NASOCEANA
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"Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:39 am

I find this rather ridiculous that an manufacturer can blame their missteps on their customers. All they had to do was ask! And for one many told them before hand that their A350 was inferior to its market place rival.

Quote:
"Airbus has taken a swipe at potential and existing customers for its A350 long-range twinjet for failing to supply timely feedback during the development effort, admitting that any newly-designed variant could not be ready until at least 2012.

In a hard-hitting interview with UK broadcaster BBC in its Hard Talk series, Airbus chief operating officer, Charles Champion, says the airframer "underestimated how much our customers wanted a competition between Airbus and Boeing with a new product from our side". He adds that "constructive criticism" that Airbus welcomes during the development phase of any new aircraft came "a bit late, maybe"....

FlightInternational

[Edited 2006-06-01 18:42:54]
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katekebo
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:50 am

I think both his comments are really stupid.

Quote:
"underestimated how much our customers wanted a competition between Airbus and Boeing with a new product from our side".

- So what was he expecting, that the customers would just keep on buying an inferior product because it's called Airbus?

Quote:
"constructive criticism" that Airbus welcomes during the development phase of any new aircraft came "a bit late, maybe"....

- The criticism did not come late, it was Airbus who was slow to listen and respond.

When will they set their stupid pride aside and learn that being humble is a quality?
 
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Stitch
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:56 am

Well they said much the same about the A380's delays, blaming them on the fancy cabins that customers wanted. Of course, I seem to recall all of Airbus' mockups showed said fancy cabins...

That being said, Boeing was also arrogant when they were on top in the 1990's, and they paid for it with lost sales and customers to Airbus. Perhaps it is just the pendulum swinging back.

Once Airbus takes their own beating at the hands of Boeing, they too will learn humility and respond to the customer again, just as they so effectively did then and Boeing has remembered to do again now.
 
andessmf
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:58 am

Dumb response! Just plain dumb.

There are other threads where is noted how Airbus is showing the correct response. But blaming your customers for not providing you with correct feedback is beyond logic.
 
Zeus419
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:09 am

I think the way that Flight has turned that little side comment from Champion into a whole news story, with that title and intro is completely OTT.

Many of us here saw that HardTalk programme around a fortnight ago, and nobody interpreted the comment in the way Flight is now doing, in what I can only see as a cheap headline-grabbing tactic. And long after the event too.

[Edited 2006-06-01 19:16:19]
 
RichardPrice
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 1):
- So what was he expecting, that the customers would just keep on buying an inferior product because it's called Airbus?

Airbus was willing to concede the majority of the market to Boeing by making a less costly investment in a inferior product, but taking a percentage that allows them to stay in the game with minimal effort. Airbuses customers wanted a full competitor, and thats whats pushed the current situation.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3):
There are other threads where is noted how Airbus is showing the correct response. But blaming your customers for not providing you with correct feedback is beyond logic.

Who says they are blaming customers? Certainly not the article, it just says the criticism may have come a little late, but it certainly doesnt allude to any blame cast for that. It could be that Airbus forged ahead in one direction before listening to the customers.

However, I think that many people are going to blow this guys comments out of proportion.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:35 am

Go ahead......alienate all your good cutomers. There are lots of people in Seattle willing to do the serious work of building airplanes.

Seriously, have you ever seen anything like it? There must be turbulance en masse within the corporate HQ that we can only immagine.

Who would do something so incredibly stupid as to slap your customers around in the press?
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kaitak
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:37 am

With respect, I don't think people are blowing things out of proportion. This was a monumentally stupid thing to say. Boeing has had customer input for a good while (for example with the 777 - and I'm sure with the 787 too); Airbus had the chance to do that. Did they do so? No - whose fault is that?

It could also be the fact that Airbus promised the world with the 350 and as a result airlines' expectations were high; the criticism only came when it was clear that the aircraft wasn't going to meet this - as well as the fact that the fuselage wasn't wide enough.

Pick any point on the A350's development timeline and it's clear that it was all Airbus's fault - if fault is the right word. They were clearly taken aback and they acted quickly and without thinking their product through.

That's no one's fault but Airbus's.

However, I think this goes further. To criticise customers for criticising their airplane, when they didn't reach out in the first place, is more than just stupid, it's arrogant - and an excellent way to justify Boeing increasing its production rate to 16 per month. I can see a very negative reaction to this idiocy.
 
ikramerica
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:41 am

I think it really points to the difference in the 787 design program and the 350 design program.

