Halibut
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Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 4:13 am

NAV20 saw this coming some time ago !

Gustav Humbert & Noel Forgeard at odds over A350 !


  


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...060518.IBAIRBUS18/TPStory/Business

AEROSPACE

'Crisis' talk spurs war of words at Airbus
German CEO blasts French predecessor
TIM HEPHER

Reuters News Agency

BERLIN -- Friction at the helm of Airbus SAS took a new twist yesterday as its first German boss implicitly rebuked the Frenchman who now runs parent EADS NV for saying the plane maker was in a "growth crisis."

The unusually outspoken response by Airbus chief executive officer Gustav Humbert reflected embarrassment inside the Boeing rival over comments by EADS co-CEO Noël Forgeard, who held Mr. Humbert's job until he was promoted last year.

Airbus has been trying in vain to keep a lid on proposed changes to its newest design, the twin-jet A350, until it is ready to go public with a blueprint designed to halt the runaway success of a rival Boeing Co. model, the 787 Dreamliner.



Halibut

[Edited 2006-05-18 21:15:23]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 4:30 am

Sounds like too many chiefs and not enough Indians. This is getting rediculous, when asked last year about the break-even point for the A380, four different Airbus executives gave four different answers. There is obvious inconsistancy and indecision going on.

Someone needs to dicate who will speak for the company and who will keep a lid on it, someone needs to draw a clear product strategy to avoid drifting with the A350, and someone needs to do this all while keeping the company ticker healthy.

Leahy and maybe Humbert to a lesser degree seem to have their heades on the most. I personally credit Leahy for making Airbus what it is. Leahy is also credited with seeing A350 V1 and V2 were not what customers wanted, well in advance of this month's revision announcement.

Why then can't he be granted more discretion in product strategy? Is the American sales boy not good enough to lead the helm?
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 4:32 am

So now it is in the press. About time. However, I have been saying this for a couple weeks now. The big question is who wins. Noel is the problem, and if he wins, which is likely, then that is very bad for Airbus.

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Airbus has been trying in vain to keep a lid on proposed changes to its newest design, the twin-jet A350, until it is ready to go public with a blueprint designed to halt the runaway success of a rival Boeing Co. model, the 787 Dreamliner.

This is going to be hard to do being that the airline execs have to see it. But it WILL be at Farnborough even if one of the top execs at Airbus is not. The Real 350 has to be unveiled before then or you will see large number of 787 orders.

I'm cheering for Gustav, because he is Airbus's best hope.
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Poitin
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Is the American sales boy not good enough to lead the helm?

Yeap. He is an American.


    Yesterday's exchanges marked the first public tiff between Mr. Forgeard, an extrovert former adviser to French President Jacques Chirac, and the down-to-earth engineer who replaced him.


This about sums it up. See what happens when you let a politican run a company?
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redflyer
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):
Noel is the problem, and if he wins, which is likely, then that is very bad for Airbus.



Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):
I'm cheering for Gustav, because he is Airbus's best hope.



Quoting Poitin (Reply 3):
This about sums it up. See what happens when you let a politican run a company?

You've hit the nail on the head, Poitin. Humbert needs to be given greater sway at Airbus. As an engineer, his approach to any decision -- or public comments -- is going to be more level-headed.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Leahy and maybe Humbert to a lesser degree seem to have their heades on the most.

Humbert and Leahy..."The Intellect and the Mouth". What a winning combination! (I'm being serious).
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deltadc9
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 4):
You've hit the nail on the head, Poitin. Humbert needs to be given greater sway at Airbus. As an engineer, his approach to any decision -- or public comments -- is going to be more level-headed.

I agree, let the Germans do what they have been doing as good or better than anyone else for almost 100 years, build excellent airplanes that meet the needs of the people who fly them.

They simply must find their way out of this analysis paralysis with the 350 and build the damn thing.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 4):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 3):
This about sums it up. See what happens when you let a politican run a company?

You've hit the nail on the head, Poitin. Humbert needs to be given greater sway at Airbus. As an engineer, his approach to any decision -- or public comments -- is going to be more level-headed.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Leahy and maybe Humbert to a lesser degree seem to have their heades on the most.

Humbert and Leahy..."The Intellect and the Mouth". What a winning combination! (I'm being serious).

I like Humbert a lot. I really want him to have real control of Airbus. As for Leahy, he does his job well and although it is fun to make fun of him, he is a excellent sales man.

The A380 and at least the first couple versions of the A380 is an example of Noel's lack of understanding of the business. He should go back to baiting George Bush. Politicians do not make engineers.

