kiwiandrew

Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?

Sun May 28, 2006 9:14 pm

Although there are a lot of threads relating to Bermuda 2 I couldn't see the question I was looking for under them so here goes ....

Flights between the UK and US by UK and US carriers are governed by the Bermuda 2 agreement which , amongst other things , specifies that some destinations can be served from LON via LHR ( eg LAX , SFO , ORD etc ) but some can only be served from LGW ( eg ATL , IAH , DFW ect ) .

There are a number of airlines operating 5th freedom services between LON and US ( NZ / AI / KU - I think , not sure if LY still does or not )

so , my hypothetical question is :

are those rights governed by BII , or not . If not , could NZ for example choose to switch their LAX-LHR service to another airport such as DFW/ IAH / ATL etc from which neither UK nor US carriers can fly into LHR . Before anyone starts flaming me , I repeat this is hypothetical , I am not saying that they would or should ... just asking whether in theory they could

any of you BII experts out there know ??

( apologies in advance if this has been answered before )
 
ORDagent
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RE: Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?

Mon May 29, 2006 1:34 am

BII did allow 5'th freedom rights for two U.S. flad carriers. At one time UA and TW had beyond flights with local rights just like in Japan. I think only they were allowed. I'm not 100% of fith freedom but I know I changed planes on UA to AMS out of Chicago about ten years ago.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?

Mon May 29, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 1):
BII did allow 5'th freedom rights for two U.S. flad carriers. At one time UA and TW had beyond flights with local rights just like in Japan. I think only they were allowed. I'm not 100% of fith freedom but I know I changed planes on UA to AMS out of Chicago about ten years ago.

sorry , I guess my topic is a bit clumsily worded - I meant non-US/UK carriers operating 5th freedom flights between US-UK vv rather than US carriers with 5th freedom rights beyone UK
 
N1120A
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RE: Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?

Mon May 29, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
sorry , I guess my topic is a bit clumsily worded - I meant non-US/UK carriers operating 5th freedom flights between US-UK vv rather than US carriers with 5th freedom rights beyone UK

I got what you were saying. The 5th freedom rights of non-US/UK flag carriers are governed by the bilaterals those carriers have signed with the US and UK individually. For example, NZ has rather broad 5th freedom rights with both countries and can fly to LHR as long as it has the slots (which is why they used to fly to FRA as opposed to LHR from LAX). The case where this becomes the most interesting is with AC. Under the new US/Canada bilateral, the two countries have essentially open skies when it comes to flights to non-domestic points. Further, as a member of the Commonwealth, Canadian carriers, particularly Air Canada, enjoy special rights at LHR. What is really interesting and untested about that is that Air Canada can potentially get around the BII rules and use LHR slots to do US-LHR flights from non-LHR gateways
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COSPN
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RE: Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?

Mon May 29, 2006 6:29 pm

?? So AC could operate SYD-LAX-LHR ???
 
cslusarc
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?

Tue May 30, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting Cospn (Reply 4):
?? So AC could operate SYD-LAX-LHR ???

Nope, but I would expect AC is thinking about YVR-JFK-LHR or something like that.
--cslusarc from YWG
 
Gemuser
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RE: Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?

Tue May 30, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
Further, as a member of the Commonwealth, Canadian carriers, particularly Air Canada, enjoy special rights at LHR

Really? Care to provide more details, please?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
What is really interesting and untested about that is that Air Canada can potentially get around the BII rules and use LHR slots to do US-LHR flights from non-LHR gateways

Of course AC can get round BII, it does not apply to them!

Gemuser
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cricket
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:23 pm

RE: Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?

Tue May 30, 2006 9:50 pm

Given that India now has a fairly liberal ASA with both the US and the UK, is it possible for AI to offer service to points other than JFK (AI 101/102 BOM-LHR-JFK) in the US. say a BOM-LHR-ATL or BOM-LHR-IAH sort of service?
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Nimish
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RE: Non US/UK 5th Freedom Under BII?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 7):
is it possible for AI to offer service to points other than JFK (AI 101/102 BOM-LHR-JFK) in the US. say a BOM-LHR-ATL or BOM-LHR-IAH sort of service?

Not very sure, but I think B2 basically sealed AI's fate at whetever it was already operating. I don't think new services are possible.
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