LH492
Topic Author
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:14 am

Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 2:39 am

Hi,

I made an exchange year in Vancouver and since I love planes, I visited the airport nearly every weekend.
When sitting around, watching the planes come and go I saw something strange, a CX 747 was on final for the runway (I do not know which one) and like one minute before touchdown, the plane banked to the right and established for a landing on the parallel runway. I thought there might have been a problem with the original runway and that this would not be a normal procedure but during the following month I saw it many times again.
I am curious since I never saw this before (maybe because I do not live near an airport with a parallel runway system) but any info is appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
cheers,
Philipp
Carpe Diem, Seize The Day
 
swissgabe
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:57 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting LH492 (Thread starter):
I am curious since I never saw this before (maybernbecause I do not live near an airport with a parallel runway system)rnbut any info is appreciated.

Not sure how you definern"last second". There are some airports where pilot approach a runwayrnand then do a sidestep to another runway. This doesn't really happen inrnthe last second but lets say 30s or a minute before touch down. In ZRH eg. flights approached RWY16 and then turned into RWY14 iso. This has been done a few times earlier but not anymore.

In case of an emergency or when there is a problem with the approached runway, the would in most cases, if not in all, do a go-around.
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
User avatar
freakydeaky
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 3:12 am

Mostly it's because the other runway came available for landing and it was closer to where they were going to park. Less taxiing.
"Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could."
 
User avatar
SLCUT2777
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 3:19 am

At SLC I was getting ready to take off on 16L and a front passed and the wind changed direction, so hence the DL 752 had to make the long two mile taxi down to the other end to runway 34R. It added 20 minutes to the 4 hours of flight time to ATL.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
TWAtwaTWA
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:18 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting LH492 (Thread starter):
When sitting around, watching the planes come and go I saw something strange, a CX 747 was on final for the runway (I do not know which one) and like one minute before touchdown, the plane banked to the right and established for a landing on the parallel runway.

You bring up a very interesting topic.

One week ago, I was on board an AA 737-800 from YYZ on final for LAX, approaching (westbound) the south end of the airport. There are two runways that are parallel on the south side: 7R/25L and 7L/25R. About 30 sec before touch down, there was a wide bank right and then left, and to me it seemed like we switched from 7R/25L to 7L/25R at "the last second".

I know that at LAX the 7R/25L and 7L/25R runway arrangement has been subject to some debate, and there are plans to relocate the runway 55 feet south, to improve safety, and to finalize preparations for the A380.
http://www.lawa.org/news/newsDisplay.cfm?newsID=774
We're your kind of airline. Uh, I mean, We *were* your kind of airline.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 4:31 am

Actually, moving LAX 7R/25L 55' south is not because of the A-380. The FAA has been concerned about the south side runway spacing at LAX for about 30 years now. Parellel runways in the US require 1200' spacing (centerline to centerline) between the runways. LAX has 1145' spacing on the south runway complex, so the "relocating" is really required. LAX was allowed to keep the present arrangement, with a wavier from the FAA, until it was time to replace the runway. That is what they are really doing, they are replaceing it with a new runway, that will be properly aligned.
 
phelpsie87
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:41 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 4:34 am

To me it sounds like a side-step approach clearance. I remember at APA a while back, runway 35R was out of service and Denver Approach was clearing the aircraft for the ILS 35R, side-step 35L. Which means you fly the ILS and then switch to the other runway and land on it. I don't have time now, but check NOTAMS for the airport.
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Parellel runways in the US require 1200' spacing (centerline to centerline) between the runways. LAX has 1145' spacing on the south runway complex,

Where'd you hear 1145 ft? The runway lat-lons at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov and http://www.airnav.com imply spacing of less than 750 ft, and as I recall the USGS map bears that out.
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 5:01 am

As for Vancouver, it seems 26R and 26L are 5800+ feet apart at their east ends, and 5600+ at the west ends. Wonder how close you can be and still do that "sidestep"?
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2567
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 8:10 am