Someone noted on another thread the the Fat A350, this week's Airbus A350 du jour, was what the A380 should have been. That is very close to being 100% on the mark. The Fat A350, without the A380 to muddy its waters, would have been an excellent airplane a year ago. Had that happened we would all be worrying or rejoicing at the way Boeing lost its lead for good.
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deltadc9
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
Politicians do not make engineers.

And vice versa, re: Jimmy Carter....
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 7):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
Politicians do not make engineers.

And vice versa, re: Jimmy Carter....

Yeap. However, he was are nicest ex-President.
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atmx2000
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
The A380 and at least the first couple versions of the A380 is an example of Noel's lack of understanding of the business. He should go back to baiting George Bush. Politicians do not make engineers.

Condit was an engineer, and he caused problems for Boeing.

You need knowledge of engineering, business, sales and customer relations to be successful in running an aircraft manufacturer.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 7):
And vice versa, re: Jimmy Carter

I wouldn't make that claim if Carter is the only data point.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Yeap. However, he was are nicest ex-President.

He would be if he just stuck to Habitat.
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deltadc9
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
I wouldn't make that claim if Carter is the only data point.

Only, no, best example, yes

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
He would be if he just stuck to Habitat.

I agree, actually Nixon did great things after leaving office too, just not as publicly, and he never criticised any administration that followed. In this respect, Nixon had more class than Carter. Ironic and bizarre to say the least.

I think Airbuses high level squabbles will be just as ugly and inappropriate as Carter/Bush Jr..
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wingman
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 5:36 am

This internal battle is interesting indeed. I still cannot fathom how Airbus is going to tackle the 350 decision. Some people have said they'd keep the 358 but then have an alternative design for the higher capacity "versions". This plainly does not make any sense because it would be $4B to bring the current 358 design to market (the one with the 100 commitments) + an additional $8-10B to bring the "other wider all newer new" versions out. Any way you cut it you are either sticking to what you have fuselage width-wise or bringing out a whole new line, to do both is simply impossible IMO.

I think one thing is clear, the management structure at EADS/Airbus leaves much to be desired but I'm glad to see Mr. Humbert at Airbus. He seems to have a degree of humility and sophistication about him which has always eluded Foregard and Leahy.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

No.

Pls read the article. Halibut left out the content & thought just saying they are fighting would be better. It looks like it has nothing to do with the A350. The A350 is dragged in as an introduction by the journalist.

From what Humbert says it can be concluded he is for extending Airbus international footprint and reducing production costs (outsourcing). It looks like Forgeard had a different opinion on this earlier & Humbert is "happy" & "surprised" Forgeard sees it now as the way forward.

A "Tongue-In-Cheek" so to say

Seems Halibut needs only half a word, selects & leaves out the others..
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Halibut
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
From what Humbert says it can be concluded he is for extending Airbus international footprint and reducing production costs (outsourcing). It looks like Forgeard had a different opinion on this earlier & Humbert is "happy" & "surprised" Forgeard sees it now as the way forward.

Noooooo,
It was Humbert saying in a very diplomantic way that he was " Finally " able to penetrate Forgeard's thick scull with some logic for once !!!  idea 

Humbert is a class act & would not say anything directly derogatory toward anyone related to Airbus or for that matter , anyone in general !

If any kind of information regarding an internal conflict made it to the press . Then it is obvious that there are serious & intense battles taking place behind closed doors !

I see this as a plus for Humbert & Airbus as well . Humbert is standing up to Forgeard & it looks as though he won this one !

Way to go Gustav Humbert .

 bigthumbsup 

Halibut
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AApilot2b
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 6:31 am

Ok... in all fairness to Forgeard (even though I can't stand him), the rest of the article (which was not added in) seems to point out that the Frenchmen finally recognises the crisis Airbus is in. I don't know too much about Humbert yet, but I like the guy already. He seems like the right man for the job.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting AApilot2b (Reply 14):
He seems like the right man for the job.

Facinating guy actually, read up on him, it is worth the time.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
From what Humbert says it can be concluded he is for extending Airbus international footprint and reducing production costs (outsourcing). It looks like Forgeard had a different opinion on this earlier & Humbert is "happy" & "surprised" Forgeard sees it now as the way forward.

A "Tongue-In-Cheek" so to say

I think Keesje doesn't understand the gravamen of the article. The lead sentence of the article indicates Humbert is upset that Forgeard has publicly acknowledged/characterized Airbus as being in a "growth crisis." Humbert's "tongue-in-cheek" remark wasn't meant to express happiness and surprise that they're now in agreement, but rather contempt and digust that Forgeard should say anything at all when he was the primary cause of the problem.

