bhxdtw
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When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 6:17 pm

Hi,
Was just wondering if anyone had an update on the situation between US carriers and LHR...
I know currently only 2 British n 2 American carriers can serve LHR from the US but hasnt their been some talk of LHR opening up to DL/CO/NW/US at some point ?
Personally I think it unfair that whilst airlines such as AI can fly onwards from LHR to the US, the likes of DL and CO cant..
Any chance this will one day be reversed ? Also is SQ still chasing rights to fly onwards from LHR ??

Joe
 
aircanada014
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 7:12 pm

No chance for CO, DL and NW flying to LHR. I can't see it happens
 
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nighthawk
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 8:17 pm

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 1):
No chance for CO, DL and NW flying to LHR. I can't see it happens

It will happen eventually. The EU is pushing for an open skies agreement, eventually they will strike up a deal that everyone agrees on, full access to LHR will be part of that deal.
 
gkirk
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 8:23 pm

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 2):
It will happen eventually. The EU is pushing for an open skies agreement, eventually they will strike up a deal that everyone agrees on, full access to LHR will be part of that deal.

Myabe so, but the only slots they'll get will be crap one's, if any at all.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Danny
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 8:23 pm

Wasn't it CO that opposed Open Sky agreement with EU so fiercely?
 
BCAL
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 8:32 pm

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 2):
It will happen eventually. The EU is pushing for an open skies agreement, eventually they will strike up a deal that everyone agrees on, full access to LHR will be part of that deal.

I cannot see this happening. As part of the deal, UK and other European airlines will want cabotage rights within the US, which is very unlikely to be granted. Full access to LHR (assuming that slot availability can be overcome) is the ace that the UK holds. Once they open up LHR, this will be lost forever.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
UAL777UK
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 9:24 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 3):
Myabe so, but the only slots they'll get will be crap one's, if any at all.

Exactly!

If these guys think with open skies they will get the slots they want at favourable times then they are kidding themselves.
 
Danny
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 9:25 pm

They can buy slots from other airlines.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 6):
If these guys think with open skies they will get the slots they want at favourable times then they are kidding themselves.

If they are prepared to pay for them they will soon get decent enough slots.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 5):
I cannot see this happening. As part of the deal, UK and other European airlines will want cabotage rights within the US, which is very unlikely to be granted. Full access to LHR (assuming that slot availability can be overcome) is the ace that the UK holds. Once they open up LHR, this will be lost forever.

Yea, cabotage rights are part of the current deal, but if this fails they will soon hash out a new deal, and you can bet your ass access to LHR will be part of that.

To say it will never happen is just crazy, one day it will happen, it may be 5, 10 or 50 years down the line, but it is enevitable.
 
britannia191a
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 9:41 pm

I wish to keep this statement simple and any comments keep within the point of the comment but this agreement whereby only select routes and airlines can use LHR to the US, would ther be an arguement that if one of these airlines wants to fly the airbus A380 to and from the US, they could say you are stopping us from doing that. Ill give an example

Delta flies LGW to ATL and cannot fly LHR to ATL. Lets say Delta wanted to buy an A380 (dont start discussions around this) and lets say ATL is A380 approved and LGW isnt. Could DL have a case whereby they say that this agreement is preventing us from flying the route because LGW is not A380 approved. Just a thought for discussion but please keep to the point of what I am trying to say. I think this opens this question for other airports whereby they are allocated slots and route but the A380 prevents them from flying from their normal local airport.
 
IADLHR
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 9:47 pm

Now that the KL/AF merger is going so well financially, BA is at risk for becoming, over time, a marginal player in the EU. It wont happen overnight but it could easily happen if BA/AA does not get ATI from the USA and probably even merge with IB. To keep up with the changing airline landscape in the EU. BA most likley will want to merge. By merging with IB it will give them another airport so they can move some excess capacity to MAD which will open some slots at LHR.

As Spain and the UK have air treaties with the US, any merger would require approval from the US.

You can be absolutely certain and can bet the farm that for this to happen the US would absolutely require openkies at LHR including slots and terminal facilities for all US carriers.Frankly, all of this, I believe, will happen much, much sooner than later. Most likely in the next few years.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 8):
If they are prepared to pay for them they will soon get decent enough slots

True enough but another point is are they in a position to pay for those slots?
 
gkirk
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 11):
True enough but another point is are they in a position to pay for those slots?

