cbphoto
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L1011 Engine? (pic)

Mon May 22, 2006 1:42 pm

Was #2 of the day, and could not find an explaination of what happened? Does anyone what could have possibly caused a picture like this? Thanks!!!


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P.S. Searched all the forums, didn't see anything posted, sorry if it is a repeat!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Mon May 22, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting CBPhoto (Thread starter):
Does anyone what could have possibly caused a picture like this?

It looked familiar to me, so I searched through the registration. Now if you read the remark of the photo below, you'll know what happened to it.


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phxplanes
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Mon May 22, 2006 2:08 pm

They still havent fixed it? It seems like they would have atleast taken the engine off or something by now.
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Mon May 22, 2006 2:23 pm

Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 2):
They still havent fixed it? It seems like they would have atleast taken the engine off or something by now.

I've found the following at Airlinerlist.com.

"s str Miami North Side 24.10.02 Arrow Air col, center engine missing, to be brup, Agro Air to Tri-Star Enterprises Ltd 21.11.02, s03.04.03 some parts missing, s03.05 white, repo prepared for new user when ext. damaged by hurricane Wilma ar. 24.10.05, engine #1 and stabilizers damaged, to be repaired 11.05 with parts from cn 1063"
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Mon May 22, 2006 9:45 pm

It can easily be fixed... Find another Nacelle and engine, repair the cracked or dented parts with doublers. Send it on its way.
Puhdiddle
 
miamiair
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Mon May 22, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 4):
It can easily be fixed... Find another Nacelle and engine, repair the cracked or dented parts with doublers. Send it on its way.

Replacement parts for the L-1011 are few and far between. Rollos-Royce parts are even scarcer. I don't think it is economicaly feasible to repair that airplane.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
OPNLguy
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Mon May 22, 2006 10:01 pm

And to think, some folks don't understand why airlines and aircraft owners fly their aircraft off airports that are about to be impacted by tropical storms and hurricanes...

Too bad this one wasn't, or maybe couldn't...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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malaysia
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Mon May 22, 2006 10:54 pm

I would fly it with just 2 engines  Smile

My first time to ever see a L-1011 engine that shows the "TRISTAR" logo
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TZTriStar500
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Mon May 22, 2006 11:10 pm

Actually, our N194AT (s/n 1230) has been sold to the owner of this aircraft and will be used to return it to service. 194 should be making a trip from IND to OPF soon.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
cbphoto
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 1):
It looked familiar to me, so I searched through the registration. Now if you read the remark of the photo below, you'll know what happened to it.

Very interesting indeed, Thanks for the picture. Heres my question, did the wind tip the aircraft onto its engine, or did a piece of debris hit the engine? The reason I ask is, if the entire aircraft was tiped on it's engine, could that mean there is damage to the wing spares and where the wing connects to the fusalage?
thanks for all of your help!
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CalAir
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 3:46 am

Did any other engines apart from those flown by LTU have those markings? Could it be that the nacelle shown in the pic was orginally on an LTU aircraft or were other Tristars made with the same logo on the engines?
British Caledonian...we never forget, you have a choice
 
474218
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting CalAir (Reply 10):
Did any other engines apart from those flown by LTU have those markings? Could it be that the nacelle shown in the pic was orginally on an LTU aircraft or were other Tristars made with the same logo on the engines?

Its nothing more than a decal installed by the operator. Just like the RR stickers.

Quoting CBPhoto (Reply 9):
Very interesting indeed, Thanks for the picture. Heres my question, did the wind tip the aircraft onto its engine, or did a piece of debris hit the engine? The reason I ask is, if the entire aircraft was tiped on it's engine, could that mean there is damage to the wing spares and where the wing connects to the fusalage?
thanks for all of your help!

I think it was a stand that broke loose in the wind that did the damage. Like the blue one behind the wing or the yellow on in the background.
 
EMBQA
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting CBPhoto (Reply 9):
Heres my question, did the wind tip the aircraft onto its engine, or did a piece of debris hit the engine? The reason I ask is, if the entire aircraft was tiped on it's engine, could that mean there is damage to the wing spares and where the wing connects to the fusalage?
thanks for all of your help!

A quick search found that the aircraft moved from its parking spot and was struck by loose ground equipment being blown around by the hurricane.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
cbphoto
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
A quick search found that the aircraft moved from its parking spot and was struck by loose ground equipment being blown around by the hurricane.

Thanks!!!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
deltagator
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting CBPhoto (Thread starter):
Does anyone what could have possibly caused a picture like this?

As you probably already know, but...