[Edited 2006-05-18 23:54:46]

[Edited 2006-05-19 00:11:10]

[Edited 2006-05-19 00:15:38]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Halibut
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 6:51 am

Humbert is at odds with Forgeard because Noel's been constantly flapping his gums over the A350 for the passed 2 years . During that time the A350 has been changed or tweaked or what ever they did a number of time . Making Airbus look bad !!!

Gustav wants Forgeard to zip it up  ziplip  so Airbus will look more professional !

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Reuters News Agency

BERLIN -- Friction at the helm of Airbus SAS took a new twist yesterday as its first German boss implicitly rebuked the Frenchman who now runs parent EADS NV for saying the plane maker was in a "growth crisis."

The unusually outspoken response by Airbus chief executive officer Gustav Humbert reflected embarrassment inside the Boeing rival over comments by EADS co-CEO Noël Forgeard, who held Mr. Humbert's job until he was promoted last year.

Airbus has been trying in vain to keep a lid on proposed changes to its newest design, the twin-jet A350, until it is ready to go public with a blueprint designed to halt the runaway success of a rival Boeing Co. model, the 787 Dreamliner.



Remember this one ?

Forgeard : A350 totally new aircraft back in late 2005 !

Don't you think Airbus looks rather foolish after Noel 's " Most Advanced Aircraft of this Century " is DOA . Humbert wants Airbus to have a better image . The sooner Forgeard shuts his trap the better Airbus will look !

http://www.itp.net/business/features/details.php?id=3463&category=

揑f you look at two recent initiatives within the industry; the A350 and the 747-8 they are quite different. The A350 is a totally new aircraft ?totally new ?the wings are new, the fuselage is new and even the engines are new,?he claims resolutely. 揑t is the most modern aircraft of this century and we spent US$5.1 billion on its development. The 747-8 is not much different from the 747 ?it is just a little stretched ?that抯 it,?he adds.

Halibut
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LawnDart
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 7:29 am

How many of you personally know Mr. Forgeard or Mr. Humbert? And reading about them in the press does not count...

Keep in mind that Airbus made great strides under Forgeard. Did he make mistakes? What human doesn't? Are there disagreements at the top levels of Airbus? When more than one human is involved, what society doesn't have its share of disagreement?

The article appears to say that Forgeard is (maybe reluctantly) coming around to the fact that Airbus does need to advance the design of their aircraft, and especially the A350, to stay competitive. That can only be positive. If Humbert's response sounds like he's saying FINALLY!!!, he probably is.
 
TIA
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 7:44 am

Leave it to Halibut to start an Airbus bashing thread. It's getting old and it loses all credibility, even though the issue might have merit, if every day there is a new anti-Airbus thread by the same member.
 
Halibut
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 18):
How many of you personally know Mr. Forgeard or Mr. Humbert? And reading about them in the press does not count...

How Mr Forgeard carries himself while off the clock is irrelevant . It's what he says on the record that's doing great harm to Airbus's reputation .

Quoting TIA (Reply 19):
Leave it to Halibut to start an Airbus bashing thread. It's getting old and it loses all credibility, even though the issue might have merit, if every day there is a new anti-Airbus thread by the same member.

I'll admit , I lean slightly towards Boeing .  blush 

I am simply pointing out Airbus's PR problem . Did you not see my many positive comments of Mr Gustav Humbert ?

Halibut
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AvObserver
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 9:07 am

Many of you have likely seen the editorial in the current AW&ST, page 86, "Airbus and the A350:If At First You Don't Succeed", which basically blames Forgeard for much of Airbus's current woes. It's good to hear that Noel seems to realize his decisions were a big part of the problem. The company's apparent indecision on strategy of late seems to roughly parallel some of the problems Boeing had a few years ago under Phil Condit. The editorial criticizes too much focus on the A380 at the expense of other priorities and suggests that Airbus had better get the NEXT A350 redesign right or face grave consequences. It said Boeing's timing of the 787 was near spot-on with Airbus so far stymied about coming up with a viable competitor. Moreover, the A340 sales draught has left Airbus vulnerable across its mid-market range. And if that wasn't enough, the likely sooner than later replacement of the Boeing 737 will catch Airbus in the critical single-aisle market before they've enough resources freed from other programs like the new A350. This crisis is a stunning reversal of fortune from just 3 years ago when they seemed unbeatable. No doubt the new A350 family will eventually help turn this around at least somewhat but for now, Airbus's strategy is in a bit of disarray. They're hardly on the ropes but it does seem a number of worrisome missteps were made with Forgeard at the helm. As the editorial suggests, Humbert may indeed want to say to him:"You blew it, boss!"
 
