Pope
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Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 12:27 am

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Good job by the French and Swiss intelligence services.

I think that the second half of the article misses the point. An RPG is not a guided weapon. It is essentially point and shoot and follows a straight line (actually a hyperbolic tragectory). The counter measures, be they infrared or radar based, would have no effect on an RPG attack.

While I think that defensive countermeasures are a good idea, I think some people are going to be lulled into a false sense of security.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
doofus
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
It is essentially point and shoot and follows a straight line (actually a hyperbolic tragectory).

Do you mean "parabolic" instead of "hyperbolic"? Unless I'm missing something here.
.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 1:27 am

from the article:

"When the matter was reported to Israeli security, El Al changed the flight paths of all its Geneva-bound planes, landing them at Zurich Airport the following week."

wow. fuel reserve to circle for a full week?
 
Poitin
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 1):
Fortunately, with improved airport security these days, it is extremely difficult, if not mathematically impossible, to shoot down a jet with a handheld missile launcher.

Difficult yes, impossible no. The weapon used was not a guided missile but a RGP, which is a relatively short range weapon, with an effect range of 300 meters and a maximum of about a kilometer. However, if it hit a fuel tank, then look out.

The 9K38 Igla (aka SA-18) has a vertical range of about 3.5 km and with a 2 Kg warhead would do serious damage to most airliners. Would it survive? Maybe. A DHL A300 survived one a couple years ago at Baghdad.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 5):
wow. fuel reserve to circle for a full week?

LOL!

I'm hoping that the day never comes when an attack like this is successfully launched in the US - or even attempted. Yes, I care about other countries, but I'm just referring to my home market.

It would certainly impact many folk's decision to fly, and would, I believe, be much more frightening than a hijacking scenario. With hijacking, you can fight back, or at least keep your eyes out for suspicious activity. With a RPG or missile of some sort, you basically would stare out the window with a helpless fear.

-Dave
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Pope
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting Doofus (Reply 3):
Do you mean "parabolic" instead of "hyperbolic"? Unless I'm missing something here.

Yep. U R correct.
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YYZYYT
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7):
I'm hoping that the day never comes when an attack like this is successfully launched in the US - or even attempted. Yes, I care about other countries, but I'm just referring to my home market.

It would certainly impact many folk's decision to fly, and would, I believe, be much more frightening than a hijacking scenario. With hijacking, you can fight back, or at least keep your eyes out for suspicious activity. With a RPG or missile of some sort, you basically would stare out the window with a helpless fear.

I always used to wonder about this threat, especially with the advent of accurate shoulder fired surface to air missles.
I am much heartened to learn that a missle hit (should terrorists succeed in a plot such as this) does not necessarily down the plane - recent examples are a C5 and A-300, both hit out of Baghdad.


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As good as security and intellegence can be, it's good to know there is a back-up plan: piloting skills.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
An RPG is not a guided weapon. It is essentially point and shoot and follows a straight line (actually a hyperbolic tragectory). The counter measures, be they infrared or radar based, would have no effect on an RPG attack.

While I think that defensive countermeasures are a good idea, I think some people are going to be lulled into a false sense of security.

Absolutely correct. An aircraft is still vulnerable to this type of attack, especially if it is on the ground/parked at the gate.
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rjpieces
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 6:05 am

And people wonder why El Al has extra security....
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United787
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 8:12 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 6):
I always used to wonder about this threat, especially with the advent of accurate shoulder fired surface to air missles.
I am much heartened to learn that a missle hit (should terrorists succeed in a plot such as this) does not necessarily down the plane - recent examples are a C5 and A-300, both hit out of Baghdad.

That picture of the A300 is amazing, I can't believe that thing could still fly!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
That picture of the A300 is amazing, I can't believe that thing could still fly!

It must have required extraordinary pilot skills to be able to fly it with only one aileron and a half busted wing. Of course, they must have used assymetric thrust and rudder input to keep the aircraft level, but combined with the wing in this state, the pilots really worked to the last to make the aircraft land safe.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 6):
As good as security and intellegence can be, it's good to know there is a back-up plan: piloting skills.