Quoting Malaysia (Reply 7):
My first time to ever see a L-1011 engine that shows the "TRISTAR" logo

I thought the old DL planes had them on the engines but I could be wrong. Maybe it was a sticker somewhere else on the plane.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
andrewuber
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 14):

ROFL!!!  rotfl 
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting CalAir (Reply 10):
Did any other engines apart from those flown by LTU have those markings? Could it be that the nacelle shown in the pic was orginally on an LTU aircraft or were other Tristars made with the same logo on the engines?

You are very astute, because the owner of this damaged aircraft previously purchased N822DE (in the photo below) for spares which was an ex-LTU bird D-AERP. Parts off it before it was scrapped in OPF where used for N306GB and thus the nose cowl you see in the damage photo above.


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35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
474218
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 16):
You are very astute, because the owner of this damaged aircraft previously purchased N822DE (in the photo below) for spares which was an ex-LTU bird D-AERP. Parts off it before it was scrapped in OPF where used for N306GB and thus the nose cowl you see in the damage photo above.

TZTristar500, I don't want to say your wrong but I would like to point out that there may be a small problem with your scenario. The damaged airplane is s/n 1138 an L-1011-200 equipped with RB-211-524 engines, the scrapped airplane is s/n 1152 an L-1011-1 equipped with RB-211-22B's. There is a difference between the the forward cowls of the RB-211-22B and -524. The -22B has a fairing that starts almost at the front lip and fairs back in to the pylon. The -524 engine has a much shorter and flatter fairing, called a snow shovel sets back about a foot from the lip. Again, I can't say your wrong because I don't have an IPC to check interchangeability but I do know there is a difference. Maybe you can look it up at work?
 
waterpolodan
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 7:32 am

Good to hear that that particular tristar will be repaired, I've seen it sitting in front of that hangar for what seems like a couple years now every time I'm at the airport, and I've been hoping that it would return to service instead of being shuttled to OPF for scrapping. That area always has some interesting aircraft, recently I've seen some ex-Delta aircraft (a 762 and an MD80) being repainted there and there's always a good collection of 727's from around the caribbean
 
worldtraveler
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 9:25 am

DL's TriStars had the logo on the inlet duct for the #2 engine.... I think Eastern's were there too.

Classiest airplane that ever flew.
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
TZTristar500, I don't want to say your wrong but I would like to point out that there may be a small problem with your scenario. The damaged airplane is s/n 1138 an L-1011-200 equipped with RB-211-524 engines, the scrapped airplane is s/n 1152 an L-1011-1 equipped with RB-211-22B's. There is a difference between the the forward cowls of the RB-211-22B and -524. The -22B has a fairing that starts almost at the front lip and fairs back in to the pylon. The -524 engine has a much shorter and flatter fairing, called a snow shovel sets back about a foot from the lip. Again, I can't say your wrong because I don't have an IPC to check interchangeability but I do know there is a difference. Maybe you can look it up at work?

Hey Carl,
Yes, you are correct in that the cowlings are different and I was thinking about that, but there are a couple of factors that must have occured in this case.

The damaged airplane N306GB s/n 1183 was originally delivered as a -100 to Gulf Air and I noticed it was converted to a -200 in 1982. Now if a -100 with -22B's originally can be converted to a -200 with -524s, can the reverse occur and be de-moded back to -22B power? Logic would say yes, but there may be other factors invloved. There definitely would be if it was US registered with the FAA like it is now. However, I understand that this company, AVTEC, that owns N306GB want to register it in some African country where regulations are a bit more "generous".

To make this mystery more interesting, the link below shows photos of s/n 1152 with the cowlings installed. It is clear to me that the same nose cowl and possibly the engines are now on N306GB since N822DE s/n 1152 was also owned by AVTEC.

http://jetphotos.net/census/aircraft.php?reg=N822DE&msn=1152

My guess is this company de-moded this aircraft back to a -100 and installed the -22B's and cowlings off s/n 1152 onto s/n 1183. Why else would this company want to buy N194AT which is also a -100 and it is obvious that s/n 1152 now needs a new nose and core cowls and perhaps spare engines. Servicable -22B engines and nose cowls are very rare finds these days and -524s where probably worth more and/or too expensive to find servicable.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
TZTristar500, I don't want to say your wrong but I would like to point out that there may be a small problem with your scenario. The damaged airplane is s/n 1138 an L-1011-200 equipped with RB-211-524 engines, the scrapped airplane is s/n 1152 an L-1011-1 equipped with RB-211-22B's. There is a difference between the the forward cowls of the RB-211-22B and -524. The -22B has a fairing that starts almost at the front lip and fairs back in to the pylon. The -524 engine has a much shorter and flatter fairing, called a snow shovel sets back about a foot from the lip. Again, I can't say your wrong because I don't have an IPC to check interchangeability but I do know there is a difference. Maybe you can look it up at work?