CO and US may be, but DL and NW are not.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
bhxdtw
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 10:27 pm

If anything, I think CO would be first to apply for slots if they were allowed too.. in fact I would imagine they would still keep regular service into LGW and just supplement it with a daily service into LHR to EWR and IAH..
The only carriers into EWR from LHR is VS n BA at the moment... though having said that, I doubt CO would want to ruffle VS's feathers on that route.
LHR-IAH on the other hand though could be ideal as CO already compete with BA on the LGW-IAH route and no one serves IAH from LHR...

(of course if PK ever want to fly from England to IAH, maybe they would use LHR ?)
 
sparkingwave
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 8):
To say it will never happen is just crazy, one day it will happen, it may be 5, 10 or 50 years down the line, but it is enevitable.

Well, so far it's been over 60 years. I'm not going to hold my breath. Bermuda II will probably be around to stay for quite a while longer, as it's the only card the British have to hold off the Americans...

SparkingWave ~~~
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 12):
CO and US may be, but DL and NW are not.

World Traveler and the Delta lovers on here would probably say that Delta has billions and will open their own terminal at Heathrow.. wink 
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 10:36 pm

BA and VS have it too good to give up anything. You can't really blame them.

The UK consumer will just continue to pay a higher premium due to the lack of competition.

If you'd like a good example of this. Check how Lufthansa and Airfrance have grown over the last two decades in comparison to BA. Check the growth of FRA and CDG in comparison to LON traffic.

The UK made a choice and now they can live with. Less growth, less global trade, less aviation business. Higher prices.

About the only competition between BA and VS is to see who's F class toilet paper is the fanciest..LOL
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 11:19 pm

"Delta flies LGW to ATL and cannot fly LHR to ATL. Lets say Delta wanted to buy an A380 (dont start discussions around this) and lets say ATL is A380 approved and LGW isnt. Could DL have a case whereby they say that this agreement is preventing us from flying the route because LGW is not A380 approved. Just a thought for discussion but please keep to the point of what I am trying to say. I think this opens this question for other airports whereby they are allocated slots and route but the A380 prevents them from flying from their normal local airport."

Actually, ATL isn't and won't be A380 ready. No need to worry about the folks on the other side of the pond with that one.

PJ
 
BCAL
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 16):
BA and VS have it too good to give up anything

Granted they have a "jewel in a crown" but are not AA and UA in the same position (in fact a better position bearing in mind that they can take passengers beyond their hubs in the US)?

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 16):
The UK consumer will just continue to pay a higher premium due to the lack of competition

Apart from full-fares in business/first class (and how many people actually pay the full-fare?) competition between the carriers on this route keeps the fares artificially low. In fact a French or Italian could find it cheaper to fly BA in Y via LHR than direct from CDG or FCO. Besides, what about Air India and Kuwait Airways who can also fly LHR-JFK? I have heard a rumour that due to fierce competition on the LHR-JFK/EWR route and the airlines chasing for the same passengers with low fares, LHR-YYZ is more profitable for BA.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 16):
Check how Lufthansa and Airfrance have grown over the last two decades in comparison to BA. Check the growth of FRA and CDG in comparison to LON traffic

You are forgetting that LHR and LGW are surrounded by built-up areas and therefore (apart from massive compulsory purchase of land/homes, not to mention all the Public Hearings that would follow) have no room for expansion like CDG or FRA. And how exactly have Lufthansa and Air France outgrown BA, apart from their merger with/takeover of KLM and Swiss?
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
BigGSFO
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Fri May 19, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 17):
Delta flies LGW to ATL and cannot fly LHR to ATL. Lets say Delta wanted to buy an A380 (dont start discussions around this) and lets say ATL is A380 approved and LGW isnt. Could DL have a case whereby they say that this agreement is preventing us from flying the route because LGW is not A380 approved. Just a thought for discussion but please keep to the point of what I am trying to say. I think this opens this question for other airports whereby they are allocated slots and route but the A380 prevents them from flying from their normal local airport."

Actually, ATL isn't and won't be A380 ready. No need to worry about the folks on the other side of the pond with that one.

I seriously doubt B2 will be amended to allow access based on aircraft type.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 18):
Granted they have a "jewel in a crown" but are not AA and UA in the same position (in fact a better position bearing in mind that they can take passengers beyond their hubs in the US)?

