aeroplan73
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Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:16 am

I am not sure if this is appropriate to ask here, so please bear with me.

On the Airbus site, it lists AC as having three new A340 aircraft 'on order'.

As I understand it, they were looking to phase out their A330, A340, and B762 aircraft for new B787 and B777.

Does anyone know what series of A340 they ordered, and if those are part of the airlines' future?

Thank you.
I remember, the choices were chicken or fish. I had the lasagna.
 
trex8
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:18 am

IIRC these are the A346s they will never take delivery of
 
aeroplan73
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Thread starter):
IIRC these are the A346s they will never take delivery of

Thank you for the information. That is a shame, the A346 would have looked nice in AC colours.
I remember, the choices were chicken or fish. I had the lasagna.
 
ha763
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 1):
IIRC these are the A346s they will never take delivery of

And were cancelled by AC when they ordered the 777s. When AC went through their reorganization, they were able to negotiate very favorable terms regarding the A346 order. It allowed AC to cancel the order with minimal financial penalty.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Reply 2):
That is a shame, the A346 would have looked nice in AC colours.

I think the Boeing 772s, 773s and new 787s will look MUCH BETTER in AC Colors:
A Boeing 777-200LR in Air Canada Colors!

I think the 773ER will be much nicer looking than any A346!

[Edited 2006-06-02 04:20:25]
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
HPAEAA
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:21 am

So just a question... does AC still have those orders on the books or where they canned in the bankrupsy courts?
Why do I fly???
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:02 pm

IIRC, the orders were deferred until 2010 with no cancellation penalty. I think they will still be on the books until AC actually takes possession of its first few 773ERs - more of just a contingency than anything else. It isn't costing them anything to keep this option open, even though the chance of them exercising it is very close to zero.
 
aeroplan73
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:20 pm

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Thread starter):
I think the 773ER will be much nicer looking than any A346!

No doubt the 773ER is going to look sharp in AC colours. I have always been impressed with the A346, so it would have been nice to fly at least once with AC.

I guess I'll settle for the A345.  boxedin 
I remember, the choices were chicken or fish. I had the lasagna.
 
milan320
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
I think the Boeing 772s, 773s and new 787s will look MUCH BETTER in AC Colors

You're right, paint the 772 and 773 in ACs toothpaste colour and a suddenly a dull looking plane will look somewhat more interesting.  biggrin 

I don't think the ACs colour scheme actually gives much to any plane. Let alone the majestic A346.

-Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
OHLHD
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting Milan320 (Reply 8):

I don't think the ACs colour scheme actually gives much to any plane. Let alone the majestic A346.

Can´t agree more! Very poor colour scheme!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting Milan320 (Reply 8):
I don't think the ACs colour scheme actually gives much to any plane. Let alone the majestic A346.

Two Changes I would make to the AC livery:
1. Engine Cowlings would be pained red with the AC Maple Leaf Logo in white.
2. The "Toothpaste color would be changed to the same metallic color used by NW (Something I would like to see DL do as well!).
This would be one really hot looking 773ER or 772LR! Big grin
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 9):
Can´t agree more! Very poor colour scheme!



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
The "Toothpaste color would be changed to the same metallic color used by NW (Something I would like to see DL do as well!).

AC designed this colour scheme so it would look different under different conditions. It's suppose to be relating the changing times of AC. I've seen AC birds with the new c/s that look white, and ones that look very blue. I think AC could of done a better job on the scheme but it definitely echos AC new corporate image.

KrisYYZ



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SLCUT2777
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Thread starter):
Does anyone know what series of A340 they ordered, and if those are part of the airlines' future?

As I understand it, with the procurement of the Boeing 772s, 773s and 787s, AirBus wide-bodies will be phased out of A's fleet over the next few years as these come on line. My opinion is Boeing wide-bodies are best right now for AC as well as DL.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
burnsie28
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Reply 7):
I guess I'll settle for the A345. boxedin

Which are destined for the desert not too long from now.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 11):

AC designed this colour scheme so it would look different under different conditions.

NW's color scheme changes in the light as well.
 
WINGS
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 13):
Which are destined for the desert not too long from now.

Is this some kind of a joke? Those birds will find homes relatively easy, the same can be said for their A343 as well. Many airlines still prefer Airbus widebody's over those offered by Boeing.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 13):
Which are destined for the desert not too long from now.

