ArtieFufkin
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Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 3:32 am

If I'm reading this report correctly, (slides 18-19) European short haul unit costs are more than double US costs. 15.54 US cents per ASK versus 7 cents. Converting 1 Euro to $1.274 . (Average of 3 largest carriers in each region)

Very surprising. I knew there was a gap, didn't expect such a large one.


http://www.iata.org/NR/rdonlyres/4CC...stry_Outlook_Presenation_Mar06.pdf
 
ikramerica
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 3:38 am

What makes you say Euro short haul flights are quality? I'm not expert as I've only flown a few "domestic" Euro flights (ZRH-GVA, NCE-BRU, ZRH-LHR), but found them no better than US domestic flights.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ArtieFufkin
Topic Author
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 3:40 am

I'm just going by what the Europeans told me here...LOL.
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 5:42 am

I don't have many reference points either, but what I have seen so far:

Southwest: Lots of leg room + Peanuts

Luftansa (737-300 ) : Least amount of leg room I have ever seen on any airline + stale sandwich.

If I'm hungry, I'd take the Luftansa. Luftansa FA are also very professional, so if you don't like singing in the aisle I guess that is a plus, but I kind of like the San Diego / Southwest attitude of WN, reminds me of being on a beach somewhere.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 5:54 am

Depends... if you look at European seating plans, a lot of the aircraft is Business Class. They tend to sell a lot larger amount of Business Class seats than other airlines. That said, the service is generally superb. They tailor to their market. While there is a discount airline trend in Europe, a lot of people pay a premium and the airlines take advantage of that.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
ozglobal
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 6:35 am

Service on short haul is of little importance. How long do you get to experience it: 45min to 3hrs-ish at cruising altitude? Having said that, just did CDG-Berlin return in C class and Venice-CDG in Y on AF and service on both was very professional. Same goes for BA (once in the air; don't get me started on BA at CDG).

Service REALLY matters on very long haul. For me that's 8 to 24hrs or more. Perhaps some of you only do short haul. In that case, I would say price and convenience of schedule are the most important (understanding that RyanAir and their likes are not to be considered - false economy!).

In regard to long haul, US airlines are not considered top 20 by many traveller: Asian, Australian, Middle-Eastern and European airlines just do it so much better.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
vega
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 4):
Depends... if you look at European seating plans, a lot of the aircraft is Business Class.

That is a good point and one which U.S. airlines have yet to discover. Charge Business Class fares for Economy Size seats.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
satx
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 9:04 am

If you're talking LCC's, I'd strongly prefer WN, F9, or B6 over U2, FR, AK and the like. Anybody else agree?
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
bestpilot
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 7:49 pm

The LCC idea was invented in the United States and like everything invented here, it was taken and imitated overseas.
 
Koper
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 8:09 pm

Not everything has been invented in the USA. For sure the USA has given the world a lot in the last century.. but i don't think Leonardo Da Vinci, Galileo, Voltaire, Guglielmo Marconi or others were Americans.
 
EI321
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 8:15 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
If you're talking LCC's, I'd strongly prefer WN, F9, or B6 over U2, FR, AK and the like. Anybody else agree?

Yes but you would have to compare them on prices. Ive never seen any a US airline offer fares as low as 0.01 like Ryanair frequently does. Ryanair actually gives away free seats in some cases. I have had dreadful experiences more than once on AirTran for instance.
 
bestpilot
Posts: 78
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 8:38 pm

Quoting Koper (Reply 9):
Not everything has been invented in the USA.

If you read my post carefully, you will notice that I did not suggest that everything was invented in the USA. Hell, how could that be possible? The USA has only been around a couple centuries!

Sorry, EI321, but I'm going to pick you apart. Here we go:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 10):
Yes but you would have to compare them on prices. Ive never seen any a US airline offer fares as low as 0.01 like Ryanair frequently does.



