dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:02 am

Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 7:23 am

Heya,

Well reading through Airliners World i noticed an item on the Russian Regional Jet, the RRJ.

The aircraft are:

RRJ60 - Passengers = 60-63, Range = 3,204km, Range (LR) = 4,870km.

RRJ75 - Passengers = 75-78, Range = 3,265km, Range (LR) = 4,760km.

RRJ95 - Passengers = 95-98, Range = 3,050km, Range (LR) = 4,485km.

-- Orders --

Well Siberia Airlines have ordered 50 RRJ95's, there have been orders from the Russian Postal Service, 20 were ordered from UTair and a Dubai based lessor (Concord Aviation) has ordered 20. Aeroflot will have also ordered 30.

Now, to the best news. Air France, Iberia, SAS and SN Brussels Airlines are said to be very interested in the RRJ series.

If the Western airlines such as the 4 mentioned above were to place orders for over 100, between them, then would this make the RRJ the most successful Russian Built aircraft for the Western Market?

Also, do any of you have any views towards this aircraft? Personally, i think it really looks like a nice aircraft and hope mroe Western airlines buy them. They must be a competitor for the A318.

Thanks
Mike
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 7:33 am

If they manage to get good economics, a better distribution system, a transparent management and political guarantees, then I see LH as a possible customer, as well, but I am, of course, not an expert inside LH.

I think the RRJ could fit for LH, because LH needs regional jets, apparently doesn't like Embraer, and has not so many alternatives on the market.

Apart from that, as the biggest German carrier, this could also be a decision which would get a positive political response, because Germany is interested in strengthening the relations to the russian aviation industry. LH certainly is completely independent in its decisions, but still, if a decision can give positive political response, that isn't a reason against buying a plane.

LH only needs to convince its customers that a "russian" plane is as safe as a western one. We all know that is the case, but it still is a very important marketing issue.
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
LH only needs to convince its customers that a "russian" plane is as safe as a western one. We all know that is the case, but it still is a very important marketing issue.

Jesus, a BRAND NEW AIRCRAFT with a design that is similar to an Airbus and an Embraer.

If it looks similar, why should the customers need to know anymore info? Personally, if a Customer see's an aircraft that looks like one that is already flying around then they will probably assume it is an Airbus or something.

Also, how much does the average person actually look at the aircraft before boarding?

Thanks
Mike
 
visakow
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 8:14 am

I hope they are successful. I really would like to see the Russian aviation industry perform better in the western market. Would else help provide a little more diversity. This is the first I've heard of an RJ from them.
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Visakow (Reply 3):

Heya,

Well the manufacturer is Sukhoi. That is just some small info.

But, here is a webpage for you to read if you wish: http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/projects/rrj/

Thanks
Mike
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 8:28 am

"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
saturn5
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 8:45 am

It looks like Boeing is supporting this project so maybe something will come out of that.
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:02 am

RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 6):

Here is news from the page to back that up:

Quote:
28 October 2004

The Technical Council incorporating representatives of the Sukhoy Civil Aircraft and Boeing companies with advisory participation of the Snecma company adopted a resolution declaring Stage Four of the RRJ Programme to be successfully completed, which means readiness for a full-scale launch of the Programme to start production of aeroplanes. This resolution was passed following a meeting of task teams of the companies Sukhoi Civil Aircraft and Boeing, which took place in Moscow 25-28 October. The representatives of both companies reviewed the progress of work under the RRJ programme, including issues of marketing and sales, design and development, production, certification and aftersales support.

Thanks
Mike
 
saturn5
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 9:50 am

There was an interesting article on this subject in Aviation Week and Space Technology discussing Boeing's motives to participate on this project. Apparently Boeing sees a huge market in Russia for its airplanes but the obstacle is the Russian government which levies huge import duties on foreign aircraft insisting that it must protect its industrial base. The only hope for those duties to be rescinded is reviving the Russian own domestic production of some aircraft that will finally be a success and sell well among Russian carriers. Hence their (Boeing's) support for RRJ as a way to eventually gaining a share of the Russian aviation market for themselves.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 5):

Dang thing looks like an a318 and an ERJ-170 met late one night, had a bit too much jet-a and this was the blue haired offspring that resulted  spin . Looks cool thou.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 9):
Dang thing looks like an a318 and an ERJ-170 met late one night, had a bit too much jet-a and this was the blue haired offspring that resulted

So THAT'S why the A318 kept getting written up for itching around the fuel cap...
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 3:43 pm

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 8):
There was an interesting article on this subject in Aviation Week and Space Technology discussing Boeing's motives to participate on this project. Apparently Boeing sees a huge market in Russia for its airplanes but the obstacle is the Russian government which levies huge import duties on foreign aircraft insisting that it must protect its industrial base. The only hope for those duties to be rescinded is reviving the Russian own domestic production of some aircraft that will finally be a success and sell well among Russian carriers. Hence their (Boeing's) support for RRJ as a way to eventually gaining a share of the Russian aviation market for themselves.

and... Could this mean the end of perhaps some Aviation companies such as Ilyushin or Tupolov?

Thanks
Mike
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
I think the RRJ could fit for LH, because LH needs regional jets, apparently doesn't like Embraer, and has not so many alternatives on the market.