The 787 was a cooperative effort with airlines from the beginning, while the 350 was a response product. Airbus asked for feedback, but the airlines were not part of the "design team" in the same way.

Which is not to say the 787 is going to get orders from every airline on the design team. So far, they haven't. Anyone have a list of the "team" airlines for the 787? NH and JL were on it and both ordered, I believe the same is true for CO. AA has yet to order, nor has LH, BA or SQ, all airlines that I'm pretty sure were part of the design process.

I would assume that this time around, the new Airbus model will be far more customer focused. There can be an advantage there, as some customers who haven't bit on the 787 due to some compromises in it's design might be able to persuade Airbus to fill those gaps.
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airways45
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
The 787 was a cooperative effort with airlines from the beginning, while the 350 was a response product. Airbus asked for feedback, but the airlines were not part of the "design team" in the same way

Airbus had the same process for the A3XX now A380. Many airlines were on the design team. There were airlines such as BA who were on the design team but haven't placed an order.

Airways45
 
11Bravo
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
I think it really points to the difference in the 787 design program and the 350 design program.

It also points to a completely dysfunctional Public Relations program at Airbus. They may well have some design and strategy problems, that remains to be seen.

One thing is certain, however, Airbus has a serious problem with its executives and program directors running around with diarrhea of the mouth. These guys build some nice aircraft, but their PR is pure amateur hour.
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airways45
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 10):
but their PR is pure amateur hour.

Agreed. Airbus need to learn from Boeing's excellent PR machine.

However, I think what annoyed some people was the very 'public' A350 bashing coming from airlines and leasing companies. The point Airbus is trying to make was that they were making these points in public far down the process.

However, my theory that certain Airbus executives put these customers up to the public bashing remains strong. The faction in Airbus that wanted a change to a clean sheet was delighted when the bashing was so public. Maybe we are seeing part of the backlash from those in Airbus that didn't sign up to the public bashing.

Airways45
 
airwave
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:59 am

What. The. Hell? Business 101, boys--don't be an asshole to your big-money customers.  Yeah sure

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 6):
Go ahead......alienate all your good cutomers. There are lots of people in Seattle willing to do the serious work of building airplanes.

 checkmark  Hark! Do I hear Rolodexes being dusted off?  Wink

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
I think it really points to the difference in the 787 design program and the 350 design program.

The 787 was a cooperative effort with airlines from the beginning, while the 350 was a response product. Airbus asked for feedback, but the airlines were not part of the "design team" in the same way.

Precisely. In everything I've read, it almost seems like including potential customers in the process was an afterthought, and a pretty spectacularly bad one at that. Airbus doesn't seem to have made any sort of reconciliation for it, either. Ah, well, their loss, no doubt.


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threepoint
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 6):
Seriously, have you ever seen anything like it? There must be turbulance en masse within the corporate HQ that we can only immagine.

Who would do something so incredibly stupid as to slap your customers around in the press?



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
That being said, Boeing was also arrogant when they were on top in the 1990's, and they paid for it with lost sales and customers to Airbus. Perhaps it is just the pendulum swinging back

There's your answer DAYflyer. Boeing did lose some ground due to some previous arrogance. It would appear that with the 777 program and now the 787, that they are listening to and involving the customer from the outset, which probably explains a good deal of their success.
I wouldn't (like many on this thread already) interpret the comments as a 'swipe' at their customers. While perhaps a bit irresponsible to claim (I mean come on Airbus, own your mistakes), it's hardly the PR disaster that many claim. Having said this, I fully expect a few changes in the upper echelon at Airbus.
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TinkerBelle
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:03 am

Really dumb this to say if you ask me.

Can't wait to read manni's and Keesje's response to this..  biggrin 
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airways45
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:08 am

Where's the evidence that Airbus didn't listen to their customers and Boeing did? If you are going to quote Singapore's comments on Airbus, the same could be said against Boeing and Emirates, where only now Boeing is offering a larger 787 (which it didn't want to do initially so soon due to the effect on future 777 sales)

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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:10 am

It could also be Boeing's fault - or credit, depending on how you look at it. As Boeing progressed with their program, they may have felt growing confidence to offer increased guarantees about their product's performance. Given the earlier guarantees, Airbus and their customers may have thought the A350 design would hold up, but it later appeared inadequate against later 787 guarantees.

