PlaneHunter
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FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:53 am

Interesting article on www.handelsblatt.com , covering the shortage of capacity at Frankfurt Airport.

German only:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/pshb/fn/...furt-ist-nur-noch-nummer-drei.html

Short summary (translation):
Since Frankfurt airport cannot handle more flights with the existing infrastructure, it has lost its second place among Europe's largest airports to Paris-CDG. FRA lacks an additional runway, and - according to CEO Wilhelm Bender - several airlines have had to be rejected.


A new runway is planned to be operational by 2009 - but resistance is severe. It seems MUC will benefit even more in the future if a fourth runway faces more delays.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
intothinair
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:24 pm

This indeed is very bad news for FRA, let's just hope they can get the fourth runways running by 2009!

cheers, Konstantin G.
 
BBJII
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:28 pm

Any idea which airlines and routes?
Remember: The Bird Hit You, You Didn't Hit The Bird.....
 
bmacleod
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capac

Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:44 pm

If it has a problem with capacity now, how will it ever handle the 10 or 15 A380s LH has ordered?

[Edited 2006-06-01 14:59:55]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 3):
If it has a problem with shortage now, how will it ever handle the 10 or 15 A380s LH has ordered?

The A380 is supposed to give relief to restricted airports by reducing frequency in favor of capacity. At least it allows to substitute a smaller plane by a bigger one to increase capacity with constant frequency.
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
ZRH
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 3):
If it has a problem with shortage now, how will it ever handle the 10 or 15 A380s LH has ordered?

I don't see this problem. It is a question of slots and not passengers. LH has the slots they only use bigger planes.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 3):
If it has a problem with shortage now, how will it ever handle the 10 or 15 A380s LH has ordered?

A runway slot is a runway slot, whether used by a Fokker 50 on an A380. Lufthansa has plenty of FRA slots, so I'm confident they will be able to squeeze the A380s in somewhere.
 
oly720man
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:58 pm

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 1):
let's just hope they can get the fourth runways running by 2009!

considering the problems getting runway 3 built in the late 1980's I can't imagine it being an easy ride.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
Beaucaire
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:07 pm

But ultimately FRA has a problem due to its situation allowing literally nor major expansion.
CDG has 300 Ha of reserve land...
German bureaucracy is at it's best when it comes to runway -and airport constructions..(Berlin Airport, slots in DUS,new runway in Frankfurt,Finkenwerder,NUE highway access etc..)
Planning-cycles of 10-12 years are typical without guarantee to succeed..
LH will find relieve by using A380's in FRA ,but space is becomming a premium comodity and MUC,HAM,LEJ and CGN will benefit from Frankfurt's tight position.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
ZRH
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:15 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
MUC,HAM,LEJ and CGN will benefit from Frankfurt's tight position.

Yes and probably Zurich Big grin
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:21 pm

That's the joy of having too many tree huggers in Germany.
"What, you want to take down these trees for a new runway? Not gonna happen, trees are living creatures as well. And planes are evil anyway"  Yeah sure .
If it was up to me, I'd probably decide to go to the forest where the runway is to be located, and with the help of a nice flamethrower take care of the whole problem (including tree huggers trying to protect the trees)  devil .
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:26 pm

I passed thru FRA on the way back to Kuwait this past Monday, and if runway capacity is in short supply, terminal capacity can not be far behind. T1 and T2 were packed in the six hours I was there.

Bring on T3!!!
 
masseybrown
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capac

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:31 pm

Ah yes, frequency restrictions ... it's all a scheme to force A380 purchases. I expected that they'd wait until the plane was in service, though.  Yeah sure
 
Beaucaire
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:33 pm

Actually the Bio-mass in Europe is increasing by the years...
In France the forest-capacity and surface has increased by 15 % over the last 35 years.It might look disturbing to bring down trees close to the Frankfurt-airport,but trees grow relatively fast in german forest. Their action as re-generator for oxygen and pollution-cleaner is quite active in central Europe and will increase with the change in climate..
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capac

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
German bureaucracy is at it's best when it comes to runway -and airport constructions..(Berlin Airport, slots in DUS,new runway in Frankfurt,Finkenwerder,NUE highway access etc..)