Glen Tilton the CEO of UA is on the record for saying he wants open skies to open up the competition, not least so that they can add routes such as DEN-LHR.
 
captaink
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 1):
No chance for CO, DL and NW flying to LHR. I can't see it happens

So does that mean that US has a chance, cuase you failed to include them. I could imagine that US would do well on a PHL/LHR run.
There is something special about planes....
 
kangarooman
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 8:46 am

Hi BHXDTW

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 13):
(of course if PK ever want to fly from England to IAH, maybe they would use LHR ?)

Just a little FYI for ya if you didn't know they already do here from 'the biggest PK hub outside of pakistan' MAN they fly the route with 742's

Roo
A/C Flown EI 146&320, MYT 763&333, WW 733&735, AZ 319&MD80, LS 146, FR 738, 2L F100, LX 320&321, A3 RJ100, FI 752 AB 738
 
commavia
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 9:34 am

I doubt it will happen this year, as it's an election year in the U.S. If they get the deal done by the end of 2007, I'll be surprised. If they get it done by the end of 2006, I'll be shocked. The idiots in Congress are too busy listening to stupid, tired, has-been protectionist pleas from a multitude of lobbies, ranging from labor unions to the Defense Department to, strangely, Continental Airlines, telling them that the U.S. will be irreperably harmed by signing this liberalized bilateral with the E.U., which will lead to enormous new opportunities for U.S. carriers and their employees. It's absolutely pothetic, but it's reality.

The ironic part is that the U.S. side has basically gotten every single thing it wanted from the E.U. -- the Europeans caved on virtually everything. They gave up the guarantee of direct cabotage within the U.S. and gave up the demand that 'Fly USA' end. The U.S. would not be a complete winner in the deal, either, though, as the U.S. had to give up its primary demand relating to Heathrow that airlines already there be forced to give up slots so new U.S. carriers could fly there. The U.K. won on that round and refused. Nonetheless, this is definitely the best deal that the two sides have been able to work out in years, and the U.S. should take it while it's still on the table.

Unfortunately, until the spineless morons in Congress are willing to let up on the administration's proposal to loosen ownership rules on U.S. carriers, which would conceivably be a precursor to any deal being signed, there won't be any movement on the new U.S.-E.U. bilateral.
 
jacobin777
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 16):

If you'd like a good example of this. Check how Lufthansa and Airfrance have grown over the last two decades in comparison to BA. Check the growth of FRA and CDG in comparison to LON traffic.

LH control about between 60-80% of all slots at FRA.....while I don't know what percentage of slots AF owns at CDG, its quite high...where as BA only control 40% of slots in one of the fiercest airports in the world.......LHR...BA has done a very good job defending themselves...though I think their move out of Saudi Arabia was asinine (probably union related)..I see the "security" issue as rubbish as BD is actually increasing C class seats on its LHR-RUH route (as well as LHR-JED starting).....regardless...BA is doing quite well...

fair use excerpt:

"British Airways 4Q Profit Soars to $151M

Fri May 19, 4:56 PM ET

LONDON - British Airways PLC reported a leap in fourth-quarter profit Friday after higher ticket prices and demand for flights outweighed a sharply higher fuel bill. Shares in the carrier soared as it also raised its revenue guidance for the current financial year.

BA said net profit for the three months to March 31 came to 80 million pounds ($151 million) from just 1 million pounds a year earlier.

The airline's pretax profit for the quarter of 91 million pounds ($171 million) was well ahead of the 51 million pounds ($96 million) expected by analysts.

Revenue rose 13 percent to 2.1 billion pounds ($4 billion) on higher-margin premium traffic and ticket surcharges."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060519/...ge/earns_britain_british_airways_1
"Up the Irons!"
 
vv701
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 10):
You can be absolutely certain and can bet the farm that for this to happen the US would absolutely require openkies

The facts - and not the hyperbole - are that the EU and UK are asking for Open Skies and this is being resisted by CO and the US Congress. The UK recently signed an Open Skies agreement with Canada. The same agreement is on the table for the US to sign but they will not.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 16):
The UK consumer will just continue to pay a higher premium due to the lack of competition.

Can you support this? I think not? I chose LHR-LAS. I chose out 7 July, back a week later. I found on the British Airways web site that the lowest all-inclusive fare was £320. Then I went to the Delta web site. I chose the same dates. I chose JFK-LAX (which is slightly more than half the distance of LHR-LAX. The lowest all-inclusive fare was $573. Now £320 is almost exactly $600. So the poor US consumer is paying almost as much for a lot less. If this is typical of UK value against high US prices I can understand why Conress is resisting Open Skies.

