly.. At least here in the US since Deregulation there have been over 200+ airlines formed both on paper and those that actually flew. Only 3 or 4 are still around today.

jetBlue
Airtran
Frontier
America West.. (soon to be USAirways)

..and that is all that come to mind. Sorry folks.. Southwest is pre-deregulation.

[Edited 2006-05-15 17:36:00]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
A319XFW
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 20):
Well even without the bowling alley and tennis court inside A380 right now, we have not even seen one aircraft fitted with customer's interior. I thought if the customer's interior is the cause of the delay they would have finished flight testing and deal with the interior fitting right now.

And we won't be seeing customer interiors until the 1st SQ aircraft is delivered - they are very sensitive about the competitors seeing their finished cabin.
And not only the physical product goes into getting a cabin done. That may be the tangible end product, but there's more to do than just that beforehand.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 25):
Not hardly.. At least here in the US since Deregulation there have been over 200+ airlines formed both on paper and those that actually flew. Only 3 or 4 are still around today.

Fine, but Kingfisher is backed by the United Breweries Group, the world's second largest brewer. Head of the company is Dr. Vijay Mallya, a very successful Bangalore-based billionaire businessman.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 26):
And we won't be seeing customer interiors until the 1st SQ aircraft is delivered - they are very sensitive about the competitors seeing their finished cabin.
And not only the physical product goes into getting a cabin done. That may be the tangible end product, but there's more to do than just that beforehand.

Even if we will not see SQ's final configuration, If the interior fitting is the main problem, A380 should have finished its test fly by now and focus on the interior fitting and cabin testing. The 474pax configuration we saw the other day shows nothing new in A380. It looked just like 2 airplane stuck together. So this come back to the point I tried to make that the cause of delay is not cabin fitting at all, but the overall program is running behind.

I am not saying that cabin fitting in A380 will not be harder than other plane, but judging from the current state of A380 certification process, it was not the cause of the delay. The plane has not even passed the ultimate wing load test. I am pretty sure they still need thousands of flight test hour before passing with high marks, which makes the plane would not have been ready by original schedule.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
Sangas
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 27):
Fine, but Kingfisher is backed by the United Breweries Group, the world's second largest brewer. Head of the company is Dr. Vijay Mallya, a very successful Bangalore-based billionaire businessman.

The Pritzker Family, the fabulously wealthy owners of the Hyatt hotel chain and many other companies, tried to revive Braniff in the Eighties, lost their shirts and gave up. Being wealthy and successfull in other business endeavors doesn't mean you have a clue about the airline business.
A camel only sees the other camels' humps
 
A319XFW
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 28):
I am pretty sure they still need thousands of flight test hour before passing with high marks, which makes the plane would not have been ready by original schedule.

They need to get 2500 FH - they just passed the 1000 FH mark with 2 test aircraft. Soon there will be 3 more.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Sangas (Reply 29):
Being wealthy and successfull in other business endeavors doesn't mean you have a clue about the airline business.

True, but I didn't suggest that. I simply pointed out that Kingfisher has lots of financial support and a smart businessman behind - unlike masses of other start-ups we have seen.
And we shouldn't forget India is not only an under-served market but also a fast growing one. If I start thinking about venturous start-ups in India, others come to mind, not necessarily Kingfisher.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
jacobin777
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Sangas (Reply 29):

The Pritzker Family, the fabulously wealthy owners of the Hyatt hotel chain and many other companies, tried to revive Braniff in the Eighties, lost their shirts and gave up. Being wealthy and successfull in other business endeavors doesn't mean you have a clue about the airline business.

they were my neighbors for many years... Smile
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Sangas
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 31):
I simply pointed out that Kingfisher has lots of financial support and a smart businessman behind

My point was that you could say the identical thing about the Pritzkers in the Eighties with Braniff, in fact, the late Jay Pritzker was considered by many to be a business genius. IIRC, the only business he attempted in which he wasn't ultimately successfull was trying to revive Braniff a couple of times.
A camel only sees the other camels' humps
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting Sangas (Reply 33):
My point was that you could say the identical thing about the Pritzkers in the Eighties with Braniff, in fact, the late Jay Pritzker was considered by many to be a business genius. IIRC, the only business he attempted in which he wasn't ultimately successfull was trying to revive Braniff a couple of times.

That's all fine - but it won't change my opinion that one cannot generalize about start-ups. Additionally, we're talking about India here - and Kingfisher is in a stronger position than several other new players in that market.

Anyway, if you want to continue that debate, feel free to send an IM - we're off topic.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
katekebo
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 1:45 am

Has Airbus (or FedEx) given any explanation/justification for this delay?

Could this have anything to do with the failed wing test? Maybe Airbus has realized that they need to do some re-design to the wing for the freighter version (which is heavier than the early A380-800 passenger version), and they are struggling with strengthening the wing while keeping the empty weight at target.
 
trex8
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 3:16 am

could it be engine development delays, weren't there some recent reports that Emirates taking the first GP700 engined A380 may be delayed possibly due in part to engine issues, if so, that may impact on Fedex and its uprated GP7000 engines for its A380F
 
CX747
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 3:26 am

This program is having its fair share of delays. The 747-400 program had the same type of issues though and did not have a great 1st year in service. While the delays mount, Boeing is more than likely trying to sweeten the pot to more than one carrier. UPS placed an order for A380s and now has an order for 747-400Fs and 747-400BCFs. The new Boeing sales team is making inroads to say the least.
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A342
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 16):
China Eastern

Make that China Southern.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
mham001
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 4:36 am

Rumor last week from a UPS employee is that the A380F program is "in disarray", and dont be surprised to see a cancellation.
 
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glideslope
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 8):
Please check your facts. Airbus sold 20 A380's last year. If we go back a year and a half we're halfway november 2004.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression they only sold 19 last year.  Big grin
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
manni
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 40):
Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression they only sold 19 last year. Big grin

Did someone farted?  Yeah sure
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Sangas
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 39):
Rumor last week from a UPS employee is that the A380F program is "in disarray", and dont be surprised to see a cancellation.

Perhaps UPS shares Mr. Clark's apparent frustration with "final definition and specification freeze proving to be elusive?" One has to wonder why Mr. Clark couldn't be reassured or persuaded to be patient, swap slots for pax planes to preserve delivery positions yet maintain the order for the A380F, if EK still has a requirement for this freighter?
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Sangas
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Tue May 16, 2006 7:48 pm

The full text of the Flight International Article is now available online:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+switches+orders+to+passenger.html
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Poitin
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RE: FedEx Faces A380F Delay

Wed May 17, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Sangas (Reply 41):
Perhaps UPS shares Mr. Clark's apparent frustration with "final definition and specification freeze proving to be elusive?" One has to wonder why Mr. Clark couldn't be reassured or persuaded to be patient, swap slots for pax planes to preserve delivery positions yet maintain the order for the A380F, if EK still has a requirement for this freighter?

I doubt EK ever needed a package delivery supervan like the A380F and finally figured it out.

Still, what are they going to do with 45 A380's?
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