RuEwrAcBuff
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Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 3:42 am

With CO's European route expanision from its EWR hub, I was wondering if CO has any plans to add an EWR-ATH non-stop to its schedule?
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dutchjet
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 3:46 am

Some day..........if open skies ever comes to air services between the US and Greece. Until then, Delta is the US carrier to Greece and Olympic is the Greek carrier to the US.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 3:51 am

While its certainly possible, I would somewhat doubt it based on equipment types available at CO.

Athens is primarily an ethnic/leisure market with strong seasonality swings.

The 757 which is suited for smaller and lower yield markets would never make it to ATH range wise, while the closest other type seat wise is the B767-200 however its geared much more for premium demand with its cabin configuration. ATH would not support a 764 and certainly not a 777 due to its strong seasonal swings and relatively low business demand compared to other European cities.

For now I would say, Delta will manage to remain the sole US carrier serving Greece. Even it scales back winter services.
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dutchjet
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 3:57 am

EWR-ATH is not a potential 752 route......but if CO could get authority for a EWR-ATH, my guess is that CO would juggle its schedule and aircraft allocations to come up with a 762 for this route (ie, the later departure on the EWR-CDG route could operate with a 752 instead of a 762).
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 3:58 am

According to the "U.S. Carrier Route Authorities" document published by the U.S. Department of Transportation, dated October 2004, American, Delta and United hold route authorities to Greece on the U.S. side. American also holds the old TWA route authorities.
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dutchjet
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
According to the "U.S. Carrier Route Authorities" document published by the U.S. Department of Transportation, dated October 2004, American, Delta and United hold route authorities to Greece on the U.S. side. American also holds the old TWA route authorities.

That would mean that AA and UA are sitting with "unused authorities".....how does that work? Can AA and UA sit with these dormant authorities for an unspecified period of time? If CO really wanted to open up EWR-ATH or US wanted to open up PHL-ATH, could those airlines take over AA and UA's rights to Greece since both authorities are sitting dormant?

This is quite interesting.......anyone know how this works? I was under the (wrong) impression that DL was the only US carrier that could fly to Athens. TW was the big player to Greece many years ago, I did not know that AA still had the TW rights.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Can AA and UA sit with these dormant authorities for an unspecified period of time? I

Route authorities approved before a certain date are held in perpetuity, unless an airline asks for a dormant authority to be released so they may fly it. I forget what the date is, but it appears in several route requests, so I'm sure it could be researched.

So for example, if CO really wanted to fly to Greece, they could petition to take over either American's, United's, or the American/TWA authorities.

I could type out the list by city/airline if you'd like.
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LAXintl
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
how does that work? Can AA and UA sit with these dormant authorities for an unspecified period of time?

In my office I have a complete list of route authorities held by US air carriers.

Its pretty amazing what authorities airlines have but do not exercise and are referred to as "dormant authorities".

For instance as part of the AA purchase of TWA, it received authorities for something like 40 countries some of which TWA never even operated themselves.

As far as United it served CDG-ATH for a while in the 1990s. I do believe however it still makes use of its authorities from a legal point of view by publishing its flight number on Star code shares to Greece.
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Adam T.
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
I could type out the list by city/airline if you'd like

I'd be interested in seeing any international route authorites out of CLT that aren't being used.

Adam  Smile
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Adam T. (Reply 8):
I'd be interested in seeing any international route authorites out of CLT that aren't being used.

The document is arranged by country, then airline, so picking out one country's routes is fairly easy, by city, not so. I'll look and see if this is still available online, though, so you can download it. If I post a link later on, I was successful.  Smile
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AeroWesty
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 4:38 am

U.S. Air Carrier International Route Authority, issued as of November 1, 2005,

By country:
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/intav/country.pdf

By carrier:
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/intav/carrier.pdf
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WesternA318
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 4:48 am

Well, I dont know if this helps, but Homeric Tours will offer A330-200 flights starting next summer, with a daily flight year round. I wish CO would start EWR-ATH, I really hate switching to Aegean in Rome...
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A330323X
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
If CO really wanted to open up EWR-ATH or US wanted to open up PHL-ATH, could those airlines take over AA and UA's rights to Greece since both authorities are sitting dormant?

US specifically stated several times that it wanted to start PHL-ATH service, including in the press release announcing their A330 engine selection. PHL-ATH was listed as the specific route that would be made possible by US's selection of the PW4173. Thanks a lot, Pratt.  Embarrassment
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wjcandee
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 5:20 am

Didn't Tower Air fly to Athens for a while? Whose authority did they use?
 
Adam T.
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
U.S. Air Carrier International Route Authority, issued as of November 1, 2005,

By country:
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/intav/country.pdf

By carrier:
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/int...r.pdf

Thanks man!  Smile

Adam
 
Adam T.
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 5:42 am

Interesting city pairs, though maybe i'm reading it wrong but some of them are quite off the wall. For example........United Airlines has Australia to Bangor, Maine......why would United want access to a pair like that. That's just one of a few kind of out there pairings.

Any explanation is much appreciated  Smile

Adam
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Adam T. (Reply 15):
Interesting city pairs, though maybe i'm reading it wrong but some of them are quite off the wall. For example........United Airlines has Australia to Bangor, Maine

The way route authorities were routinely issued in the past were city pair specific (and some still are).