By the way I first flew the LHR-LAX route with my family in 1981 and we paid £284 each in March, the low season. That fare was exclusive (because in those days there were no UK taxes on flights). I flew out by TW home by BA because that was the best deal. That fare from more than a quarter of a century ago is effectively more than BA would charge in my high season example today!

Quoting BCAL (Reply 18):
You are forgetting that LHR and LGW are surrounded by built-up areas

This is not true for LGW with both approaches (from east and west) being over open countryside. Only the LHR approach from the east into the prevailing westerly winds is over heavily built up areas.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
The ironic part is that the U.S. side has basically gotten every single thing it wanted from the E.U. -- the Europeans caved on virtually everything. They gave up the guarantee of direct cabotage within the U.S.

This means, of course, that the EU and UK have already given up on getting a true Open Skies agreement with the US. If an agreement is signed UA will continue to be able to operate HNL-LAX-LHR and SFO-LAX-LHR. European airlines will be forbidden from competing directly with them.
 
moose1226
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
gave up the demand that 'Fly USA' end.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is 'Fly USA'?
 
vv701
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting Moose1226 (Reply 26):
Pardon my ignorance, but what is 'Fly USA'?

Federal employees (including members of the armed forces) must fly on a US airline whenever possible. There are no such restrictions on, for example, UK government employees. So, for example Prime Minister Tony Blair flew to South Africa earlier this year on a hired Swiss DC-8 VIP aircraft. But it went tech in JNB and he had to slum it back on a BA 744!
 
commavia
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 25):
This means, of course, that the EU and UK have already given up on getting a true Open Skies agreement with the US. If an agreement is signed UA will continue to be able to operate HNL-LAX-LHR and SFO-LAX-LHR. European airlines will be forbidden from competing directly with them.

Well, let's be honest, everyone knew that demand was never going to happen. Had the Europeans kept up the stance that it was full cabotage, or no deal, the U.S. would have happily told the Europeans where to go. As the U.S. does not recognize the E.U. as a single nation for bilateral civil aviation purposes, the U.S. would never agree to give the E.U. carriers access to the vast U.S. domestic market when it did not recognize its own carriers as having the same right in Europe -- United can fly LHR-FRA, but it can't fly LHR-MAN. In addition, that deal was also a complete non-starter from the beginning since the U.S. trading away access to the U.S. domestic market, which is vastly larger and more valuable than the E.U. internal market, is a completely unfair trade, especially since, to my knowledge, not a single major U.S. carrier even uses rights for flights within the E.U. anymore. The last vestige of that old mostly Pan Am/TWA tradition ended when United canned its last LHR-AMS/BRU flights after 9/11. Now, U.S. carriers don't even have flights within European anymore, nor do they want them, as it would be a waste when European markets are increasingly being linked directly with major U.S. hubs, and overflying traditional European hubs like LHR, CDG, FRA, etc.
 
boeingguy1
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 12:29 pm

Pardon my ignorance... whats the diffrence flying between LHR and LGW? They both have ample transportation facilities to/fro london.
Gatwick South! Id rather crash in Brighton!
 
atmx2000
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 10):
Now that the KL/AF merger is going so well financially, BA is at risk for becoming, over time, a marginal player in the EU. It wont happen overnight but it could easily happen if BA/AA does not get ATI from the USA and probably even merge with IB. To keep up with the changing airline landscape in the EU. BA most likley will want to merge. By merging with IB it will give them another airport so they can move some excess capacity to MAD which will open some slots at LHR.

As Spain and the UK have air treaties with the US, any merger would require approval from the US.

You can be absolutely certain and can bet the farm that for this to happen the US would absolutely require openkies at LHR including slots and terminal facilities for all US carriers.Frankly, all of this, I believe, will happen much, much sooner than later. Most likely in the next few years.

This has been speculated on before. Given LH's and AF's acquisition activity in Europe, I wonder how long BA can stay out of the game. I wonder if they have been avoiding doing anything because they know that the US is not going to approve such a merger without more US access to LHR.

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 13):
The only carriers into EWR from LHR is VS n BA at the moment... though having said that, I doubt CO would want to ruffle VS's feathers on that route.