0.01 Euro, eh? Not with all the fees that Ryanair likes to add. You end up paying 30 or 40 euro. Still, to be fair, cheap fares. WN doesn't offer fares that low anymore... 39 bucks one way used to be the craze in the mid-90's. No more. Fare-wise, FR beats any US LCC.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 10):
Ryanair actually gives away free seats in some cases.

In some cases, so does WN, F9, UA, US, AA, NW, DL...

Quoting EI321 (Reply 10):
I have had dreadful experiences more than once on AirTran for instance.

For instance, what? The fact that you had a "dreadful experience more than once on AirTran" is an example of what? If you meant to just include that piece of trivia, then that's nice to know. Anecdotal evidence about bad trips/poor service/total travel terror exists about any airline.
 
HBJZA
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Mon May 29, 2006 8:52 pm

The difference is that in the US you could fly up to 6 hours (or even more) and still be flying domestic. In Europe each country has its own domestic market and all the rest are international flights. I guess US airlines have set a standard of service for the length of a flight lets say for example : why would they make a different service on a JFK-HNL (approx. 8 hours ?) than on a JFK-ZRH (approx 7 hours ?). If you fly out of Europe for more than 6 hours, you'll sure be out of the continent.....So it's easier for european airlines to set better service for long haul.
 
phatty3374
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Tue May 30, 2006 3:56 am

I happen to think that US domestic is in many cases better (in terms of comfort) than Intra-EU flights. I think that categorizing European as "quality" and American as "value" is not correct. Just compare United to Air France. On United's narrowbody fleet (737's and A32x's, not regionals) there is always a Business and/or First section with actual business class seats, whereas on Air France's narrowbody fleet, there is a section sold as "business," but the seats are simply economy seats with a blocked off center seat.

Food United vs. Air France is another issue! but I believe that is more of a cultural difference than anything.

I agree with HBJZA in that it is slightly easier for European carriers to set better longhaul service, but that still doesn't mean that American First/Business has to be the way that it is now! When all of the majors get out of the bankruptcy issue (hopefully), I think that Americans will begin to see things like AVOD in all classes and eventually a better First/Business class product.

Regards,

Tom
 
workhorse
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Tue May 30, 2006 5:38 am

Well, I cannot boast billions of miles on different carriers all over the world, but from my experience as a moderate US and European Y traveller I may say the following:

1) US legacies don't stand near European legacies be it on domestic or international. On AF, even for a ORY-MPL, which is roughly a 1 hour flight, I get a free drink, a free newspaper and, some times of the day, a free sandwich. On US legacies you have to pay for a damn sandwich on a 5 hour flight!

Same for transatlantic: free booze and possibility at any time to walk to the rear of the aircraft to have a drink and a chat with FAs on AF. On US legacies, pay for the booze, don't get up unless it's to go to WC... Once on a US flight (before the HP merger), my mother asked for a blanket, they said "there's no more left" and didn't care. On AF, they would at least make excuses and probably try do do something.

2) Concerning LCCs, it's a whole different story. Compare B6 with FR: it's another world.

To resume this in one line, travel with legacies in Europe, with LCC's in the US and with European carriers on transatlantic.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Tue May 30, 2006 5:48 am

ACMI + Fuel, Infrastructure is what makes the difference. Then don't forget that employees in Europe are much more expensive to maintain than in the USA, as well as other miscellaneous costs should tend to be significantly higher in Europe. It's not so much the service IMHO.

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
hjulicher
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Tue May 30, 2006 7:22 pm

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 14):
Same for transatlantic: free booze and possibility at any time to walk to the rear of the aircraft to have a drink and a chat with FAs on AF

That's really strange, because I've experienced only the opposite. Especially from Russians, including Aeroflot and DL. In fact, on my last flight to Moscow, I was happily talking to an American FA on Delta, and we were having a great conversation, then came the Russian FA working for DL, and asked me to go take my seat.

