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mariner
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UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 6:53 am

So - United goes to B, and Frontier gets the A gates.

http://www.flydenver.com/biz/news/prDetail.asp?pr_id=179

I have to take my hat off to Frontier CEO Potter - he's been totally stubborn about this, and he got what he wanted.

Mind you, United does damn well out of it, too.

mariner

[Edited 2006-05-23 23:59:16]
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roseflyer
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
Mind you, United does damn well out of it, too.

United wanted to keep those A gates for Ted as they are easiest to get to from the main terminal. But from a connecting passenger's point of view, it will be nice to have all United flights out of the B concourse.
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ERJ170
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:05 am

Well F9 has new gates.. let's hope they add some new destinations.. in the Carolina's.. a la jetBlue strategy.. or they could be original and add flights to all 3 ..

just a thought.. it could work.. 1x GSO, 2x RDU, 2x CLT..
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n471wn
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RE: UA/Frontier - Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:09 am

While they are screwing around with the A and B Concourses their former passengers are increasingly headed for Concourse C where the growth action will be---SWA will make this A and B Concourses agreement moot......Frontier and United will soon have too many gates as they will have no choice but to cut flights---they (especially Frontier since they came in and marketed themselves as a low cost alternative) and had their chance to charge fair prices but instead they both ripped off their customers for $375 RT's to Salt Lake City as an example. And now they are and will continue to pay the piper for their price gouging and near price collusion. We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C.
 
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mariner
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C.

Hmmmm? For the last couple of months, Frontier is reporting record load factors, over 80%.

So someone's not going to C.

 Smile

mariner
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FATFlyer
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:13 am

Should be interesting to see how the market reacts to this. The stock has taken quite a beating the last few months. Will the market see this as a good move for FRNT or something more to worry about? I see it as a good move depending upon the flights that get announced to use the gates.
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ScottB
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
Mind you, United does damn well out of it, too.

And I think that's basically what got the deal done in the end. DIA stepped up and provided sufficient "consideration" to United -- in the form of debt relief and the commitment to build new RJ facilities -- to essentially buy United out of its Concourse A leases.

It all strikes me as a bit of a shell game considering that the airport's debt service requirements and operating costs won't change materially -- just that the cost of servicing the debt being assumed by DIA will get spread around to all the airlines.

It's fantastic news for Frontier, given that they will get six new gates (a big increase from the current sixteen) at far lower costs than would have been required for an extension of the A Concourse. I'd guess this gives them the room to grow their DEN hub by about 40%.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:22 am

I guess UA finally realized that the A gates were doing nothing but losing money for them...this should benefit everyone involved.
 
rdwelch
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
Dbba

?

Friends don't let "executives" drink and type.

Gus

[Edited 2006-05-24 00:38:29]
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
Hmmmm? For the last couple of months, Frontier is reporting record load factors, over 80%.

So someone's not going to C.



mariner

Good point. I think we're a LONG ways from WN making a huge dent in the DEN marketplace. F9 seems to have gotten what it needed, which takes a lot of pressure off of them to find a new, secondary [domestic] focus city/hub.

-Dave
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
United wanted to keep those A gates for Ted as they are easiest to get to from the main terminal. But from a connecting passenger's point of view, it will be nice to have all United flights out of the B concourse.

No, UA wanted the gates to keep F9 in check. But UA also wants to kick up their services to smaller markets (and DEN is the best positioned airport in the nation for good small regional aircraft) and also wanted to be free of some additional outstanding debt.

Now that Southwest is in the game, UA can't keep pricing control just by putting pressure on F9. With WN talking about up to 200 flights daily, UA needs to build more feeder traffic to keep their flights busy.

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
While they are screwing around with the A and B Concourses their former passengers are increasingly headed for Concourse C where the growth action will be---SWA will make this A and B Concourses agreement moot......Frontier and United will soon have too many gates as they will have no choice but to cut flights---they (especially Frontier since they came in and marketed themselves as a low cost alternative) and had their chance to charge fair prices but instead they both ripped off their customers for $375 RT's to Salt Lake City as an example. And now they are and will continue to pay the piper for their price gouging and near price collusion. We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C.

