777fan
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Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 3:49 am

Interesting article that points out Airbus' efforts to spruce up the A350 design in the wake of the 787's early appeal. No doubt, some will dismiss this as an A vs B thing but, IMO, the last sentence sums it all up; we shall see...


777fan


http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...815456.story?coll=chi-business-hed
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solnabo
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 4:32 am

What to expect from a Chicago based newspaper! HQ of Boeing are in Chic too?

Afraid this gonna be another A/B flamebait (again). Lets wait and see what Airbus comes up with at the Farnborough Air Show and A350 this summer...

Micke//SWE  wave 
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 4:38 am

It actually seems reasonably fact based and fair to me.

If Airbus had not bet on the thriving mega-hub to mega-hub business with the A380, they would not be facing the issues of a not totally convincing B787 competitor and severely stretched engineering resources.
 
gigneil
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 4:43 am

You're not interpreting the article at all as it was intended.

The article states the existing proposed A350 has problems. It says little about the as-yet-unproposed redesigned.

N
 
airfrnt
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
What to expect from a Chicago based newspaper! HQ of Boeing are in Chic too?

Shoot the messenger much? This article doesn't have much on the 360/370 redesign, but has a few interesting quotes.

Quote:

"This development was extremely unusual," Aboulafia said. "Usually, planes are launched with careful consultation with customers and on the basis on what the market needs, rather than on how much you can afford."



Quote:

But in a warning to Airbus, Merrill Lynch analyst Charles Armitage said to investors recently, "We do not believe that [being second] is a bad thing, so long as the product is better."

Airbus has to match Boeing here on airplane size (ie, making it bigger to get more seats for a similar CASM isn't going to cut it) and technology. I think they will be able to. I don't see them lapping Boeing technology or logistics wise anytime soon.

Ironically, I think the main hold up on Boeing deciding to increase 787 production rate is what Airbus is doing right now. If Boeing announces after the new 350 is introduced to increase production rate you can read it as they are feeling pretty secure the 350 won't be competitive. If they keep is the same or slightly increase it, they will be worried.

If they do it before Airbus announces, they will be trying to kill the new 350 before it leaves the drawing board.
 
Tancrede
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:09 am

Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger".
 
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csturdiv
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 5):
Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger".

So? About a month ago or so the Chicago Tribune ran a series of articles that blasted Sears and the state of their business. Not only is Sears an American business, but it is a Chicagoland business as well. As much as I do not like the Tribune, they are not a cheerleader as you make them out to be.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
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Stitch
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 5):
Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger".

Bollocks.

Would you be happier if the article was from a TLS-based newspaper? Or do you believe that a TLS-based newspaper would never print anything that didn't highlight Airbus in a positive light? Or do you expect a TLS-based newspaper to never print anything that didn't highlight Airbus in a positive light?

Sure, there is some hyperbole is this article, just as I am sure this is in articles published by EU papers that talk about Boeing and it's programs. But to just dismiss an entire article outright based on the country of publication is about as...silly...as dismissing an entire post by someone based on the flag by their name.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 5):
Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger".

Which sources, exactly, do YOU deem acceptable for this type of information? I think it's only fair that you tell us, since apparently this article never got to the "critical thinking" stage for you, preempted by the nationalities of its subject and the source.

[Edited 2006-05-29 23:20:58]
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:21 am

We must also dismiss all articles about Airbus if they are in Le Monde, the FT, in any German paper or on German TV, or from Reuters, among others...

Whatever...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 5):
Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger".

How asinine can you get??

 Yeah sure
 
Leskova
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:50 am

Folks - before you go calling the report anti-Airbus based on the topic of this thread, why don't you actually read the article... because as soon as you do, you'll realize that Gigneil has pretty much hit the bullseye:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
You're not interpreting the article at all as it was intended.

The article states the existing proposed A350 has problems. It says little about the as-yet-unproposed redesigned.

The article is about the A350 versions up to the currently know version - it's certainly not about any problems on the currently ongoing redesign (of the redesign of the redesign...).