Not only bureaucracy. Many people move close to airports, enjoy cheap real estate prices and an attractive job market but then suddenly start to complain about noise and pollution and support action opposition groups...

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 12):
Ah yes, frequency restrictions ... it's all a scheme to force A380 purchases.

Sorry?


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
masseybrown
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:58 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 14):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 12):
Ah yes, frequency restrictions ... it's all a scheme to force A380 purchases.

Sorry?

Just a joke.

If EU airports fix frequencies, it would be necessary to use larger planes to accommodate growth, thus promoting the sale of A380s. I don't believe this is actually happening ... yet.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:07 pm

Exactly the reason why the idea of using smaller aircraft like the 787 with higher frequency isn't always appropriate.

FRA has good rail links, maybe more of the shorter flights can be replaced by the high speed ICE trains?
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columba
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
LH will find relieve by using A380's in FRA ,but space is becomming a premium comodity and MUC,HAM,LEJ and CGN will benefit from Frankfurt's tight position.

Only Berlin will not, typical - Berlin is always running behind..............
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Leskova
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:07 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):
FRA has good rail links, maybe more of the shorter flights can be replaced by the high speed ICE trains?

LH officials have been quoted on occasion that they'd like to move the majority of domestic flights below 50 or 60 minutes duration to ICEs travelling with LH flightnumbers; my trains to Essen and back from Köln this past weekend both had LH flightnumbers as well.

You don't gain any time when flying from CGN to FRA over taking the train, even from DUS it should be, at best, equal if not still faster by train... and I think STR to FRA doesn't have much of an advantage in the air either...

Regards,
Frank
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BoomBoom
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capac

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 16):
Exactly the reason why the idea of using smaller aircraft like the 787 with higher frequency isn't always appropriate.

Using a jumbo or super jumbo isn't always appropriate either.

If you were flying from FRA to DTW, which would you rather do: Fly an A380 to JFK, change planes and go to DTW, or take an A330 nonstop? When the A380 enters service I doubt that LH will give up their nonstop A330 service to DTW, in order to relieve congestion in FRA.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 18):
You don't gain any time when flying from CGN to FRA over taking the train, even from DUS it should be, at best, equal if not still faster by train...

And what equipment is used on those flights? A320s and 737s? Eliminating some of these flights will free up room for the 787.

[Edited 2006-06-02 08:30:27]
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
LFutia
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:31 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 9):
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
MUC,HAM,LEJ and CGN will benefit from Frankfurt's tight position.

Yes and probably Zurich

and possibly Amsterdam. Afterall, Amsterdam is only a stone's throw away from Frankfurt Big grin

Leo
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scoliodon
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
If it was up to me, I'd probably decide to go to the forest where the runway is to be located, and with the help of a nice flamethrower take care of the whole problem (including tree huggers trying to protect the trees)

Hahaha..good one man!!  rotfl 

And the irony is, the same treehuggers would have boarded a dozen flights @ FRA to attend "Save our world from Airplanes" conferences.  Big grin
JFK-LGA-EWR-DTW-IND-PHX-CLE-SFO-LAS-SEA-ORD-MCO-MIA-DFW-ATL-CDG-FRA-BOM-MAA-DEL-TRZ-DXB-CLT-CVG-DEN-MSP
 
TriStar500
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:06 pm

This is not real "new" news - FRA has had these problems for at least the last seven or eight years. While there are -in theory - a few slots available, these lie during totally unattractive times of the day. All interesting time periods are already taken and will remain occupied unless a carrier goes belly-up.
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TS-IOR
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 pm

Which airlines have been rejected ?