11Bravo
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Halibut (Reply 20):
I am simply pointing out Airbus's PR problem .

It seems to me that's the real problem here. It's not so much Forgeard and Humbert as it is their failure to make their comments within the boundaries of a well managed, professional, cohesive, and focused public relations program.

That suggests to me that either Airbus corporate culture doesn't sufficiently include PR has a core component, or if they do, that the people running the PR shop are doing a poor job of making sure everybody knows what the corporate message is.

Either way Airbus has a serious case of Shoot-Your-Mouth-Off syndrome that they would be well served to eliminate.
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airfrnt
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 2):


So now it is in the press. About time. However, I have been saying this for a couple weeks now. The big question is who wins. Noel is the problem, and if he wins, which is likely, then that is very bad for Airbus.

I don't think Noel is neccessarily the problem, but I do think that he is very unlikely to survive the clearstream scandal.

People also need to remember that Leahy and Noel have been a package deal for quite a while. It was partially this combination that led to Airbus being where they are now. When Leahy was passed over for Airbus, the seeds were sown for some more fireworks.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 3):


This about sums it up. See what happens when you let a politican run a company?



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
Condit was an engineer, and he caused problems for Boeing.

Condit got where he was because he had a better engineer (Mullally) working for him.
 
abba
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 11:49 am

I still fail to see why it is a problem that there are discussions and fights going on within an organisation (occasionally leaking to the public). To have a strong man at the top - being chairman of the board and managing director at the same time - has in the past often proved to be less than ideal, in fact often disastrous. "Chaotic" organisations - even if they do not project an image of ununited we stand strong - are often much more dynamic and inventive.

Knowing that there is fighting going on in Airbus is to me encouraging - our best guarantee that they are not on their way to turn into an organisation like Boeing during the Condit years (that luckily seems now to be a thing of the past!)


Abba
 
NAV20
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 12:21 pm

Well spotted, Halibut - this story is definitely new information.

Quoting Abba (Reply 24):
I still fail to see why it is a problem that there are discussions and fights going on within an organisation (occasionally leaking to the public)

Rather breaks the first rule of effective PR, Abba - "If you have a problem, decide on the best solution and then announce the problem and the solution at the same time." Anything less than that and a company can, at the very least, expect a heavy run on its shares (which is happening with EADS shares at the moment).

The other interesting thing is that the way EADS is organised, it seems actually to have no machinery for making firm decisions, other than a general meeting of shareholders. The Board is split 50-50 German/French, there are two CEOs (Enders and Forgeard), and two Chairmen (one German, one French).

As far as I can see, this paragraph (from the EADS site) describes the only machinery for settling deadlocks:-

"In the event of a deadlock in the Board of Directors, other than a deadlock giving DaimlerChrysler the right to exercise the put option granted to it by SOGEADE (see “Part 2/3.3.2 Relationships with Principal Shareholders — Put Option”), the matter shall be referred to Arnaud Lagardère (or such person as shall be nominated by Lagardère) as representative of SOGEADE and to the chief executive officer of DaimlerChrysler. In the event that the matter in question, including a deadlock giving DaimlerChrysler the right to exercise the put option (but in this case with the agreement of SOGEPA and DaimlerChrysler) is a matter within the competence of the general meeting of EADS, a resolution on the issue shall be put to the general meeting, with the voting rights of SOGEADE, DaimlerChrysler and SEPI being negated."

Must admit, I can't fully decipher that. It seems absurdly complicated. But it looks as if Zetsche of Daimler-Chrysler and Arnaud Lagardere of Lagardere have to try to reach agreement, and if that isn't possible the matter has to go to a general meeting - at which anything could happen.

http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/1024...F00000000400004/6/03/31000036.html
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iwok
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 3:27 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
From what Humbert says it can be concluded he is for extending Airbus international footprint and reducing production costs (outsourcing). It looks like Forgeard had a different opinion on this earlier & Humbert is "happy" & "surprised" Forgeard sees it now as the way forward.

Humbert the man needed at the helm now. No matter how you suger coat this, its hard to see how Noel's betrayal of Airbus can be painted in any other light.

Quoting TIA (Reply 19):
Leave it to Halibut to start an Airbus bashing thread.

Its more of a Noel bashing thread... Its time for the old bugger to stand down and head off into the sunset. His work is done; its time for new leadership.


iwok
 
abba
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 25):
Must admit, I can't fully decipher that. It seems absurdly complicated. But it looks as if Zetsche of Daimler-Chrysler and Arnaud Lagardere of Lagardere have to try to reach agreement, and if that isn't possible the matter has to go to a general meeting - at which anything could happen

However, it still seems as if Airbus is able to react and make decisions in response to what happens in the world around them. And that is what matters!

