NAV20
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Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:16 am

Just read that in a Forbes article. Can someone please reassure me that it's a misprint? Surely they can't be blue-ing that sort of money on an aeroplane that hasn't entered service yet, still appears to have several unsolved problems (like suspect wings), and is still only selling in 'market niche' numbers? I make that figure about 15 bucks for every man, woman, and child in the UK?

"Heathrow operator BAA is spending some $850 million to upgrade the airport to accommodate the A380 and other anticipated ultra-large aircraft of the future. Other work has included runway resurfacing, upgrading runway lighting and the construction of new taxiways.

"Douglas said the airport has widened and strengthened a runway to accommodate the A380, which has a list price of $300 million. New, larger baggage carousels also have been installed at Terminal 3 to accommodate the 555 passengers that can travel on the aircraft."


http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/05/18/ap2756312.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
flylondon
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:25 am

It might only be selling in "market niche" numbers but Heathrow is in that niche. As well as Virgin basing several of them at Heathrow, many of the other airlines that have ordered them are expected to fly them to LHR.

It's worth pointing out that of the $850m, much of it would have to be spent anyway simply to renovate Heathrow. Things like the new pier 6 for the A380 really needed doing regardless of the introduction of the new type.
 
NAV20
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:37 am

You mean the $850M. is CORRECT, FlyLondon?

How much does Heathrow clear per processed passenger? And how many A380 passenger arrivals per annum are they planning for? What is the estimated rate of return? By normal investment 'rules' they should be reckoning on at least an extra $70M. p.a. net revenue?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
pavlin
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:43 am

Worth meantioning that the Heathrow will see the most A380 service.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
Surely they can't be blue-ing that sort of money on an aeroplane that hasn't entered service yet, still appears to have several unsolved problems (like suspect wings), and is still only selling in 'market niche' numbers?

Should BAA wait for all the upgrades until the first A380 circles around LHR?  eyebrow 

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
I make that figure about 15 bucks for every man, woman, and child in the UK?

I don't think many in the UK would be shocked to hear that number, there are definitely other ventures for the British people to seriously think about...

Quoting FlyLondon (Reply 1):
It might only be selling in "market niche" numbers but Heathrow is in that niche. As well as Virgin basing several of them at Heathrow, many of the other airlines that have ordered them are expected to fly them to LHR.

 checkmark 

EK, QF and SQ will fly to LHR for sure, others like EY, KE, MH, QR or TG are likely to do so.

Quoting FlyLondon (Reply 1):
It's worth pointing out that of the $850m, much of it would have to be spent anyway simply to renovate Heathrow.

 checkmark 


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
aerosol
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:46 am

+more people people shopping at LHR.

Some people know where the future of aviation is, some don't  Smile!
 
Gman94
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:48 am

Well BAA are loaded, LHR is just one big cash cow. Just one example of their spending power is that T5 is totally funded by BAA and no UK tax payer money has gone into the cost of building it and that's costing around $2.8bn, $850 is spare change for them. And as others have said LHR is the type of airport that the A380 was designed for, for BAA to not enhance the airport for the plane would be a disastrous business decision.

[Edited 2006-05-20 17:49:12]
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
andz
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:56 am

JNB is spending ZAR 450m ($75m) and CPT ZAR 90m ($15m) on improvements just for the A380. LHR is more assured of 380 traffic than we are.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
Feroze
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 1:32 am

www.heathrowairport.com/a380

gives all the details of the work that has gone on at LHR to prepare for the A380, including Pier 6 at T3 which cost £105m (US$190m) alone.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
How much does Heathrow clear per processed passenger? And how many A380 passenger arrivals per annum are they planning for? What is the estimated rate of return? By normal investment 'rules' they should be reckoning on at least an extra $70M. p.a. net revenue?

Heathrow makes stupendous amounts of profit for BAA, $850m in improvements is a trivial figure especially when the vast majority of those improvements will benefit the majority of traffic regardless of type. Bear in mind that theres a tonne of work being done that would have been done anyway, regardless of the A380 - they are just doing it at the same time.
 
