dellatorre
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UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Fri Jun 16, 2000 8:50 am

I don´t think so. Ual have a extense agreement with Boeing on the purchasing of the B777. I think the US government would probably interfere in this kind of situation.
The American carriers aren´t really interested in the Extended version of the B777, the B777-300, neither in the A3XX. What makes them not go for this kind of aircraft. Maybe these planes aren´t profitable for most of the routes through out the country.

 
cedarjet
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Fri Jun 16, 2000 9:10 am

If UAL buy USAirways, of course they'll end up with A330s. And they'll probably keep them, at least for a while - they're perfect for Atlantic crossings and USAirways have spend a vast amount of money to handle the type. I bet they're cheaper to buy than 777s and probably cheaper to operate. I doubt the US government would intervene, not overtly anyway. If UA had a huge Airbus fleet (more than 50% of total, say), it would give the US gov't tremendous leverage in selling other US products to Europe to balance up payments. (Or not.)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Hamlet69
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Fri Jun 16, 2000 9:19 am

I highly doubt the US gov't would interfere if UA decided to buy the A330/340. Otherwise they would have done so with the A320 purchase years ago, or the US A330 purchase. OTOH, the likelihood of UA actually ordering Airbus widebodies is also rather small. With a 60+ fleet of 777's, as well as the more than likely purchase of new 777-200LRs in the next year, the possibility of a A330/340 purchase is pretty much non-existant. (Kinda like Lufthansa ordering the 777   ) Assuming the merger goes through, look for UA to quickly dispose of the US A330's, either leases to Star partners Air Canada or Thai, or completely sold, maybe back to Airbus in exchange for more A32Xs.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
dellatorre
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Fri Jun 16, 2000 9:26 am

What is the possibility of SIA in the US market?
 
Trvlr
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Fri Jun 16, 2000 12:39 pm

United would probably never buy more A330s, no matter what Lufthansa or Air Canada do, or whether or not they buy USAirways. The only reason they would is if the A330 were SUBSTANTIALLY more cost-effective on the transatlantic routes. Besides, more A330s would mean yet another type across the Atlantic and that would mean more costs. It would be better for UA to just lease the A330s to one of their mainly airbus Star partners and keep the more compatible A32X's.

Dellatorre: What do you mean? SIA flies both transatlantic and transpacific flights from the United States. Do you mean cross-country?

Aaron G.
 
Guest

RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Fri Jun 16, 2000 8:53 pm

My theory is that United will go for the A330 especially if this merger with US Airways goes through they will inherit their batch of new P&W 4000 powered A330-300s. If they are happy with their current fleet of Airbus A319s & A320s they will continue to purchase more Airbus aircraft like the A330. Also they can order them with the same P&W 4000 series engine that powers their fleet of 747s & 767s.
 
Navion
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Fri Jun 16, 2000 9:27 pm

I think the question was, "is it possible." The answer is yes. This begs the follow up question "is it likely"? I would say less likely than UA buying the 764 (if they want more capacity than a 763 but less weight than a 772). This changes each day though with all of the subtle factors affecting the airlines and their decisions.
 
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Navion

Sat Jun 17, 2000 1:48 am

I think the 767-400 like the 757-300 will be a failure, it is a late 70s early 80s design that was just lengthened to hold more passengers and is not like the 777 and Airbus A330/A340 family with new century high-tech systems and FBW.
 
woodsboy
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 1:55 am

United would be smart to select the A330 as it gives flight deck comonality with the A-319/320 as well as any and all other future Airbus aircraft. The 767-400 doesnt share that much with the older 767s and has little commonality with the narrowbody Boeing twins. The 764 does seem to be a strange variant of a design that is by now over 20 years old, not to say that you cant improve on a 20 year old design but it duplicates the capacity and range of other Boeing products. The 757-300 does the same thing, albiet a less expensive aircraft than a 767-300.