SFO is notorious for switching between 28R to 28L. No need to cross 28L then. Often times it's the UA pilots that request this because obviously they are the most familiar.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 6:41 pm

yes, such a maneuver is everything but uncommon. once happened to me while i had the chance to stay with the flight deck crew (when that was still permissible). beautiful approach into NCE (approaching NCE is a treat)), switching the runways like 30 sec or so before touchdown, awesome!
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
User avatar
tjwgrr
Posts: 2042
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:09 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 8:15 pm

See it at EWR all the time too. 22R / 4L closer to the terminals.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
christao17
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:14 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 9):
SFO is notorious for switching between 28R to 28L. No need to cross 28L then. Often times it's the UA pilots that request this because obviously they are the most familiar.

Very common at SFO as the runways are quite close together so it is easy to do. The inboard runway (28L) is usually used for depatures but if there is nobody departing the pilot might request to switch. This has happened to me many times there as well as from time to time in PHX and LAX.

If I'm not mistaken, if it is "last minute" the request will only be granted if the pilot is flying a visual approach.
Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Mon May 29, 2006 9:44 pm

This happened to me on a NW DC-9 on approach to MDW. Just before landing we banked hard to the right, flew by the airport, then banked hard left to line up with a runway (no parellel runways at MDW) just before landing. It scared the sh_t out of me. I asked the pilot about it and he said another plane had been accidentally cleared to take off on the same runway right before he landed, he didn't seem happy about it. I don't know how low we were, but it was so low you could read the billboards on the ground.
 
dc10rules
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:41 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 13):
(no parellel runways at MDW

MDW runways 13/31 L/C/R and 4/22 L/R
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 12:44 am

These are the things that show you how skillful the pilots really are.
rolf
 
phelpsie87
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:41 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 8):
Wonder how close you can be and still do
that "sidestep"?

I am looking all over the 7110.65, but so far, I cannot find anything that tells me the procedures. However, after a little internet search, I found this.

Side Step-
A. Visual maneuver at the completion of an instrument approach which allows straight-in landing minimums on a parallel runway not more than 1200 feet to either side of the approach runway.
B. Pilot should execute sidestep maneuver as soon as possible after the runway or runway environment is in sight.

http://www.aviation.uiuc.edu/main/un...k/AVI130/BillJonesWeb/apptype.html

Quoting United787 (Reply 13):
(no parellel runways at MDW)

Really? I must be a little crazy, because last time I checked, every runway had a parallel...
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00081AD.PDF
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 7):

Where'd you hear 1145 ft? The runway lat-lons at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov and http://www.airnav.com imply spacing of less than 750 ft, and as I recall the USGS map bears that out.

He's saying centerline to centerline spacing. Maybe your numbers are for the unused space between the runways only.
rolf
 
FlightShadow
Posts: 1060
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:43 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 2:11 am

I see this happen once every few times I'm up at SLC, something will be coming in for 34L and it'll suddenly hop onto 34R's approach path - usually no more than a minute out, sometimes less. It is very cool to see a plane bug out and head for a different approach so close in. My guess would be either FOD or someone taking too long to get off the runway (in effect, also FOD  biggrin  )
"When the tide goes out, you can tell who was skinnydipping."
 
eham
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:00 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 2:16 am

It's a quite common procedure @ Amsterdam Schiphol, where (mostly) smaller airplanes brake off to rwy 24 for landing when following the ILS for rwy 27.
 
darrenthe747
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:40 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 2:29 am

in my 3 years stationed at EDDF in the Air Force, I witnessed probably 10 or so total "side-steps." some would happen indeed very close to the runways, no more htan 60 seconds from touchdown, others might happen a bit further out. but it was quite exhilerating watching a 747 do a sidestep 60 seconds from touchdown.
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
 
jspitfire
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:50 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 2:59 am

Aircraft do sidestep to the other runway fairly often at YVR. At YVR the north runway is usually used for arrivals, and the South runway for departures. So my guess would be that they line the aircraft up for the north runway (26R), and then if there is a break in departures on the south runway (26L), then they can sidestep the aircraft over so that they have a shorter taxi distance.