This is exactly what Boeing failed to do during the years of Condit. During his time Boeing – sleepingly - allowed Airbus to become what it is today.

Rather give me a mad-house of dedicated engaged people than an CEO like Condit. The PR isn't important anyway in this context. It is more important for people producing consumer products etc. This business is so "small" in terms of actors that the general public matters very little (least of all us a-netters). It's not exactly us who purchase aircrafts! The few that really matters - the airline people placing orders - will know pretty much what is going on anyway. If Boeing is too good at PR I have a suggestion as to where Boeing can save some money!

Mind you - there are many big companies with a one-man leadership that had gone down either with a bang (like Enron) or withered away (more or less like IBM) than mad-houses like Airbus. A good leader is good - but sooner or later there will come a sleeper or a dishonest person and take it all down one way or another.

Abba
 
NAV20
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 5:07 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 27):
This business is so "small" in terms of actors that the general public matters very little (least of all us a-netters). It's not exactly us who purchase aircrafts! The few that really matters - the airline people placing orders - will know pretty much what is going on anyway.

Couldn't agree more, Abba. And, for that reason, it is important for any decisions to be taken quickly. The signs aren't good - if the evident disagreement/power struggle drags on until July, Airbus risks losing all credibility.

In that context, the item Halibut found seems to gell with some passages in the earlier Jim Wallace article about the A350 decision:-

"Airbus Chief Executive Gustav Humbert said the company was entering a stage when it would have to make a decision with its shareholders on how to proceed with development of the A350.

"The decision will be made on the basis of what is good for our customers, and what will make the project more profitable," he said.

"Forgeard said whatever decision is made must take into account how to finance any changes, but suggested the company would be able to take on significant costs. Aircraft makers typically sink billions into the development phase of large planes.

"Whatever we do it will be compatible with the financing capacity of Airbus," he said. "You know that Airbus has a very strong cash flow, so we have some margins in what we can offer."

"After a meeting between Airbus and the ministers of the European countries involved in the company, German representative Georg Wilhelm Adamowitsch said the possible redevelopment of the A350 was a main point of discussion, but that specifics on how it would be financed have not been finalized.

"If it (Airbus) decides that the A350 needs its specifications changed ... it will talk about any necessary expenditure first with the shareholders of Airbus and then in second process we will have a consultation before the summer break with the governments," Adamowitsch said."


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/270471_eadsearns17.html

Looks as if Forgeard and Humbert each think that the other guy should resign. But also that neither is willing to do so, even if it means taking the whole thing up with the shareholders (and with the 'governments', which are virtually the same thing) at a general meeting.
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abba
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 28):
Looks as if Forgeard and Humbert each think that the other guy should resign. But also that neither is willing to do so, even if it means taking the whole thing up with the shareholders (and with the 'governments', which are virtually the same thing) at a general meeting

As long as these two are fighting Airbus isn't faling asleep like Boeing during the years under Condit...

Airbus isn't loosing credibility because of that. SQ, EK and a few others keep waiting for Airbus to do what they beg them to do - even if from an economical perspective the 350 might be doing ok for Airbus.

Abba
 
Danny
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 6:33 pm

Congrats to Halibut - your anti-Airbus threads changed from weekly to daily routine. One thing I would agree with you though is that Airbus does need to clean up their PR area and send more consistent message to the public.
 
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 6:48 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 27):
Mind you - there are many big companies with a one-man leadership that had gone down either with a bang (like Enron) or withered away (more or less like IBM) than mad-houses like Airbus. A good leader is good - but sooner or later there will come a sleeper or a dishonest person and take it all down one way or another.

WOW.. hold on buddy, name one company that has more than one CEO beside Airbus and EADS. I am sure you would not come with many. IBM is still one of the largest computer company, but it has changed its focus from retail to business provider, because that's where the money is. You may not be able to find IBM brand in your house anymore, but it is still a big name in servers and IT consulting business.
Enron is one example of the bad one company, but the problem did not come necessarily from the fact it is a one CEO company. In fact the "creative" accounting idea came from its CFO not CEO.
There are tons of other companies with one man show that are still surviving and doing pretty well. No matter what organization you are running it is more efficient if you have only one head, but you need check and balance mechanism on it.
Two CEO company like Airbus and EADS is more often have problem, especially when the heads come from different background and representing different political priorities and needs. It is harder for the company to take a major turn in its basic philosophy, especially in Airbus and EADS case, there are too many different political and nationality difference among the stake holders, which can make the process like a legislation process, taking years to come of with a stupid rethorical law.

