Boeing7E7
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San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 5:38 am

And there you have it:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...tro/20060522-1309-bn22airport.html

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/site/...c=euLTJbMUKvH&b=1270899&ct=1738947

Ballot:

The ballot language, introduced by board member Paul A. Peterson, reads as follows:

"Shall San Diego County government officials make every effort to persuade Congress and the military to make available, by 2020, approximately 3,000 of over 23,000 acres at MCAS Miramar for a commercial airport; provided: (1) military readiness and safety are maintained with no cost to the military for relocating or modifying operations; (2) necessary traffic and transportation improvements are made and (3) no local tax dollars are used on the airport?"

[Edited 2006-05-22 22:38:55]
 
san747
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 11:19 am

Finally... So that is what the San Diego voters will see in November? Though I realize that Miramar is the best choice in this matter, I'm apprehensive. I'm not sure if the San Diegan public can be convinced about Miramar, and I can't vote on this issue (I don't live in San Diego county)...

[Edited 2006-05-23 04:20:29]
Scotty doesn't know...
 
DLKAPA
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 11:38 am

No local tax dollars? Why should my money go to funding something I'll rarely use?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
3201
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 11:47 am

How can you direct someone, by voter mandate, to "make every effort?" How do you define "every effort?" How do you measure whether or not they did indeed make "every effort?" It's nice to know whether people support the plan or not, but it hardly seems binding, given that it can't be objectively measured, thus probably not enforced. Also is there a definition of just which "San Diego County government officials" are covered by this? I mean, not to detract from the aviation content/discussion, etc., but this wording seems ridiculous.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 11:54 am

Miramar is really the only choice. Now when will we hear from the NIMBYs?
 
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Tugger
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting San747 (Reply 1):
I'm apprehensive. I'm not sure if the San Diegan public can be convinced about Miramar, and I can't vote on this issue (I don't live in San Diego county)...

I am aprehensive too. I hate teh waste of millions of our tax dollars probably going up in smoke..... Again.
And I can vote, and I'll vote No.
OK let's see, the community's that'll vote against this (Come on, say it with me! If you live in the area you know the words):
Tierrasanta
Scripps Ranch
Mira Mesa
Kearny Mesa
Clairemont
University City
Del Mar
La Jolla
Possibly against:
Poway
Santee
Oh Yes, and I almost forgot (silly me): The Military and their families!
Now I don't know the population of these community's but I bet they are some of the higher voting groups and the will fund and campaign aginst this vigorously.

It will certainly be interesting.

Tug

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
when will we hear from the NIMBYs?

(Yep! Here we are!)

[Edited 2006-05-23 05:10:34]

[Edited 2006-05-23 05:12:29]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
redflyer
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 12:17 pm

Miramar is the only logical choice for SAN, so this is a move in the right direction. Unfortunately, it's not binding. Also, how can anyone quantify that it will not "cost" the military anything? There's going to be some cost associated with modifying operations and I suppose they (USMC) could use that language to say it violates the terms of the ballot, even if the cost is minimal.

But what really caught my eye is this...

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Thread starter):
"Shall San Diego County government officials make every effort to persuade Congress and the military to make available, by 2020, approximately 3,000 of over 23,000 acres at MCAS Miramar for a commercial airport

Does that mean Miramar will be handling civilian traffic by 2020? Or does that mean the Marines will simply "make available" the facility by 2020, which means more time will pass -- and beyond the current SAN's projected maximum capacity --by the time Miramar has the infrastructure constructed and in place (including mods to freeways, etc.) to handle civilian traffic?
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redflyer
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 5):
Now I don't know the population of these community's but I bet they are some of the higher voting groups and the will fund and campaign aginst this vigorously.

You forgot to mention some of the wealthier communities as well so whatever campaign they mount will be funded quite generously.

[Edited 2006-05-23 05:24:04]
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
futuresdpdcop
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 5):
I am aprehensive too. I hate teh waste of millions of our tax dollars probably going up in smoke..... Again.
And I can vote, and I'll vote No.
OK let's see, the community's that'll vote against this (Come on, say it with me! If you live in the area you know the words):
Tierrasanta
Scripps Ranch
Mira Mesa
Kearny Mesa
Clairemont
University City
Del Mar
La Jolla
Possibly against:
Poway
Santee
Oh Yes, and I almost forgot (silly me): The Military and their families!
Now I don't know the population of these community's but I bet they are some of the higher voting groups and the will fund and campaign aginst this vigorously.

It will certainly be interesting.

Tug

You forgot Sabre Springs and quite possibly Rancho Penasquitos.
 
gigneil
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 12:35 pm

All of those people in those communities are stupid.