As for the article - there's really not much to add to it; we all know that the A350 as it is right now has drawn quite a bit of flak... so negative press is not something that should really be much of a surprise.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 11):
As for the article - there's really not much to add to it; we all know that the A350 as it is right now has drawn quite a bit of flak... so negative press is not something that should really be much of a surprise.

Right, so it's largely accurate insofar as we in this forum can determine. It's also important to realize that the average person in Chicago, Toulouse, or anywhere else doesn't follow aviation. For those readers with a cursory interest, this story is the news they get on this issue, which means it's not really propaganda, regardless of the country from which it originates.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
airwave
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:59 am

This article doesn't seem to say anything new at all regarding the A350--new design or *new* new design. I'm wondering how long it'll take Airbus to sort this whole thing out or if, like was mentioned earlier, we'll here something at Farnborough. I almost think that at this stage a mercy killing of the program would be in order.  scratchchin 

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 5):
Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger".

Wow. Just...wow.  banghead   banghead 

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
We must also dismiss all articles about Airbus if they are in Le Monde, the FT, in any German paper or on German TV, or from Reuters, among others...

Whatever...

 checkmark 

Airwave  eyebrow 
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
We must also dismiss all articles about Airbus if they are in Le Monde, the FT, in any German paper or on German TV, or from Reuters, among others...

Using Tancrede's logic:

Frow where would a newspaper have to originate to be "qualified" to write about aviation.......??
 
CWFan
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 7:20 am

I guess Tancrede's logic dictates that Asian newspapers are the only trusted sources for aviation news.
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting CWFan (Reply 15):
I guess Tancrede's logic dictates that Asian newspapers are the only trusted sources for aviation news.

It almost sounds a bit scholarly......Tancredian Logic...  scratchchin 
 
hb88
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 3):
The article states the existing proposed A350 has problems. It says little about the as-yet-unproposed redesigned.

 checkmark  Yes, you're quite correct, there's almost nothing new in this article.
 
Glareskin
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 7:45 am

First of all, I agree with most parts of the article. However:
  • this has all been mentioned over and over on this forum, what's the added value of this article?
  • how serious is an article that describes composites as plastic
  • the article emphasizes the sales success of the 787 vs the A350 without adding the later introduction of the latter (in this part of the article)
  • it's the same experts comments (Aboulafia or Randy) over and over
  • I realize I will get flamed because of my summary
I do realize that the 787 is the better concept for the moment. And despite the 350 aircraft being sold (and the success will increase in the coming year) it is still the beginning of the history of aircraft sales from this new generation. Airbus will have to start from the underdog position as they did in most of the other aircraft. But let's take a look at the last sentence of the article:

Quote:
"We do not believe that [being second] is a bad thing, so long as the product is better."

. So the target has been set by Boeing. Airbus has to develop and market a better product. And why wouldn't they? They arguably managed to do so with the A300/A310, the A320, the A330/A340 and the A380. OK, go on. Hit me!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 17):
So the target has been set by Boeing. Airbus has to develop and market a better product. And why wouldn't they? They arguably managed to do so with the A300/A310, the A320, the A330/A340 and the A380. OK, go on. Hit me!

The only issue in this case is the length of time it took Airbus to "surpass" Boeing in the aircraft categories....the A320 came out almost 20 years after the 737 ( and not agreeing that it is "better" than the 737NG--only the earlier models), the A330 about 15 years after the 767, and the A340 has never surpassed the 777...quite the contrary....and the A380...the EIS is over 36 years after the EIS of the original 747!!--it would be kind of like Apple's gloating that the Ipod is superior to the original Sony Walkman....
 
spartanmjf
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 5):
Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger".

Perhaps, then, the "Toulouse Times?" The Tribune is a respected newspaper with strong business reporting capabilities.
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
art
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 5):
Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger".

You don't seem to be complaining about what is said in the article, just that the Chicago Tribune ran a story on a troubled Airbus project.