Cheers,
PP

[Edited 2006-05-19 12:08:03]
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glideslope
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 7:00 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
No.

Pls read the article. Halibut left out the content & thought just saying they are fighting would be better. It looks like it has nothing to do with the A350. The A350 is dragged in as an introduction by the journalist.

From what Humbert says it can be concluded he is for extending Airbus international footprint and reducing production costs (outsourcing). It looks like Forgeard had a different opinion on this earlier & Humbert is "happy" & "surprised" Forgeard sees it now as the way forward.

A "Tongue-In-Cheek" so to say

Seems Halibut needs only half a word, selects & leaves out the others..

What a Cheer Leader. Are you blind? Do you really think it will benefit global aviation if Airbus fails?

This has been going on for the last 2 years. Airbus needs to completely restructure, and they need it yesterday.

They function just like a large Government. They simply can't adjust to a market change fast enough. Although IMO, they really need to work on Market Forcasting as well.

Airbus is going the same way as the new Constitution for the EU. People need to acknowledge the fact that in reality everyone does not alway get the same size slice from the pie.

Get over it, and move forward with a Market Based approace to your Business Model.

 Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 7:01 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 30):
Congrats to Halibut - your anti-Airbus threads changed from weekly to daily routine

 bigthumbsup 

What he going to if Airbus ever goes bust and leaves him with nothing to talk about?  scratchchin 

Good point though Danny, maybe their PR needs to be a bit slicker.
 
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 27):
Mind you - there are many big companies with a one-man leadership that had gone down either with a bang (like Enron) or withered away (more or less like IBM) than mad-houses like Airbus

You must have a strange definition of "wither" as IBM is bigger than Airbus, and bigger than EADS and BAE combined.
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 7:38 pm

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 31):
name one company that has more than one CEO beside Airbus and EADS.

Pedants would point out that Airbus only has one CEO - Gustav Humbert.

EADS, which currently owns 80% of Airbus, has joint CEOs - Noel Forgeard and Tom Enders.
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leelaw
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 8:51 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 29):
s long as these two are fighting Airbus isn't faling asleep like Boeing during the years under Condit...

I'm not sure BCA was in a deep coma during the Condit era, after all, the programs driving Boeing's current revival in the commercial sector, the 773ER and the Dreamliner, were born and nurtured during Phil's tenure as CEO. Phil Condit is a convenient bogeyman just as Mr. Forgeard, but for the "defense procurement scandal" and some unfortunate personal pecadilloes, Condit would still be at the helm of Boeing.

[Edited 2006-05-19 14:19:52]
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trex8
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 8:56 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 10):
I agree, actually Nixon did great things after leaving office too, just not as publicly, and he never criticised any administration that followed. In this respect, Nixon had more class than Carter. Ironic and bizarre to say the least.

disgraced politicians who are forced from office frequently disappear and don't say much publicly about anything after they leave!
 
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 36):
m not sure BCA was in a deep coma during the Condit era, after all, the programs driving Boeing's current revival in the commercial sector, the 773ER and the Dreamliner, were born and nurtured during Phil's tenure as CEO

While you are quite correct about the products that were launched under his tenure, what disturbed me, as a shareholder, and I'm sure others, was Mr. Condit's micromanagement of BCA's sales staff, and his unwillingness to give them the flexibility to compete effectively with Airbus' own sales staff. JetBlue immediately comes to mind... His comments to the effect of "We will not sacrifice shareholder value for market-share" must have had the boys and girls in Toulouse popping champagne corks for many an evening.
While I agree with you that many fine programs were launched during his tenure, he alone was not responsible for them and dare I say, if he were still there, Boeing wouldn't be enjoying the success they are having now.

Regards,
Sal

[Edited 2006-05-19 14:53:03]
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art
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting TIA (Reply 19):
Leave it to Halibut to start an Airbus bashing thread. It's getting old and it loses all credibility, even though the issue might have merit, if every day there is a new anti-Airbus thread by the same member.

Come on now! Be realistic! It's not every day. Once or twice a week seems nearer the mark!  Wink
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting Halibut (Reply 17):
Don't you think Airbus looks rather foolish after Noel 's " Most Advanced Aircraft of this Century " is DOA . Humbert wants Airbus to have a better image . The sooner Forgeard shuts his trap the better Airbus will look !