In the prop days, Bangor would have been the first point of entry to the U.S. for a refueling stop after crossing the Atlantic.

This list has quite a few historic oddities, along with the results of mergers and acquisitions of different airlines over the years. It's just a data table, but I think an enjoyable read! LOL
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Adam T.
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 6:03 am

Oh okay, I see where you are coming from! You are right though.....interesting read nonetheless. It's cool to see that US Airways has routes authorities to quite a few countries including Korea and Switzerland.

Adam  Smile
 
klwright69
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
EWR-ATH is not a potential 752 route......but if CO could get authority for a EWR-ATH, my guess is that CO would juggle its schedule and aircraft allocations to come up with a 762 for this route (ie, the later departure on the EWR-CDG route could operate with a 752 instead of a 762).

DutchJet, the late EWR-CDG departure has ALREADY been downgraded to a 752. The 762 that was flying this route has been redeployed to IAH-EZE.
 
vega
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 12):
US specifically stated several times that it wanted to start PHL-ATH service, including in the press release announcing their A330 engine selection. PHL-ATH was listed as the specific route that would be made possible by US's selection of the PW4173.

I know that, but I'd hate to see US waste a 332 on a low yield "glamor" route out of PHL. The majority of Greek Americans live in New York, Detroit, Chicago and Tampa. Obviously, significant feeds to US out of the first 3 is questionable since they are all major non-US hubs, so about the only capture possibility is Tampa. Seems risky. If the interest in ATH is freight, then the 767-200ER is probably a better fit than the 332.
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Adam T.
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
If the interest in ATH is freight, then the 767-200ER is probably a better fit than the 332.

But could the 762's be able to make PHL-ATH?
 
WesternA318
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 9:06 am

Theres actually a ton of Greeks living in Philadelphia who are quite fed up about having to connect in JFK.
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A330323X
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
I know that, but I'd hate to see US waste a 332 on a low yield "glamor" route out of PHL. The majority of Greek Americans live in New York, Detroit, Chicago and Tampa. Obviously, significant feeds to US out of the first 3 is questionable since they are all major non-US hubs, so about the only capture possibility is Tampa. Seems risky. If the interest in ATH is freight, then the 767-200ER is probably a better fit than the 332.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. I wasn't referring to the 332s when I talked of US and PHL-ATH. US intended on sending the 333s to ATH. After US chose the A330-300X over the B777-200A, it chose Pratt and Whitney to supply the engines for the A330s, even though US is traditionally a GE customer, including already having the CF6 on their B767-200ERs. The first four (or was it five?) frames of the 333 order were to be delivered with the PW4168A engine, with all birds after that coming with the PW4173 engine. US was the launch customer for the 73,000 lb PW4173, and these were the engines to power the 333s that US would send to the further destinations like ATH. Pratt then hit a snag in developing the PW4173 and gave up on it rather too easily, never bringing it to market, in one of a number of high-profile engine development failures for them. It forced US to equip the entire A330 fleet with the PW4168A, sticking them with a whole fleet of underpowered A330-300Xs.

Heh. I just noticed something for the first time. US was the launch customer for the PW4173 on the 333X. And HP was the launch customer for the PW6000 on the 318. What dreadful luck. Let's just say that the new US won't be ordering any new Pratt engines again anytime soon after it's done taking the 332s.  Wink
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vega
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 21):
Theres actually a ton of Greeks living in Philadelphia who are quite fed up about having to connect in JFK.

Yes, but are there enough to support a 5000 mi daily non-stop flight on a wide body aircraft and how many would be willing to pay for a seat in Envoy, or even fly from PHL as individuals rather than as part of a (low profit) tour group? The lack of top tier passenger revenue could or course easily be offset by very good cargo loads - if they exist. I'd venture to say (without research) that there are quite a bit more Mexican Americans in Philadelphia than Greeks, but no one, AM or US, has been successful with a PHL-MEX flight, so far. OP excuse me for stealing this thread from CO and EWR - i'm done.
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OMA2FAI2SAV
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 3:02 pm

Great reading AeroWesty! I find it interesting that AA has applied and has rights for so many cities from MCI! Iraq? Never knew there was a MCI-Iraq demand. LOL

Does anyone know why Contiental/Eastern applied for so many international destinations out of OMA? I am from Omaha, and I find that rather odd.

[Edited 2006-05-30 08:07:04]
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masseybrown
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RE: Does CO Plan EWR-ATH?

Tue May 30, 2006 4:23 pm

Quoting OMA2FAI2SAV (Reply 24):
Does anyone know why Contiental/Eastern applied for so many international destinations out of OMA? I am from Omaha, and I find that rather odd.

A bit prior to deregulation, the airlines and the Civil Aeronautics Board went through "route integration proceedings" wherein the CAB said airlines could basically fly between any two cities on their routes. The CAB would inposed restrictions where the integration gave the airline access to a route on which there was an incumbent. As a result airlines ended up with dozens of non-stop city pairs that they never intended to use. This process worked for international routes as well, although in many cases the other country's authority was never sought or granted.

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