Hey Carl,
Yes, you are correct in that the cowlings are different and I was thinking about that, but there are a couple of factors that must have occured in this case.

The damaged airplane N306GB s/n 1183 was originally delivered as a -100 to Gulf Air and I noticed it was converted to a -200 in 1982. Now if a -100 with -22B's originally can be converted to a -200 with -524s, can the reverse occur and be de-moded back to -22B power? Logic would say yes, but there may be other factors invloved. There definitely would be if it was US registered with the FAA like it is now. However, I understand that this company, AVTEC, that owns N306GB want to register it in some African country where regulations are a bit more "generous".

To make this mystery more interesting, the link below shows photos of s/n 1152 with the cowlings installed. It is clear to me that the same nose cowl and possibly the engines are now on N306GB since N822DE s/n 1152 was also owned by AVTEC.

http://jetphotos.net/census/aircraft.php?reg=N822DE&msn=1152

My guess is this company de-moded this aircraft back to a -100 and installed the -22B's and cowlings off s/n 1152 onto s/n 1183. Why else would this company want to buy N194AT which is also a -100 and it is obvious that s/n 1152 now needs a new nose and core cowls and perhaps spare engines. Servicable -22B engines and nose cowls are very rare finds these days and -524s where probably worth more and/or too expensive to find servicable.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
474218
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 11:57 am

TZTristar500, Convert it back to a -100 interesting, to be legal it would take a Lockheed Service Bulletin but "I think things that happen in Miami are best left in Miami", if you know what I mean?
 
airliner777
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Tue May 23, 2006 12:50 pm

That is correct, N306GB has been sitting in front of the F&E facility for quite a long time. During the last 2005 hurricane season, N306GB was turn 180 to the right and nose lifted many times leaving #2 engine, both elevators, and the horizontal stabilizer severly damaged. Also #1 engine, and some leading edge slats were damaged by ground equipment that was near the aircraft. I don't see this aircraft being ferried to OPF for scrap. I think that if they decide to scrap it will be done here at MIA. Last year there was an aircraft that was scrapped here at MIA (N800US) and early this year we had another one that was scrapped as well (C-GACC).

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5711176

Regards,
Airliner777
 
airliner777
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:04 am

Update: Today, an ATA (N194AT) L-1011 arrived to MIA and it was parked right next to N306GB. I have no clue on what they are planning on doing. Provably remove as many parts as possible from 306, and load them into 194 for a new oparator looking to have some spare parts available. Let's see what happens.

Airliner777
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 20):
The damaged airplane N306GB s/n 1183 was originally delivered as a -100 to Gulf Air and I noticed it was converted to a -200 in 1982.

I worked for GF when we converted the aircraft from -100 to -200. There was work carried out in advance on the air system, but the actual engine changes were carried out in about a day at LHR. The aircraft flew in one day, the GF engine change crew changed three engines, and it flew out the next day. So it can't be that difficult!
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting Airliner777 (Reply 24):
Update: Today, an ATA (N194AT) L-1011 arrived to MIA and it was parked right next to N306GB. I have no clue on what they are planning on doing. Provably remove as many parts as possible from 306, and load them into 194 for a new oparator looking to have some spare parts available. Let's see what happens.

N194AT actually arrived on May 24th and was purchased by the owner of N306GB as a parts/engine donor to repair 306. 306 will return to service and 194 will be scrapped....at least that is what they are planning.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 22):
TZTristar500, Convert it back to a -100 interesting, to be legal it would take a Lockheed Service Bulletin but "I think things that happen in Miami are best left in Miami", if you know what I mean?

DL's ship 724 used to swap -22B's for -524's during the 80's when it was needed for Europe.

Also, DL put -524's on the two leased TWA birds during their stay at DL. How TW survived Intl. Ops. w/o -524 engines, I'll never know.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
wjcandee
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Dl_mech (Reply 27):
DL's ship 724 used to swap -22B's for -524's during the 80's when it was needed for Europe.

Hmmmm....

I was under the impression that one reason that ATA retired 194 in the first place was that the -22Bs weren't sustainable and that (basically-unavailable) manufacturer support was required in order to make the change, thus making it basically fruitless to do a D-check on it. I also understood that the engine change wasn't as simple as just hanging a different engine on the pylon, that there were a number of other modifications that had to be made as well. So it seems strange that these guys are allegedly going to just "swap" the engines.