Do they really need that many new RJs these days? IMO the recent CRJ900 order and the Air One CRJ900 order plus the talk that Contact Air is getting 70-seat jets more or less points into the direction that there is no given need for a new frame.

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Thread starter):
Siberia Airlines have ordered 50 RRJ95's

That one still current? Had understood that S7 was disappointed with what Sukhoi had shown them recently and had scaled-back/cancelled their order?!?

The overall chances of this plane in the West are currently difficult to judge. What makes them very attractive is the low price tag - about 1/3 cheaper compared to the Embraers. What is absolutely necessary is the correct setup of a support network - plus passenger acceptance has to be there. Russian airframes still HAVE a negative connotation, and that's nothing which will be gone by tomorrow.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
QXatFAT
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 4:11 pm

I think the RRJ60 actually looks quite ulgy. And the RRJ95 looks to much like an Airbus. I wouldnt ride any of these in my opinion.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
CRJ900
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 12):
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
I think the RRJ could fit for LH, because LH needs regional jets, apparently doesn't like Embraer, and has not so many alternatives on the market.

Do they really need that many new RJs these days? IMO the recent CRJ900 order and the Air One CRJ900 order plus the talk that Contact Air is getting 70-seat jets more or less points into the direction that there is no given need for a new frame.

I think you are right. The LH CRJ900 will have 84 seats and the Air One CRJ900 will have 90 seats, so there will be plenty of seats available (total number of a/c ordered are 18 + 4 options so far).

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 12):
That one still current? Had understood that S7 was disappointed with what Sukhoi had shown them recently and had scaled-back/cancelled their order?!?

I read somewhere that they had scaled back their firm order to 30 aircraft from 50.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
Joost
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 5:54 pm

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 11):
and... Could this mean the end of perhaps some Aviation companies such as Ilyushin or Tupolov?

If my memory serves me right, one of these 2 companies is a partner in the RRJ program. However, I can not find information on this anymore, so I'm not a 100% certain.
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 13):
I think the RRJ60 actually looks quite ulgy. And the RRJ95 looks to much like an Airbus. I wouldnt ride any of these in my opinion.

You wouldn't ride on these two because one looks ugly and one looks like an Airbus?  Yeah sure

Soren  santahat 
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 6:13 pm

There is a report from yesterday that Sukhoi is currently talking to Dalavia, Transaero and to Pulkovo and expects to finalize orders this year. In addition they expect to sign SAS for 22 frames this year, and have Air France high up on their agenda as well. So there might be the break-through for Sukhoi this year already...
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
777way
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 6:41 pm

Airwise reports that SAS have said no to the aircraft.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 11):
and... Could this mean the end of perhaps some Aviation companies such as Ilyushin or Tupolov?

No, but the Russian government's intention to merge Mikoyan, Sukhoi, Irkut, Tupolev, Ilyushin, and Yakovlev does mean the end of those companies. Strangely enough, the new company will be called "United Aircraft."
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
visakow
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Wed May 24, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 19):
No, but the Russian government's intention to merge Mikoyan, Sukhoi, Irkut, Tupolev, Ilyushin, and Yakovlev does mean the end of those companies. Strangely enough, the new company will be called "United Aircraft."

I have read and heard the same. The Russian Government is trying to get everybody to cooperate to better compete in the foreign marketplace. IMO that is the only way they will survive. From a space & military standpoint that is a whole different ballgame.



 optimist 
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Thu May 25, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 19):



Quoting Visakow (Reply 20):

Well, thanks for those posts guys. If that is indeed true, then it MAY be a good survival tactic but in the long run will airlines buy aircraft from a company that has workers, designers, management etc. from the current Manufacturers?

The current manufacturers being unsucesfull in the West!

Thanks
Mike
 
PPVRA
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Thu May 25, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 19):



Quoting Visakow (Reply 20):

AFAIK that has already happened.

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 21):
then it MAY be a good survival tactic but in the long run will airlines buy aircraft from a company that has workers, designers, management etc. from the current Manufacturers?

The current manufacturers being unsucesfull in the West!

Might as well give it a try.

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
FlySSC
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Thu May 25, 2006 2:20 am

Even if they said to be "interested", I highly doubt to see AF, LH, or any Major West-European airline buying it.

The Russians make excellent planes, but they are new comers on that market. They would have to prove their reliability and efficiency, compared to well established Embraer and/or Bombardier (look what happens with the Tu-204, Tu-334, An-140 etc ...).
Their planes might be cheaper than Airbus or Embraer, I don't think AF/LH/SK/IB are ready to take such a big risk to add a complete new a/c type (with all the consequences) into their fleet just for this reason, when they are already well committed with their "usual" suppliers.

But there is certainly a great market for these RJ in Africa/Asia/Middle East, where some airlines are in desperate need of aircraft replacement but can't afford to buy brand new Airbus/Boeing/Embraer.
 
Tod
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Thu May 25, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 4):
the manufacturer is Sukhoi.

Along with B/E Aerospace and their Flight Structures division.

Tod
 
planespotting
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RE: Russian Regional Jet, How Will It Fair In The West

Thu May 25, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 9):
Dang thing looks like an a318 and an ERJ-170 met late one night, had a bit too much jet-a and this was the blue haired offspring that resulted

haha...i was thinking the same thing. don't think i could have stated it so..."eloquently"
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