Anyone that can't see that air travel and successful airports are key to local economy (even if you "rarely use it") should have their license revoked, because its got to be dangerous to drive with their head that far up their ass.

N
 
andessmf
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 9):
All of those people in those communities are stupid.

NIMBY = Stupid

i.e. = Fight road construction due to 'quality of life' and then complain about how traffic congestion affects the 'quality of life'.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 9):
Anyone that can't see that air travel and successful airports are key to local economy (even if you "rarely use it") should have their license revoked, because its got to be dangerous to drive with their head that far up their ass.

Wouldnt airports closer to their cities, with good access thruout, be also beneficial on the gas saved by lessening the distance?

BTW, San Diego airport threads are the next 'when is NW replacing the DC9s?' threads. Long but with no immediate answers.
 
Trvlr
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 12:44 pm

Good. The Authority (most of it, really) realizes that this is not the time for dancing around issue. You're not going to get anywhere by compromising, especially when a "compromise" could end up being an $18 billion white elephant.

This is the best choice, and in fact, it may be the only one. The sooner people start hearing this, the better.

Aaron G.
 
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Tugger
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting FutureSDPDcop (Reply 8):
You forgot Sabre Springs and quite possibly Rancho Penasquitos.

Agree.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
You forgot to mention some of the wealthier communities

Well, there could also be also Cardiff and Carmel Valley and maybe a few like North PB etc.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 9):
All of those people in those communities are stupid.


Ooooh, I like it! They're all stupid. I knew we we missing something!

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 11):
This is the best choice

but it probably isn't the best bet. I still think the best bet was Pendleton. Same military issue to overcome, not all the communities (depending on what they proposed) to fight. It also gets all the divert traffic from LAX and can serve a growing Riverside community.

Let me propose something else. As noted in the earlier thread on this topic, there is very little remaining developable land left in SD. We are going to price ourselves right out of a "vibrant business center" because how can companies entice new people to move to the area? Give them a $500,000 moving allowance? They can't do it already. This city will become trapped by its high housing prices and will become a vacation and retirement destination. (Yes, this just theorizing. We could debate this forever.) If Miramar IS the only good land left, wouldn't it be wiser to leave it available to a variety of future uses?

I still say: Who builds an airport in the middle of a city?
And again, the voters will decide.

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
socalfive
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 11):
Good. The Authority (most of it, really) realizes that this is not the time for dancing around issue. You're not going to get anywhere by compromising, especially when a "compromise" could end up being an $18 billion white elephant.

This is the best choice, and in fact, it may be the only one. The sooner people start hearing this, the better.

Exactly and getting out in front of this NOW means they might have a solution BUILT before it's ten years too late. The noise factors have already been batted around in the local media and most realize that there isn't an airliner in the skies today that puts out anywhere near the noise that EVERYTHING the military launches out of there does. Plus, flight patterns will be instituted and noise abatements put into place and it certainly won't be as bad as one might think. As far as who funds the argument, there's a lot of money in Point Loma that will be FOR the move to Miramar as well as many other communities that would like to see a more convenient location than SAN is. Miramar will be a lot more boring to fly into than SAN but for growth sake, it's the ONLY answer.
 
PanAm747
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 1:47 pm

If the city of San Diego asks the military, and they say no, then at least we have asked.

If the city does NOT ask, and the military abandons Miramar (and remember, it has been offered to the city twice before!!), the ridiculous short-sidedness will be fodder for comedians for a long period of time.

If you had asked someone in 1988, "what do you think - will the Navy ever leave Miramar and offer it to the city?", they would have put you in a straightjacket and thrown away the key. Yet two years later, it happened.

The military BRAC could announce tomorrow that the Marines are consolidating all their west coast facilities at Camp Pendleton, and Miramar will be available tomorrow. It has happened TWICE with the navy. It could happen again. Just because some media-hungry itching-for-a-promotion-wannabe pencil pusher says, "NEVER, NEVER, NEVER" doesn't mean that his successor will say the same thing.

However, I don't put much faith in my fellow San Diego voters - after all, these are the people who think LAX is the panacea to solve ALL of California's problems...not realizing that its capacity will soon be limited.

Of course, many here believe that tomorrow everyone who is not military or fifth-generation will pack up and leave, returning San Diego to the sleepy navy town it was for so many years. And that the controversy over the Mt. Soledad cross will go away and they can keep the religious symbol on public land...

When WN controls half the landing slots at SAN (Lindbergh), SNA, LAX, and BUR, and makes half its profits off of those routes charging laughably high prices, our descendants can look at us in our nursing homes in horror and say, "How could you not realize this would happen?"