They've made a fuss about the Virgin Group's other ventures (Virgin America and Nigeria), so I don't see why not. They would rather fly on their own metal, from their own hub. The only reason to codeshare with VS is because they would lose traffic if they didn't have access to LHR.

Quoting BCAL (Reply 18):
Granted they have a "jewel in a crown" but are not AA and UA in the same position (in fact a better position bearing in mind that they can take passengers beyond their hubs in the US)?

US airlines have limited beyond rights from the UK. They can fly 5th freedom traffic to a limited number of European cities from the UK, but those rights are not used in this era of alliances. UK airlines can take traffic from Europe, Asia and Africa through LHR to the US. BA, with its access to many US cities from its LHR hub, is in a strong position to offer hub service to the US for non-UK passengers.

Quoting Boeingguy1 (Reply 29):
Pardon my ignorance... whats the diffrence flying between LHR and LGW? They both have ample transportation facilities to/fro london.

More London area and southern England O&D traffic is situated closer to LHR.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
viscount630
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 1:40 pm

Highly unlikely - there's simply not the spare capacity, either on the runways, by way of slots, or in the Terminals by way of floorspace!
RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
 
scotron11
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 1:57 pm

A few months back, Delta stated that one of their priorities was getting access to LHR as part of their international expansion. As to the question of slots, they were confident of getting them from their SkyTeam partner AF.

Of course, the biggest beneficiary of open access to LHR would be Star. Then again, would AF or LH want to operate LHR-US flights? Or BA xFRA or CDG?
 
COSPN
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 2:01 pm

"Pardon my ignorance... whats the diffrence flying between LHR and LGW? They both have ample transportation facilities to/fro london."

Almost ZERO onward connections at LGW all at LHR if one is Goint to or From London Both AIrports are OK...

DanAir used to be a LGW airline that CO and Others could Conect Pax to Europe...BA bought them and Shut them down...no flights are Offered for connection to CDG, AMS, ....other former DanAir routes

ALso LGW has only 1 Runway !!!! Most UK Citizens like LGW beacuse better roads and parking...but Americans prefer LHR for Local and connection..

Hope to see LHR "open up" dont worry about Slots CO will figure something out..Just give CO and other US airlines LHR access...they have been locked out way too long...
 
apodino
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 2:56 pm

I personally hope this never happens. As a traveller who has used both LGW and LHR, I find that I like LGW a lot better. Its easier to get in and out of, its not as congested, the terminals are simpler, and I like the Gatwick Express into Victoria. If airlines started going into LHR, that would mean no opportunities to fly into LGW, which would make me a little sad.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 33):
ALso LGW has only 1 Runway !!!! Most UK Citizens like LGW beacuse better roads and parking...but Americans prefer LHR for Local and connection..

One time I flew DL from ATL into LGW, then I flew BA from LHR-TXL later that day. I had absolutely no problems getting from LGW to LHR. Not saying its preffered by most travellers, but it is still possible. And as far as onward connections go, wouldn't this only affect American with the OneWorld alliance. Cause the skyteam airlines would send their pax through CDG, AMS, or FCO and the Star Airlines would send their PAX through FRA, which have ample connections themselves, and without all the hastles of Heathrow.



I am american and I prefer LGW. And you say LGW only has 1 runway. Heathrow only has 2.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 20):
Glen Tilton the CEO of UA is on the record for saying he wants open skies to open up the competition, not least so that they can add routes such as DEN-LHR.

To borrow a quote from the Wright Amendment debate. UA is already free to fly to London from Denver, into LGW. AA recognized this from DFW, and I think UA should jump on board personally. They are the only US carrier in London not to serve LGW, which gives a good upperhand on the O and D traffic to the other carriers in my opinion.
 
masseybrown
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 3:51 pm

On the subject of cabotage, what exactly is the EU seeking? Are US domestic traffic rights subject to a long haul restriction acceptable to the EU negotiators, or are they looking for unrestricted rights?

By long haul restriction I mean a condition stating that any flight between US domestic points must begin or end in the airline's home nation or something similar.
 