If the merger happens then the A-330 will be the obvious choice. Boeing is having a difficult time meeting deliver schedules and has had rough going as of late. Airbus is really giving them a run for their money and the US customers of the Airbus narrowbody fleet seem to be very happy with those aircraft.
 
777X
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 2:01 am

Woodsboy,

The cockpit commonality argument just doenst fly in the US - the pilots unions do not (and would not) allow pilots flying the A319/320 to fly the A330 or A340.

Saying the 757-300 and 767-300 (or 400) do the same job is ridiculous - they are designed for different routes and different loads - check your facts. I don't think you'll find any duplication in the current boeing line if you take the time to look.

They delays boeing has encountered (due to the engineers strike) would most likely not affect United's decision, unless they got much worse. Don't forget that (as others have said) United is very much for the 777, and operates a number of 767's - giving the 767/777 deriviatives a distinct advantage

my 2c

 
avion
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 2:27 am

What is the number of non-ER 777s in UAs fleet? I say the A330 has a chance on replacing those because on flights less than 8 hours it is less expensive to operate and has substantially lower seat/mile costs. The kind of Airbus commonality and Boeing commonality is not the same. Airbus narrowbodies and widebodies share more commonality than Boeings. And given UAs large fleet of the Airbus Narrowbodies the A330 would not be and odd sight?

Avion
 
D L X
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 2:55 am

But Avion, wouldn't you say that the 764 has a lot more in common with UA's current equipment than the 330? UA already has pilots that are rated to fly the 764. UA has mechs that can operate on the 764. The 330 is a new type altogether. I think the only way that UA will get 330s is if they buy them from US AIrways first.
 
avion
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 3:05 am

I agree D L X. But i do think the A330 has a slight chance because of its better range and economics and A320 mechs can also work on the A330 with minimal training. I think its 60% for the 767 ann 40% for the A330.
The A330 is not entirely out of the question.

Avion
 
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777X

Sat Jun 17, 2000 6:15 am

United will go for the A330, because they can order the P&W 4000 engine on them, they will blend in with the P&W 4000 powered 747-400s & 767-200/300s that are in their fleet. They won't go for the 777X if it has only the GE90. All of their Boeing aircraft from the 727-200 (except 737-300 & 500), to the 777-200 are all P&W powered.
 
woodsboy
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RE: Tedski

Sat Jun 17, 2000 6:37 am

Yup-
Engine commonality may even be the most important factor since the engines are a substantial cost in relation to the entire aircraft. With an entirely PW equipped fleet (except the 737s) UA can really strike a good deal for spares, maintenance and future PW purchases.

I dont care what anybody says, flight deck commonality just HAS to play a role. Would any airline purposfully not make use of the common Airbus flight deck and cross training opportunities if they were going to have a significant part of the fleet be Airbus? Seems to be totally ridiculous to not make use of this very convenient aspect of Airbus aircraft.

 
Guest

RE: Engine Commonality In UA's Fleet

Sat Jun 17, 2000 7:14 am

Not all of United's fleet is PW powered. The A319 & A320 have IAE V2500s, the 737-3/500 have CFM56s (I know, already mentioned), and the DC10s have GE CF6s (even though they'll be gone soon).
 
Guest

RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 7:23 am

Isn't PW an IAE partner?
 
PresRDC
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 7:23 am

Remember that United quickly disposed of the L-1011s it acquired from Pan Am when it bought that carrier's specific routes. Operating oo many a/c types cost too much money and is inefficent. As such, United will not operate them for long if at all. It just doesn't make much sense.
 