The article seems unpartisan to me. I would like to read something as unpartisan from the Toulouse press.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 10:34 am

Interesting how some folks think that this is an A-bashing article. Did you read it? It says that Airbus's aircraft, as the second one to market, may be the better, and hence more-successful, aircraft, just as the 777 did well being the last to market. Which aircraft sells more airframes is entirely up in the air.


Boeing has a 3-5-year lead, but its order book for the first 3 years is full, so the real question is how competitive its offering will be in the years after that where both manufacturers presumably will be producing aircraft and looking to fill order books. The market for aircraft in the world today is such that both manufacturers should be able to sell a bunch of aircraft, provided that one doesn't have glaring shortcomings as compared to the other, which *customers* (not I) feel that the A350 presently has, but which Airbus should be more than able to fix, if they're willing to borrow and spend the money. Unless there is some major engineering disaster that results in one of these things cracking in half in flight, they're both gonna sell airframes, and Airbus's will be the newer one. Unlike days of old, where you knew a lot less about the airframe's capabilities until it was already in service, nobody is really likely to choose the 787 four years from now because it is the "proven" design, although they may order more of them because they already have some and like them. Otherwise, it's a food fight. If -- as I expect that they will now be forced to do -- Airbus comes out with a product that meets the 787's performance level, it will sell. Period. The only thing that could dampen the demand for the A350 would be a collapse of the world economy in general or air travel generally (say as the result of terrorism if the Western world doesn't continue to push back against it), combined with a drop in oil prices. It's happened a couple of times in my lifetime, and it can happen again. But that's general market risk, as opposed to the in-my-view-minimal risk that Airbus doesn't have the ability to field a comparable aircraft. Its customers -- as we see today -- plainly won't let it.

I thought that this was a balanced article that makes a variety of positive and flattering assumptions about Airbus's capabilities. It also pulls no punches in stating that -- as the market has made clear -- a mere update of the A330 will not cut it in today's fuel-price-obsessed marketplace. If oil drops back $20 a barrel, efficiency will be nice but not as necessary.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 19):
-it would be kind of like Apple's gloating that the Ipod is superior to the original Sony Walkman....

Not hardly...

I would be more like Steve Jobs scoreboarding against the original 8-track player....
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 11:11 am

The key point is that Airbus needs to have an equal or better offering as compared to the 787. Having this offering in its larger variants to also be better than the 773ER would be a nice bonus, and actually easier to achieve.

By going to a larger diameter as is being speculated it more likely targets the 280-370 passenger point in the market, which for the long term strategy is probably right for Airbus to position. However, by going up in size it is leaving a huge gap in size with only the A330 competing against the B783 & B788 for all of the A300, A310, B757, B767 replacements. Isn't there like some 3,000 of these currently flying. With size migration either down to NB's or up to the 777 size that would still be like 1,500 to 1,800 planes needing to be replaced in that category within 20 years. That is over 75 per year average.

Although I am more in the B camp, I sincerely hope that Airbus introduces a hit that can take half the market in its targeted size.

Regards
-Jay
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 24):
I sincerely hope that Airbus introduces a hit that can take half the market in its targeted size.

I don't....I hope Boeing dominates the market!  Big grin
 
777fan
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Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 11):
The article is about the A350 versions up to the currently know version - it's certainly not about any problems on the currently ongoing redesign (of the redesign of the redesign...).

Hence my disclaimer "let's wait and see"!!!


777fan

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 22):
Airbus comes out with a product that meets the 787's performance level, it will sell. Period.

I think two factors that has been overlooked is price and fleet assimilation. Assuming the modified A350 performs comparably to the 787, airlines will most likely make their choice based on which a/c costs less and which will be easier to phase into their existing fleet. Boeing-heavy airlines (CO) will naturally lean toward the A350 while Airbus-heavy airlines will favor the A350.

777fan (again)

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 22):
If oil drops back $20 a barrel, efficiency will be nice but not as necessary.


LMAO. I'd bank on a/c powered by soybeans and baby feces before this happens!!!