*snort* Sorry, I was in and out of DEN last week three times. In ever case (2 flights on UA, 1 on F9) it was still Concourse A and B that were flooded early on. Don't get me wrong, WN is going to be a force in Denver, they already are. But A & B is where the action is.

Now, in about 6 months, I expect to see some announcement from WN that they have picked up gates on Concourse C, or a expansion of C concourse, but DEN is booming, and that ain't just because of blue/cyan boys.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
Well F9 has new gates.. let's hope they add some new destinations.. in the Carolina's.. a la jetBlue strategy.. or they could be original and add flights to all 3

I don't think a B6 strategy is what anyone wants to follow right now.

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
While they are screwing around with the A and B Concourses their former passengers are increasingly headed for Concourse C where the growth action will be---SWA will make this A and B Concourses agreement moot......Frontier and United will soon have too many gates as they will have no choice but to cut flights---they (especially Frontier since they came in and marketed themselves as a low cost alternative) and had their chance to charge fair prices but instead they both ripped off their customers for $375 RT's to Salt Lake City as an example. And now they are and will continue to pay the piper for their price gouging and near price collusion. We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C

It's simply supply and demand. WN and the others have raised fares, WN led the latest price increases. Not that it's a bad thing, the airlines needed it. While you say F9 and UA were gouging on the SLC route, they (UA & F9) were being gouged on other routes. Pull up ticket prices here in Chicago and seldom do you find WN much if any less than it's competitors. WN may bring the prices down a bit, but if there is a demand for SLC, WN must make money too.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 4):
Hmmmm? For the last couple of months, Frontier is reporting record load factors, over 80%.



How are their yields?

I tried to add something dealing with the concourse consolidation, but don't have much to day about it. I do hope it benefits both UA and F9 and the addition of WN will create a quality competition that all customers can benefit.

M
 
king
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 8:09 am

UA will give back, over a period of time, the six Concourse A gates that it currently leases for its Ted operation. The Ted flights will be moved to Concourse B where United is installing dual loading bridges to speed up loading and unloading of passengers.

F9 currently leases 16 gates on Concourse A, and so with the additional six, they will be at a total of 22 gates on A, enough to support their current and future needs.

F9 will not be able to acquire all of the concourse A gates right away. Under the agreement, United will give up one Concourse A gate July 1. They will surrender a second gate when their dual loading bridge project is completed on Concourse B around the middle of November. United will then return the remaining four Concourse A gates to DIA when their Concourse B regional jet facility is completed, which is expected to be in about nine months.
 
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 8:12 am

Finally, Frontier gets the gates it has needed for years and DIA gives us a little something. After all, we have been a loyal paying tenant since our move over to DIA from Stapleton for the last 11 years. UA not only consolidates their operations on the B Concourse, but in return, DIA picks up the tab on some of their debt as well as a new RJ facility.

Great deal all around.

Thank you for sharing Mariner!

Cheers!  

[Edited 2006-05-24 01:22:12]
 
hiflyer
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 8:13 am

this is not news as far as TED moving to B. Pretty much announced months ago when UA signed the deal for dual A320 overwing jetways and specified Concourse C as the install site.
 
king
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 14):
this is not news as far as TED moving to B. Pretty much announced months ago when UA signed the deal for dual A320 overwing jetways and specified Concourse C as the install site.

Don't you mean they specified Concourse B as the install site?
 
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mariner
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 14):
this is not news as far as TED moving to B.

You are right, Ted moving to B is not news.

The news - and it is big news - is that United has agreed that the A gates should go to Frontier.

This signals a change in attitude by United to Frontier, possibly for the first time in Frontier's existence.

As AirFrnt says:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
No, UA wanted the gates to keep F9 in check.

That mindset has now changed. You have to wonder what has happened at DIA in the last few months to cause it to change. Love?

You also have to think the guys at Continental are scratching their heads, wondering how much their 3 gates on Concourse A might be worth.