Trvlr
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 9:36 am

I hate to say this, but IMHO if the merger w/UsAir goes through then the A330s will be the odd man out and will be the first planes to go. Although they may be somewhat useful at first, what is really the use of having a small number of A330s, which are for the most part related only to the domestic A320s (excluding the engines) flying international routes? Airbus-trained crews would have to be put overseas for work on UA's A330s when they would be most useful maintaining the A32X's back in N. America? The routes that the A330 would operate if it was integrated into UA's fleet system would probably be in Europe and South America. I suppose UA's Star Partners (i.e. British Midland, Lufthansa, Austrian Air Group) could overtake the maintenance in Europe, but what about South America? Varig does not have any Airbus products and the two main Airbus operators in South America, Aerolineas Argentinas and TAM, are all leaning towards American and Oneworld as their alliance partners.
Pilots may also be an issue. I am not an expert (and anyone who is please clarify me), but I think it would not fly with the unions if A320 pilots suddenly were told to fly internationally on A330s. Isn't there a scope clause or something? Unless United trained pilots that were meant to fly Airbus products internationally, which would not happen unless United wanted to base all their future aircraft orders around Airbus, the A330s will have a hard time getting people to fly them.
That is my opinion on the future of the A330 in United's fleet if the merger goes through. I realize it may not be that well-informed, but I am only a 14-year old and would need some experience working at an actual airline if I wanted to get a full grasp of this issue.

Aaron G.

 
Guest

PH-BZA

Sat Jun 17, 2000 11:17 am

Pratt & Whitney is a partner of International Aero Engines along with Rolls Royce. The V2500 resembles a version of the Rolls Royce RB211?
 
Guest

HawaiiB777

Sat Jun 17, 2000 11:26 am

As I said in the previous message, P&W is a partner of IAE, so United's V2500 A319s & A320s can be considered P&W & Rolls Royce powered. Plus I said BOEING aircraft, not McDonnell Douglas, I know their DC-10s are GE CF6 powered.
 
Flaps
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 11:45 am

I believe that the A330 could play a significant role in United's fleet but only if United is looking for a 767 replacement. The A332 would be outstanding in this role but I doubt that United is ready to start replacing the 767's. More likely The A330-300's would be leased out or sold and the options converted to the A319/320.

Equally intriquing is the fate of the US A321 order. The 757 has a much better payload/range and hot/high performance. The A321 would really struggle in Denver although it is well suited to the north-south networks on both coasts. Quite frankly I was very surprised that US ordered it for transcon routes. Even the high gross weight version reminds me an awful lot of the DC-9-50. If you have ever flown one of those off of a 7500 foot runway with a heavy load on a 95 degree day you'll know what I mean.
 
Trvlr
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sat Jun 17, 2000 12:03 pm

I wondered about the US A321 order too. I guess that they just did not want to order from Boeing and that the A321 was the closest thing!  

Aaron G.
 
Guest

RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 12:37 am

If this merger goes through with United & US Airways, will United keep the order for the A321? They will blend in with the A319s & A320s that United already has, so there will be no problem training flight crews already flying the A319/A320. If the engine has been selected, it will probably be the IAE V2500 that powers United's A319s & A320s.
 
Trvlr
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 1:21 am

IHMO that will be the second type to go after the A330s. I think they would just want to order more 757s if UA wanted a plane near that size. And I bet Boeing would give them a hell of a deal as well. (A la Singapore Airlines, perhaps?)

Aaron G.
 
avion
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 2:01 am

I think A321 could be useful for UA. The new A321 is perfect to do high-density short hops and some shorter trans-cons while the 757s could be kept for the longest routes served by them today. The A321 weighs less and has better seat mile costs and is better suited to shorter range operations where the 757 is too heavy. I feel they will keep the order.

Avion
 
D L X
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 2:47 am

TEDSKI, there you go again, man! No airline will pick a new type because it shares engines. Engines are significant, but the airframe itself is much more costly to purchase and operate. Engine commonality will always take a back seat to airframe commonality.

UAL will not buy 330s just because they have PW powerplants.

And Avion, my argument stands. UA currently has mechanics that can work on the 764. Please tell me you don't think the cost of using these mechs is more than the cost of training mechs on the differences between 320 and 330, and then using 320 mechs...