NAV20
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):
Heathrow makes stupendous amounts of profit for BAA, $850m in improvements is a trivial figure.....

OK, RP, I admit that I'm old-fashioned. In my day, if you geared spending to likely increased turnover, and avoided waste, you maximised profits. Sometimes careful attention to that principle allowed you to reduce prices as well, and thus make those profits more secure. But, from what you say, times have changed, and you can justify excessive spending just by saying, "OK, it's a shitload of money for not much return. But if we hadn't decided to spend it on this project, we'd have spent it on something else anyway."
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
But, from what you say, times have changed, and you can justify excessive spending just by saying, "OK, it's a shitload of money for not much return. But if we hadn't decided to spend it on this project, we'd have spent it on something else anyway."

No, Im saying 'If they hadnt spent $850m (which is £500m) on the A380, you would have seen a fairly similiar figure being put into general improvements anyway'. Heathrow needs the investment, its a decrepid, paintpeeling, horrible place and investment has been a long time coming, with Terminal 3 (the focus of the investment mentioned) being one of the most needy.

The baggage carousells needed replacing which will benefit all passengers, A380 bound or not, the runway and taxiways gets a yearly resurfacing which would be done A380 or not. They are literally just bundling together a large number of tasks that needed to be done and putting it under the A380 banner.

The way BAA are marketing this is quite impressive, how else would they have got forums, analysts and industry journalists talking about what is essentially largely housekeeping and maintenance otherwise? By linking it to the A380, they get to capitalise on the press attention.

[Edited 2006-05-20 19:18:49]
 
astuteman
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):

FWIW BAA anticipate (even now) that by 2020 10% of all movements at Heathrow will be A380 or A380 sized aircraft.

(I think I've also seen a figure of 60 A380 movements per day within 10 years - others may be able to corroborate)

That's a lot of A380 sized A380's for the facilities to handle  Wink.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
"OK, it's a shitload of money for not much return"

I don't for one second believe BAA think this. The rules haven't changed, my friend. BAA is very much a profit chasing organisation

BTW, 60 A380 movements per day equals c11M passengers per annum  Smile

Regards
 
Newark777
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:20 am

Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is. For an aircraft such as the WJ that's going to bring so many passengers and service into LHR in all the years to come, $850mil is probably reasonable. And even if they lose some money, one of the largest hubs in the world should still be able to accommodate one of the largest planes in the world.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
art
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
times have changed, and you can justify excessive spending just by saying, "OK, it's a shitload of money for not much return. But if we hadn't decided to spend it on this project, we'd have spent it on something else anyway."

If you read the BAA info on the link, you will see that they are spending about $5billion on what they describe as a "revamp" of Heathrow. The $850 million cost they give to upgrade Heathrow for the A380 is therefore about 15% of what they are throwing at the airport. The BAA info does mention
- resurfacing runways (not A380 specific to me)
- strengthening runway borders for the A380
- widening taxiways for the A380
- building new taxiways
- upgrading runway lighting (not A380 specific to me)
but how that lot coupled with a new pier 6 (costing <$200 million) adds up to $850 million beats me in view of what I read below

Quoting Andz (Reply 7):
JNB is spending ZAR 450m ($75m) and CPT ZAR 90m ($15m) on improvements just for the A380
 
NAV20
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 12):
BTW, 60 A380 movements per day equals c11M passengers per annum

Fair enough, Astuteman, I'd be the first to accept that it's a matter of opinion (even just gut feeling) at this stage. But how many airlines have to buy A380s and operate them into Heathrow to generate 60 movements per day? And, as I asked earlier, how much does BAA net out of each passenger?