 Smile

mariner
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flightopsguy
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
.Frontier and United will soon have too many gates as they will have no choice but to cut flights--

Huh? UA is reporting record load factors. Second highest behind NW for many months. Bookings for all airlines reported as very high for the summer travel season. UA has announced additional service in the fall for DEN. If you are in the business, try non-revving from DEN to PHX/LAS/LAX/SFO/ORD/MDW on any carrier, including WN. Flights are essentially full except for a seat here or there on the EMO (Early Morning Originator) or the last flight of the night.

IF WN ends up with 600 flites a day to/from DEN, then UA and F9 will have 2000 combined. That will at last test the DEN ATC arrival rate of 160 per hour.

There is enough business for every airline to make money if fares and skeds are done correctly.
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COERJ145
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 8:45 am

Maybe F9 would be compelled to restart New England Service ala MHT. MHT has the ex-DH gate, which could serve 2-4 DEN flights a day.
 
hiflyer
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 8:47 am

yup..my bad. with the deal to put in 5 test overwing jetways on B the move from A was a forgone conclusion...and the mutual ageement to release A gates not a real big secret considering UA had no mainline aircraft on order to expand A or B or even Z. UA stayed quiet...and interestingly so did the City.... and let F9, and the Rocky Mountain News, continue to make hay over the lack of A gates...and then report continued losses after LUV moved into C. Was F9 played a bit by a few parties? probably.
 
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mariner
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 19):
Was F9 played a bit by a few parties? probably.

Um - I don't think so. CEO Potter could have signed to have the new gates built any day he wanted.

Frontier had the money in the bank for the new extension and every man and his dog - or every airline analyst and armchair CEO (inlcuding many on this site) - was telling him he must do it.

But Mr. Potter would not. He hung on for those A gates, and he got 'em. He has given Frontier room to expand at DEN, and he has done it without the addtional cost of the new gates.

So - how was F9 "played"?

mariner
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hiflyer
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 9:05 am

huh? sure Potter could have had the expansion if he wanted to pay but the airport did not want to cover costs. However...the airport is taking 160m of UA costs for UA to move plus saving an almost equiv amount of now non needed construction...

but F9 does not get the whole deal for 9 months...gate or two now but that is it...9 months a lifetime nowadays with 70 dollar barrel oil. Meanwhile UA does what it wants during the period.

Played
 
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mariner
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 21):
but F9 does not get the whole deal for 9 months..

Sure - but how long would it take to build the extension?

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 21):
Meanwhile UA does what it wants during the period.

UA has always done what it wants. And - as I said in the first post - they have done damn well out of this deal.

But I simply fail to see how Frontier - who got everything they wanted without cost - got "played".

mariner
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hiflyer
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
But I simply fail to see how Frontier - who got everything they wanted without cost - got "played"

9 more months (thru most of next year ski season not to mention xmas) of pretty much same facility competing now against the other LCC...Southwest...growing monthly....while UA goes it merry way. Let alone the LUV expansion but the DAL and NWA chapt 11 means agressive skeds for fall winter domestically once sumnmer europe flying is over...and with the 'new' USAir also becoming agressive while F9 basically frozen on space on their home base until into 2007.

That is played. F9 is left with n/s on the west coast..a market they already failed in once out of LAX...plus Mexico which is not a hot summer destination...no pun intended.
 
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
You also have to think the guys at Continental are scratching their heads, wondering how much their 3 gates on Concourse A might be worth.

Probably not alot for a very long time. F9 now has more than enough gates to cover their operation.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
Frontier had the money in the bank for the new extension and every man and his dog - or every airline analyst and armchair CEO (inlcuding many on this site) - was telling him he must do it.

Well I gotta admit that clusterf--- on the west end of the A concourse wasn't fun to deal with (6 gates in the space of what should have been only at most 4). Something was needed, and I guess they got something.

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 23):
That is played. F9 is left with n/s on the west coast..a market they already failed in once out of LAX

They didn't try west coast out of LAX, they tried Midwest out of LAX.
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F9Animal
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 9:57 am

This is great news for F9! I always thought it was tacky to see the TED planes parked in the same area as F9. Gotta give UA credit though, they really hung tight for quite some time.