 
Guest

RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 2:49 am

The A321 would be great on United's ALB to O'Hare route to replace the 727 & 737 where the 757 is not suited for.
 
Guest

DLX

Sun Jun 18, 2000 3:16 am

United won't select the 767-400 either! This is an old design that was just made longer to hold more passengers. It doesn't have the state of the art 21st Century systems like the 777 & A330/A340 family have.
 
avion
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 3:19 am

D L X: I totally agree with you. The A330 has only a small chance with UA. But i do believe the A321 could do well with UA.

Avion
 
Hamlet69
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 9:15 am

I'm surprised no one has brought up the possibility of the 777-100X. The rumors I keep hearing is that if this plan does make it past Boeing's board, the launch customer's will be:

Singapore
ILFC
Northwest
United

Now, admitedly, that is only a rumor so far, but I've heard it from several people (even some that aren't connected to the internet   )

I was curious what everyone thought: If you were on Boeing's board, would you chose 767-400ERX or 777-100X? Remember you have to make money, so go on costs/economics, not just personal feelings.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Trvlr
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 12:52 pm

TEDSKI: IT DOES!! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!!!
Ok maybe too harsh but the 764 has all new technology which is as good as, if not better than the 777 or A330/A340 family, because it was designed later, not before them! Boeing did not just slap a few fuselage sections onto a 763 when they made the 764! It has state of the art electronics and avionics systems, and a WHOLE NEW WING! Just because an aircraft's shape resembles its predecessor does not mean its performance stats and levels of passenger comfort are the same!

Hamlet69: Now I would choose the 777X. but I'd have to look at how well it performs at certain distances and how many passengers it carries (the same, I guess).

Aaron G.
 
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sammyk
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 1:49 pm

As a Boeing board member, I would have to look at my customer base and see what airframe makes the most sense to them. If the interested parties are mostly already 777 operators, then the 771 would get the nod, if they are mostly 767 operators, then the 764X would get the nod. Now in my opinon, since there is a customer base of both 767 and 777 operators, I would launch both.

Sammy
 
cedarjet
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Sun Jun 18, 2000 8:38 pm

Trvlr, I don't know how much you know about the 767-400 cockpit, but the facts may come as something of a disappointment. The 767-400 is designed to be flown by 767-rated crews. So there was very little Boeing could do without elevating the cockpit out of the standard 767 type-rating. So while there might be newer versions of some of the avionics, it is the same cockpit as before. Maybe the CRTs do a few sexy things they didn't before, but an A330 (or 777) it most certainly ain't.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Trvlr
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RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:38 am

I guess I am talking about the how recent the electronics that went into it were; they certainly aren't vacuum tubes! But the point is, the earliest 762 is not the same as the newest 764.

Aaron G.
 
Guest

RE: UAL A330-200/300 Is Possible?

Mon Jun 19, 2000 6:54 am

If the 767-400 is such a terrific plane, then why isn't it selling in large numbers like the A330/A340 & 777? Why did 767 customers like US Airways, LTU & Air France order the A330 instead of the 767-400? Why only 2 US airlines, Delta & Continental order it?
 
D L X
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Tedski

Mon Jun 19, 2000 11:02 am

TEDSKI, the 767-400 is a derivative of the shorter 300, correct. But, by that argument, who in their right mind would order the 330 or 340? They're just derivatives of the 300, right? (Answer: yes.)

Don't just say the 764 is a dog when it hasn't sold so many yet. It hasn't even had its first delivery! The game ain't over.

However, with that said, it still is an issue that the first version 764 probably won't sell as well as its Airbus counterpart the 330-200 because the range is a problem. That will be fixed in the upcoming 767-400ER versions. Then you can judge.

Also note that like the 737NG, the new 764 got a computerized glass cockpit in the same style as the 777 and 747-400. It is well known that a common type rating for all the Boeings in on the drawing board. Don't you think that will be easy to implement now that almost all the types have SOFTWARE controlled cockpit displays?

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