The A345's are great planes, just not want AC wants right now. I'm not sure that they have met the operation performance that AC wants for ultra-long haul. But the main reason for the Airbuses departure are its 4 engines, which AC is strongly against right now.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 14):
Those birds will find homes relatively easy, the same can be said for their A343 as well

I agree, I doubt it will be a problem finding homes for the A345's and A343X's. AC has a 2 A340-312,313 for which it might be harder to find homes. But regardless, Boeing has offered to buy them if AC can't find any one interested.

KrisYYZ
 
burnsie28
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 15):
I agree, I doubt it will be a problem finding homes for the A345's and A343X's.

I think the A345 will have a problem finding a home, more so then just AC's birds. If you look at it, Singapore is looking to get rid of the aircraft because they have to take out a lot of seats to get the range they want. Where the 777-200LR doesn't have those restriction. I guess only time will tell.
 
White
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:03 am

I have been watching the color schemes of Air Canada change for the past 40 years, and this recent one, toothpaste, is by far the worst. No class there at all. And how can an airline that has been in and out of bankruptcy protection for the past few years afford to paint new colors????

rm
 
krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting White (Reply 17):
And how can an airline that has been in and out of bankruptcy protection for the past few years afford to paint new colors????

The cost was marginal. The aircraft get repainted when they go for their heavy maintenance checks. It's not the paint or painting that cost money, rather the revenue lost for the hours that the plane is sitting in the hanger and not in the air.

KrisYYZ
 
milan320
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
Two Changes I would make to the AC livery:
1. Engine Cowlings would be pained red with the AC Maple Leaf Logo in white

Might actually be nice.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 11):
AC designed this colour scheme so it would look different under different conditions.

If that's the case, nice idea on the part of AC, however, couldn't they have decided against the toothpaste colour under some of those conditions.

The only thing I like about the new scheme is the tail. I think it would have been at least better (and cheaper) if they changed the tail to what it is now and left the fusalage white.

-Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
airbazar
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
If you look at it, Singapore is looking to get rid of the aircraft because they have to take out a lot of seats to get the range they want. Where the 777-200LR doesn't have those restriction. I guess only time will tell.

So, I guess I missed that order from SQ for the 772LR.
Either this is bait or you really don't have a clue  scratchchin 
 
skymileman
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
Singapore is looking to get rid of the aircraft because they have to take out a lot of seats to get the range they want.

What is the timeline for SQ phasing out the A345?
 
9252fly
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 11):
AC designed this colour scheme so it would look different under different conditions. It's suppose to be relating the changing times of AC. I've seen AC birds with the new c/s that look white, and ones that look very blue. I think AC could of done a better job on the scheme but it definitely echos AC new corporate image.

As for the aircraft that look white,it is attributed to the aircraft in question having a hybrid paint scheme,meaning that it has a decal on the tail,otherwise the aircraft has not been painted and will not appear in it's true colour scheme until the aircraft is due for a complete painting after a heavy check.

For those of you that dislike the "toothpaste" effect,I personally like it,especially on an overcast day. The previous livery was just plain old and needed something original,it's not about copying everyone else with NW silver or for that matter staying with boring old euro-white.

A comment on the thread topic. The three A346 as mentioned above,will never be delivered to AC. Part of the deal with Airbus during AC restructuring,was that they would take delivery of the two completed A345 that were sitting at an airfield in France for almost a year and Airbus would allow AC out of it's commitment to purchase the three A346 aircraft.

It will be interesting to watch the changes at AC over the next few years. I'm reasonably confident it will be a very different airline from the one that entered this decade with a takeover of CP and the restructuring that was required to save it and allow it to prosper in the future. As much as I've been critical of Robert Milton in the past,I must say he is a brilliant man and has executed his plans extremely well.
 
krisyyz
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 22):
As for the aircraft that look white,it is attributed to the aircraft in question having a hybrid paint scheme,meaning that it has a decal on the tail,otherwise the aircraft has not been painted and will not appear in it's true colour scheme until the aircraft is due for a complete painting after a heavy check.

I wasn't talking about the hybrid scheme, some of the b763 and A333 that have been fully painted look very light blue if not white in the sunlight. I believe that some of the repainted A333 where done with a even lighter shade of the metallic-blue paint than the A340, B767 and A32X's.