BCAL
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 4:17 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 25):
This is not true for LGW

LGW is not surrounded by built-up areas as much as LHR, but their expansion is restricted by the fact that it has a single runway and it is restricted to a single runway until 2019 by an agreement with the council with jurisdiction over the land. Even when the second runway will be built, this will mean that an entire village will have to be demolished.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 33):
Almost ZERO onward connections at LGW

The last time I looked there was BA Euro Gatwick offering onward connections to many European destinations, plus Manchester, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Then there is U2 who offers 44 destinations from LGW plus FR with flights to four Irish airports, flybe and ZB each with 4-5 destinations not to mention numerous European airlines who have services to LGW from their hubs. In fact, the only major European destinations that are not served from LGW are Paris and Scandanavia.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
HanginOut
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sat May 20, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 32):
Of course, the biggest beneficiary of open access to LHR would be Star. Then again, would AF or LH want to operate LHR-US flights? Or BA xFRA or CDG?

Star could be a beneficiary, but all lot will depend on what happens with BMI. Does Bishop force Lufthansa and SAS to buy him out or will he continue to hold out? If Lufthansa and SAS acquire BMI, they could turn LHR into a real Star hub by running their operations from there and could probably make a fortune leasing/selling slots that they don't need to other airlines.
Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
 
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STT757
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sun May 21, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 13):
The only carriers into EWR from LHR is VS n BA at the moment... though having said that, I doubt CO would want to ruffle VS's feathers on that route.
LHR-IAH on the other hand though could be ideal as CO already compete with BA on the LGW-IAH route and no one serves IAH from LHR...

CO wants 6 daily EWR-LHR slots, if they have access to Heathrow they don't need VS.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
SESGDL
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sun May 21, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 15):
World Traveler and the Delta lovers on here would probably say that Delta has billions and will open their own terminal at Heathrow.. wink

And MalpensaSFO and the Delta haters on here will continue to speak their ignorance about DL and everything that regards DL.  Wink

Jeremy
 
cf6ppe
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sun May 21, 2006 11:46 am

Can someone who has done the LHR to LGW plane/airport (change) shuffle elaborate on the steps a US passported traveler goes through when arriving to LHR from (for example) Asian or African origination and the US bound flight departs LGW for a US destination (for example - DFW)..??

Or making the reverse (LGW to LHR) shuffle...??

Acquaintances have described the shuffle between LGW and LHR as painful at best, especially when the inbound and outbound flights are 9-11+ hours duration.

Other acquaintances tell me that they avoid the LGW/LHR shuffle by using AMS or other european airports.
 
apodino
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sun May 21, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting Cf6ppe (Reply 40):
Can someone who has done the LHR to LGW plane/airport (change) shuffle elaborate on the steps a US passported traveler goes through when arriving to LHR from (for example) Asian or African origination and the US bound flight departs LGW for a US destination (for example - DFW)..??

Or making the reverse (LGW to LHR) shuffle...??

Be more than happy to. As you may be well aware, all US passport holders have to fill out a landing card upon arrival into the UK. Basically what I did was filled out the landing card, but where it said address, I simply wrote transfer. I then cleared Customs in the UK as normal as if it were my destination. They put the usual stamp in my passport for the six month leave to enter. Most people would then take a bus to LHR, but I took the rail into Victoria, then the tube out to LHR. I then checked in as if it were my origin.

To make a long story short, if you are changing airports, you have to clear customs.
 
COSPN
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sun May 21, 2006 4:51 pm

Are you then Exempted from the USD 100 UK Depature TAX ????
 
hjulicher
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sun May 21, 2006 5:44 pm

It doesn't really make sense to me why LHR is so desirable for CO, NW, DL, and US. I mean, there's really no need for them to fly into LHR. I would also imagine that LGW is cheaper in terms of fees, and it probably has equally good connections into the city. There is no reason why these airlines would want to connect their passengers in LHR when they already have their other respective hubs.
1) For NW, AMS is like 40 mins from LON. Why hassle with LON when in AMS the facilities are better and there are more runways, and everyone speaks english. Let NW continue their flight to LGW for purely O/D passengers in London. Plus those passengers have full access to NW connections when arriving into the US.
2) DL has CDG with AF. Understanably CDG isn't the best airport, but why would it make sense for DL to hub out of LHR?
3) US is sort of in the same position as CO. They have alliance partners, but they don't have the best alliance set-up. Nevertheless, who would they HUB with in LHR again?

For O/D passengers, what difference does it make if you fly into LHR or LGW. Why is it so essential for the airlines to serve into LHR? I would think the opposite? It's actually more of a BA problem because they have restrictions to which airports they can serve from LON, so some of their flights, like the MCO one have to be routed through LGW even though all the connections are at LHR.
LH 442
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Sun May 21, 2006 6:31 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 15):
World Traveler and the Delta lovers on here would probably say that Delta has billions and will open their own terminal at Heathrow..