By coincidence, too, from a different thread, another guy also named Tony Douglas is casting doubt on whether airlines will be much interested in A380s in light of the (now largely admitted) wake vortex problem:-

"Unless the interim rules are relaxed, an A380 carrying 550 passengers would use up the same runway capacity as two 747s carrying 800 people. Tony Douglas, managing director of Heathrow, said: “If the A380 takes two slots it would cause a problem and airlines might not want to use it.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2187526.html

Well, I'm assuming that it's a different Tony Douglas. It can't POSSIBLY be the same bloke who is spending lots of other peoples' money on accommodating vast numbers of A380s at Heathrow, can it?  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
masseybrown
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
But if we hadn't decided to spend it on this project, we'd have spent it on something else anyway."

They could have spent it buying out all those whiny NIMBYs in where? Houndsbreath? Something like that. THAT would have long term payoff.
 
trex8
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
It can't POSSIBLY be the same bloke who is spending lots of other peoples' money on accommodating vast numbers of A380s at Heathrow, can it?

if this were taxpayer money only , you may have a point - though I don't think a paricularly good one as taxpayer money gets thrown at all sorts of infrastructure projects, if its not taxpayer money, they can spend it any which way they want if they think its a good investment for their organization. which their bean counters obviously think it is, maybe they are wrong but time will tell.
fact is, the A380 is here and its not going away, it may well not be a financial success for Airbus but there will be sufficient numbers in the air that major international airports like LHR will need to cater for their presence.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
And, as I asked earlier, how much does BAA net out of each passenger?

I dont have the exact figures and I have no links to back this up (it was explained to me by a BAA employee I was having coffee with a year or so ago), but per passenger costs taken from the airlines and average spend in the lounges comes out to something like £25.00 a passenger round trip, with extra costs being attributed to the aircraft itself. At Astutemans 11 million passengers a year figure, that works out to be about £275m for A380 passengers alone (at 60 movements a day).

Again, take the above figures with some salt, Im only going on what I was told in a discussion.
 
NAV20
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:10 am

That's presumably the gross cost, RP? 15% profit on that would be good going. So say 40M. pounds p.a. net? If they ever reach 60 movements per day?

[Edited 2006-05-20 20:14:50]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:23 am

The figure you quoted is in dollars, $850M = £452M, so that's the actual figure. Less than half of that £452M is being spent on A380 facilities, i.e gates, strengthening runways etc. I'd say it's money well spent, within a few years, LHR will see probably see more A380's per day than any other airport in the world.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
David_itl
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
. But how many airlines have to buy A380s and operate them into Heathrow to generate 60 movements per day

If we assume 6 VS flights , 2 EK flights and 1 SQ flight per day, that equates to 18 movements. Just need another 6 airlines that operate combined 21 flights (possible 4: QF for 2 flights?, MH 1, SA 1?). However, I would not be too surprised if SQ and EK operate more A380 flights to LHR than I've assumed by 2010; perhaps some of the current LHR-operating A380 "wait-and-see" airlines may have ordered some by then.
 
GDB
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:38 am

Not the best ever attempt to have a go, by proxy, at the A380.

Nice try, but in context, not quite so 'shock horror'.
As stated in several posts above.

Another 'old fashioned' view might be to consider how LHR had to upgrade for the 747.
Even without figures to hand, I can say with certainty, it was much, much more. In those, it was public money too. Tax £.

So the British taxpayer was subsidising Boeing? Of course not, the idea is stupid.

When this was being done, I guess in the 1968-70 period, were 747 sales greater than A380 so far?
Was it a given in the industry at this time that 747 would be a 'niche' , or would become a mainstay?
 
B742
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 4):
EK, QF and SQ will fly to LHR for sure, others like EY, KE, MH, QR or TG are likely to do so.

Correct...
QR will be using their A380's to LHR  Smile
One of the main reasons they brought the A380's was for LHR  Smile

Rob!  wave 
 
andz
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting David_itl (Reply 21):
SA 1

I have it on good authority that SAA are not considering the 380.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
pavlin
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting Aerosol (Reply 5):
Some people know where the future of aviation is, some don't Smile!

you don't know that. People would expect that American would need most A380 since they travel the most. Infact none has ordered passenger A380. And they don't have so many 744 as one would expect
 
astuteman
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
Fair enough, Astuteman, I'd be the first to accept that it's a matter of opinion (even just gut feeling) at this stage. But how many airlines have to buy A380s and operate them into Heathrow to generate 60 movements per day?