And we can say, "we did know it would happen. We just didn't care".
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hawaiian717
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 12):
I still think the best bet was Pendleton. Same military issue to overcome, not all the communities (depending on what they proposed) to fight. It also gets all the divert traffic from LAX and can serve a growing Riverside community.

Except that Pendleton, at the northern edge of the county, makes a lousy location for a San Diego airport. If Oceanside wants to build an airport there, fine. But don't call it a San Diego airport. Traffic on I-5 is bad enough, now lets add all the airport bound traffic to it. One of the site's few advantages is the existing Amtrak rail, which could possibly be used to extend Coaster service (currently gets as far north as Oceanside) to the airport itself to provide an alternative to driving. If the idea at Pendleton is to build a reliever to LAX, perhaps LAWA should build it rather than San Diego taxpayers. Oh right, they already have a big LAX reliever airport nobody uses because its too far away from anywhere: PMD.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 12):
I still say: Who builds an airport in the middle of a city?

When you're sprawled around various hills, valleys, mesas, and mountains, you take whatever bits of flat land you have. We're fortunate that we have as big a space as Miramar that's reasonably flat and undeveloped to build a new airport in. Because building a nice big new airport out in the middle of nowhere is going to be another Mirabel. A few people might use it, but we'll stick with Lindbergh. Put it too far away, and we'll just go to LAX, SNA, ONT, or LGB. Or even CLD and TIJ.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 12):
And again, the voters will decide.

I wasn't here the last time around, but from what was posted here, the last time the voters were asked about this, we said we wanted an airport at Miramar.
 
phuebner
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting 3201 (Reply 3):
but this wording seems ridiculous.

It's San Diego's way of saying that they are now going to get on their knees and beg for the land.
Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
 
JAAlbert
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 11:01 pm

I live in San Diego -- Clairemont Mesa area -- and I vote yes.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 11:13 pm

I think Miramar could be the new airport provide San Diego airport officials require 1) all airplanes have to meet something akin to the proposed ICAO Stage IV noise emission rules and 2) no operations at airport between 2330 hours and 0600 hours.

Because Miramar's runways are very long, this means airliners don't need to run their engines to full power and doing the type of steep noise abatement takeoffs that SNA requires.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Tue May 23, 2006 11:29 pm

it's only a dream, but if there is an american city that would benefit from the japanese solution of building off shore airports, san diego is the one.

and they need it done yesterday.
 
JakeOrion
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 2:20 am

Interstate 15 is already bad enough, but being an aviation lover and hate driving up to LAX to get anywhere international, I'm going to vote Yes on this.

I live in Poway.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
works4boeing
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 2:33 am

Why would Pendleton be better than North Island NAS? It's right next to downtown with a nice bridge for access. (I'm assuming North Island still exists. I haven't been to San Diego in a few years.)
 
socalfive
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Works4boeing (Reply 21):
Why would Pendleton be better than North Island NAS? It's right next to downtown with a nice bridge for access. (I'm assuming North Island still exists. I haven't been to San Diego in a few years.)

North Island is the same situation as SAN, one runway and no room for another, and that 'nice bridge' isn't nice enough, the residents of Coronado would go crazy, it's just not feasible. Pendleton is too far from the population center but seems to me to be a good option to move Miramar.

The Miramar site is a problem for freeway access to the 15 and 805 alone, however, traffic could also route to the 52, so theoretically speaking, it could be more convenient than any other to get in and out of by accessing the airport from three different sides sides.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 2:49 am

I'm with RedFlyer.....merely asking the military to have 3,000 acres available by 2020 doesn't mean a thing. They'll still need a good three years beyond that to have the infrastructure in place for the new airport. So you're looking at close to 20 years from today for a new commercial service airport in San Diego.

Then.....what if the populace votes 'yes', and I would hope they would, and then 10 years down the road the military says 'no way'.....then you're right back where you started.

Sounds to me like this is more likely a 'let's cover our behinds and put this to a vote so we can say we did something' vote.

If the local officials in San Diego are going to put all their eggs in this basket, methinks they'll get awful rotten awful fast.

This deal should have been done years ago.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
Coronado990
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 2:53 am

Where the hell is there to spot up there? I always get chased out somewhere if I want to see a plane land. God I hate that part of town. Crowded and boring.

