cltguy
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New CLT Flights To Europe

Thu May 18, 2006 10:41 pm

In today's Charlotte Observer, Scott Kirby states that US Airways is looking at adding a couple Europe flights to Charlotte in the coming years. He didn't state where in Europe...

So would anyone like to make some guesses?

CLT already has service to LGW, FRA, and MUC.

My first guess would be Paris...the second one is much harder as there are a lot of possibilites...Manchester, another German destination...I don't know. I am clueless.

Maybe someone with better knowledge could make an educated guess.
 
md90fan
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Thu May 18, 2006 10:49 pm

Maybe MXP or FCO?

Excuse my ignorance, but why do LH and US both serve MUC? Is there alot of germans who live in the CLT area from MUC or what?

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Damian
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Thu May 18, 2006 10:50 pm

I wonder whether they would try to avoid too much overlap with European destinations already served direct from PHL?

What type of aircraft would they be looking to use from CLT for these routes?

How about AMS, CPH, MAD or MXP?
 
usflyer msp
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Thu May 18, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 1):
Excuse my ignorance, but why do LH and US both serve MUC? Is there alot of germans who live in the CLT area from MUC or what?

US flies CLT-FRA [banking industry] (US only flies PHL-MUC)
LH flies CLT-MUC [automobile industry]

Quoting Cltguy (Thread starter):
So would anyone like to make some guesses?

I would guess CDG [general] and ZRH [banking industry and STAR hub]
 
ba757gla
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Thu May 18, 2006 11:36 pm

do you really think that MAN could support a flight to charlotte ?
 
pensacolaguy
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Thu May 18, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 1):
Excuse my ignorance, but why do LH and US both serve MUC? Is there alot of germans who live in the CLT area from MUC or what?

LH only flys CLT-MUC

Quoting Cltguy (Thread starter):
My first guess would be Paris

I hope it's CDG. Sucks to have to fly up to PHL via CLT to get to other european cities. CDG/FCO in particular.
 
usairways85
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 1:08 am

I would guess CDG or MAN as well, but this is at least 3 years off, unless US gets 2nd hand widebodies. There are barely enough widebodies to handle the current transatlantic flts, and PHL is the main European gateway.

US doesn't serve ZRH, and if they do in the future it will likely be from PHL.
My guess is with the exception of CDG US is looking at serving big Star gateways in Europe, FCO and MXP aren't one of them. PHL-MAN is very good route for US and MAN being a BMI hub, CLT-MAN is a possibility down the road
 
dutchjet
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 1:24 am

A couple of guesses........

CLT-CDG simply because its missing from the EU Big Three destinations (London, Paris, Frankfurt).

CLT-AMS is a remote possibility; although US already flies PHL-AMS, the route's performance from a financial point of view is nothing more than mediocre.

CLT-MAN but not because BMI is there, simply because CLT is in a good geogaphic position for pax travelling between Florida/Southeast US and MAN to make reasonable and fast connections....this flight would also take some pressure off of the PHL-MAN service which does quite well (I think).

CLT-MAD could be interesting.....nonstop service between the US and Spain is rather limited.

CLT-MXP or CLT-FCO would be difficult to run on a yearround basis....service to southern Europe is far more seasonal and yeilds tend to be lower on southern European routes (Italy in particular).

US will have some flexibility to add more European services in the coming years....they have the three ex-ATA 752s, it seems as if the 762ERs are going to get interior updates and remain in the US/HP fleet, and there are A332s on order (which were originally supposed to replace the 762s) for delivery in 2008-2009 I believe.......as for the A350s.....who knows?
 
b777a340fan
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 1):
Excuse my ignorance, but why do LH and US both serve MUC? Is there alot of germans who live in the CLT area from MUC or what?

May also be part of an agreement with the Star Alliance. It can also easily connect passengers to other places in Europe....US has a lot of partners in Europe, so it makes sense.

My guess would also be CLT-AMS, CLT-Zurich, CLT-Lisbon. These routes don't have much competition.
 
commavia
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 1:53 am

I agree with some of the points stated above already. My $.02 ...

CDG makes perfect sense. USAirways flew it before, and Paris is a huge European market. A daily 767 would probably do quite well now that the trans-Atlantic market has rebounded from 9/11.

FCO I could see working on a seasonal basis. A daily 767 operating May-October could probably do quite well on the route, and CLT would provide fast, easy connections to the south and the west coast, and take pressure of the PHL flights.

MAN might work with a daily 767, although it would likely be tough to fill on a daily basis from September to April, because of pharma in North Carolina, plus MAN's large market size and demand for service to the southeast (Florida).

AMS is a stretch, as is MAD, because while both are large European air markets, I don't think either really has that much of a commercial link with CLT, at least not enough to make those routes work long-term.
 
ORD2PHL
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
and there are A332s on order (which were originally supposed to replace the 762s) for delivery in 2008-2009 I believe

I know this has come up before but I thought US scrapped the A332 order in BK and only has the A350 order now with Airbus.

ORD2PHL
 
usairways85
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 8):
My guess would also be CLT-AMS, CLT-Zurich, CLT-Lisbon. These routes don't have much competition.

And they don't have much demand either. PHL-LIS is only 5 days a week, PHL-AMS is one of the poorest performing transatlantic flts, and if US adds ZRH as a destination it will be from US' prime European gateway, PHL.
 
FCYTravis
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting ORD2PHL (Reply 10):
I know this has come up before but I thought US scrapped the A332 order in BK and only has the A350 order now with Airbus.

Nope. The A332 order is still on the books and scheduled.
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HPAEAA
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 12):
Quoting ORD2PHL (Reply 10):
I know this has come up before but I thought US scrapped the A332 order in BK and only has the A350 order now with Airbus.

Nope. The A332 order is still on the books and scheduled.

I think US did scrap an order in round one in court... however when the Merger was annouced Airbus made a sizable equity purchase of the new company.. Parker said in the merger announcement that they had negotiated with Airbus to space out the orders for the A320's that HP was buying and also purchased some A332's to replace the remaining 767's in the US Airways Fleet. they also ordered the A350's at that time.... I believe that was probably the incetive they used to get Airbus to inverst in the "New" USAir
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MAH4546
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 2:59 am

By reading the actual article, is is pretty clear that US Airways is not set on adding Europe-Charlotte routes, and currently has no plans to do so. All they simply stated is, in nicer marketing terms, "we currently have no plans on doing so, but we won't discount it for the future". They simply made it sound a little bit more optimistic, although they clearly said they currently aren't planning on adding another Charlotte-Europe route.
a.
 
cltguy
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
By reading the actual article, is is pretty clear that US Airways is not set on adding Europe-Charlotte routes, and currently has no plans to do so. All they simply stated is, in nicer marketing terms, "we currently have no plans on doing so, but we won't discount it for the future". They simply made it sound a little bit more optimistic, although they clearly said they currently aren't planning on adding another Charlotte-Europe route.

This is the quote from Scott Kirby:

"Over the next few years, there are opportunities for one or two more [Europe flights] out of Charlotte. We've certainly looked at them. In today's environment, we wouldn't say "yes," but they're close enough that it's certainly a possibility."

Nothing is ever certain until it happens...but I would take Scott's comments as a positive for CLT. So if you had to quess which destinations they would add...what would be your guess MAH?
 
MAH4546
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Cltguy (Reply 15):
This is the quote from Scott Kirby:

"Over the next few years, there are opportunities for one or two more [Europe flights] out of Charlotte. We've certainly looked at them. In today's environment, we wouldn't say "yes," but they're close enough that it's certainly a possibility."

Nothing is ever certain until it happens...but I would take Scott's comments as a positive for CLT. So if you had to quess which destinations they would add...what would be your guess MAH?

I would definitley take them as positive as well, but they are still doing nothing more than fluffing up and putting a positive spin on the real answer: "there are no current plans to do so". I'm sure US will add a new European city in due time from Charlotte, and the only logical answer to that would be to re-start Paris. There really aren't any other logical choices. Rome could work as a summer-only, but Rome's yields aren't anything to write home about.
a.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Cltguy (Reply 15):
"Over the next few years, there are opportunities for one or two more [Europe flights] out of Charlotte. We've certainly looked at them. In today's environment, we wouldn't say "yes," but they're close enough that it's certainly a possibility."