I'm only quoting BAA figures on the assumption that they make investment decisions based on their knowledge of their business  Smile FWIW the only opinion I put forward is that BAA is a profit seeking organisation and wouldn't spend the money unless they were pretty sure they'd get a return (me suspects they're thinking a lot longer term than just the next 5 years or so....).

In answer to your question, it wouldn't surprise me if the orders already placed were capable of producing approaching that number of movements at Heathrow. A lot of the A380's ordered so far will find their way to Heathrow .....

Until they're all cancelled of course  Wink

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 18):
At Astutemans 11 million passengers a year figure

I hope you're not quoting me as a knowlegeable source  Smile. Like I said, 60 a day is my recollection of BAA's numbers (IIRC). The rest was maths.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
By coincidence, too, from a different thread, another guy also named Tony Douglas is casting doubt on whether airlines will be much interested in A380s in light of the (now largely admitted) wake vortex problem:-

I'm pretty sure he's a 60 a day man though  Wink

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
Well, I'm assuming that it's a different Tony Douglas. It can't POSSIBLY be the same bloke who is spending lots of other peoples' money on accommodating vast numbers of A380s at Heathrow, can it?

I suspect, given his interest in the issue, Tony Douglas will be working as hard as Maurice Flanagan to puncture "the US led A380 wake vortex conspiracy"  Wink.
Seriously though, I suspect his comments are aimed at helping to secure a relaxation of the A380 separation criteria.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 17):
fact is, the A380 is here and its not going away, it may well not be a financial success for Airbus but there will be sufficient numbers in the air that major international airports like LHR will need to cater for their presence.

Fact is, I agree with this 100% Trex8  checkmark 

Unless they're all cancelled of course  Wink

A
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 26):
I hope you're not quoting me as a knowlegeable source  . Like I said, 60 a day is my recollection of BAA's numbers (IIRC). The rest was maths.

Would I do a thing like that?  Wink Hell, my figures were a hazy recollection, why would I put any weight on yours.... :P
 
Leskova
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 25):
People would expect that American would need most A380 since they travel the most.

Not really - the country is large enough to sustain multiple hubs, which scatters air travel enough to not require large planes. The same can not necessarily be said about countries in Europe or Asia.

Nonetheless, anyone who's ever had the misfortune to have to use Heathrow knows that the place urgently needs a lot of work; this is part of that. Would Heathrow now be investing into the A380, the amount would only be slightly less, so - as others have pointed out - acting as if this were just another case of Europe wasting money on what some think is nothing beyond a prestige project is simply nonsense.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 4:35 am

I was also going to raise the point about the B747, but GDB beat me too it while I've been at work !!.

Also don't forget that back then in the 60's, air travel was still a new thing. It hadn't yet been opened up to the great unwashed like it has now so there would have been alot more uncertainty when such a huge leap was taken with the 747.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
Finkenwerder
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
Just read that in a Forbes article. Can someone please reassure me that it's a misprint? Surely they can't be blue-ing that sort of money on an aeroplane that hasn't entered service yet, still appears to have several unsolved problems (like suspect wings), and is still only selling in 'market niche' numbers? I make that figure about 15 bucks for every man, woman, and child in the UK?

"Heathrow operator BAA is spending some $850 million to upgrade the airport to accommodate the A380 and other anticipated ultra-large aircraft of the future. Other work has included runway resurfacing, upgrading runway lighting and the construction of new taxiways.

"Douglas said the airport has widened and strengthened a runway to accommodate the A380, which has a list price of $300 million. New, larger baggage carousels also have been installed at Terminal 3 to accommodate the 555 passengers that can travel on the aircraft."

