klmcedric
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747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Tue May 16, 2006 9:52 pm

Hey everyone, Im in KWI here typing on a arabic keyboard so forgive me for the grammar.
I ve just been chatting with our captain and he told me that pretty soon the
KLM 74M aircraft wont be allowed over US airspace anymore. He was not sure
when this would be but he thought before 2010.
Does anyone know more about this development?
Currently KLM still serves JFK,ORD,IAH and LAX(with very lucrative horse transport) with the 74M. How will they adapt to that situation?
Is the more and more credible 773 order part of the solution?
They sure will need more freighters, maybe convert some of their full pax 744 and put new 773 to replace them for passenger traffic???
 
Sangas
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Tue May 16, 2006 9:59 pm

The capabilities of the 744M has worked well for KLM, it will be difficult to replace since no other aircraft currently available will be able to fulfill the same missions in the same way.
A camel only sees the other camels' humps
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Tue May 16, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting KLMCedric (Thread starter):
2010.
Does anyone know more about this development?

It is an insane idea to ban combi, it would seem more of protectionism for the likes of FEDEX and UPS. However, KLM is going to get around this.

LAX/IAH - If all goes through will become full pax 747-400 stations

LAX/IAH - To gain a 4 x weekly 747-400 KLM Cargo Flight

JFK/ORD - Both stations will be 777 for pax flights
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
JOSEMEX
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Tue May 16, 2006 10:43 pm

If this happens, I guess KL's MEX service will be affected too, as it enters US airspace.
 
col
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Tue May 16, 2006 10:50 pm

Is this for real! Makes no sense whatsoever. Why refuse a combi, when you allow full FR. From my memory there was one accident with a combi, SAA. More 747 Pax have gone down, but they are still flying in the USA.

Am I missing something?

Col
 
drerx7
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Tue May 16, 2006 10:53 pm

What is the reason for this? Safety concerns--how so?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
ltbewr
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Tue May 16, 2006 11:03 pm

I think there were some topics on the decline of combi aircraft in the USA and elsewhere in the recent past. IIRC, there are issues of fire safety when pax and considerable cargo are on an aircraft. In the USA, laws and rules as to requied fire safety standards changed due to the Valujet crash of 10 years ago, as well as other in-flight freight involved accidents. The fire safety requirements included special bulkheads between the pax and freight sections, fire supression equipment, and other related requirements. You also have long range mid-sized aircraft (767, A-310/330, 757) that cover the mid level pax demands, so you don't need to buy a 747 to cover your mid-sized pax needs and balance the rest of the flight costs with freight.
 
Lear777
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 12:53 am

This will pose problems for the PIA 747 Combi flights into Houston as well...

Brian
Go Astros!
 
klmcedric
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 1:25 am

How about EVA, dont they use their combis to the US also?
 
hentzz
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting Lear777 (Reply 7):
This will pose problems for the PIA 747 Combi flights into Houston as well...
I thought that PIA flies B772ER/LR to Houston

[Edited 2006-05-16 18:29:33]

[Edited 2006-05-16 18:29:59]
 
drerx7
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting Hentzz (Reply 9):
Quoting Lear777 (Reply 7):
This will pose problems for the PIA 747 Combi flights into Houston as well...
I thought that PIA flies B772ER/LR to Houston

Nope its been changed to a combi--its been one for about a month or so now.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
Dreamflight767
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 8):
USER PROFILESEND INSTANT MSGADD TO RESP USERSSUGGEST DELETIONQUOTE SELECTED TEXT

KLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 477 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted Tue May 16 2006 18:25:17 UTC+2 and read 58 times:


How about EVA, dont they use their combis to the US also?

Yep, we get them into SFO often.
 
hentzz
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 10):
Nope its been changed to a combi--its been one for about a month or so now.

Thanks for correction, but why did this happen?
I understand the need for cargo capacity, but it needs to make a stop-over.
The B772LR would be able to make this without a stop. Wouldn't it be more reosanable to simply put an extra cargo airplane on the route?
 
PIA747
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 2:04 am

I guess i am going to veer slightly off topic here. PIA flight to IAH is now once a week by a 74M. This is expected to go up to twice a week next month. The loads to IAH have not been good from the start, and i thought PIA decided to compliment it with some cargo. However, on talking to the captain who operated the May 5th flight to IAH, i have learnt that PIA is infact not carrying any cargo to/from IAH. Their route economics just keeps on amazing me.
 
Checo77
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 2:12 am

KLM Cedric, welcome to my RU list!!! Briliant posts regarding KLM must be rewarded!!!