Jason
 
Morvious
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:36 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting Eham (Reply 19):
It's a quite common procedure @ Amsterdam Schiphol, where (mostly) smaller airplanes brake off to rwy 24 for landing when following the ILS for rwy 27.

Or offcourse the better work, the cargo planes for both Martinair and KLM cargo ramps.
You can normally tell from the hight they approach rwy 27. Planes that do the brakeoff, are comming in a little higher then a normal ILS rwy 27 approach.

Great to watch!
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 17):
Quoting Timz (Reply 7):

Where'd you hear 1145 ft? The runway lat-lons at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov and http://www.airnav.com imply spacing of less than 750 ft, and as I recall the USGS map bears that out.


He's saying centerline to centerline spacing.

Yup, he probably is. But the actual centerline spacing is a bit less than 750 ft.
 
AADC10
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 7:26 am

I was listening to UA ch. 9 on an evening approach to LAX and a couple of minutes before landing, the pilot requested switching to the (departure) right runway. It sounded like this was because we were in a heavy and it would allow the other UA planes behind us to land sooner.
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1503
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 7:56 am

I spot at YVR all the time with two scanners in my hand so I can share a few things that I know of when side-stepping there.

If that CX bird was on approach to RWY 26L, he would definetely must have got ATC clearance to approach 26R. That way, the gate is much closer

If a Westjet is on approach to 26R/08L, they would always try to side-step. That is because their Alpha gates are much closer to 26L/08R.

In the summer, NAV Canada planes always do an ILS check on one of the rwys. So one parallel rwy often gets closed on weekends.

I doubt that you were there at night time, but 26R/08L always gets closed after 10 pm. This is to avoid causing noise to people in Richmond (I think)

Also, bird-strikes in YVR are quite common since the land next to YVR is a bird sanctuary.

I witnessed a jazz landing on 26R, hitting a bird shortly after landing.

YVR tower said: Jazz xxxx, it seems that you had a bird strike

JAZZ: Yes sir, we have fried-chicken

YVR tower: Jazz xxxx, turn left on M-3 and hold on Mike txwy

Then he diverted the Mexicana plane right behind it to 26L.

So it might have been one of these reasons
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
sccutler
Posts: 5603
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 12:42 pm

Side-steps are, of course, only allowable in visual conditions, and are in most circumstances non-events.

They may be done to accommodate trailing traffic, in alleviate ground bottlenecks, or simply because the pilot requested the other runway "if available" to reduce taxi times.

I got one at Ellington (KEFD) once, to accommodate a T38 behind me (an astronaut, no doubt); cost me 5 minutes extra taxi time, no big deal.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Tue May 30, 2006 12:53 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 26):
Side-steps are, of course, only allowable in visual conditions,

As somebody pointed out in the other thread, EWR has side-step minimums on the chart for the ILS to 4R. It was news to me, but it seems that's not uncommon.
 
Olympus69
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 11:21 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 12:46 am

I saw this happen at YYZ a couple of weeks ago, for an unusual reason. A Dash 8 was on short final for 33L with a 'heavy' behind him. 33R was being used for departures. The tower controller evidently was not too happy with the spacing between the two planes so he asked the Dash 8 if he could sidestep to 33R, which he did. The distance between the two runways is about 4,000 feet and the threshold of 33R is about 2000 feet closer on approach than 33L, so the D8 had to make a fairly abrupt right/left manoeuvre.
I guess the controller thought the sidestep would be easier for the D8, even though the 744 behind had more time to switch runways.
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 2:40 am

Happens every day at PHX between 25 L/R and 7 L/R. Frequently this will be part of the normal approach proceedure (Ie, line up for XXX and side step to rwy XXY 1 mile from landing) for noise abatement or obstruction avoidance. The rest of the time it is due to proximety of a closer runway.
The GoodDoctor
 
flyabunch
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 2:55 am

There is a variation on this idea that has taken place at some airports. I am familiar with Southwest getting their hands slapped at TPA for lining up for the east runway when the west runway is the one in use. Their main reason was that it was closer to their terminal. TPA and the FAA both told them to stop the practice. If I remember correctly, it was about three years ago.