Now what happens when F9 needs more gate space?
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 23):
9 more months (thru most of next year ski season not to mention xmas) of pretty much same facility competing now against the other LCC...Southwest...growing monthly....while UA goes it merry way. Let alone the LUV expansion but the DAL and NWA chapt 11 means agressive skeds for fall winter domestically once sumnmer europe flying is over...and with the 'new' USAir also becoming agressive while F9 basically frozen on space on their home base until into 2007.

That is played. F9 is left with n/s on the west coast..a market they already failed in once out of LAX...plus Mexico which is not a hot summer destination...no pun intended.

Perhaps all true, but if the alternative was for them to fork out a signifcant sum of $$$ for an expansion, only to then have the gates they originally were rejected come available, then I'd say that the sacrifice of a little more time, with perhaps a few experimental routes tried out to keep the planes busy in the interim, may not have been all that bad.

I think it all comes down to the "getting played" comment - if F9 got what they wanted without paying for it, except for having to wait a little longer, then I guess it's hard to see the problem.

-Dave
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
You also have to think the guys at Continental are scratching their heads, wondering how much their 3 gates on Concourse A might be worth.

As you probably recall, CO was the first carrier to sign on for DIA. They sub-leased some gates - 10 if I recall correctly - to F9. Does anyone know if that's still the case?
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mariner
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 23):
the DAL and NWA chapt 11 means agressive skeds for fall winter domestically once sumnmer europe flying is over...and with the 'new' USAir also becoming agressive

So - the whole weight of the US civil aviation industry conspired to "play" Frontier?

Oh, mate, too funny.

mariner
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phelpsie87
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 10:53 am

This is great news!! One question though...are they adding on to the already existing RJ terminal or what? I am a little confused on where its going to go.
 
flypdx
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 11:07 am

Are there any plans/renderings of this RJ Facility that will be built?
 
Alias1024
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 12:48 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 24):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
You also have to think the guys at Continental are scratching their heads, wondering how much their 3 gates on Concourse A might be worth.

Probably not alot for a very long time. F9 now has more than enough gates to cover their operation.

If not valuable from a financial point of view, they are definately valuable from a psychological point of view. Continental's way of saying "screw you" to United. Also, I think these represent the only smart decision Frank Lorenzo ever made.
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F9mechanic
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 1:22 pm

There will be some more newscome out in the next few weeks about Frontier taking over the Continental hangar, and getting their gates on A concorse. Heard that from the Continental guys here in den.
 
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mariner
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 24):
Probably not alot for a very long time. F9 now has more than enough gates to cover their operation.

For now? Yes. But the alarm was first raised about gates - or future lack thereof - on terminal A about five years ago.

It has taken all that time to arrive at this point.

And that's it, now. There may be room to squeeze some more gates in between existing one, but any real expansion of terminal A will require serious construction.

There is also the matter of international gates. I think we have to assume the Frontier will add more international destinations - many of the Mexican flights, CUN and CZM especially, are still at capacity, even this late in the season.

These questions are not just for Frontier. What does United do about their Mexican flights, which presently have to arrive at A? What if United wants to start DEN-LHR, or DEN-FRA? Their passengers will have to change terminals.

This news today achieves two things:

(i) It solves most of Frontier's gate problems at DEN for the next four or five years.

More importantly:

(ii) No matter how well United is doing from the deal, it represents a radical shift in thinking by a legacy carrier towards an LCC.

By agreeing to the transfer of the A fates to Frontier, United is proactively helping - and certainly not hindering - the upstart competition.

It also comes at a time when Frontier is venturing into other, prime, United territory - LAX-SFO.

So UA can't be feeling too grumpy with Frontier.  Smile

mariner
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DLKAPA
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 1:54 pm

This could also be a move for UA to allow F9 to better compete with WN so that they (UA) don't have to as much, or sort of a "lets focus on the newcommer, this is our town" kind of thing. UA wasn't able to beat back F9 the way they thought they could, could they be able to fight 2 strong LCCs at one of their hubs?