Halibut vs Keesje......a strange parrallel to Humbert vs Foregeard......
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leelaw
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 38):
what disturbed me, as a shareholder, and I'm sure others, was Mr. Condit's micromanagement of BCA's sales staff, and his unwillingness to give them the flexibility to compete effectively with Airbus' own sales staff. JetBlue immediately comes to mind... His comments to the effect of "We will not sacrifice shareholder value for market-share" must have had the boys and girls in Toulouse popping champagne corks for many an evening.

Actually, it was the large institutional investors and "The Street" that demanded Boeing stop making very low yielding deals to preserve market share in the commercial sector, on the theory that Boeing's overall earnings would improve. IIRC, the were also a number of shareholder-derivative lawsuits objecting to this policy as well. You can fault Condit for his rather draconian implementation and less than deft execution of the the new sales strategy, but it was something that had to be done.
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 27):
Mind you - there are many big companies with a one-man leadership that had gone down either with a bang (like Enron) or withered away (more or less like IBM) than mad-houses like Airbus. A good leader is good - but sooner or later there will come a sleeper or a dishonest person and take it all down one way or another.

IBM has withered away? What crack are you smoking? Every next-generation game console (from Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo) has, at it's heart, tens or hundreds of dollars of IBM hardware inside. No matter which of those three companies win this battle, the real winner is IBM. It's like selling arms to both sides in a war.

And you obviously haven't set foot in a corporate datacenter lately, because if you had, then you probably wouldn't be talking out of your rear...lots of IBM gear and services there. Plus IBM's R&D division supplies technologies to tons of major companies, and they're #1 in patents on an annual basis. I suggest you stick to talking about aviation, and not IT.

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 31):
WOW.. hold on buddy, name one company that has more than one CEO beside Airbus and EADS. I am sure you would not come with many.

DaimlerChrysler (former DASA/Deutsche Airbus parent) had this arrangement for a while. You can see how well it worked for them.

They didn't ditch that arrangement until after EADS had adopted the co-CEO arrangement, so the EADS folks didn't have a chance to learn that lesson. Notice that both major DaimlerChrysler divisions are doing better now, and I chalk this up to the elimination of the hydra.

[Edited 2006-05-19 16:02:41]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Fri May 19, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 41):
Actually, it was the large institutional investors and "The Street" that demanded Boeing stop making very low yielding deals to preserve market share in the commercial sector, on the theory that Boeing's overall earnings would improve.

Lee, I very rarely disagree with you, but while your characterization of Wall Street's past mentality is correct, history showed this same mentality to be a mistake. Short term, quarter to quarter foresight simply doesn't work in this industry. Airbus' ascendancy to number one proved that. Sorry, but in my humble opinion, Condit had much to with it. A strong leader would have looked at a long term strategy for the company. Thankfully present management appears to have embraced this strategy. I think we can both agree on that. Wall Street seems to be very happy with Boeing's long term prospects.

[Edited 2006-05-19 17:01:35]
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leelaw
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Sat May 20, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 43):
Lee, I very rarely disagree with you

We'll have to agree to disagree this time, it makes life more interesting.  Smile I think Condit gets a bum rap on this one, he was between a rock and a hard place, you have to keep institutions and "The Street" happy, otherwise your sources of capital funding are quickly turned off. We're way off topic here, feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss further.

Regards,

Lee
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abba
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Sat May 20, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 42):
IBM has withered away? What crack are you smoking? Every next-generation game console (from Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo) has, at it's heart, tens or hundreds of dollars of IBM hardware inside. No matter which of those three companies win this battle, the real winner is IBM. It's like selling arms to both sides in a war.

Sure the IBM you see today is a strong and well run company that has found its new place and mission in the world. I don't know your age - but people of my age might still remember when IBM was the all dominant force in the IT world (you only wanted IBM compatible products!) and how they - for a long time - went into steady decline with a new business model once evey other year (introduced combined with large lay offs). However, this is a little off topic...

Abba
 
deltadc9
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Sat May 20, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 42):
Quoting Abba (Reply 27):
Mind you - there are many big companies with a one-man leadership that had gone down either with a bang (like Enron) or withered away (more or less like IBM) than mad-houses like Airbus. A good leader is good - but sooner or later there will come a sleeper or a dishonest person and take it all down one way or another.



Quoting N328KF (Reply 42):
And you obviously haven't set foot in a corporate datacenter lately, because if you had, then you probably wouldn't be talking out of your rear...lots of IBM gear and services there. Plus IBM's R&D division supplies technologies to tons of major companies, and they're #1 in patents on an annual basis. I suggest you stick to talking about aviation, and not IT.