Miramar is not the homey place to buy some rolled tacos, park on Bankers Hill a couple of minutes from my house and watch planes (along with trains and ships). Oh well, sounds like it will take half a lifetime to complete anyway (that is IF the Marines WANT to leave). Good luck. Not going to happen as long as we have war as part of our economy and used as an excuse for the government to push it's weight around. And even if they do leave, be prepared for a split county fighting over this for years to come because the wealthy have the funding and time on their hands to fight this. It is not so much the noise issue but thought of thousands of tons of metal over their head minute by minute.

I agree Pendleton in conjunction with Lindbergh would have been the best overall solution. Overwater departures and very few NIMBY's.

Mirarmar has two problems NIMBY's (not in MY back yard) and NIMBY's (not in the Marines back yard).

I have two questions at this point...Will Palomar continue to offer commercial flights in this scenario and who will adopt the Lindbergh name because it is a classic. My guess is that MSP would want the Lindbergh name as that is where he was born. I know they already have a terminal named after him.

Long live Lindbergh Field!!!
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 2:58 am

Well, at least now I know on what I'm voting NO.
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lightsaber
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 3:20 am

I wish I could vote on this...

San Deigo direly needs more airport capacity. Do I think Mirimar is the best answer? Nope. But the committee made their decision and no one who has looked at the Statistics out of San Diego would doubt that more capacity is required.

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 24):

I agree Pendleton in conjunction with Lindbergh would have been the best overall solution. Overwater departures and very few NIMBY's.

I concurr and argued for Pendleton too. However, I would have closed Lindbergh.  spin  Yes, that would provide an inconvienience to some, but by forcing a mass relocation to Pendleton, it would have been like DEN: instant large airport (with some large desertions by unhappy carriers).

Lightsaber
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JAAlbert
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 3:52 am

I appreciate the fact that Pendelton is the last stretch of relatively undeveloped coastal-to-mountain stretch of land we have and provides a barrier to the sprawl of Orange and Los Angeles Counties. It is also not convenient to San Diego County. Why give up that land, when we have Miramar which is situated so much more centrally.

I often see the air traffic over Miramar as I drive about the county -- the base really doesn't have that much traffic. North Island also doesn't seem particularly busy on a given day. Why don't the marines and the navy team up on North Island and use our scarce land a bit more efficiently?

I agree that traffic to a Miramar Int'l Airport would be bad, but let's face it, traffic just about everywhere in SD County is getting impossible. I think any proposal for an airport should include a highspeed rail link so that we have an alternative route to the airport other than the freeway.
 
Coronado990
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 27):
traffic to a Miramar Int'l Airport would be bad, but let's face it, traffic just about everywhere in SD County is getting impossible.



One reason large metro areas (Oceanside to the border is 50 miles of urban sprawl) have more than one airport is to disperse the surface traffic.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 27):
I think any proposal for an airport should include a highspeed rail link so that we have an alternative route to the airport other than the freeway.

As long as airports here in the U.S. make money from automobile parking, expect more freeway congestion to the new airport (if it happens). I counted eight lanes on I-15 in one direction near the Miramar area. Maybe we need 10 or 12? Hopefully you don't have get there for a flight during rush hour.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
phuebner
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 22):
North Island is the same situation as SAN, one runway and no room for another

There are two runways at NASNI (North Island). I work there everyday. It would be bad for Coronado island and the city did a study and found that it might not be such a good idea after all.
Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: San Diego: Miramar Is It

Wed May 24, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 5):
I am aprehensive too. I hate teh waste of millions of our tax dollars probably going up in smoke..... Again.
And I can vote, and I'll vote No.
OK let's see, the community's that'll vote against this (Come on, say it with me! If you live in the area you know the words):
Tierrasanta
Scripps Ranch
Mira Mesa
Kearny Mesa
Clairemont
University City
Del Mar
La Jolla
Possibly against:
Poway
Santee
Oh Yes, and I almost forgot (silly me): The Military and their families!
Now I don't know the population of these community's but I bet they are some of the higher voting groups and the will fund and campaign aginst this vigorously.

It will certainly be interesting. Swapping F-18's for Commercial Ops takes 6,000 people out of the noise contour.

Tug

And they might have half a point if they were actually affected by noise. Swapping commercial jest for Fighters take 6,000' people currently in the noise countour, out of the noise contour. The commerical moise contour affects 10 people.

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 16):
It's San Diego's way of saying that they are now going to get on their knees and beg for the land.

It's the Airport Authority's way of telling local myopic beholden to the military (mostly retired military) politicians to quit screwing around with this issue as they have in the past - against the public will that selected Miramar as an airport in 1994. Had they been doing their job v. filling their defense contract coffers, the Marines wouldn't be at Miramar today and an airport would either be open, or close to opening right now.

[Edited 2006-05-24 06:36:33]