Also, aren't the LH and BA gates controlled by the city? If so it shouldn't be too difficult from that standpoint to have UA go into one on an international hop, though if UA went to London wouldn't it have to be through LGW and wouldn't that also force BA to move the flight back to a LGW flight?
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mariner
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 2:06 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 34):
This could also be a move for UA to allow F9 to better compete with WN so that they (UA) don't have to as much, or sort of a "lets focus on the newcommer, this is our town" kind of thing.

A few other people have suggested that. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 34):
Also, aren't the LH and BA gates controlled by the city? If so it shouldn't be too difficult from that standpoint to have UA go into one on an international hop,

Yes, I think they may be, and yes, United would have to use A if they do start any (more) international flights.

However, now that they are consolidating everything at B, I'm sure they would be much happier if they could get all their flights - including Mexico/international - through B.

I have no idea if it is even possible to construct a FIS facility at B, but at some point, DIA going to have to come to terms with its international gate situation.

It is likely they will need more, rather than less.

mariner
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WesternA318
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 2:16 pm

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C.

Umm, not me, I'm quite happy doing SLC-IAH-DEN on CO for my journeys to Colorado.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
gigneil
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 36):
Umm, not me, I'm quite happy doing SLC-IAH-DEN on CO for my journeys to Colorado.

You and literally nobody else on the planet that's not on a mileage run.

Such a routing makes no sense to anyone in any sort of business.

N
 
aaden
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 2:49 pm

[quote=Dbba,reply=3]We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C. right too AA

anyways it's seems frontier will be expanding again does anybody know where too
 
WesternA318
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 2:57 pm

Gigneil;

I dont frequent Colorado to any extent and when I do, I might as well take the airline of my choice. Besides, whats an extra $400?
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 3:06 pm

From the FlyDenver.com Press Release:

Quote:
In return for receiving the six Concourse A gates from United, DIA will build a $41.5 million regional jet (RJ) facility on the east end of Concourse B. It will be a scaled-down version of the RJ facility that DIA and United originally proposed to build in 2003. In addition, DIA will pay off the remaining $110 million debt on the automated baggage system equipment, which United stopped using last year. United’s costs will decrease as a result.
After the realignment, Frontier will be operating at increased capacity on Concourse A and United will have consolidated all of its operations on Concourse B. The airport won’t have to spend an estimated $116 million to build additional gates to meet Frontier’s needs, and DIA will be relieved of an obligation to mitigate more than $55 million in costs for construction of the RJ facility and a previously proposed Concourse A west expansion.

Read the rest here

All comes down to  dollarsign  dollarsign  dollarsign  dollarsign *

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 34):
If so it shouldn't be too difficult from that standpoint to have UA go into one on an international hop, though if UA went to London wouldn't it have to be through LGW and wouldn't that also force BA to move the flight back to a LGW flight?



Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
I have no idea if it is even possible to construct a FIS facility at B, but at some point, DIA going to have to come to terms with its international gate situation.

Despite the Bermuda II debate (you're right Eric, all London flights go to LGW if UA starts a DEN-London route...or any other American carrier, and yes the city does own the int'l gates...IIRC), IIRC, DEN has 4 Int'l Gates: A37, A39, A41, A43. Of those, only 37 and 41 are dual bridges. 39 is F9's. 41 is used by Mexicana. And those are only used less than 10x a day. United, if they wanted, could have a int'l plane arrive at one of these int'l gates and then move the plane to B for an int'l departure, avoiding the BA and LH flight.


*Hell, why not one more  dollarsign 
 
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mariner
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 4:34 pm

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 40):
All comes down to         *

Um - yes. Yes-ish.

It also comes down to a willingness by United to let the gates go - and how much DIA was prepared to give.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 40):
if they wanted, could have a int'l plane arrive at one of these int'l gates and then move the plane to B for an int'l departure, avoiding the BA and LH flight.

That is not in dispute. The debate is about the future.