[Edited 2006-05-30 05:20:14]

[Edited 2006-05-30 05:21:34]
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gigneil
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting Halibut (Reply 25):
July is the designated date for the annoucement of New A350

Designated by whom?

N
 
worldxplorer
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 28):
Designated by whom?

Popular forum hearsay. Haven't you heard, if it's repeated enough on a.net, it becomes fact!

WorldXplorer
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 27):
Boeing-heavy airlines (CO) will naturally lean toward the A350 while Airbus-heavy airlines will favor the A350.

Did you mean CO will lean to the 787?  Wink
 
Halibut
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting Halibut (Reply 25):
Airbus doesn't know either !



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 28):
Designated by whom?

I could have worded it differently so it could heve been better understood what I was attempting to say .

Airbus , I would assume , is current deciding and or planning what to do with regards to the new A350 re-design . The A350 is at this time is undefined . However, Airbus should annouce there plans in July of the New A350 , 2006 re-design version .

Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
777fan
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 30):
d you mean CO will lean to the 787?

Oops! Yup, I meant CO would want the 787! Too much sun at the beach today!

Thanks for the correction (vice a full out flaming)!

777fan
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SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 32):
Thanks for the correction (vice a full out flaming)!

No problem. Keep up the good articles!  Smile
 
baron95
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
Afraid this gonna be another A/B flamebait (again). Lets wait and see what Airbus comes up with at the Farnborough Air Show and A350 this summer

I don't think you need to wait to see what Airbus announces at Farnborough to comment on the A350 predicament for A. A few things are almost a given:

1 - From Airbus' latest statements, a "design revision/update" to the A350 is almost a given.

2 - Any design revision/update will cost a lot more money, delay EIS a lot more, further weaken A350 program CREDIBILITY with customer - Airbus is shooting from the hip with a shotgun trying to hit anything - Boeing has a well honed sniper.

3 - It is just inconceivable that Airbus can come up with a design that is substantially (marginally yes) better than the 787-3/8 at that low end and the 787-10/747-8 at the high end. We are not talking about doing an A320 a decade after a conventional 737 or an A330 a decade after a conventional 767 or an A380 a decade after a conventional 744. We are talking doing an A350 a very short two years after a very revolutionary 787, with fuel prices that disproportionally reward efficiency.

It is really beyond me why some people are dying with anticipation and hope for the Farnborough announcement - whatever is announced is NOT going to save Airbus from its mid-sized predicament.

Airbus will be relegated to competing on delivery availability, fleet comonality and price ONLY. Not necessarilly a bad business to be in, but they will not lead the market in this range.

[Edited 2006-05-30 06:42:16]

[Edited 2006-05-30 06:43:02]
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 1:52 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 34):
It is just inconceivable that Airbus can come up with a design that is substantially (marginally yes) better than the 787-3/8 at that low end and the 787-10/747-8 at the high end.

One other aspect that is not being taken into consideration is that Boeing is probably not exactly being static about the concept of continual improvements.

There is no reason that should preclude Boeing from being able to add continual improvements to the 777 and 787. By the time the A350 (thrice revised) enters service, the 777 and 787 will perhaps even be further enhanced.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 27):
LMAO. I'd bank on a/c powered by soybeans and baby feces before this happens!!!

Well, maybe. But Warren Buffett thinks that there's a speculative bubble in the market, as supply and stores are just where they were when oil was under $30, and the higher price hasn't brought more supply on line. The present price is based purely on speculation in the commodity, and "concerns" about future supply, not current scarcity, as the markets are well supplied. As Buffett recently said, when people see their friends making money by speculating in something, they'll come late to the party and want one more dance, and then another. But at the end of the day, the clock strikes midnight and everyone turns back into pumpkins and mice. That's what happened to biotech stocks, internet stocks, and a bunch of scarce commodities.
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 36):
The present price is based purely on speculation in the commodity, and "concerns" about future supply, not current scarcity, as the markets are well supplied.