Or not. It may be that Airbus and some airlines just didn't believe Boeing could deliver on their claims, which were pretty ambitious even then.

There's always much room for uncertainty about what your competitor may be capable of doing, vs. what he is likely to do, vs. what he has been doing. Your best response could be different in each case. If you always fret too much about the worst case, you may never pull the trigger on a new product investment.  tombstone MD tombstone  Sometimes you place your bet and miss.
 
ikramerica
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 10):
It also points to a completely dysfunctional Public Relations program at Airbus. They may well have some design and strategy problems, that remains to be seen.

But as I said, the 787 process hasn't exactly translated into orders from all those customers on the team, so it's not a given that that process is superior.

But...

Quoting Airwave (Reply 12):
Precisely. In everything I've read, it almost seems like including potential customers in the process was an afterthought, and a pretty spectacularly bad one at that. Airbus doesn't seem to have made any sort of reconciliation for it, either. Ah, well, their loss, no doubt.

In the 787 (and 380, one would assume), Boeing (Airbus) went to customers and asked "if you could have an entirely new plane with no legacy parts or ideas locked in, what would you want it to be?"

This is what likely happened with the 350 after Airbus gave up on the reengined 330 gambit:

Airbus said to customers that "we want all the input you want to give us as long as..."

A. we keep the same fuselage cross section
B. we use the same engines as the 787
C. we use as much of the 330/340 as possible
D. we don't have to invest $10 billion to make it happen

Airlines answered back: okay, but what if we abandon A, C and D?

That's where we are now...
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RL757PVD
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:13 am

Reminds me of the simpsons episode where Homer gets to design the "everyman's car".

Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
leelaw
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Zeus419 (Reply 4):
I think the way that Flight has turned that little side comment from Champion into a whole news story, with that title and intro is completely OTT.

Many of us here saw that HardTalk programme around a fortnight ago, and nobody interpreted the comment in the way Flight is now doing, in what I can only see as a cheap headline-grabbing tactic. And long after the event too.

Perhaps it took the reporter a while to find the time to wade through this twenty-three minute interview and cherry-pick this item as a basis for a news article? stirthepot  He doesn't indicate whether customers have actually been offended and/or amused by Champion's seemingly silly remark. Perhaps they weren't aware of it until now? Most likely a slow news day in London, or the reporter aspires to be a columnist.  Smile
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ikramerica
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 15):
Where's the evidence that Airbus didn't listen to their customers and Boeing did?

Where did we say that? It is a discussion of the structure of the design process, and that is not a matter of opinion with this model. The 787 (and 380) were designed in a far more customer focused way, while the 350 was a "response product" and suffered from many of the pitfalls such a product can have. Chasing a moving target while also trying to please all the customers who had reservations about certain 787 aspects leads to this...

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 18):
Reminds me of the simpsons episode where Homer gets to design the "everyman's car".

A plane with 'everything' that doesn't work for anybody.

Including "Rack and peanut steering."
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zvezda
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:26 am

Some people at Airbus get it e.g. Humbert and some don't e.g. Forgeard. Champion seems to be somewhere in the middle. What he said wasn't smart, but "swipe" seems to me an overstatement. He should however have known that the press love sensationalism because it sells. Anyway, I hope Humbert wins the struggle against Forgeard so that Airbus can clean house of such arrogance. Champion and others would probably quickly get with the program once Forgeard is (hopefully) gone.
 
11Bravo
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
But as I said, the 787 process hasn't exactly translated into orders from all those customers on the team

We're getting a bit OT here, but we are still two years away from EIS. I'd say it's more than a bit premature to judge that process.

Anyway, whether the design process is more inclusive or less so, it's still just plain stupid to publicly criticize potential customers for your own shortcomings.
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zvezda
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 15):
Where's the evidence that Airbus didn't listen to their customers and Boeing did? If you are going to quote Singapore's comments on Airbus, the same could be said against Boeing and Emirates, where only now Boeing is offering a larger 787 (which it didn't want to do initially so soon due to the effect on future 777 sales)

The difference is that the B787-8 is the fastest selling widebody model in history.
 
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mariner
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Thread starter):
I find this rather ridiculous that an manufacturer can blame their missteps on their customers.

Um - he says:

Quoting NASOCEANA (Thread starter):
e adds that "constructive criticism" that Airbus welcomes during the development phase of any new aircraft came "a bit late, maybe"....

That's blaming the customers? It's a simple statement of fact.

It is also one sentence picked from a longer interview - there is no sense of context.

mariner
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NASOCEANA
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
Quoting NASOCEANA (Thread starter):
e adds that "constructive criticism" that Airbus welcomes during the development phase of any new aircraft came "a bit late, maybe"....

That's blaming the customers? It's a simple statement of fact.

It is also one sentence picked from a longer interview - there is no sense of context.

The customers did not set the time table that Airbus is chose to use!

If he did not believe that the customer were at least at some kind of fault he would never have made such an ambiguous comment!

Now if I'm a customer, I really did care what the intent was. What counts is how I interpret it! That's why many company's issue their employee's code of conduct policies whether at the work place or on your own time!

Now whether it will cost Airbus orders, probably not. Will it cost them negotiating leverage with offended customers, Maybe!
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DAYflyer
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting Airways45 (Reply 15):
Where's the evidence that Airbus didn't listen to their customers and Boeing did?

Respectfully, I think that the sales of the 787 vs the A-350 is the proof.

If you build what the customers want, they buy it. To know what they want, you must get input from them, unless you have a magic crystal ball. Apparently the crystal ball employed by Airbus was down for mx at the time it was consulted on the A-350.  stirthepot 
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mariner
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 25):
If he did not believe that the customer were at least at some kind of fault he would never have made such an ambiguous comment!

How is the comment "ambiguous"? Or, if it is ambiguous, how is it a swipe? Look at one instance.

ILFC is a most important customer for Airbus. If Mr. Udvar-Hazy thought the A350 was such a turkey, then (a) why did he order any and (b) why wait so long to say it is a turkey?

Unless we have access to the full interview, we have no idea what the context of that single sentence is.

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 25):
Will it cost them negotiating leverage with offended customers, Maybe!

I think it is remarkable that you can draw such conclusions from one sentence in a long interview.

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BoomBoom
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:07 am

This is not the first time Airbus has blamed the customers, they did it with the A380 delay too.

You should never blame the customers--even if it's true--you should NEVER blame the customers.
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mariner
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:25 am

I don't see "blame".

mariner
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NASOCEANA
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 29):
I don't see "blame".

mariner

What is it that you get from the article?
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RL757PVD
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:40 am

Anyone who's ever worked in retail knows that THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT... (though anyone who works in retail knows that this is not true, but you dont tell the customer that!!)
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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Stitch
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
But as I said, the 787 process hasn't exactly translated into orders from all those customers on the team, so it's not a given that that process is superior.

I believe QF was part of the original "Working Together" 777 program, and they have yet to order any member of the family and may very well skip it all-together and just use the 787...

[Edited 2006-06-01 22:43:32]
 
slz396
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Zeus419 (Reply 4):
I think the way that Flight has turned that little side comment from Champion into a whole news story, with that title and intro is completely ODD.

I fully agree!

Looking only at what Mr. Champion actually said and interpreting it ourselves rather than just take the Flight International interpretation for it, I see Mr. champion saying AIRBUS UNDERESTIMATED the need of their customers (which is far from a swiping comment on their customers, I'd say), adding their constructive criticism (again, a very humble remark) came rather late (which was true in fact) during the development phase of the A350.

I am extremely surprised about this article, not only because Flight International is making news out of an interview of almost 2 weeks ago, but also because they are interpreting honest, fair and polite comments in a way which would suit Mr Baseler himself.

Coming to think of it, how imaginary would it be to have Boeing -which has recently discovered just how important a positive image is with the widespread public of aviation enthusiasts, hence their already notorious "blog" for instance- try to 'buy' authors of wide spread aviation magazines to report overly negative on their biggest competitor?

I'd be very interested in hearing the reason why Flight International all of a sudden decided there was a need for this article, when in fact there is no NEWS in there and no FACTS either.... Is it because it is a quite period, or is there really more to it?
 
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mariner
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 30):
What is it that you get from the article?

Without seeing the full interview, it is very hard to know precisely what was said, but I get the impression that Airbus thought everything was okay, because no one said otherwise.

Basically - and as I said in my first post - I see a simple statement of fact: "we thought everything was okay".

As with Mr. Udvar-Hazy. It the A350 was such a dog, why did he order some?

If a customer buys aircraft from you, I think it is fair to assume that the customer likes the plane.

Don't you?

mariner
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leelaw
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 27):
Unless we have access to the full interview, we have no idea what the context of that single sentence is.

A link to the full interview is available at the end of today's FI article as well as here: Airbus Champion's Hard Talk (by Pihero May 19 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Ms. Monatgue and Mr. Champion do in fact discuss Mr. Udvar-Hazy's "behavior."

Here's a direct link as well:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/4993832.stm

[Edited 2006-06-01 22:47:53]
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MD80Nut
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:52 am

I think the real reason for the A350 situation was simple: Airbus panicked. When they saw all the orders and attention the 787 was getting they tried to slap something together rather than doing the smart thing, waiting to see if the new technologies and concepts of the 787 worked and then carefully design and build a response.

It's important to note that the wide body twin market is so big these days no one manufacturer is going to dominate or keep another manufacturer from succeeding if that second manufacturer puts together a good design that meets the airlines needs. Look at the history of wide body twins, the 767 came a decade or so after the A300 yet it was a success even though it arrived long after. It succeeded because rather than compete directly with the A300, Boeing put together a smaller, longer range type that opened new opportunities for airlines. Same with the A330, despite coming into service over a decade after the 767, succeeded because Airbus, instead of producing a me too product, built an airplane that at the time it entered service with the -300 variant, was the largest wide body twin in the world and it opened new opportunities for the airlines. Same with the 777.

I have no doubt Airbus can build a successful response to the 787. They just have to be smart, don't panic and realize that even if their product arrives years after the 787, it will be popular if they do it right. There are many airlines who recently acquired A330s, 767s and 777s who won't need a replacement anytime soon. Whenever Airbus introduces a response, it will succeed if Airbus does it right, because the demand for wide body twins is that big.

Cheers, Ralph
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NASOCEANA
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):
why did he order some?

To lease to another airline.

Example: Take a Car Dealership owner for example. If I own 3 dealerships that sell Ford, Suburau, BMW. I purchase the automobiles because I can sell them to my customers. I don't have to like the product if I can sell/lease and make a profit in the end. I could drive a Toyota or Mercedes-Benz.
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mariner
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 37):
To lease to another airline.

ILFC always leases. ILFC is not an airline, ILFC is a leasing company, it's what they do.

But they are fairly careful not to lease dogs to their customers, otherwise their customers will go to GECAS or SALE.

mariner
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slz396
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 37):
To lease to another airline.
But then the question becomes: 'why did he subsequently oust his doubts about the plane?'
Not really good publicity for his planes on lease, is it?

I think Mr. Champion is right in that Airbus did not get much constructive feedback until very late. Those who had ordered the A350 were obviously more than satisfied with it (and its not like the A350 is a bad plane, it is a heavily improved A330 which is still the best there is in its class so far), so ILFC probably thought they could lease out the Toyota's as you put it quite easily, but found out it was going to be more difficult then expected and thus pulled the alarm bell quite loudly (i.e. publicly). Other airlines then jumped on the band wagon too and got the stream of comments going... albeit at a very late stage.

I think the failure to read the market is not only Airbus' but also (and maybe even more so) ILFC's/GECAS. All PR-talk aside, Airbus knew from the start their A350 was going to be just a runner up to the all new 787, so they'd settled for the smaller share of what is considered a huge market anyway. The leasing companies thought they could find more than enough takers for this kind of slightly inferior plane too and ordered it right away, but apparently completely misread the needs of today's airlines, who nowadays do not want to settle for second best no longer, but want only the best. ILFC/GECAS saw their mistake and feared they had committed to a plane which would be extremely hard to lease out at normal rates, yet must have found it very hard to convince Airbus, blinded by the relative success of their initial orders (from the leasing companies).

[Edited 2006-06-01 23:48:43]
 
NASOCEANA
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 39):
so ILFC probably thought they could lease out the Toyota's as you put it quite easily, but found out it was going to be more difficult then expected and thus pulled the alarm bell quite loudly (i.e. publicly). Other airlines the jumped on the band wagon too and got the stream of late comments going.

 checkmark  I agree 100%
B777 greatest Airliner ever built!
 
douwd20
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 38):
ut they are fairly careful not to lease dogs to their customers, otherwise their customers will go to GECAS or SALE.