As Frankfurt-Hahn is managed by Fraport, the solution is in !!! An extensive use of this so-called cargo and low-cost airfield and that's it  Wink
I know things aren't as easy as that, but, let's say, small charter airlines operating just two or three flights a week could be shifted to HHN allowing more slots for major airlines at FRA.
 
skyman
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:49 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 23):
two or three flights a week could be shifted to HHN

Do you know where Hahn is? In the middle of nowhere and no train going there either.

Quoting Columba (Reply 17):

Only Berlin will not, typical - Berlin is always running behind..............

Berlin is running behind but don't underestimate it. Traffic is growing there. The biggest mistake that they want to do is closing Tempelhof (EDDI). I would use it as a government and bizz airport. Otherwise BBI will have slot problems before even starting.
München will be the big winner. They already making plans for the third runway now. Which is also needed.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting Skyman (Reply 24):
nchen will be the big winner. They already making plans for the third runway now. Which is also needed.

They actually had those plans from the get-go in 1992, but so far the additional capacity was not needed, though that will likely change soon. Plus, MUC has the possibility to turn the baggage handling facility for T2 into a full new satellite terminal, which would add another large number of gates for mainline operations, and there's still plenty of space to add a then required new apron for the RJs and props.
 
skyman
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:01 pm

Concerning the capacity at M�nchen a third runway would help a lot. During peak times they got problems now and the peak times are getting more and more. Also don't forget it is our airport with lots of snow and was wisely built in a foghole.
 
keesje
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:06 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 15):
Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 14):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 12):
Ah yes, frequency restrictions ... it's all a scheme to force A380 purchases.

Sorry?

Just a joke.

If EU airports fix frequencies, it would be necessary to use larger planes to accommodate growth, thus promoting the sale of A380s. I don't believe this is actually happening ... yet.

 rotfl 

It is all one big European conspiracy to challenge Boeings point to point vs VLA vision!

 rotfl 
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Humberside
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:07 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 23):
I know things aren't as easy as that, but, let's say, small charter airlines operating just two or three flights a week could be shifted to HHN allowing more slots for major airlines at FRA.

Weren't Belavia meant to be starting HHN flights because they couldn't expand at FRA. Did these ever happen?

Quoting Skyman (Reply 24):
The biggest mistake that they want to do is closing Tempelhof (EDDI). I would use it as a government and bizz airport.

I would keep ithow it is now. I dont see how it would be any threat to Brandenburg, unlike keeping Tegel open would be
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PlaneHunter
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 19):
If you were flying from FRA to DTW, which would you rather do: Fly an A380 to JFK, change planes and go to DTW, or take an A330 nonstop? When the A380 enters service I doubt that LH will give up their nonstop A330 service to DTW, in order to relieve congestion in FRA.

Who ever has suggested that LH would give up existing nonstops? The A380 can help to increase capacity on certain routes without filling additional slots.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
BoomBoom
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 29):
Who ever has suggested that LH would give up existing nonstops?

Certainly not me, I think mid-size jets are the future.

When I was last in DTW I waiting for a commuter flight and could look across at the international gates. I saw the LH A330 arriving from FRA, AF A330 arriving form CDG, and the NW A330s arriving from who knows where. I saw the present and future of international air travel. The 787 and mid-size jets represent the mass market, the A380 is niche.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
StuckInCA
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Thread starter):
It seems MUC will benefit even more in the future if a fourth runway faces more delays



Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 9):
Yes and probably Zurich Big grin

In my opinion this would be great! As a passenger, I'm even willing to pay a premium to transfer at MUC or ZRH over FRA.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:59 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 30):
When I was last in DTW I waiting for a commuter flight and could look across at the international gates. I saw the LH A330 arriving from FRA, AF A330 arriving form CDG, and the NW A330s arriving from who knows where.

What's so special about all that? DTW is NW's transatlantic hub, AF connects two large SkyTeam hubs and LH connects a major American metropolis to its largest hub.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 30):
The 787 and mid-size jets represent the mass market, the A380 is niche.