It seems though that the days of cheaply extracted oil are numbered.

The trend now seems to be shifting to extract in places like Alberta, where the production is only justified by higher prices for petroleum.

My wager would be on a much higher long-term price for oil.
 
manni
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 19):
The only issue in this case is the length of time it took Airbus to "surpass" Boeing in the aircraft categories.

You've just made this argument invalid...

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 19):
and the A340 has never surpassed the 777.[/quote

The 777 came only a few years after the A340. After the initial struggle, leading to the nickname 'cripple seven', the 777 surpassed the A340. If Boeing can pull this off, it's not impossible for Airbus to do the same. Afterall Airbus has a target towards it can work, while Boeing has set their own goal.

[quote=Glareskin,reply=18]. So the target has been set by Boeing. Airbus has to develop and market a better product.



Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 14):
Frow where would a newspaper have to originate to be "qualified" to write about aviation.......??

If we skip articles quoting or expressing the views of Aboulafia and Boeing about Airbus, we'll have plenty left...
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777fan
Topic Author
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 2:33 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 36):
But Warren Buffett thinks that there's a speculative bubble in the market, as supply and stores are just where they were when oil was under $30, and the higher price hasn't brought more supply on line.

Unfortunately, I think Mr. Buffett needs to reconsider. Terrorist attacks on pipelines, refineries, supply lines, etc. weren't as big of a concern when oil was $30/bbl. Yes, I know, that was only a decade or so ago but, as we have all seen, the world is quite different now. Oh yeah, don't forget China's insatiable (and growing) appetite and dependence on oil!

777fan
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SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 38):
If we skip articles quoting or expressing the views of Aboulafia and Boeing about Airbus, we'll have plenty left...

Originate in this case refers to the country of origin.

Tancrede implied that the article had an inherent bias against Airbus because the Chicago Tribune and Boeing are both American companies....which is asinine....a complete lack of understanding that often newspapers in the US play an almost adversarial role against everything....it makes for more exciting journalism....

Quoting Manni (Reply 38):
and the A340 has never surpassed the 777.[/quote

The 777 came only a few years after the A340. After the initial struggle, leading to the nickname 'cripple seven', the 777 surpassed the A340. If Boeing can pull this off, it's not impossible for Airbus to do the same. Afterall Airbus has a target towards it can work, while Boeing has set their own goal.

Alright then....the 777 surpassed the A340 and has never looked back!
 Wink
 
wjcandee
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 3:11 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 39):
Terrorist attacks on pipelines, refineries, supply lines, etc. weren't as big of a concern when oil was $30/bbl. Yes, I know, that was only a decade or so ago but, as we have all seen, the world is quite different now. Oh yeah, don't forget China's insatiable (and growing) appetite and dependence on oil!

But that's the problem with the entire system being dependent on a system of futures rather than present events. The fact is that we've paid exhorbitant prices for a commodity for two years that would have been available in the same amounts if the price had stayed low. Despite all the fears and the price spikes every time somebody in Angola farted, as if that would make any substantial difference in supply, none of the "shortages" from any of those causes that drove the speculation have in fact materialized; the markets have continued to be well-supplied. It's as if the entire beef market were based on futures and there were fears of mad cow and everybody was speculating in beef and the price tripled for no real reason. It's actually pretty insane. Meanwhile, prices for commodities like coal which have no supply peril rise in parallel to the artificially-high oil prices. It's a bubble. Just like real estate in the SunBelt in the late '80s.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 28):
Designated by whom?

There have been several reports (including I think FI) that have stated that Airbus will decide on the A350 redesign by the end of June. That would make announcements in July a reasonable assumption.

However, AFAIK, only learned a.netters have made the leap of logic that the announcement will be made at Farnborough.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
manni
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 3:16 pm

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 40):
Alright then....the 777 surpassed the A340 and has never looked back!

Not quiet. Airbus passed them again with the A346 and A345, not that it lastet long, but neither might the 777-300ER and 772LR.
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SEAPlane10
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 44):
Not quiet. Airbus passed them again with the A346 and A345, not that it lastet long, but neither might the 777-300ER and 772LR.