Usually I fly with NW though, and I have to say, that they have some of the best FA's. Maybe not every FA on every flight, but on int. travelling, NW seems to set itself apart from the others, especially with their new A330 product. I've even had europeans who fly with NW be really surprised with their service. In fact, meals are equally good whether it be on Air France or NW in economy. First is slightly different. The food on a J fare in First class on AF I will agree is better, but the difference isn't huge.

I often have to fly SVO-AMS (KL) or SVO-CDG (AF) and I find that thier service is really no better that what you get on us airlines. The seats are the same, the only difference is that you get fed, (and better since the flight is the longest within Europe) Also, SU offers superior service than AF, or KL because they really do offer a business class, and economy class has better room than their competitors.

In fact, now that SU is in Skyteam, I prefer to fly with them then any other airline. I can even get access to their club within the airport, and I'm only silver with NW.

The one thing that I really don't like about US airlines, is that on longer flights, transUS, you don't get fed, but you can purchase a snack. In fact, I don't mind the fact that you have to purchase it, because it isn't ridiculously expensive, but it's the fact that there isn't a real meal served. Sure, for shorter flights, the snack box is okay, but for longer ones, they should offer some type of meal service, even if you have to pay for it.

I know that you can always purchase something at the airport, but I can't predict hunger all the time, but I don't like to eat when I'm not hungry, so I don't know whether I'll be hungry or not during the flight.

People eat on board because a) it takes up time, which otherwise would have spent daydreaming or looking at the window. In fact, eating makes the time pass, and that's why some people eat during flight, even if they aren't hungry. b) why pass up free food? Americans will eat if it's given to them. I think that meals should be offered only during meal times. For instance, no meal on red eyes.
LH 442
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Tue May 30, 2006 7:31 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
What makes you say Euro short haul flights are quality? I'm not expert as I've only flown a few "domestic" Euro flights (ZRH-GVA, NCE-BRU, ZRH-LHR), but found them no better than US domestic flights.

Let me take yours above and find a US comparison: PDX-SEA, MIA-MSY, DTW-IAD

Do you still think the same way ? None of these flights serve food, all would likely charge for a film, fly on an aging plane.

Quoting Bestpilot (Reply 8):
The LCC idea was invented in the United States and like everything invented here, it was taken and imitated overseas.

maybe that should read

Quoting Bestpilot (Reply 8):
The LCC idea was invented in the United States and like everything

commercially successful

Quoting Bestpilot (Reply 8):
invented here, it was taken and imitated overseas.

Is this not the same in reverse.. whats successfully invented in Europe is copied overseas
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Tue May 30, 2006 7:54 pm

Ive flown through 40 states in the US, and similar 20+ countries in Europe, 7+ Countries in Asia and Australia, on over 700 hundred flights...
inc cross the pacific 7 times, atlantic 40+ times

In my opinion:

For short haul:

Quality
--------
LCC are better in the US (WN..daddy of them all, Jet blue, Aloha..)
Majors are better in Europe (LH, BA, SK, MA..)

Cost
-----
LCC are cheaper in Europe (Nothing beats Ryanair, Wizz, Air Berlin)
Majors are cheaper in the US (UA, AA, NW, DL all offer amazing seat/mile deals)

For Long(er) Haul*:

*= LCC dont do long haul, so Longer haul

Quality
--------

LCC are better in the US (Jetblue , Westjet...)
Majors are far and above better from Asia (SQ, JAL, ANA, CX, TG...)