Nothing is ever certain until it happens...but I would take Scott's comments as a positive for CLT. So if you had to quess which destinations they would add...what would be your guess MAH?

The question is how much better the environment has to get for more Europe flights. There's no 9/11 backlash anymore.

The problem is that there isn't a lot of O&D in CLT, especially internationally. Onward traffic is already largely taken care of in MUC and FRA, so new flights, even to *A hubs, can't really be propped up by a whole lot of connecting possibilities. A lot of the domestic connections get taken care of at PHL, so CLT doesn't seem like it's in a real good position for further international expansion.
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gilesdavies
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 4:39 am

My money is on Manchester being one of the two destinations to be launched from Charlotte, if this does go ahead.

PHL to MAN is one US Airways' most profitable and highest payload routes.

Despite other carriers flying between the US and Manchster, many of these struggle to fill the premium cabin. But US Airways does not seem to have any problems, also the average seat on the route is usually more expensive than from LGW and therefore do not have have to discount as heavily.

Correct me if Im wrong... But I am sure when US Airways launched from MAN they only ever intended for it to me operated by 762 and all the A330's when on order were earmarked for other routes. But due to the success of the route it was once of the forst routes to be upgraded...

Despite the city of Manchester only having a population of around 600,000 inhabitants, compared to cities like Madrid, Rome and Paris have populations of 2-3million people. Manchester serves a huge area with cities like Liverpool, Bradford, Sheffield and Leeds all within 1 hours drive and these cities all boast populations of over 300,000, along with many other large towns with over 100,000 inhabitants.

I think CDG is likely to be second route to CLT to be lauched as this is one of the only routes after LGW, MAN and FRA that maintains an A330 all year round.
 
SPREE34
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Ba757gla (Reply 4):
do you really think that MAN could support a flight to charlotte ?

Might be a good run to put a 757 on.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
dutchjet
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 19):
Might be a good run to put a 757 on.

Could a 752 do CLT-MAN? Sounds a bit long to me......if launched, it would be with one of US's faithful 767-200ERs....enough range and enough seats.
 
desertjets
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 19):
Might be a good run to put a 757 on.

A 757 flight from CLT might be a bit of a stretch. CLT-MAN is longer than CLE-LGW by about 100nm.



What about Ireland. Could a flight be flown ex-CLT under the current agreement? It seems like a potential market, at least in season. Possibly doable w/ a 757.
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vega
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
I would definitley take them as positive as well, but they are still doing nothing more than fluffing up and putting a positive spin on the real answer: "there are no current plans to do so".

Since he said definitly "No" to PIT, the CLT comment does indeed seem "positive".

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 18):
I think CDG is likely to be second route to CLT to be lauched as this is one of the only routes after LGW, MAN and FRA that maintains an A330 all year round.

Agree. If it happens, CDG summer only. Rome is a 330 year round.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
Rome could work as a summer-only, but Rome's yields aren't anything to write home about.

It's highly unlikely. Rome is a "glamor" destination on a route chart and every major airline likes to have one. If you look at NYC, all the majors have only one flight a day. Delta has a 2nd, 2 days a week in summer I believe. United does not serve Rome at all. The one daily US 330 year round is all US needs. PHL does just OK (like everyone else) on this "tourist" route because of the large number of Catholic O&D in the region. CO, for example, only uses a 767 on it's NYC-ROM route.

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 11):
PHL-AMS is one of the poorest performing transatlantic flts,

Maybe so, but KLM was all set to start PHL-AMS this summer, when they changed their mind for internal reasons.

One thought. Just because an international route doesn't work from PHL, doesn't mean it wouldn't work from CLT. An example is MEX. But still, I think if CLT expands, it'll be a restart of CDG (seasonal). An advantage CLT has over PHL for some potential international destinations, is that US has no competition from foreign carriers at CLT as it does at PHL.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
StarCityFlyr
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 6:06 am

Could it be possible that CLT has less of a propensity for delays on inbound and outbound traffic consequently having fewer travel problems for the flying public it serves? I can't help but wonder if the general delays experienced in PHL might be more of a cost burden than one might expect. If you reduce the cost burden...profits might increase.

Maybe, just maybe, US Airways might be looking at ways to make the travel experience for their international customers a bit more comfortable while at the same time increasing traffic at a somewhat under utilized international departure gateway. It is, after all, the southern hospitality!