Oh man....we could go around in circles forever on surpassing....it's like a dog chasing its tail........  crazy 
 
ikramerica
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 43):
However, AFAIK, only learned a.netters have made the leap of logic that the announcement will be made at Farnborough.

And only more learned a.netters have come to the conclusion that the 350 will surpass the 787 despite using at best the same technology, same physics, same cad principles and same engine manufacturers.

The rest of us are more under the impression that the 350 will finally be a realistic response to the 787 and likely equal it, not that it will make the 787 somehow obsolete before flying, and unless there is some reason to believe that a 787-10 that has EIS about the same time as the 350 will still somehow be vastly inferior based on previous generation technology...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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glideslope
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 2):
If Airbus had not bet on the thriving mega-hub to mega-hub business with the A380, they would not be facing the issues of a not totally convincing B787 competitor and severely stretched engineering resources.

What is that old saying? "Don't place all your eggs in one basket."
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 9:10 pm

Man oh man... I'm so worried about Airbus!

If the A350 is 4 years late with a new redesign, then it will have to be much better than the B787 in order for airlines to bite. No one is going to want a "me-too" airplane years later, going after the 777 market which will by 2012 become over 15 years old. In the airplane industry, "better" is the new "equal".

The problem is that if the A350 is only equal to the B787, then it will become vulnerable to attack by Boeing with newer technology that Boeing will have at its disposal in 2012. It will be in position to strike at not only the A350, but also the A320 line. If Boeing considers making a BW commercial jet (Blended wing), then the A380 also becomes vulnerable.

If there's a bigger A350, this plane will eat at the edges of the A380 market. It already means the A340 is gone. The A330 is neglected and will become yesteryear's news after the 787 eats it for lunch.

Airbus is going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to make the A350 more successful. They've already done almost everything they could do to upgrade it and make it more efficient. If they're going to make it truly better, then it's going to have to be mostly composite, with even better engines than are foreseen today. More $$$$ for research, revamp, testing. Where are they gonna get that? Not out of a hat!

It seems that Airbus is beginning to become the new McDonnell Douglas.

Fuel for thought,

SparkingWave ~~~
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deltadc9
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
What to expect from a Chicago based newspaper! HQ of Boeing are in Chic too?

Yes, the Trib is always so forgiving of United Airlines and the Bears too, that paper is just a Chicagoland lovefest circlejerk!!!!

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 5):
Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger".

See above.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 18):
how serious is an article that describes composites as plastic

I dont find this surprising, since CFRP is plastic, reinforced with carbon fiber which most people have no familiarity at all with.

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 46):
It seems that Airbus is beginning to become the new McDonnell Douglas.

The main difference is that MD had such a limited product line magnifying every misstep, Airbus is much better off as far as that is concerned. But they do not seem to be making good decisions, when they make them at all.

I still think that if they had waited on the 380 and offered a much improved 330 and a new 340 replacement they would be much better off. That's where the volume and ROI is.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Danny
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 11:15 pm

"The proposed Airbus A350 sports new engines, a new cockpit, a new tail and new wings made out of plastic--all designed to match the rival Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

But it doesn't appear to be new enough, at least not by the number of initial orders."

This sums it all. The author completely confused different versions/stages of A350 design. Funny that he criticizes composite use by calling them plastic. Should have checked what the Boeing was built of.

Then as in every Airbus bashing he brings in "analyst" Aboulafia who expects Airbus to be permanantly marginalised.  banghead  One of the most one-sided articles in recent months. Could be very well signed by Halibut  Wink
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Article: Airbus A350 Redesign Having Problems

Tue May 30, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 5):
Chicago Tribune is American, Boeing is American. That's tell all. Please next time, find your sources from a more neutral "messenger

Yeah, like something from Paris or London would be "unbiased"  Yeah sure

The last sentance does say it all: It ok to be second to market, as long as your product is better.....
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