It looks weird that the US will not let the 744M fly. If this happens, it will affect KLM so much that they need to think as of NOW of a replacement. I think we will see a massive (propably 20 pieces) for B773.
Adam
Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
 
drerx7
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting PIA747 (Reply 13):
I guess i am going to veer slightly off topic here. PIA flight to IAH is now once a week by a 74M. This is expected to go up to twice a week next month. The loads to IAH have not been good from the start, and i thought PIA decided to compliment it with some cargo. However, on talking to the captain who operated the May 5th flight to IAH, i have learnt that PIA is infact not carrying any cargo to/from IAH. Their route economics just keeps on amazing me.

Wow--why fly the route then...I mean I like spotting a classic 747 here at IAH, but c'mon are they in it to win it or just exist?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
lincoln
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:00 am

Has anyone actually confirmed that combis will be banned?

The OP cites a rumor (heard from a pilot of all places)... any FAR the forbids them? Noise requirements?

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
A342
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting KLMCedric (Thread starter):
They sure will need more freighters, maybe convert some of their full pax 744

Combis are a lot easier to convert to freighters as the already have the SCD (side cargo door). If KL doesn't find other markets on which they could put the combis, it's the combis that they'll convert to freighters first.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
N1120A
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:20 am

Combis are still allowed to the US and will be for the forseeable future. The rules change relates to new build combis only, any combi built prior to the rules change preventing certification of new build combis is grandfathered in and can fly to and from the US.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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N328KF
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:38 am

What about double-decker Combis? You'd use one deck for cargo and the other for passengers. I think this would be a great use for the A380.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
trex8
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 19):
What about double-decker Combis? You'd use one deck for cargo and the other for passengers. I think this would be a great use for the A380.

I've pointed this out in previous threads, the fire safety problems which concern the FAA should be easily dealt with with 2 decks and you get if you put humans up top and cargo on the main and lower deck essentially A332 if not A343 passenger capacity and almost 744F cargo capacity for almost the same fuel use and half the flight crew. It would be good for many east asian carriers going to US or Europe
 
col
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 9:19 am

OK, let me get this right. A pax Airbus or Boeing can be purchased new and fly into USA with PAX. But a new build Combi cannot. An even bigger But, is that these new build Airbus/Boeing pax widebodies carry quite a large amount of cargo in their belly's. Pax+Cargo = Combi!.

The 380 would probably sell more if it were available as a combi, more efficient for everyone.

Is it me, or does this seem a little stupid! If Combi's are that dangerous to stop producing them, why aren't they grounded now?
 
alexchao
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 8):
How about EVA, dont they use their combis to the US also?

Yes, EVA uses their 747-400 Combi aircraft to SEA, EWR, SFO, and LAX. They have been pondering converting those aircraft to freighters with the ongoing delivery of their 777s. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the OP's rumored policy change in the U.S.
 
atmx2000
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting Col (Reply 22):
OK, let me get this right. A pax Airbus or Boeing can be purchased new and fly into USA with PAX. But a new build Combi cannot. An even bigger But, is that these new build Airbus/Boeing pax widebodies carry quite a large amount of cargo in their belly's. Pax+Cargo = Combi!.

Pax aircraft can carry cargo. The rule is that you now have to have a fixed bulkhead to separate the cargo section from the passenger section. A floor separating cargo from passengers would count as a fixed barrier. A combi with cargo and pax on the same floor would have to be specifically designed with a fixed bulkhead, and there probably isn't a large enough market for it in any one particular configuration in terms of passenger and cargo compartment size.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
9V-SPJ
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 12:07 pm

I don't want to be picky, but isn't the B74M = B747-200 combi and the B74E = B747-400 combi? Could he have meant B747-200 combi?

9V-SPJ
 
Carpethead
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 12:11 pm

Asiana would also be affected as they fly the 74Es to destinations in the US including LAX & ORD for sure.

While EVA has 773ER/772LRs on order which can replace the 74Es, Asiana has not outlined any plans to replace its 74Es.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 1:00 pm

I'm just speculating here, but I'll go along with the fixed bulkhead idea suggested by Atmx 2000.

In a 747 combi, cargo is stored in half of the plane, and passengers in the other half. If, during flight, the airplane suddenly banks up or down, then gravity and weight together can cause cargo to come crashing through and plow into the passengers sitting in the other half of the deck. This is one reason the 747 hump was designed, to position the cockpit above any shifting freight in the main deck below.

This problem is also neatly avoided in the A380 combi suggested in this thread, IF the cargo is stored in the lower deck only. Can you imagine if the cargo was in the upper deck above you? Would you be comfortable knowing that all that weight could come crashing down on you in an accident?

Speaking of which, this could also be a problem if you sit in the lower deck of an A380 even if passengers are in the upper deck. How strong is that upper deck support in event of a crash or accident, anyway?