Cost
-----
LCC are Cheaper in Europe (RyanAir, Wizzair, Germanwings, AirBerlin)
Majors are cheaper in the US (UA, AA, NW, DL )



In My opinion:


LCC in Europe is cheaper but not as good Quality.. Think "campsite"
LCC in N.America is a bit more expensive but better quality "Comfort Inn"
LCC in Asia is cheaper and less quality "back pack hostel"
LCC in Australia is like going to the Supermarket followed by a round in the pub before your flight. (Think "Holiday Inn Express")

Majors in Europe are more expensive, but offer more inflight "add ons" (newspapers, inflight toys (Postcards, tings for kids etc , better meals etc) and give off a younger fashion concious image... think of "Sheraton/Hilton/Hyatt"


Majors in N.America are cheaper, more mature, and things are a bit more dated. Food is somewhat average, and very few "extras"... "Think Jethro's family motel last refurbished 1963"


Majors in Asia are quite expensive compared to Europe and Asia, however the sense of precision to detail and sense of perfection are much much more obvious, and quality is seen to be of major importance. All the extras are present making a very pleasant experience....think "Peninsula, HK, Raffles SG, Park Lane LDN, Waldorf NY
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
workhorse
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:35 pm

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Tue May 30, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 16):
That's really strange, because I've experienced only the opposite. Especially from Russians, including Aeroflot and DL. In fact, on my last flight to Moscow, I was happily talking to an American FA on Delta, and we were having a great conversation, then came the Russian FA working for DL, and asked me to go take my seat.

Well, I agree, Delta FA's are usually cool, but still, there seems to be some sort of unwritten rule (or maybe it's written somewhere actually?) on US majors : "passengers should sit down and not to move". Don't know, maybe it's a 9/11 thing, but on a 7+ hour flight I find kind of rude.

Never had a bad experience with AF, KL, LX... though I guess it may happen, but never for me.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 16):
I often have to fly SVO-AMS (KL) or SVO-CDG (AF) and I find that thier service is really no better that what you get on us airlines.

I beg to differ here. Free (and better) food, free drinks and an overall impression to be cared for. You don't get that on US domestic. Not that paying for glass of wine will ruin my budget, but it's more a psychological thing, it's easier to feel like a welcomed guest on board when you're not asked to pay for something every 5 minutes...

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 16):

In fact, now that SU is in Skyteam, I prefer to fly with them then any other airline. I can even get access to their club within the airport, and I'm only silver with NW.

Never flown with SU on longhaul, but on medium and short haul, I agree, they're really good. If only they were based in DME instead of SVO...  Smile
 
georgiaame
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 am

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Tue May 30, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Koper (Reply 9):
i don't think Leonardo Da Vinci, Galileo, Voltaire, Guglielmo Marconi or others were Americans.

Marconi did his work here in the States. Leonardo, well, he wasn't even from this planet. There is good reason to believe that the Roswell flying saucer was actually diverted here to get him home, they just got side tracked on Rigel for a few extra years, then males being males everywhere, never asked proper directions to get to Earth. As to the others, no question, they weren't American, but their work is not exactly contemporary either.

Back on tract, other than Continental, if you go long distance, fly Asian or European airlines. If you are on short haul, why waste extra money for the same peanuts, cramped seats, and lost luggage?
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2524
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Wed May 31, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 20):
if you go long distance, fly Asian or European airlines. If you are on short haul, why waste extra money for the same peanuts, cramped seats, and lost luggage?

Correct.

But see my slightly longer list of prefered carrier's regions (reply 5).
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
boeingguy1
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:31 am

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Wed May 31, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 19):
Free (and better) food

Name one American carrier that charges for food on a trans-atlantic flight.
"...Gatwick South!? Id rather crash in Brighton!"
 
workhorse
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:35 pm

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Wed May 31, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Boeingguy1 (Reply 22):
Name one American carrier that charges for food on a trans-atlantic flight.

No, on transatlantic, they don't, they charge for alcohol only.  Smile Since Hjulicher talked about SVO-AMS and SVO-CDG I thought it was clear that I talked about US domestic (it's more fair to compare such flights with US domestic as they're 3-4 hours only). Should have been more precise, I guess.