Just my thoughts...

Happy Flying!
 
HPAEAA
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 18):
Correct me if Im wrong... But I am sure when US Airways launched from MAN they only ever intended for it to me operated by 762 and all the A330's when on order were earmarked for other routes. But due to the success of the route it was once of the forst routes to be upgraded...

Parker said in the merger annoucement that the A330's they were ordering were to replace the 762's in the fleet and eliminate an a/c type....
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Sean-SAN-
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 6:19 am

I haven't seen the numbers on MAN... but when I flew it, it was obvious we were making a lot of money on cargo... they loaded the entire front of the plane with 2 or 3 massive pallets with some kind of industrial looking equipment.

Also, US-MAN fares tend to be quite high, close to the $1000 range for economy. Although judging from the Envoy area, it seemed the premium cabin was filled with a majority of upgraders and nonrevs.
 
vega
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting StarCityFlyr (Reply 23):
Could it be possible that CLT has less of a propensity for delays on inbound and outbound traffic consequently having fewer travel problems for the flying public it serves? I can't help but wonder if the general delays experienced in PHL might be more of a cost burden than one might expect. If you reduce the cost burden...profits might increase.

Although that may true, the offset is the financial success of (international) flights. Remember, the PHL International Hub is frequently referred to as the "crown jewel" in the US structure because of it's profitability. Why would Parker ever take the risk of moving "success" to an untried environment, knowing in advance that the CLT O&D would be questionable at best. Also, the International Banks at PHL are timed to avoid or at least reduce the delays associated with the peak Domestic traffic.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
I'm sure US will add a new European city in due time from Charlotte, and the only logical answer to that would be to re-start Paris. There really aren't any other logical choices. Rome could work as a summer-only

Those would be my logical guesses as well, especially CLT-CDG, as it was served before. We'll just have to wait and see.
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commavia
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 22):
Catholic O&D

I hear that's why those Florence-Mexico City and Rio de Janeiro-Manila flights do so well.  Smile
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 8:22 am

While I don't really think we'll see anything trans-atlanticly from CLT for some time...CDG is the obvious choice, but I also think ZRH looks more attractive now that Swiss is part of the *A, and can provide feed on both ends. However, I doubt that US would try to penetrate the ZRH market without having a PHL flight first. My $.02
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md90fan
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 3):
US flies CLT-FRA [banking industry] (US only flies PHL-MUC)

My fault, the guy posted MUC as one of the t/a destinations ex.CLT and I thought US flew it too  Smile

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 8):
My guess would also be CLT-AMS, CLT-Zurich, CLT-Lisbon. These routes don't have much competition.

How about no competition  sarcastic   Smile
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Cubsrule
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 9:05 am

The interesting thing is that CLT-CDG was added in the spring of 2000, right at the last air travel peak. With traffic back to 2000 levels, and even exceeding them in some places, I wonder what US is waiting for besides more widebodies. Was this route making money before 9/11?

[Edited 2006-05-19 02:06:04]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PSA727
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 10:20 am

If I had to bet on a new CLT-Europe route, it would be to CDG.

I flew that route in 2000, while US was also flying PIT-CDG and
PHL-CDG, and that flight was packed full.

About CLT-MAN.....maybe if they made PHL-MAN a 752 and the
CLT flight a 762, but I don't know if a 333 and a 762 could see
that much demand outside of peak summer months.

I still think they could operate 2 or 3 752s out of BOS to some
European cities during the stronger months. There is a good
amount of US feeder flights into BOS, especially from LGA and DCA,
as well as the HP and UA code-share flights.

If only they could get Massport to do something about the customs
and immigration situation at BOS !!!
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
Spoke2Spoke
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 11:40 am

Does this mean US will be purchasing more widebodies in the short-term? The 762's and 333's are stretched thin now. Maybe something temporary before the 332's get delivered.