Mike
 
phelpsie87
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:41 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 29):
Frequently this will be part of the normal approach proceedure (

Your exactly right. Often, you will hear something like, "XXX123 Cleared ILS Runway 25R Approach, side step runway 25L, contact tower xxx.xx at the outer marker."

As I have tried to explain, this is a common practice and not really a huge deal.
 
chase
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:02 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting DC10rules (Reply 14):

MDW runways 13/31 L/C/R and 4/22 L/R

Yes, but from http://www.faa.gov/ATS/asc/publications/95_ACE/Chap_03.pdf:
Current procedures consider parallel runways
separated by less than 2,500 feet as a single
runway during IFR operations.
 
symphonik
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:52 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 9):
SFO is notorious for switching between 28R to 28L. No need to cross 28L then. Often times it's the UA pilots that request this because obviously they are the most familiar.

Yeah, I hear this a fair amount on Channel 9 when I'm inbound to SFO.
 
phelpsie87
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:41 pm

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting Chase (Reply 32):
Yes, but from http://www.faa.gov/ATS/asc/publicati....pdf:

Not working for me, but that's beside the point. We are talking about the "side-step" maneuver which can only be done in VFR conditions.

From FAA.gov (7110.65):
Side-step Maneuver. When authorized by an instrument approach procedure, you may clear an aircraft for an approach to one runway and inform the aircraft that landing will be made on a parallel runway.
EXAMPLE-
"Cleared I-L-S Runway seven left approach. Side-step to runway seven right."
NOTE-
Side-step maneuvers require higher weather minima/ MDA. These higher minima/MDA are published on the instrument approach charts.

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0408.html
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 30):
I am familiar with Southwest getting their hands slapped at TPA for lining up for the east runway when the west runway is the one in use. Their main reason was that it was closer to their terminal. TPA and the FAA both told them to stop the practice.

You're saying ATC cleared Southwest flights for the approach to the west runway and they ignored him, deciding they liked the east runway better? And that was their regular practice?
 
flyabunch
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 35):
You're saying ATC cleared Southwest flights for the approach to the west runway and they ignored him, deciding they liked the east runway better? And that was their regular practice?

I do not remember the specifics of how it worked, but my impression was that they would drift over that way on approach and if they didn't get noticed, then they would just land and get chastised. I do not think there were any cases where a dangerous collision was imminent, they only did it when the east runway wasn't really being used at all.

I think the controllers always caught them just before landing...when it was too late to jump back to the other side. They would then go ahead and tell them to land on the runway they were in front of. I do remember that the report that was in the paper kept if very light and didn't indicate that there were any safety issues, just some WN pilots in a hurry.

Mike
 
flyabunch
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: Switching Runways At The Last Second?

Wed May 31, 2006 9:10 am

I found the article in the St. Petersburg Times archives. Here is the link and selected text. I had the details wrong in the previous post. It seems that they were asking for a sidestep due to being too close to the plane in front. Instead, they should have executed a missed approach.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/...Noise+violations+vex+TIA+officials

quoted text:
"Southwest pilots sometimes tell controllers they are too close to the airline in front of them and must sidestep to runway 36R, Miller said. If they really are too close, he said, the only alternative to approving the sidestep is for controllers to order the airliner to execute a "missed approach" and go around to try landing again, a maneuver that could cost 10 to 15 extra minutes.

Miller said he suspects Southwest pilots are motivated to request sidesteps because the airline operates out of Airside A, a much shorter taxi from runway 36R. Saving taxi time could improve the airline's record for getting planes in and out of the airport within 20 minutes, a key to Southwest's success."

Mike

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos