aircanada014
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Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:54 am

Hello all


I know Canada and the USA won't offer cabbatoging but whats the chance they decide to reopen the talks and remove the Transborder Service then rename it North American Service in the near future? More competitions and more choices would be cool right? both airlines open up new hubs in Canada and the US. We'll still keep the nationalities for both countries but allow to offer seemless service anywhere in Canada and anywhere in the USA or within Canada or within USA. Remove all restrictions. Imagine CO and UA open up new hubs in YYZ and YVR while AC open up LAX and JFk. I know its been talking about it but can you imagine? If I'm correct some european countries are combining their airservice under one roof within European Union? I hope this makes any sense to you all  Smile

Thank you

your comments and oppinions are appreciate please.
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:16 am

Why stop with aviation? Canada and the US should really drop all barriers to trade -- a completely free-trade zone should exist.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:28 am

Oh.. I could say something that would make all Canadians mad at me.. and be coming to beat down my door.. LOL..

So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!  bouncy 
Aiming High and going far..
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:38 am

With the US pushing for cross border passport requirements, I don't think this is realistic. Even North American Free Trade is a shadow of the EU model.
Above and Beyond
 
cedarjet
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:41 am

What about Canadian domestic flight manifests being given to US authorities? I guess that already happens, after all, the US turned back that KLM flight from AMS to MEX, so they must have seen the passenger list. And I would think a lot of Canadian domestic flights enter US airspace. YYZ to Winnipeg is mostly over the US, for instance. With 80% of the Canadian population within a hundred miles or so of the US border, I would think 80% of their flights actually cross the border.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 3):
With the US pushing for cross border passport requirements, I don't think this is realistic. Even North American Free Trade is a shadow of the EU model

I'm going out on a limb on this one, but I'll predict the Passport rule for Canada will be dropped sooner than later. It really has been aimed at Mexico more than anything to try and stem the flow of illegal immigration. Just doesn't look politically correct to not include the Canuck's in this one as starters. The US and Canada particularly at the Stte and Provincial level cooperate and share a gerat deal of driver liscesing information as it is. the biometric features going into both US and Canadian passports will be featured in State and Provincial motor vehicle operator licenses in coming years as well. All the liberal bilingualists can  flamed  me now!
The biggest reason it doesn't become more liberal with airspace now, is ACs Robert Milton is so affraid of WN coming in and "Cherry-Picking all of his profitable routes!  hissyfit  The new bilateral agreement will allow a third country visit for example now and the charter carriers have pushed this even more than AC I'm told. Both Sunquest and Signature Vacations along with SkyService Charter Airlines want the ability to stop in the US enroute to some of their Caribbean and Mexican all-inclusive vacations during the November-April tourist season.
What really needs to happen is more competition on trans-49th routes. I hate paying $600 for RT airfare between SLC-YVR or SLC-YYC!
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DYK
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!

We only get mad cause we know its going to happen!
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
bistro1200
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting AirCanada014 (Thread starter):
allow to offer seemless service anywhere in Canada and anywhere in the USA or within Canada or within USA.

No need to create new hubs. Right now, you can't buy a YVR-ORD-YYZ flight on AA or UA, nor a LGA-YYZ-LAX fare on AC. Lifting cabotage rules would allow those fares to be sold. Canada and the USA already lifted 6th and 7th freedoms, allowing AC to fly LAXSYD, and Qantas SFOYVR as a revenue leg. There is nothing stopping a European carrier from offering revenue service from YYZ to the US, or vice versa.
Measure to the millimeter, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe.
 
AC777LR
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!

That may not be a bad Idea, however, you had better offer Free health care like we have in Canada, Big grin cuz then for me its good by Ontario, Hello Hawaii.
Member since April 2000
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 3):
With the US pushing for cross border passport requirements, I don't think this is realistic. Even North American Free Trade is a shadow of the EU model.

Which is somewhat based off the model within the US, between states.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
NWDC10
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:27 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL! bouncy

or "The United States Of Canada" LOL Robert NWD10
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting DYK (Reply 6):
We only get mad cause we know its going to happen!

LOL! When Quebec defects the Dominion, AB, BC, SA, MB all petition Congress for Statehood?
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
sebring
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!  

Actually, I was thinking 11th province!
 
YULYMX
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:41 am

A few US Airlines could use a Hub Like YUL which is at 50% capacity right now
 
accargo
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 5):
The biggest reason it doesn't become more liberal with airspace now, is ACs Robert Milton is so affraid of WN coming in and "Cherry-Picking all of his profitable routes!

Milton has publically stated that he would welcome a more liberal "open skies"
agreement with the US. Might want to check with some of your carriers to see where the actual concerns are.
 
ac7e7
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 2):
So I won't say anything.. not a single word.. 51st state will not come out of my mouth at ALL!

LOL

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Actually, I was thinking 11th province!

Just what I was thinking!

Quoting Accargo (Reply 14):
Milton has publically stated that he would welcome a more liberal "open skies"
agreement with the US. Might want to check with some of your carriers to see where the actual concerns are.

This is correct. Milton has been asking for cabotage for years. AC is positioned very well, especially with the E-Jets coming into the fleet. Milton only wants to ensure that cabotage rights were reciprocal. I remember when Davis Dingwall (former Transport Minister) talked about allowing US carriers into Canada without asking the same for AC in the States (in response to the merger between CP and AC). What a mofo.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Actually, I was thinking 11th province!

What are you talking about, thats the Turks and Caicos  Smile

Anyways, pull the border? Not gonna happen alas, not with the current American security fixation... It may not be an undefended border much longer...

As for seemless... well this could happen now. AC could offer connecting fares between US point and NW between Canadian points now, its just a problem of clearing up the legalities. US to US via Canada would actually be very simple thanks to preclearance zones at the major airports. Canada to Canada via the US more difficult EXCEPT those cities without preclearance in Canada... like some of the ones NW/NWExpress serve (Thunder Bay, London, Waterloo, etc).
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 13):
A few US Airlines could use a Hub Like YUL which is at 50% capacity right now

YUL thought they could become another YYZ. More Transport Canada $$$ from other Provinces going in to prop up Quebec's ego. And we thought the USA taxpayers got fleeced by various agencies for "pork" projects!  irked 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 10):
or "The United States Of Canada"



Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Actually, I was thinking 11th province!

I don't get it..
Aiming High and going far..
 
Sonic99
Posts: 625
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:06 am

airspace as one someday? I cetainly hope not.

[Edited 2006-06-02 00:07:11]
 
zvezda
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 1):
Canada and the US should really drop all barriers to trade

Not just trade, they should drop all the barriers. The only things at the border should be signs reading "Welcome to ...." There should be no passport control and no customs control between the US and Canada. It is an enormous waste of resources that benefits no one but the bureaucrats.

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 3):
With the US pushing for cross border passport requirements

Hopefully, that silliness will end when the current administration leaves office.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:33 am

Nah, just negotiate bilateral air agreements with other groups, like the EU, as one. Then the EU will have a harder time demanding cabotage within Canada and the US. They can't argue that domestic Canada or domestic US is similar to flights between nations in the EU if the US and Canada offer them what is in actuality the same thing.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:03 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
Hopefully, that silliness will end when the current administration leaves office.

It WILL HAPPEN BEFORE the administration leaves office, once the fence all along the Mexican border is in place!
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
threepoint
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 22):
once the fence all along the Mexican border is in place!

Which is akin to painting the Golden Gate bridge, it never ends. As soon as you build the fence, you have to go back to the beginning and start repairing all the holes, gaps and breaches where the prospective fieldworkers, gardeners and service industry workers pour through by the thousands. Good luck trying to effectively enforce any sort of physical barrier there.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
ANother
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:28 pm

Quoting Bistro1200 (Reply 7):
Canada and the USA already lifted 6th and 7th freedoms, allowing AC to fly LAXSYD, and Qantas SFOYVR as a revenue leg. There is nothing stopping a European carrier from offering revenue service from YYZ to the US, or vice versa.

Not quite - Canada and the US have granted each other unlimited onward 5ths. This allows AC to exercise 5th freedom rights LAX-SYD on their flight YYZ-LAX-SYD. They cannot operate LAX-SYD alone. AA could operate DFW-YVR-TYO but only if the Japanese also gave 5ths.

Australia has had 5th freedom rights SFO-YVR for decades. QF operated YVR-SFO-HNL-SYD in the 80s. These rights were granted to Australia by both the US and Canada.
 
tootallsd
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 22):
It WILL HAPPEN BEFORE the administration leaves office, once the fence all along the Mexican border is in place!

Now that's a really horrendous waste of money and an eyesore to boot.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:24 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
Hopefully, that silliness will end when the current administration leaves office.

Not unless Canada can ensure its immigrant population isn't a threat to the US. After all the millenium bomber was caught crossing the US-Canadian border with explosives. If they can't, then a fence should be built.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:29 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):
Not unless Canada can ensure its immigrant population isn't a threat to the US. After all the millenium bomber was caught crossing the US-Canadian border with explosives. If they can't, then a fence should be built.

Maybe even minefields would be useful. Ask Kim in North Korea, I'm sure he'll be happy provide some valuable know-how...  Yeah sure
 
goaliemn
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting AC777LR (Reply 8):
That may not be a bad Idea, however, you had better offer Free health care like we have in Canada, cuz then for me its good by Ontario, Hello Hawaii.

i've had many friends move here from Canada and if you have a job that offers benefits, its not much different than Canada, health wise. If you have no insurance, you can still get health care, just only emergency type care at hospitals.

But I digress.. I go to Canada alot. I have a CanPass which helps me get in quicker than going through passport control. I'd love to see a european style border, where once you're in the continent, you're in, but due to so many differences in the laws between countries, that would never happen. healthcare, guns, gay marriage just to name afew big differences.
 
AC777LR
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):
If they can't, then a fence should be built.

Get off the glue, cuz that's what your on. A fence will do nothing, what is your problem, people like you are just pathetic.
Member since April 2000
 
threepoint
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):
Not unless Canada can ensure its immigrant population isn't a threat to the US.

What a bigoted comment. You should start worrying about your own population, immigrant or otherwise, before you direct your ill-advised sermons northwards. Ever hear of a Mr. McVeigh? Mr. Kaczynski? Mr. Koresh?

Non-immigrant US citizens, all.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
sebring
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):

Not unless Canada can ensure its immigrant population isn't a threat to the US. After all the millenium bomber was caught crossing the US-Canadian border with explosives. If they can't, then a fence should be built.

I always laugh when I hear some American propose a fence or a wall between Canada and the U.S. I'd like to nominate you to build the wall down the middle of Lake Superior. I wonder how deep it would have to be, and how you are going to police it to make sure people with a decent sized boat don't pull up alongside and cut a hole in it. There isn't a fence that can't be scaled, breached, or tunnelled under. People kept escaping from East Berlin, even though that wall was monitored by police and soldiers in guard towers. You're talking about a wall/fence along a 4,000 mile border, much of it deep water and/or inhospitable mountain terrain, like the borderline between Quebec and Maine which is so heavily forested even airborne surveillance wouldn't likely spot someone scaling a fence or tunneling under it.

What you should note is that the so-called Millenium bomber was a boob who got caught at the border, and that the 17 arrested here last weekend were equally inept. With one or two exceptions, they were a bunch of adolescents living out an internet fantasy, like the Lackawanna nine, or how many they were, or the Virginia Islamic forces or whatever they were called. It was just a 3-D video-game, except for the 2-3 zealots who were watched closely by police almost from the day they began talking about their hair-brained scheme.

These home grown terrorists are far cry from the European variety who seem to acquire advanced bomb-making training and plastic explosives, possibly from other European sources like crime syndicates in Russia or the old east bloc. Meanwhile, the truly dangerous terrorists - the ones sent by Al Quada on Sept 11 with money and a sophisticated plan - entered the US from international flights landing in the US.

Canada is no threat to the US because we value the intergrity of the border. Unlike Mexico, we police our border. We don't want people smuggling guns or cigarettes or people into Canada, and we want to keep the border open for commerce.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:56 am

If full freedoms as to flight rights existed, there goes AC to be replaced by all of the USA companies. I am quite sure the unions at AC won't let it happen and put a lot of pressure on Parlament in Ottawa to keep the current status. The USA and Canada also likes a border that while full of holes, is a kind of a technical barrier to undesirable people or stuff like guns, drugs, criminals, etc.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 31):
Canada is no threat to the US because we value the intergrity of the border. Unlike Mexico, we police our border. We don't want people smuggling guns or cigarettes or people into Canada, and we want to keep the border open for commerce

While that might be true, I tend to be less unconcerned about the people crossing the Southern border simply because it is difficult for Islamic terrorists to operate in Mexico. Mexico is far stricter about legal and illegal immigrants than the US or Canada. And while there are all sorts of unsavory characters crossing the southern border, few of them are interested in being an existential threat to the US. In contrast such groups can more easily establish themselves in the Canada.

As for the millenium bomber, it luck that he was caught at the border.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
sebring
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 33):
While that might be true, I tend to be less unconcerned about the people crossing the Southern border simply because it is difficult for Islamic terrorists to operate in Mexico. Mexico is far stricter about legal and illegal immigrants than the US or Canada. And while there are all sorts of unsavory characters crossing the southern border, few of them are interested in being an existential threat to the US. In contrast such groups can more easily establish themselves in the Canada.

That's crazy. How hard is it to take a flight from Europe to Mexico City, take an internal flight to a border city, and walk across into the States? It's not a question of whether certain Islamic terrorists are active in Mexico, but how easy it would be for one of them to gain access to the States via the Southern border. How do you know the intentions of the hundreds of thousands crossing into the US from Mexico annually. Have you screened them all? Maybe some of them are Castro agents, or Venezuelan agents of Chavez. How hard would it be for them to blend in?
 
goaliemn
Posts: 320
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 33):
Mexico is far stricter about legal and illegal immigrants than the US or Canada.

I will agree on this point. Its almost too easy to get asylum in Canada, compared to the US rules. Many could sneak into canada under some of these conditions.

Granted, I don't know the mexican rules, so I can't compare.
 
HanginOut
Posts: 522
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RE: Canada And USA Airspace As One Someday?

Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 35):
Its almost too easy to get asylum in Canada, compared to the US rules. Many could sneak into Canada under some of these conditions.

This isn't the big problem it used to be as only if people arrive in Canada by air or sea from overseas, are allowed to claim asylum. The US and Canada signed an agreement cracking down on asylum shopping and have agreed that if someone crosses from either country into the other and claims asylum that they are sent back to the country they arrived from to await the determination of their claim (e.g. If someone crosses the border from Canada into the US and claims asylum, they're shipped back to Canada until their claim is decided). Of course this only works on asylum seekers, illegal immigrants will keep quiet and try to disappear.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
Not just trade, they should drop all the barriers. The only things at the border should be signs reading "Welcome to ...." There should be no passport control and no customs control between the US and Canada. It is an enormous waste of resources that benefits no one but the bureaucrats.

Couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately, this will only happen when and if the US and Canada agree to harmonize their immigration, visa, and border security policies (better known as the Fortress North America option). This would mean that only someone who meets both Canadian and US entry criteria would be allowed in and then would be free to travel anywhere within Canada and the US. This not likely going to happen anytime soon as they are too many naysayers to allow this to happen (the anti-anything American crowd in Canada and the security before anything else crowd in the US).
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