maperrin
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:06 am

TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Tue May 23, 2006 8:20 pm

TAM airlines has informed that they will decide before June end, which aircraft will substitute their F100. As they are Airbus (319/320) users, they should logically chose A318. However, on the other side ,Embraer did not sell one 190 so far in Brazil, mainly because of consumption tax, which was applicable on domestic sales and not exports. Can we really compare those 2 aircrafts ?
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Tue May 23, 2006 8:29 pm

Quoting Maperrin (Thread starter):
TAM airlines has informed that they will decide before June end, which aircraft will substitute their F100. As they are Airbus (319/320) users, they should logically chose A318. However, on the other side ,Embraer did not sell one 190 so far in Brazil, mainly because of consumption tax, which was applicable on domestic sales and not exports. Can we really compare those 2 aircrafts ?

We have been eagerly nawaiting for this order for some time now. I actually consider this to be close call. I would consider the E190 to be in the front running though.

How important is cargo revenue for TAM? How much of an advantage does the A318 have vs the E190? TAM will also have the opportunity to keep fleet commodity with the rest of the Airbus fleet.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6166
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Tue May 23, 2006 11:29 pm

Yesterday, the online edition of the Valor news journal mentioned that there was a chance JJ would go for the EMB190. The A318 would seem to have an advantage due to commonality with the rest of the fleet, but those planes are best suited to longish, thin routes rather than short distance hopping, so JJ might go for the Embraer. Are the A318 and the EMB190 the only planes in the race?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
maperrin
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:06 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Tue May 23, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):

Yes they are.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 12:42 am

Well, seems to me that the 190 would be a great replcement due to the more favorable CASM it has.
One Nation Under God
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 4):
Well, seems to me that the 190 would be a great replcement due to the more favorable CASM it has.

You're right, and as per Valor printed edition, seems that on small routes, where Tam need the planes, E190 is far ahead of A318.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 1):
How much of an advantage does the A318 have vs the E190? TAM will also have the opportunity to keep fleet commodity with the rest of the Airbus fleet.

This is as per Tam sources the only advantage of A318. Price, CASM, Logistic (Embraer is just 100 miles far from CGH/GRU), and even finance (BNDES has a long term rate of 8% in Brazilian Reais, granting to Tam a financial advantage Airbus cannot produce (US$ fed rate 5% plus the risk of long term US$/R$ valuation). The best on Embraer is the finance terms in Brazilian Reais as Tam revenue nowadays is at least 75% originated in domestic operations (a strong hedge). Tax problems has been solved by the Federal and state governments.

Correction: It seems to be a 22 planes order and not 20.
Felipe

[Edited 2006-05-23 18:36:26]
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 4:40 am

My guess is that this order will go to the E190.......aside from whatever financial/currency advantages TAM may enjoy due to the fact that the E190s are built in Brazil (interesting summary, LipeGIG, thank you), the E190 is better suited for the short haul Brazilian domestic routes that TAM now flies with the F100s that will be replaced. The E190 is far better suited for short quick segments than the A318.....as pointed out, the A318 is optimized for longer thin routes which really are not an issue for TAM.

With an order of 20 or 22 aircraft (with possibly follow on orders), commonality is not that important (it tends to get overated not only here at a.net, but also in real life analysis). A fleet of 20-22 aircraft is more than enough to make the economics work properly. I dont think TAM will select the A318 simply for commonality purposes. Look at the JetBlue example, JetBlue went with the E195 although many thought that an A318 order would be placed due to the commonality issue......JetBlue did the analysis and went with the E-jet, and I tend to trust their conclusions.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Maperrin (Thread starter):
Embraer did not sell one 190 so far in Brazil, mainly because of consumption tax, which was applicable on domestic sales and not exports

Is this consumption tax also applicable to import goods? If it is then it would make no difference in buying E190 or A318.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 7):
Is this consumption tax also applicable to import goods? If it is then it would make no difference in buying E190 or A318.

No VAT/consumption tax on imported planes while used for civil aviation. This is why JJ requested ZERO rate on Brazilian VAT.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
My guess is that this order will go to the E190.......aside from whatever financial/currency advantages TAM may enjoy due to the fact that the E190s are built in Brazil


Also my guess ! BNDES is working hardly to finance these birds, and i wish to fly E-jets in Brazil very soon!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
aeronut
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:41 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 7:53 am

Why not CRJ900 or 900X?
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 7:58 am

Let me throw this out here for consideration.... TAM has ordered the A350, but that aircraft may be delayed due to the redesign. TAM won't be happy with this, but maybe Airbus will give them a deal too good to refuse on A318s?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5179
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):
The A318 would seem to have an advantage due to commonality with the rest of the fleet, but those planes are best suited to longish, thin routes rather than short distance hopping,



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
The E190 is far better suited for short quick segments than the A318.....as pointed out, the A318 is optimized for longer thin routes which really are not an issue for TAM.

All this is vey true, BUT :

The A318 is indeed optimized for longer thin route, but proved to be very versatile and profitable also on short hope : AF uses its A318 on CDG-SVO as well as CDG-GVA, or CDG-LHR.

The E190 may be the winner on short hop ... I am not sure it is that interesting on longer routes.

And in a medium term, TAM will surely expand its network on longer routes in and out of Brazil, in South America.
An A318 could be perfectly used on a GIG-CGH flight, as well as GRU-SCL or GRU-LIM ... I doubt the E190 would be adapted for that ....
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 11):
And in a medium term, TAM will surely expand its network on longer routes in and out of Brazil, in South America.
An A318 could be perfectly used on a GIG-CGH flight, as well as GRU-SCL or GRU-LIM ... I doubt the E190 would be adapted for that ....

Hi Piere, in fact the E190 can fly non stop GRU-SCL and GRU-LIM without restrictions (up to 2,300 nm / 4260Km) . You can check this on Embraer web site.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7864
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 11):
The E190 may be the winner on short hop ... I am not sure it is that interesting on longer routes.

And in a medium term, TAM will surely expand its network on longer routes in and out of Brazil, in South America.
An A318 could be perfectly used on a GIG-CGH flight, as well as GRU-SCL or GRU-LIM ... I doubt the E190 would be adapted for that ....

I doubt TAM would ever use A318s or E90s in long and thin routes. From what I've heard, the only reason they have A319s is because the A320s cannot fly into SDU. I highly doubt TAM would ever put an A318 or E90 in flights 3+ hours.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
TAM won't be happy with this, but maybe Airbus will give them a deal too good to refuse on A318s?

Well until they freeze the A350 design, it's complicated to make deals as we dont even know if TAM will stick with the aircraft to begin with- neither what exactly the aircraft will be like (though, IMO, it's likely TAM will keep their order).

But maybe Airbus could try to secure TAM as an A350 customer with a sweet A318 offer and preferencial A350 delivery slots- I'd expect the latter one to be the case for all old-A350 customers, if they choose to maintain their orders.

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
FCKC
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 5:24 pm

The E190 is probably the better choice for them for thin routes.
Probably as well their choice will depend of the deal they could have with both manufacturers.
As the price of the A318 is higher than this of the E190 , certainly all will depend , how far can Airbus go to low the price.

Remember some years ago , during a Paris Air Show , they have signed a LOI for both types !!!!!!!!!.These deals never materialised.Now , seems this matter will take shape.It's nice to see TAM in perfect health.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5179
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 7:53 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Hi Piere, in fact the E190 can fly non stop GRU-SCL and GRU-LIM without restrictions (up to 2,300 nm / 4260Km) . You can check this on Embraer web site.

Hi Felipe,

I know they can technically.
I just think that the A318 is more "versatile" and adapted to this kind of traffic.
And I would love to see a TAM A318 !!!  Wink
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Wed May 24, 2006 7:55 pm

Have heard 22 Embraer 195, but I am a bit reluctant to say ""That's it!". IMO we could see a split order, or a larger order - 22 Embraers, and say 10 A318s. But let's wait... in a couple of days we'll know.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Thu May 25, 2006 6:36 am

Going by the information on the surface, I think it would be clear as to which aircraft TAM will be selecting.

The aircraft they are replacing is the F100.

Which of the two aircraft most resembles the F100?

For these supposed "long-thin" routes TAM has, well, don't they already have A319s already in the fleet for this?

Unless the A318 is used to open up new markets, I can't see this happening, it is very well known that the aircraft is better suited to GRU-PTY/CCS/BOG, rather than GGH-GIG/CWB/FLN.....on these routes, the E-Jets are ideally suited. Out of the former batch of possibilities, TAM serves none at this time.

Flying-Tiger may have it....the E195 makes more sense than the E190. CASM.
Delete this User
 
DC10Forever
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: TAM Order (20 Planes) In June: A318 Or E190?

Thu May 25, 2006 10:03 pm

I am pretty confident that TAM will take the E190.
Better one flying than two grounded

Who is online