Fuel for thought,

SparkingWave ~~~
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kaitak744
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 1:07 pm

Well, there are more combis which come to the USA.

Air China, KLM, EVA, Asiana, Air France, Lufthansa (on occasion), Air India, and PIA. Looks like they will all be affected.
 
jacobin777
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting PIA747 (Reply 13):
I guess i am going to veer slightly off topic here. PIA flight to IAH is now once a week by a 74M. This is expected to go up to twice a week next month. The loads to IAH have not been good from the start, and i thought PIA decided to compliment it with some cargo. However, on talking to the captain who operated the May 5th flight to IAH, i have learnt that PIA is infact not carrying any cargo to/from IAH. Their route economics just keeps on amazing me.

supposedly that is wrong...I've read that they do indeed filled with a lot of cargo...

KL's 747M will be missed... Sad

at least I was fortunate to fly on them a couple of times to from ORD-AMS... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
PIA747
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 2:51 pm

Read on HOP. Believeing F.K, I admire your guts.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 3:04 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 28):
Air China, KLM, EVA, Asiana, Air France, Lufthansa (on occasion), Air India, and PIA. Looks like they will all be affected.

Air France and Lufthansa no longer operate Combi's, they converted them to full pax several years ago!
 
SFO2SVO
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 3:18 pm

Alaska also operates some 737-200 combis. Would those be banned too?
318-19-20-21 332 343 717 727 737-234578 743-4 752 763 772 D9/10 M11/8x/90 F70 RJ85 ATR72 SF340 E120 TU34/54 IL18/62/86/9
 
jacobin777
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 3:34 pm

Quoting PIA747 (Reply 30):
Read on HOP. Believeing F.K, I admire your guts.

true..maybe i should take those comments with a grain of salt... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
PhilSquares
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RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 4:01 pm

There is no ban, or proposed ban on combis operating into/out of the US. The issue is the ability to fight any fire on the same deck as you have pax seated.

The FAA has a NPRM for the requirements and basically, you have to have a dedicated crewmember/firefighter or a dedicated fire detection/protection system.

The difference now is that on a 744F if you have a fire on the main deck, you are going to climb/descent to FL250. On a combi you really can't do that.

Having a 380 combi really wouldn't solve the problem unless you made the lower deck a class D (IIRC) compartment. However, since the pressurization is common to both decks it would take a great deal of engineering, added weight to have the two decks really separate.
Fly fast, live slow
 
trex8
Posts: 4578
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 33):
The FAA has a NPRM for the requirements and basically, you have to have a dedicated crewmember/firefighter or a dedicated fire detection/protection system.

The difference now is that on a 744F if you have a fire on the main deck, you are going to climb/descent to FL250. On a combi you really can't do that.

Having a 380 combi really wouldn't solve the problem unless you made the lower deck a class D (IIRC) compartment. However, since the pressurization is common to both decks it would take a great deal of engineering, added weight to have the two decks really separate.

sorry but I'm lost on why the Combi can't descend

wouldn't having a dedicated fire detection/protection system be much easier with seperate decks?
also how does having crew rest areas/lavs/galleys in the underfloor cargo deck of present in service planes affect fire protection of the main passenger deck? seems to me that if you have a "hole" from the main cabin deck to the underfloor cargo area (for crew rest/lavs or whatever) and its "fire safe", it can't be that much more difficult to do with something like the A380 and segregating the two main decks.
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Wed May 17, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 26):
How strong is that upper deck support in event of a crash or accident, anyway?

Strong enough to comply with 14CFR25 requirements.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...browse/Title14/14cfr25_main_02.tpl


Tod
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Thu May 18, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 34):
sorry but I'm lost on why the Combi can't descend

How would you keep the passenger are pressurized while getting the main deck area to FL250? In essence, what you're doing is depressurizing the entire aircraft.
Fly fast, live slow
 
kl662
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:39 pm

RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Thu May 18, 2006 12:59 am

Saw an Asiana combi getting loaded at LAX on Monday. They had quite an operation going, complete with the support pole at the rear of the plane to keep it from tipping over.

My first overseas and 747 flight was on a KL combi (hence my namesake)... Would be a shame to see them go.
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Thu May 18, 2006 1:05 am

This sure doesnn't make sense and the fact that it came from a pilot even makes it lose more credibility. I think it's bologni coz there's no fesible reason to ban combis. If there is, please share it.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
trex8
Posts: 4578
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: 747 Combis No Longer Allowed Over US Soon?

Thu May 18, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 36):
How would you keep the passenger are pressurized while getting the main deck area to FL250? In essence, what you're doing is depressurizing the entire aircraft.

ah now I understand, I thought you meant the plane itself was going down to FL250

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