All the terminals at LHR are owned by the BAA, who allocate gates. In Europe airlines do not own terminals and gates.
So DL could never own their own terminal at LHR.
T5 is owned by the BAA. BA has an agreement for sole use but does not own the facility.
 
vv701
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Tue May 23, 2006 12:28 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 28):
since the U.S. trading away access to the U.S. domestic market, which is vastly larger and more valuable than the E.U. internal market, is a completely unfair trade

I do not disagree. But is it not therefore ironic that UA already has some access to the EU internal market (like LHR-FRA) even though they do not use it. So as a starting point if a US airline already had those rights - as it did - you have two choices for your opening gambit. You either ask for equivalent rights for European airlines in the US or you ask that these existing rights of US airlines are taken away. This second option does not jibe well when you are meant to be negotiating 'Open Skies'.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 35):
On the subject of cabotage, what exactly is the EU seeking?

Now it is seeking nothing because cabotage is no longer on the EU negotiating agenda. It was - see above. And, as I have said before, if UA operate HNL-LAX-LHR today it cannot be called 'Open Skies' if they are allowed to continue that service but European airlines cannot offer the same service.

Please do not interpret this as meaning I disapprove of this UA service if BA, BD or VS are not permitted to operate a competitive service. What is a little annoying is those Americans who go on and on about the importance of 'Open Skies' but then over vigorously defend their country's legitimate right not to sign a 'Open Skies' agreement while still pretending it is what they want.
 
gigneil
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Tue May 23, 2006 12:38 pm

Open skies will not fabricate new slots.

N
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Tue May 23, 2006 2:33 pm

I havent been to the city of London yet but whats the real difference between LGW and LHR. It's not like they can't fly to London. Is there something that I am missing.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
scotron11
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Tue May 23, 2006 3:31 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 47):

I havent been to the city of London yet but whats the real difference between LGW and LHR.

Other than the fact the LHR is a lousy airport, the connection traffic is tremendous. Distance wise from London, LHR is closer.
 
BCAL
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RE: When Will LHR Open Up To DL/NW/US Etc

Tue May 23, 2006 5:23 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 47):
I havent been to the city of London yet but whats the real difference between LGW and LHR.

LHR is regarded as the main airport for London and handles far more traffic, particularly international traffic, than LGW. It is the main hub for BA and BD, and many of the world's leading airlines offer services to/from LHR but not from LGW. Apart from intercontinental services by the world's major airlines, there are many onward connections from LHR to European cities, and some domestic services - principally MAN, GLA and EDI (BA), Ireland (Aer Lingus and BD). It is nearer to the centre of London than LGW, but the motorway linking the airport to the city, the M4, is often gridlocked so it can take longer to reach LHR by car. LHR is also served by a dedicated overland rail link from Paddington, and it is at the end of the Piccadilly line on the London Underground.

LGW is the secondary airport for London and, unfortunately, is still associated with bucket-and-spade tourists since before the 1970s charter traffic formed the bulk of movements at the airport. Schedule services took off from the 1970s when the British independent airlines, notably British Caledonian (BCal), Laker, and Dan-Air, established networks from LGW. They were soon joined by European airlines, some of whom supplemented their services to LHR with LGW in view of the better links with the centre of London. The US airlines who could not fly into LHR also opened routes to LGW - first CO, then DL (plus AA on their Raleigh-Durham route which they could not operate to/from LHR) and then the predecessors for US Airways. Peoplexpress and Air Florida also operated to/from LGW, as did Cathay Pacific and Virgin Atlantic before they were granted access to LHR. By the end of the 1970s, scheduled traffic at LGW was greater than charter traffic. It might surprise some people, but more US destinations are served from LGW than from LHR.

The mid-1980s saw BA establishing a major presence at LGW when they took over BCal and later Dan-Air and their networks (although anti-competition rules forced BA to hand some routes over to airlines like Air Europe). By the 1990s, LGW offered connections to many European destinations and more domestic routes than LHR. At the turn of the millennium, BA stopped some of their European routes from LGW but these were quickly taken over by easyJet, who is now the second largest airline at LGW. Although further from the centre of London, it is possible to get to LGW quicker by car and by the overland dedicated rail service (30 minutes). Being on the main London-Brighton rail line, LGW benefits from a major rail station with services to not only the capital, but also the coast, South East England and points north of London.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."