Funny how people on this site make this comment a lot, that IBM is not what it used to be. PC's and Notebooks are not high profit items compared to their other business, so they ditched them and people think IBM is in trouble. Funny as hell.

Makes me wonder how accurate the predictions around here about Airbus's and Boeing are.

As for IBM:

They just surpassed Oracle to become the top provider in the databases arena again with Informix and DB2
Number 1 in the web server market
In the Linux Web Server market, they also maintain around 30% market share.
Their Rational product line is a major player in managing software development
Their blade servers are changing the game, biggest market share in network servers
IBM server factories are huge cash cows
Their business process outsourcing operation, IBM Global Services, is HUGE
Mainframes are still used in huge numbers
The AS/400 line killed DEC and is still king for that sector
They are number one in enterprise portals
Ever heard of Webshpere?
IBM is #1 in the amount of patents already granted, and also applies for more new patents each year than any other company in their LOB.
Annual revenue 96.3 billion, Net income 8.4 Billion, assets 110 Billion
329,000 Employees, TWICE as many as Boeing

Somehow I don't see a problem over there at Big Blue. One years income equals half the value of either Boeings or Airbuses backlog. IBM is at least twice as big as Boeing in all areas except export dollars I believe. I think a comparison to Airbus would provide similar results.

Back to the subject at hand, typically, when there is a hint of a internal dispute in the press, there is something really big going on behind closed doors.

We saw this with Boeing, they got past it. A good CEO has the power to take even the most tired and unsuccessful company and make it a major player, look at Hardees for an example, they are kicking BK's ass right now even though "Hardees sucks" use to be the universal response to any suggestion of going there.

Airbus has good products, good people, and a temporary but serious management problem. I think what Airbus only fans have to come to grips with is that they probably will get past this, but the word definitely has no place in this discussion.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Sat May 20, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting Abba (Reply 45):
I don't know your age - but people of my age might still remember when IBM was the all dominant force in the IT world (you only wanted IBM compatible products!) and how they - for a long time - went into steady decline with a new business model once evey other year (introduced combined with large lay offs).

They still are a dominant force. Just because you don't see their name on things in your house or at your store doesn't mean they don't have a hand in the pie. How many people see the name "Texas Instruments" in stores anymore, other than the calculator aisle? That doesn't show the fact that TI has a huge hand in electronics as we know it.

Anyhow, I agree — Airbus needs to clean a little house. If they need power sharing, then make sure EADS is run by a Frenchman, and that Airbus is run by a German, or vice-versa as necessary. The other thing is that they are still a political animal...all decisions have to keep in mind both labor and government sensitivies. This is a problem that Boeing does not have, or at least not to the same degree. And a few years ago, everyone thought that Airbus was the more nimble competitor.

[Edited 2006-05-19 18:07:22]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
deltadc9
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Sat May 20, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Abba (Reply 45):
- went into steady decline with a new business model once evey other year (introduced combined with large lay offs).

Not accurate. But it is too off topic to bother correcting, but I will give you a hint.

It involves engineers, and a plane crash.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
jacobin777
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RE: Airbus-Forgeard & Humbert Fighting Over A350!

Sat May 20, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 43):
Lee, I very rarely disagree with you, but while your characterization of Wall Street's past mentality is correct, history showed this same mentality to be a mistake. Short term, quarter to quarter foresight simply doesn't work in this industry. Airbus' ascendancy to number one proved that. Sorry, but in my humble opinion, Condit had much to with it. A strong leader would have looked at a long term strategy for the company. Thankfully present management appears to have embraced this strategy. I think we can both agree on that. Wall Street seems to be very happy with Boeing's long term prospects.



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 44):
I think Condit gets a bum rap on this one, he was between a rock and a hard place, you have to keep institutions and "The Street" happy, otherwise your sources of capital funding are quickly turned off. We're way off topic here, feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss further.

I'm going to agree with USAF336TFS here....I was much disappointed in the way Condit ran Boeing, and granted "The Street" needs to be happy for capital funding, they are one of THE LEAST people who have a clue with "long-term vision"....I remember just a couple of years ago, they were telling Motorola to dump their cell phone unit...look where they are now...with former Sun Microsystem Executive Ed Zander as Motorola's Chairman, Motorola's direction, profits, as well as stock has done very well..certainly better than its next biggest competitor...Nokia....

Though Harry Stonecipher got caught with his pants down, he did a very good job in directing Boeing to where it is today.....yes Condit did do some good things while at Boeing, but at the end of the day, he was too slow and too conservative and let Airbus come from 15%-20% of the market in 1993-1994 to where it is today....shame, shame, shame.... no 
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