BAA is a private company and a very profitable one at that, I'm sure they aren't about to make any investments that won't bring good ROI.

Just as a matter of interest why did you choose to use the 15 Bucks bit of Hyperbole ?

Underlying performance1:
UK airports passenger traffic up 2.0% to 144.6 million (2004/05:141.7 million)

Naples broadly flat at 4.6 million passengers for the year.

Budapest Airport passenger traffic grew 9% to 1.6 million for the first three months of ownership.

Revenue up 7.4% to 2,232 million (2,078 million)

Operating profit up 8.1% to 710 million (657 million)

UK airports net retail income grew 4.8% to 616 million (588 million) and net retail income per passenger rose 2.9% to 4.28 (4.16)

All figures in Sterling...

[Edited 2006-05-20 22:48:56]
 
NAV20
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 26):
BAA is a profit seeking organisation and wouldn't spend the money unless they were pretty sure they'd get a return (me suspects they're thinking a lot longer term than just the next 5 years or so....).

Ah yes - I've seen my share of projects where people were 'confident that they will be profitable in the longer term', in both hemispheres. And played a part in winding not a few of them up.  Smile

Finally looked up 'BAA plc.' I note that the profit of c. 700M. pounds p.a. is on the whole of their operations, not just Heathrow; including the other seven-odd UK airports they operate, and those they manage worldwide. That makes it even more doubtful that the Heathrow A380 project will wash its face in isolation.

Also discovered, to my surprise, that they manage Tullamarine (MEL) on behalf of government. So they've already played the A380 trick on me - at an estimated cost of $A50M. They proposed the 'improvements' before the A380 even flew, making great play of the 850-seat passenger figure, and work is already well under way.

As it happened I looked at the detail of the project here when it was announced. The runway shoulders and taxiway works only cost $A15M., and the other $A35M. was committed mostly to extra car parking, plus some expansion of the arrivals areas.

Presumably, since they based their estimates on A380s carrying 500 more people than a 747, given that the true figure looks like being more like only 100 extra, they're busy providing roughly four times more extra space than they're actually going to need? I wonder if they're doing the same at Heathrow?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
ikramerica
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 10:47 am

People, please, think for a minute.

60 turns a day (long term projection), but of a jet only 33% larger than the 747, means that we are really talking about adding the equivalent of 20 747s a day, and spending $850 million to do it.

Wouldn't it have been cheaper in the long run just to accommodate 2 more 747s an hour and knock out some of the regional jet and A318/737 traffic if necessary?! How hard could that really be?

 stirthepot 

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 31):
Presumably, since they based their estimates on A380s carrying 500 more people than a 747, given that the true figure looks like being more like only 100 extra, they're busy providing roughly four times more extra space than they're actually going to need? I wonder if they're doing the same at Heathrow?

THey need to come over here to BUR and convince us we need to get it A380 ready so we can get the parking we need! Right now, they are talking about sharing an LAX park-n-ride lot 20 minutes away.

I mean, sure, you can't actually land an A380 here, but hey, let's build for it!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
lehpron
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 25):
Quoting Aerosol (Reply 5):
Some people know where the future of aviation is, some don't Smile!

you don't know that. People would expect that American would need most A380 since they travel the most. Infact none has ordered passenger A380. And they don't have so many 744 as one would expect

Pavlin said where not what. If people have the audacity to expect anything  Yeah sure , they would know most people that travel in the United States do so on smaller aircraft (not that the need for larger aircraft are not there, just at the moment, frequency rules until we fill airports to the brim -- by then smaller will be a hindrance). Besides, the future of aviation is a very fluid concept and will change keep changing. People can know "a" future, their perception of what may come to pass, but not "the" future.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
NAV20
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):
means that we are really talking about adding the equivalent of 20 747s a day, and spending $850 million to do it.

Even beyond that, Ikramerica, I expect that they were assuming that both BA and the relevant US airlines would buy the thing. Which doesn't look like happening.