I don't think anyone here questioned that.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
incitatus
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:03 pm

Next will be London Heathrow will lose the top stop among European airports to CDG.
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intothinair
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:38 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 33):
Next will be London Heathrow will lose the top stop among European airports to CDG.

I wouldn't be surprised if this happens, on top of that i would expect the likes of HKG and BKK to overtake FRA over the next 2-3 years interms of pax. numbers, and in maybe 4-5 years the likes of LHR.

cheers. Konstantin G.
 
dutchjet
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 23):
Which airlines have been rejected ?

Thats a good question......exactly which airlines have been unable to commence service at FRA?

Three comments:

1. Look for LH to further grow the Munich and Zurich (LX/LH) hubs to take some presssure off of FRA in the future.

2. Look for LH to re-discover German airports that are in cities other than FRA and MUC.....LH seems to be considering reintroducing some direct flights (especially to European destinatons) out of places like DUS, STR, HAM, CGN to take pressure off of FRA. After years of ignoring everything that was not FRA and MUC, LH per rumor is having a change of heart......the new small jets may be part of the reason.

3. Due to the concerns at FRA, look for LH to focus on large aircraft in the future as frequency gains are not really practical......for example, more A380 purchases, 748i purchases (downgrading current 744 routes to A346 capacity is not an option), a possibly 773ER purchase (lots of rumors about that lately, dont know what to make of them), phase out of the A343 in favor of A346/773ER to gain seats, and a serious look for an A300 replacment, as operating 2 A32X flights to replace one A300 flight is not really an option.

Seperate point......what about Cargo? Any possibility of moving some cargo operations to Hahn (which is in the middle of nowhere), I believe some cargo carriers now use Hahn instead of FRA, will that be the trend in the future??
 
Leskova
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
3. Due to the concerns at FRA, look for LH to focus on large aircraft in the future as frequency gains are not really practical......for example, more A380 purchases, 748i purchases (downgrading current 744 routes to A346 capacity is not an option), a possibly 773ER purchase (lots of rumors about that lately, dont know what to make of them), phase out of the A343 in favor of A346/773ER to gain seats, and a serious look for an A300 replacment, as operating 2 A32X flights to replace one A300 flight is not really an option.

If LH continues relocating passengers from the air onto trains within Germany, the option of sending two A321s in place of one A300 on routes where yields are high certainly is an option, though I'm not certain how far LH will go with that strategy; aside from that, while there is strong business travel from Frankfurt itself, when you take out connecting traffic because of increased flying from other airports within Germany, the A300 practically loses it's relevance.

I agree that the capacity gap between the A340-600 and A380-800 is too large for nothing to fill it, and I'd be surprised to not see LH ordering something to fill it - then again, the B747-400s still have quite a lot of life left in them, so I don't really expect them to be gone all that soon... although, by the time the B747-8 starts flying, some of the current B747-400s will have reached an age that could see them up for replacement.

As for the B777-300ER... what for? The plane offers nothing in terms of capacity that LH needs, it would be a completely separate - and, not to forget, extremely expensive - subfleet: I have serious doubts whether the rather enormous investment would come close to paying off, unless LH gets a more than just favorable deal from Boeing.

Then again... stranger things have happened...

But to all those thinking HHN could be a a relief airport for FRA... seriously... no, it could not. The only thing that chould be placed there, as Dutchjet already mentions, is cargo. For passengers, getting to HHN is really quite a pain in the a...... I'd need more time on the bus alone from Frankfurt to get to HHN than the time I need to walk from home to the train station, take the train into town, take another train to the airport, check in, walk to the gate and board the plane.

For that much, if I take the ICE to Köln (CGN has a train station, and some ICEs stop there), I can be there quicker than I can get to HHN (which is closer), and CGN has quite a presence of LCCs, so - at least for people living in Frankfurt - HHN really is irrelevant.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 4):
The A380 is supposed to give relief to restricted airports by reducing frequency in favor of capacity. At least it allows to substitute a smaller plane by a bigger one to increase capacity with constant frequency.