I don't think that's the point. As long as the lessor can find someone to lease it at a favorable rate why not buy it? A chef isn't crazy about every meal he makes.
 
slz396
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 40):
I agree 100%

Thanks.

But that means MR. Champion is right when he says Airbus didn't get much constructive feedback on their A350 from its customers till very late, so unless the 2 of us have a better understanding of the off-scene events surrounding plane sales than Flight International, I wonder how Flight International can still have come to their controversial conclusion in good faith Airbus is taking a swipe at its customers, when Mr. Champion says Airbus got negative comments from customers only very late in the design?
 
douwd20
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:07 am

Seattle Times:

Udvar-Hazy said his company placed the A350 order because those planes will sell well enough in the short term if priced much less than the 787. It's the jet's long-term future he is concerned about.
 
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mariner
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting Douwd20 (Reply 41):
I don't think that's the point. As long as the lessor can find someone to lease it at a favorable rate why not buy it? A chef isn't crazy about every meal he makes.

Of course. But if they believe that they couldn't lease it on - that it was a commercial dog - they wouldn't order it in the first place.

ILFC believed they could lease it on.

So - again - we come back to the critical point. If a customer buys an aircraft, I think it is fair to assume that the customer likes the aircraft.

"likes" in the sense of "sees a commercial value" in the aircraft.

It was only after the event, quite late in the process, that Mr. Udvar-Hazy launched his broadside.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
aerokiwi
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 39):
I think Mr. Champion is right in that Airbus did not get much constructive feedback until very late.

I think it's more a matter of Airbus preconditioning the "consulting process", whereby they said the following...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
Airbus said to customers that "we want all the input you want to give us as long as..."

A. we keep the same fuselage cross section
B. we use the same engines as the 787
C. we use as much of the 330/340 as possible
D. we don't have to invest $10 billion to make it happen

Airlines answered back: okay, but what if we abandon A, C and D?

That's where we are now...

...and the airlines didn't dispute the proposed A350 under those preconditions. Problem for Airbus was (and still is) is that these preconditions aren't what the airlines wanted in the first place. It appears to be THAT phase of the development process that Airbus didn't get to grips with.

[Edited 2006-06-02 00:17:03]
 
slz396
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:19 am

In other words:

Mr. Champion said quite reasonable things on the A350 in the interview, putting a lot of blame on Airbus (which FI simply ignores), yet also pointing at mistakes make by lead customers like ILFC, which are shown here to be real rather than imaginary like FI seems to think, so that leads me to the question as to why Flight International has such a slanted interpretation of what can now be considered as a fair statement?

Is it just the need for news during quiet periods?
Or has Boeing indeed infiltrated the redaction of this magazine in an effort not to miss a single occasion to put its competitor in a bad day light, thus trying to take public momentum away from the upcoming re-launch of the A350 as 777-killer as some have already suggested in the past?
Personally I have always simply dismissed those claims as being the product of a way to vivid imagination, but looking at how FI digs into a 2-week old interview to find ambiguous isolated remarks, which it can then interpret quite strongly, just to create another harm full article on Airbus, I say I am not so sure anymore really...

[Edited 2006-06-02 00:25:45]
 
leelaw
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 46):
s it just the need for news during quiet periods?
Or has Boeing indeed infiltrated the redaction of this magazine in an effort not to miss a single occasion to put its competitor in a bad day light, thus trying to take public momentum away from the upcoming re-launch of the A350 as 777-killer?

Does Boeing need to teach/coach FI how to stir the pot in order to sell magazines?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
slz396
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 47):
Does Boeing need to teach/coach FI how to stir the pot in order to sell magazines?

Certainly not, but it might be worth the effort having authors of articles in FI with them rather than against them, don't you think?

That way, if they need to stir a pot to sell magazines during quiet periods, it will be the competitor's pot rather than theirs.

Next time when you read FI, it might be a good thing to bear in mind they could be the FOX NEWS of aviation.... Some scepticism is always good to start off with if you are after the truth and somebody is extremy willing to offer you his view on the matter.

[Edited 2006-06-02 00:42:35]
 
manni
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RE: "Airbus Takes Swipe At Customers"

Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 14):
Can't wait to read manni's and Keesje's response to this..

Well, well,... keep waiting Tinkerbelle. I don't do requests.  Yeah sure
Furthermore, I, likely like many others who have replied to this topic, did not see the interview. Any input would be purely speculation based at best on the input of another a.netter.
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