Just remembering Southern California parking.  Smile We're lucky here - plenty of spare spaces at Tulla, mainly because it's over-priced and badly-situated. Most experienced travellers have learned to use the park n' rides that have sprung up all around the airport; your car's under cover and much more secure, the shuttlebuses only take five minutes, and they drop you right at the door.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 11:22 am

If you knew the list of things they have done or they are doing £500m is not a lot. For a start it cost roughtly 50% more to build or do anything in the UK compared to anywhere in the world.

Pier 6 costs £100m.

Strengthening the runway costs A LOT. You can only do it at night in small patches. Labour cost is 2-2.5 x normal. Plus design, materials and qa. Remember it's a runway that needs to take the weight of an A388 at MLW.

As for taxiways, widening the shoulder is cheap coz the shoulder needs only to take the weight of a fire engine. But Heathrow is actually realigning long stretches of taxiways to make them Code F compliant. Around the 09L/R hold, the bottom right of A/B near T2 and numerous other places which they are going to do and it's not appropriate to disclose here. That's gonna cost a few quid more than simply patching up some grass for the wider Code F shoulder.

Other works included in the sum include improvements inside the terminal (general improvements, check-ins, more shops, more baggage carosels, more immigration/customs desks, etc) which they would be doing anyway regardless of the A388.

Whether or not the spend is justified you have to add the potential this work brings to the opportunity cost of not doing this work when everyone else is doing it.
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art
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 31):
The runway shoulders and taxiway works only cost $A15M., and the other $A35M. was committed mostly to extra car parking, plus some expansion of the arrivals areas.

Interesting to see that your airport could be modified for A380 movements for <$US50 million. Why should it be ten or fifteen times more expensive at Heathrow?
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 35):
Even beyond that, Ikramerica, I expect that they were assuming that both BA and the relevant US airlines would buy the thing. Which doesn't look like happening.

Remember if the likes of BA chooses B748s over A388s they wont be able to park them on the existing Code E stands without either some restrictions or modifications to the stands. Code E stands are for a 65m span max but the B748 has a 68.5m span. That means you'll have to restrict the size of 2 planes parking next to one of these. Operationally it's gonna be a nightmare to allocate stands with these restrictions on a regular basis assumming if they buy it'll be in bulk.

May as well just park them on Code F stands - T5 has a number of them.

As far as I know they have planned Code Es and Code Fs for T5 and the T1/2 redev. I have never seen a Code E Wide stand specifically for the B748 on any of their drawings.
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cloudyapple
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 11:42 am

One more thing - technically speaking - B748s cannot taxi on Code E taxiways - clearance issues with stands - although this may be made an exception.

But if their engines are hung anywhere more outboard than the B744 and falls outside the existing taxiway shoulder - that breaks the fire rules and that'll be a definitely no no on any Code E.

So don't just say these improvements are made for the A388 - others aircraft types also benefit.

[Edited 2006-05-21 04:43:46]
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hz747300
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 39):
But if their engines are hung anywhere more outboard than the B744 and falls outside the existing taxiway shoulder - that breaks the fire rules and that'll be a definitely no no on any Code E.

Boeing has pitched the 748 as an aircraft which will not require major modifications as a replacement to the 744. I would be surprised if there are any aspects of the 748 which require airport modifications.

Speaking of the 747, does anyone have the numbers, adjusted for inflation, which were spent to modify airports to accommodate the 747 when it was launched into passenger service? I am just curious. My thought is that the 747 introduction was probably a lot more expensive for airports than the A380 modifications will be.
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RayChuang
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Sun May 21, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 40):
Speaking of the 747, does anyone have the numbers, adjusted for inflation, which were spent to modify airports to accommodate the 747 when it was launched into passenger service? I am just curious. My thought is that the 747 introduction was probably a lot more expensive for airports than the A380 modifications will be.

Most airports started to modify their airports for the 747 starting in the middle 1960's because everyone knew the 747 was the way to get more passengers per flight on long international flights. That was also about the same time the DC-10 and L1011 were being designed and what became the A300B was in early development, so by the time the 747 entered service in 1970 airports were ready to accommodate those smaller widebody jets.