Paris makes a lot of sense. I think US used to do CLT-CDG. I wouldn't be suprised however if at least one of the destinations were a new European destination for the airline.
...carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks. - Wilbur Wright
 
USairways16BWI
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 19, 2006 12:21 pm

Possible routes IMO:
CLT-ARN
CLT-CDG
CLT-SNN/DUB
CLT-ZRH
CLT-AMS
 
A330323X
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 26, 2006 1:51 pm

CLT-CDG was a disaster the first time around, it won't be returning. At one point, US briefly had 4x daily flights into CDG, and now they're down to 1x daily, and even that is just an average performer. US just can't compete with the SkyTeam hub there, just as other airlines have a relatively harder time at FRA.

If I had to pick a new route, it'd be CLT-MAD, then CLT-MAN as a second guess, but I don't see either starting until at least 2008, likely 2009.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
vega
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 26, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting A330323X (Reply 35):
At one point, US briefly had 4x daily flights into CDG, and now they're down to 1x daily, and even that is just an average performer.

An "average" performer in the winter, or are you saying that PHL-CDG is an average performer in the peak spring/summer season also? I thought it did very well last/this summer/spring. Anyway, a problem is of course that it's competing with a daily AF 340/300. It would be interesting to know what avarage % of the AF flight is fed by DL and what % is PHL O&D.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
A330323X
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 26, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting Vega (Reply 36):
An "average" performer in the winter, or are you saying that PHL-CDG is an average performer in the peak spring/summer season also? I thought it did very well last/this summer/spring.

I meant average relative to the other US transatlantic flights. It's quite profitable on an absolute basis. But compared to the other US t/a flights, it's less profitable than 75% of the other year-round flights, but more profitable than the seasonal routes. The point was that, in general, when capacity is slashed like that, yields should have risen substantially, and the remaining flight should perform great; but it doesn't, due to the challenges US faces in the CDG market.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
dutchjet
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 26, 2006 6:45 pm

Quoting A330323X (Reply 35):
CLT-CDG was a disaster the first time around, it won't be returning. At one point, US briefly had 4x daily flights into CDG, and now they're down to 1x daily, and even that is just an average performer. US just can't compete with the SkyTeam hub there, just as other airlines have a relatively harder time at FRA.

If I had to pick a new route, it'd be CLT-MAD, then CLT-MAN as a second guess, but I don't see either starting until at least 2008, likely 2009.



Quoting A330323X (Reply 37):

I meant average relative to the other US transatlantic flights. It's quite profitable on an absolute basis. But compared to the other US t/a flights, it's less profitable than 75% of the other year-round flights, but more profitable than the seasonal routes. The point was that, in general, when capacity is slashed like that, yields should have risen substantially, and the remaining flight should perform great; but it doesn't, due to the challenges US faces in the CDG market.

Interesting info.........again, we learn that packed airplanes dont mean profits. Its also "proof" of how difficult it is for an airline to operate in and out of a Fortress Hub of a competing alliance. On paper, and from a business and logical point of view, one would think that CLT-CDG would be a winner (I know that I thought so, see my post above).......lots of demand to CDG, a reasonable mix of biz and leisure traffic and other elements that are required to make a route successful, yet we learn that US had "trouble" with its services to Paris due to the SkyTeam factor at that city. I do know the financial results of the PHL-AMS route are also not spectacular......the KL/NW/CO Skyteam factor has a great influence in this market as well.

Any hope of US ever returing to BRU? US flew into BRU during the summer of 2001 and quickly left after 9/11 (understandable).......I have no idea as to how the route performed, and the route was only flown for a short time (w/762s) so it did not have time to mature. As BRU is not dominated by another alliance, and there is not a huge amount of capacity to the US (since SN does not fly its own metal to the US).......could this be an oppporunity for US? The 752 would have no problem flying PHL-BRU.

Thanks for sharing this info, I know that I learned something.
 
flyboyaz
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RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 26, 2006 10:54 pm

I haven't heard anything about new flights out of CLT but they did say since we are certifying 3 more 757's for ETOPS, we will add 1 or 2 more new European destinations from PHL next summer.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
JoFMO
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Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:55 am

RE: New CLT Flights To Europe

Fri May 26, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 18):
Despite the city of Manchester only having a population of around 600,000 inhabitants, compared to cities like Madrid, Rome and Paris have populations of 2-3million people

That is little bit of understatement. Paris is in Europe in the same range with Moscow and London. All have learly or a little bit obove 10Million.
Madrid should be at 3.5.
Not sure about Rome.