Presently, there are times, expecially on a Saturday with the Mexican flights, when arriving international flights have to wait for a gate. That situation isn't going to get any easier.

mariner
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ShowerOfSparks
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting Dbba (Reply 3):
they (especially Frontier since they came in and marketed themselves as a low cost alternative) and had their chance to charge fair prices but instead they both ripped off their customers for $375 RT's to Salt Lake City as an example. And now they are and will continue to pay the piper for their price gouging and near price collusion. We customers do not forget----we are simply just going to Concourse C.

Well obviously SWA has succeeded in getting you out of the Greyhound terminal and out to the airport, so be it. You're entitled to your opinion. As for me I'll continue to consider Frontier as my first choice and fly an airline with lots of class.

[Edited 2006-05-24 11:42:49]
 
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Wed May 24, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
Well F9 has new gates.. let's hope they add some new destinations.. in the Carolina's

I would love someone other than US / DL flying to ILM


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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Thu May 25, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 33):
These questions are not just for Frontier. What does United do about their Mexican flights, which presently have to arrive at A? What if United wants to start DEN-LHR, or DEN-FRA? Their passengers will have to change terminals.

Denver is not really set up for ease of international arrival and transfer. Since FIS is in the main terminals. You would still have to unload the jets in at the A concourse.

However, for internation departure, it would not be a problem to have all flights leave from B for UA.

This is of course assuming that an FIS area is not built into B.
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Thu May 25, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting King (Reply 12):

F9 will not be able to acquire all of the concourse A gates right away. Under the agreement, United will give up one Concourse A gate July 1. They will surrender a second gate when their dual loading bridge project is completed on Concourse B around the middle of November. United will then return the remaining four Concourse A gates to DIA when their Concourse B regional jet facility is completed, which is expected to be in about nine months.

This is probably a good thing. Gives F9 time to ramp up.

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 14):
this is not news as far as TED moving to B. Pretty much announced months ago when UA signed the deal for dual A320 overwing jetways and specified Concourse C as the install site.

I think you mean Concourse B.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):

You also have to think the guys at Continental are scratching their heads, wondering how much their 3 gates on Concourse A might be worth.

CO has a insanely good setup in Concourse A because of their legacy rights with the airport when they were the sole tennent of Concourse A. They have over the years refused to consider leaving Concourse A.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
Um - I don't think so. CEO Potter could have signed to have the new gates built any day he wanted.

Frontier had the money in the bank for the new extension and every man and his dog - or every airline analyst and armchair CEO (inlcuding many on this site) - was telling him he must do it.

But Mr. Potter would not. He hung on for those A gates, and he got 'em. He has given Frontier room to expand at DEN, and he has done it without the addtional cost of the new gates.

F9 did quite well by this agreement. It's even better news in general for DEN where we really can start optimizing the gate capacity to deal with the traffic crunch we are hitting now.

DEN is going to have to step up for some new capacity on C however.

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 27):
As you probably recall, CO was the first carrier to sign on for DIA. They sub-leased some gates - 10 if I recall correctly - to F9. Does anyone know if that's still the case?

CO lost their primary lease on thoose gates a few years back, and F9 is now the master lease holder. CO still holds the lease on their gates, the club level, and the maintainence hanger.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 31):
If not valuable from a financial point of view, they are definately valuable from a psychological point of view. Continental's way of saying "screw you" to United. Also, I think these represent the only smart decision Frank Lorenzo ever made.

The old DEN was really a bloodbath for the carriers for a while. It usually had no less then three carriers hubbing their because of it's geographic location. After CO did the "big bang" and merged CO, PE and the old F9 DEN looked to become the central hub for the new CO.

UA and CO pushed for a new airport because of the delays, but UA upped the ante by demanding a new baggage system, and that the glass bridgeway to CO's concourse A be glazed over to keep CO's passengers from seeing the mountains.

CO bailed on the airport when they went bankrupt. Both NW and AA seriously looked at opening a hub in the new DEN, but the baggage problems scared everyone away. Finally the new F9 took CO's place.

Quoting F9Mechanic (Reply 32):
There will be some more newscome out in the next few weeks about Frontier taking over the Continental hangar, and getting their gates on A concorse. Heard that from the Continental guys here in den.