BTW, here in Europe, LX tried some time ago to charge for food and drinks on intra-european flights, they have quickly stopped that! They must have understood that this little cost-saving isn't worth pissing of their loyal customers.  Smile
 
FURUREFA
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:26 am

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Wed May 31, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 23):
No, on transatlantic, they don't, they charge for alcohol only. Smile

When you're paying $602 to fly BOS-SNN, what do you expect? I have flown for as little as $524.78 from BOS-LHR, that's not normal! Peoples pay cheap fares and expect quality service, if I were paying $750-$800 then I would free booze, amenity kits and all the extras, but I'm not.

Matt
 
workhorse
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:35 pm

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Wed May 31, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 24):
When you're paying $602 to fly BOS-SNN, what do you expect? I have flown for as little as $524.78 from BOS-LHR, that's not normal!

I have flown for comparable prices on AF, KL and LX and got quality service, free booze, amenity kits and all the extras. And notice that they fly full 744's, 772's and 343's, while AA, DL, UA etc fly mostly 767's. And they are profitable (well, not yet for LX but it will come)!

So there might be some link between good service (even when fares are low), flying fully loaded 744's and profitability, don't you think?

And I would like to stress that I have nothing against US carriers per se, I just find that it's a pity that they go this downward spiral of cutting services (and still either loose money or are less profitable that their european counterparts).
 
JJJ
Posts: 2249
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Wed May 31, 2006 5:44 pm

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 23):
BTW, here in Europe, LX tried some time ago to charge for food and drinks on intra-european flights, they have quickly stopped that! They must have understood that this little cost-saving isn't worth pissing of their loyal customers.

That hasn't stopped the main 3 Spanish carriers (IB, UX, JK) from charging for food on intra-european flights.

Funny thing is you actually get an impressive service from Air nostrum!! (Iberia regional)

J.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2524
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Wed May 31, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 25):
Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 24):
When you're paying $602 to fly BOS-SNN, what do you expect? I have flown for as little as $524.78 from BOS-LHR, that's not normal!

I have flown for comparable prices on AF, KL and LX and got quality service, free booze, amenity kits and all the extras. And notice that they fly full 744's, 772's and 343's, while AA, DL, UA etc fly mostly 767's. And they are profitable (well, not yet for LX but it will come)!

I've flown CDG-JFK return for 400 euro on AF in 2003. Got free Champagne and good food in Y as well as good IFE and service. Why is there alway an excuse for the Amercian legacies?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
hjulicher
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:04 am

Can I please note that the cost of living in Europe is much higher there than in the US. I think that this has something to do with things. As European are more accustomed to paying more for things, they will insist that service standards remain the same. The American system rewards the most efficient/economical company, which means, those that can operate for less win. I'm not saying that Europeans win in this situation, but I've always thought that on international routes, US airlines have the upperhand since they charge equivalent fares as their european counterparts yet, have a higher base fare because of the much lower taxes. BA charges like $250 in taxes for a flight to Europe. NW chares like $90. That's a huge difference. AF however somehow charges around $90 in taxes for flights sold in the US. Wonder if LH or BA have looked into doing the same! By the way, I've paid $473 dollars for a r/t flight from DTW-STR with a stopover in AMS. I think that's pretty cheap. I've also bought a ticket for $430 from SVO-NYC on DL. SU was charging even less, but it was a special promotion fare.
LH 442
 
Checo77
Posts: 1263
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:39 am

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
Service REALLY matters on very long haul. For me that's 8 to 24hrs or more

So are you saying that for example EWR-AMS or JFK-AMS is shorthaul?? I flew it and i was 7hrs 30min........

Adam
Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2524
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Costs: Euro Quality Vs US Value

Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 29):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
Service REALLY matters on very long haul. For me that's 8 to 24hrs or more

So are you saying that for example EWR-AMS or JFK-AMS is shorthaul?? I flew it and i was 7hrs 30min........

No. As is said, VERY long haul is when service really matters and by that I mean 8 to 24+ hrs. Doesn't imply 7:30 is short haul.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.

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