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avroarrow
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 11:22 am

I can see it now.....instant arrest and shipment to Cuba for anyone standing outdoors or rolling down a car window within 5 miles of an airport. That is the only possible defence against this type of unguided missle attack.
javascript:smilie_click('sarcastic')
Or conversly I think the optimal defence would be for governments everywhere to encourage large groups of voluntary spotters with cameras and notepads to monitor airport activity and report any suspicious activity around the perimeter to the proper authorities. And if they also manage to get some great photos to post to A.net (the best website ever!!) then that is just a happy bonus. Sadly however I feel that the world will never see the plus side to our hobby. People just don't seem to understand that as enthusiasts we would do almost anything to prevent bad things from happening to our beloved airlines and airliners. They have "minutemen" for the US border, why not allow for recruitment of similar people for observation of our airports. Then any enthusiast could volunteer and not be hassled for being near an airport with a camera.
Sorry I got way off track there, I am very glad that a possible catastrophe was averted. It just annoys me that 99% of the world would get along fine if left to go about their lives, but there is always 1% that seems to want to wreck things for everyone.
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777fan
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 5:12 pm

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
I think that the second half of the article misses the point. An RPG is not a guided weapon. It is essentially point and shoot and follows a straight line (actually a hyperbolic tragectory). The counter measures, be they infrared or radar based, would have no effect on an RPG attack.

Actually, that appeared to be the exact point of the second half of the article.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 7:17 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
That picture of the A300 is amazing, I can't believe that thing could still fly!

true, also when you take in consideration that under normal circumstances AA is able to make an accident with a 300
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juventus
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 9:10 pm

Unfairly, this is why many non-Israelis avoid EL AL. People should just leave them alone.
 
RobertS975
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 9:30 pm

The possibility of either a single shoulder fired missile attack is worrisome enough, but should the terrorists ever get their act together, imagine a coordinated attack worldwide, one or two aircraft hit at dozens of different airports more or less simultaneously.
 
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TripleDelta
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
It must have required extraordinary pilot skills to be able to fly it with only one aileron and a half busted wing. Of course, they must have used assymetric thrust and rudder input to keep the aircraft level, but combined with the wing in this state, the pilots really worked to the last to make the aircraft land safe.

IIRC, the a/c lost all three hydraulic systems and maneuvered and landed, very nicely given the circumstances, using assymetric thrust alone.
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rjpieces
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sat May 20, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 17):
Unfairly, this is why many non-Israelis avoid EL AL. People should just leave them alone.

You're much more likely to be effected by terrorism on a non- El Al flight...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sun May 21, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
You're much more likely to be effected by terrorism on a non- El Al flight...

I doubt that. Most airlines aren't blacklisted by terrorists, Israeli carriers certainly are. Though security may be tight, the risk of being attacked by whatever means is always there, more or less.


PH
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amirs
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sun May 21, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 21):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
You're much more likely to be effected by terrorism on a non- El Al flight...


I doubt that. Most airlines aren't blacklisted by terrorists, Israeli carriers certainly are. Though security may be tight, the risk of being attacked by whatever means is always there, more or less.


PH

I think RJ is right, do the math. How many terrorist attacks have there been on LY compare to the how many terrorist attacks have been through out the world.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Sun May 21, 2006 7:27 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 6):

Whats the story on the C5.
Fantastic Flying by the DHL crew on the A300 though  bigthumbsup 
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PlaneHunter
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Mon May 22, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 19):
I think RJ is right, do the math. How many terrorist attacks have there been on LY compare to the how many terrorist attacks have been through out the world.

And how many airlines are out there which have never been attacked or which have never even faced an attempt? Having a large number of enemies is a potential risk, strict security or not.


PH
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Pope
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Mon May 22, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 12):
Actually, that appeared to be the exact point of the second half of the article.

Wow. I thought I was crazy when I saw your post because the article I read said nothing about the countermeasures being ineffective against and RPG attack. I went back to the link I posted and they updated the article to address that specific point.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Mon May 22, 2006 11:27 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 21):
And how many airlines are out there which have never been attacked or which have never even faced an attempt? Having a large number of enemies is a potential risk, strict security or not.

Except that more or less every airplane/airline faces a potential threat, especially American (the country) airlines.....That said, assuming that I'm just at risk on Continental as on El Al, I'd hands down rather be on El Al because of their security measures.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Mon May 22, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 23):
Except that more or less every airplane/airline faces a potential threat, especially American (the country) airlines.....

American carriers are blacklisted, too, unfortunately. But countless carriers aren't, therefore these don't really face a comparable potential threat.


PH
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777STL
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RE: Plot To Shoot Down An El Al Flight Foiled

Mon May 22, 2006 2:44 pm

I'd feel safer on El AL than I would AA.
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