That would be great news. I think that F9 currently leases the CO hanger. CO really doesn't do enough business here to justify their huge footprint on Concourse A (their club level for example) and F9 has wanted the extra assets for a bit.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 33):
And that's it, now. There may be room to squeeze some more gates in between existing one, but any real expansion of terminal A will require serious construction.

There is also the matter of international gates. I think we have to assume the Frontier will add more international destinations - many of the Mexican flights, CUN and CZM especially, are still at capacity, even this late in the season.

These questions are not just for Frontier. What does United do about their Mexican flights, which presently have to arrive at A? What if United wants to start DEN-LHR, or DEN-FRA? Their passengers will have to change terminals.

All 4 international gates are actually common use and owned by the City of Denver. I also belive that it is not a major issue to expand A concourse international to the existing CO gates or A33 and A35.

Note that the UA/AC shares fly out of Terminal B because of Toronto's in place immegration.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 33):
So UA can't be feeling too grumpy with Frontier.

More then likely they see F9 as a buffer against WN.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 34):
Also, aren't the LH and BA gates controlled by the city? If so it shouldn't be too difficult from that standpoint to have UA go into one on an international hop, though if UA went to London wouldn't it have to be through LGW and wouldn't that also force BA to move the flight back to a LGW flight?

It shouldn't be a major problem.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
I have no idea if it is even possible to construct a FIS facility at B, but at some point, DIA going to have to come to terms with its international gate situation.

I don't think there is much of a situation here. UA (if they ever do decide to go international out of DEN, which I am skeptical of) can play ball and run their international flights out of A just like the other carriers.
 
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Thu May 25, 2006 12:41 am

United was only sitting on those A gates to prevent Frontier from taking them. There is no reason to have retardTed on those gates, especially since Ted just replaced mainline flights in markets that still had significant UA connections throughout the network, which of course left from concourse B.
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Thu May 25, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 36):
I'm quite happy doing SLC-IAH-DEN on CO for my journeys to Colorado



Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 39):
I dont frequent Colorado to any extent and when I do, I might as well take the airline of my choice. Besides, whats an extra $400?

Hell, why don't you just fly through EWR while you are at it, what's an extra $700?
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Thu May 25, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 36):
I'm quite happy doing SLC-IAH-DEN on CO for my journeys to Colorado.

That is dumb.
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RE: UA/Frontier - DEN Gates Deal Done

Thu May 25, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 45):
CO has a insanely good setup in Concourse A because of their legacy rights with the airport when they were the sole tennent of Concourse A.

Um - about three (?) years ago, in the post 9/11 doldrums when the whole A gate issue was being discussed, Continental took that same position - "we are very happy on A" - and probably would say so today.

However - then - they also implied that if a deal could be cut for the lease of the - then - huge President's lounge, they would consider moving to C.

That doesn't apply now because I believe the USO has a portion of the lounge. But, like everything, it suggests that they have a price.  

Then there is there matter of their hangar, which someone referred to above. Frontier leases Continental's hangar. Frontier wants to buy a hangar. Continental wants to sell, but the price is too high for Frontier.

So who knows where these negotiations will lead? Two years ago Frontier CEO Potter said that somehow, the hangar issue had become linked with the gates issue.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 45):
All 4 international gates are actually common use and owned by the City of Denver. I also belive that it is not a major issue to expand A concourse international to the existing CO gates or A33 and A35.

I had thought this was about the future. There are already log jams at the internationals on some days, and I cannot imagine that Frontier - or United - will reduce its services to Mexico.

To expand into Continental's gates cuts into their activity - see above - and #33/#35 cuts into JetBlue. Fine now, they don't have so many flights, but if - stress "if" - JetBlue ramps up at DEN - why not, everyone else is? - then there could be a problem.

At some point, DIA is going to have to face up to the fact that they don't have enough international gates.

Whether they see the solution as piecemeal, as you are suggesting, and limit them to A, or whether they decide they need some broader, more visionary response is the question.

mariner

[Edited 2006-05-24 18:44:48]
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