I have no doubt that, in the day, DL was quite capable -- as one of the most experienced L1011 operators -- of doing various modifications in-house. Indeed, they designed and installed the extra door on some of the -500s, no? But wasn't this engine swap at DL that's being discussed done at a time where parts, expertise, and manufacturer support were more readily available?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting Dl_mech (Reply 27):
How TW survived Intl. Ops. w/o -524 engines, I'll never know.

I used to look after TWA L1011 in ARN from 1987-91? when they ceased ops there. With L1011-100 there was no problem with ARN-JFK. But when they sent a domestic L1011-1 over, then the fun began. It was always hold the fuel truck, then give us another 1000lbs, then they had to file for BGR and divert to JFK etc etc. But I dont remember it ever leaving Pax behind.
One day TWA decided to reroute ARN-FBU-JFK because of a large group from FBU (Oslos old airport). But after they landed there they realised that the runway was too short to do direct JFK, and they had to stop for fuel somewhere!
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 28):
Hmmmm....

I was under the impression that one reason that ATA retired 194 in the first place was that the -22Bs weren't sustainable and that (basically-unavailable) manufacturer support was required in order to make the change, thus making it basically fruitless to do a D-check on it. I also understood that the engine change wasn't as simple as just hanging a different engine on the pylon, that there were a number of other modifications that had to be made as well. So it seems strange that these guys are allegedly going to just "swap" the engines.

I have no doubt that, in the day, DL was quite capable -- as one of the most experienced L1011 operators -- of doing various modifications in-house. Indeed, they designed and installed the extra door on some of the -500s, no? But wasn't this engine swap at DL that's being discussed done at a time where parts, expertise, and manufacturer support were more readily available?

Its much easier to de-mod an aircraft back to an engine with a lower thrust rating than the other way around. If it was already modified structurally and systemwise to handle the extra thrust of the -524's (which 194 was not), then reverting it back to -22B power theoretically would be easy as it simply restricts the operational parameters. Modifying a -1, -40, -50, -100, -150 to -524 power in this day and age is nearly impossible from a manufacturer support perspective extremely cost prohibitve.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
wjcandee
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 30):
Modifying a -1, -40, -50, -100, -150 to -524 power in this day and age is nearly impossible from a manufacturer support perspective extremely cost prohibitve.

Okie-dokey. That's what I understood based on posts by various ATA folks, I think including yourself.

One other thing that's interesting to me, though. Certainly as between manufacturers and also, I thought, between many engine types from the same manufacturer, aren't there differences in things like location, size and types of wires, hoses, ducts and other matters involving the interface of the engine to the aircraft? (I.e. you can't just bolt a different engine type onto the same pylon, and you can't just bolt a new proper engine/pylon assembly to the wing and have everything line-up and work -- even beyond the structural issues involved -- can you?)

In many modern engines, plainly the difference between "models" that have differing thrust levels is changing a chip or flipping a switch (the BR715 comes to mind -- it's a very simple adjustment). In contrast, there are so many *actually different* versions of the CF6 that it's almost mindblowing.

I had assumed, therefore that the difference between the -22B and the -524 was more significant than just thrust level. Am I right or completely off-base?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 31):
I had assumed, therefore that the difference between the -22B and the -524 was more significant than just thrust level

There are numerous differences between the two marks of RB211, but the engine diameter and the mounts and the cowlings and the reverser are all the same. They have different HP sections, different nbr of blades completely different surge bleed management systems etc etc, but as far as bolting a -524 in place of a -22B, the big difference is the pneumatic air offtake is hotter and higher pressure, therefore many changes are required in the pneumatic system, and of course all the operating temps and speeds are different so different gauges are required in the cockpit, but the engines are the same physically.
The -524 swallows a lot more air to produce its thrust which is a problem when ground running. The nbr2 eng on the Tristar will not go above about 85% thrust unless you are moving!
 
wjcandee
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:23 am

Thanks TriStarSteve! I now have a sense of the order of magnitude of what's required.
 
airliner777
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 26):
N194AT actually arrived on May 24th and was purchased by the owner of N306GB as a parts/engine donor to repair 306. 306 will return to service and 194 will be scrapped....at least that is what they are planning.

Hey, thanks for the heads up!  Wink
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: L1011 Engine? (pic)

Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 28):
I have no doubt that, in the day, DL was quite capable -- as one of the most experienced L1011 operators -- of doing various modifications in-house. Indeed, they designed and installed the extra door on some of the -500s, no?

We did install and certify the extra doors on D-AERT (N501GB) for Rich International. We used to have an Army of L-1011 people at DL.....Alas, No More.
It was sad to see all of the L-1011 tooling and equipment headed for the dumpster the week after the TriStar left.

Thanks to Steve for the TW info!
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

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