As for LHR getting all those modifications for A380-800 service, that is to be expected since a number of airlines flying the A388 bought the plane specifically so they could overcome the landing slot restrictions of LHR.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Mon May 22, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 37):
Remember if the likes of BA chooses B748s over A388s they wont be able to park them on the existing Code E stands without either some restrictions or modifications to the stands. Code E stands are for a 65m span max but the B748 has a 68.5m span. That means you'll have to restrict the size of 2 planes parking next to one of these. Operationally it's gonna be a nightmare to allocate stands with these restrictions on a regular basis assumming if they buy it'll be in bulk.

This is very true, though B has a solution that involves restricting the gate next to you to a 777 or smaller. Thus you'd need to go 748 then 777/787 but that isn't such a huge deal if you are already a 777 767 330 340 operator. No more difficult to work than parking 757s.

What would happen is you remark the lines on the E gates so that on every other E gate, the "pull in line" is 12 feet to the right for 777s and 330/340s. Then in the adjacent E gate (to the left) the 748 tow in line is 6 feet to the right of the line for the other jets.

This would require that the jetways have this amount of travel available.

But, a LR 777 or 345/346 could not be parked next to a 748 at an E gate. The 748 would need to be in an F gate in that situation.

For corner pier gates, it may truly be a matter of remarking the lines only, no adjustment of parking of the jets.

see this document, page 16: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7478brochure.pdf

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 38):
But if their engines are hung anywhere more outboard than the B744

they aren't. it's the same wing structure with a modified skin and flap system. pylons aren't moving
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vv701
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Mon May 22, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Art (Reply 36):
Interesting to see that your airport could be modified for A380 movements for <$US50 million. Why should it be ten or fifteen times more expensive at Heathrow?

Do you have to have any new baggage carousels? No. You can flag up your A380 flight on two adjacent carousels or use a single existing carousel and hold back one half or one third of the baggage until the first half or two thirds has been cleared - Saving 100 per cent.

You can convert your southern runway and associated taxiways and restrict 380 movements to the southern runway and save the cost of converting the northern runway and associated taxiways - saving 50 per cent.

What you actually do depends on the 380 movements you expect. If your airport is likely to see 30 380 flights arriving within two hours of each other your expenditure on adaptation will be very much greater than if you forecast a maximum of 1 or 2 380 flights a day.
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Mon May 22, 2006 10:25 am

Heck, SEA was going to spend around $300M redoing the rental car area (and moving it away from the airport so shuttles would be required). That was until WN had a fit about airport costs. SEA has no plans currently to upgrade for the A380

I would think that the extra landing fees (weight based) will fill the cookie jar pretty quickly.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Heathrow Spending $850M. On A380?

Tue May 23, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
What would happen is you remark the lines on the E gates so that on every other E gate, the "pull in line" is 12 feet to the right for 777s and 330/340s. Then in the adjacent E gate (to the left) the 748 tow in line is 6 feet to the right of the line for the other jets.

That's exactly the problem. Every stand will have 3 Code E/F centrelines just a few feet offset from each other according to Boeing's solution. Add to that most of heathrow's Code E/F stands are MARS for 2 Code C's so you have 5 centrelines for each Code E/F stand.

Quiz: Say 501/502/503/504 each has LL/L/C/R/RR centrelines. All stands are side by side. 501 is Code F, the rest are Code E. LL and RR are Code C. L/R are the B748 offsets and C is the nominal stand centreline.

OK, we already have an A320 on 501LL, a B738 with winglets on 501RR, a B748 on 503L because of wingspan restrictions with someone on 504 who has since left. What is the max wingspan I can park on 502 and on which of the 5 centrelines?

These are the problems we need to deal with day in and day out if we go down Boeing's route of parking restrictions. That's bound to cause some confusions and sooner or later planes will start hitting each other.
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