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 29):
Who ever has suggested that LH would give up existing nonstops? The A380 can help to increase capacity on certain routes without filling additional slots.

The above statements are true only if the wake vortex related separation distances are unchanged from those currently used for the A346/773ER/744. If other aircraft need greater separation when following an A380, then the A380 may not solve the slot shortage.

One more reason the last half of 2006 is going to be a lot of fun to watch.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
BA787
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:38 pm

Is lhr in the same position as FRA on the Capacity and green peace front lol
 
skyman
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 37):
If other aircraft need greater separation when following an A380, then the A380 may not solve the slot shortage.

Even if we have to add a mile for vortex separation it is still a lot better than an additional aircraft. At least six miles on the final more work, two gates and so on...

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
what about Cargo?

I think a good portion of cargo will be moved to Leipzig (EDDP) when they are done with their cargo terminal. So I think 2008 or so since DHL is going to build a big base there.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
Look for LH to re-discover German airports that are in cities other than FRA and MUC

I'm not sure they are going to have a big fight with the LCC HLX, EZY, GWI, BER which already have bases in these cities.
 
4xRuv
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Skyman (Reply 39):
Even if we have to add a mile for vortex separation it is still a lot better than an additional aircraft. At least six miles on the final more work, two gates and so on...

depends on which aircraft youre talking about..., becuase if instead of 6 A380 you have 7 744s, i think you'd go with the second option
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 9):
Yes and probably Zurich

Yes, wouldn´t that be ironic if ZRH whose growth has be obstructed by arbitrary, protectionist and possibly illegal German airspace restrictions were to profit from the inability of the German bureaucracy to get any major infrastructure project completed in less than two decades.  Wink
 
skyman
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capac

Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 40):
depends on which aircraft youre talking about..., becuase if instead of 6 A380 you have 7 744s, i think you'd go with the second option

Why? Even if mileage would come out the same you need one less gate.
 
4xRuv
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Skyman (Reply 42):
Why? Even if mileage would come out the same you need one less gate.

1.Diversity of destinations.
2. 744 official turnaround time - 60 min. 380 official turnaround time - 90 min. so the gate number is not a factor. more so, I'm not sure every gate in FRA fits an A380.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 43):
2. 744 official turnaround time - 60 min. 380 official turnaround time - 90 min. so the gate number is not a factor. more so, I'm not sure every gate in FRA fits an A380.

No carrier turns a B744 around in 60 minutes for a longhaul flight.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting Skyman (Reply 42):
Why? Even if mileage would come out the same you need one less gate.

Depends on what the choke point is. Is it runways slot or gate slots?

Since the discussion started with the second runway issue, it sounds like runway slots are more limiting, at least at present.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 41):
Yes, wouldn´t that be ironic if ZRH whose growth has be obstructed by arbitrary, protectionist and possibly illegal German airspace restrictions were to profit from the inability of the German bureaucracy to get any major infrastructure project completed in less than two decades.

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abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 9):
Yes and probably Zurich

= This would be absolutely fantastic. I would pay a premium to fly via ZRH to avoid FRA and of course CDG.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
4xRuv
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:05 pm

RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:24 pm

How come LHR manages with only two active rwys, but FRA can't with 3?
 
PanHAM
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RE: FRA Forced To Reject Airlines - Short Of Capacity

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:41 pm

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 48):
How come LHR manages with only two active rwys, but FRA can't with 3?

That is because the two parallel runways in FRA are too close to allow independent operation. It is seen more often mow in good wheather, but the allowed slots (82/hr) are based on average wheather conditions. The thjird runway is diagonal, which was a big political mistake, the usual bad compromise, had they build the third runway parallel instead, there would be no need for no. 4 now and FRA could accomodate all growth for years to come.

Besides, LHR serves one of the worlds biggest O/D markets, allowing larger planes and less feeder traffic which results in higher average pax numbers per plane.
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