KrisYYZ
 
CF188A
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
I think the Boeing 772s, 773s and new 787s will look MUCH BETTER in AC Colors:

waiting for the day someone will not judge the color of a planes skin... but by the content of its character 

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):

I think the 773ER will be much nicer looking than any A346!

your obviously a Boeing fan and as i usually say in all these touchy Boeing / airbus topics, i think the fact that you being "American" has something to do with it. Bias opinions are EVERYWHERE on a.net . I love both airbus and Boeing for different reasons, not because one "looks" better than the other. I

think this is fair

Quoting Milan320 (Reply 8):
I don't think the ACs colour scheme actually gives much to any plane. Let alone the majestic A346.

agreed . I think the older scheme with the dark royal blue/green tail and the Canadian leaf on it, with the white body and red lettering, was simply a symbol and a statement. I miss it, and I thought it was classy.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 13):
Which are destined for the desert not too long from now (a340s).

you know... i think the 777s are all going to the desert as well with the 340 rival. I heard Boeing plans to sell their head corporation to Airbus, where they are going to begin the large assembly line of Concorde's whereby the engine will be as inefficient as possible to help contaminate the worlds air supply.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 14):
Is this some kind of a joke? Those birds will find homes relatively easy, the same can be said for their A343 as well. Many airlines still prefer Airbus widebody's over those offered by Boeing.

absolutely. But many people on here would rather support their super ego rather than .... broaden their horizons so to speak lol .

[Edited 2006-06-02 21:43:05]

[Edited 2006-06-02 21:44:09]

[Edited 2006-06-02 21:48:43]
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
ac7e7
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 24):
your obviously a Boeing fan and as i usually say in all these touchy Boeing / airbus topics, i think the fact that you being "American" has something to do with it. Bias opinions are EVERYWHERE on a.net . I love both airbus and Boeing for different reasons, not because one "looks" better than the other. I

Give me a break... Who cares if he is American or from anywhere else? Maybe he just likes Boeing planes more than Airbus.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 24):
you know... i think the 777s are all going to the desert as well with the 340 rival. I heard Boeing plans to sell their head corporation to Airbus, where they are going to begin the large assembly line of Concorde's whereby the engine will be as inefficient as possible to help contaminate the worlds air supply.

....and that's enough beer for you!
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 20):
Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
If you look at it, Singapore is looking to get rid of the aircraft because they have to take out a lot of seats to get the range they want. Where the 777-200LR doesn't have those restriction. I guess only time will tell.

So, I guess I missed that order from SQ for the 772LR.
Either this is bait or you really don't have a clue

Neither of the above. He simply said that SQ A345's don't have the expected range and that 772LR's do. Nowhere did he imply that SQ owned those 772LR's to which he referred.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 13):
NW's color scheme changes in the light as well.

And it looks really good, even on an old, ancient and obsolete DC-9!

Quoting CF188A (Reply 24):
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
I think the Boeing 772s, 773s and new 787s will look MUCH BETTER in AC Colors:

waiting for the day someone will not judge the color of a planes skin... but by the content of its character

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):

I think the 773ER will be much nicer looking than any A346!

your obviously a Boeing fan and as i usually say in all these touchy Boeing / airbus topics, i think the fact that you being "American" has something to do with it. Bias opinions are EVERYWHERE on a.net . I love both airbus and Boeing for different reasons, not because one "looks" better than the other. I
think this is fair

Your profile says you're a CDF from Ontario as I recall? My first impression was with a statement like that you're from Quebec! I would expect a little more North American loyalty from someone north of the 49th. AirBus makes some great a/c and has pushed Boeing to be even better which is now obviously the case. Competition can always be a good thing. Take my word for it, in this current wide-body time frame, there will be more AirBus planes parked in Victorville or Pinal 10-15 years from now.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
CF188A
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 27):
Your profile says you're a CDF from Ontario as I recall? My first impression was with a statement like that you're from Quebec! I would expect a little more North American loyalty from someone north of the 49th. Airbus makes some great a/c and has pushed Boeing to be even better which is now obviously the case. Competition can always be a good thing. Take my word for it, in this current wide-body time frame, there will be more AirBus planes parked in Victorville or Pinal 10-15 years from now.

My loyalties and respects to my country are totally ... and has nothing to do with my prefer-ability to a specific branch of aircraft. It was also quite wrong of you to compare such a thing in an open forum. On a second note.... If I am not mistaken Canada is part of the Commonwealth and it would make more sense ... if i were bias, to totally back up Airbus ? Yes I think so, but thank God I'm not a Canadair extremist , otherwise we would have lots of problems  Wink

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 25):
Give me a break... Who cares if he is American or from anywhere else? Maybe he just likes Boeing planes more than Airbus.

If only I wanted to put the effort into proving you dead wrong. How many airbus vs boeing wars have spawned... 10,000 more...500000? How many PRO Airbus statements in those feuds were stated by those from the United States .... ? Please, enlighten me  Smile There is of course nothing wrong with liking a branch given it is what contributes to your economy. But why not be open minded .... to some extent anyway. You absolutely correct , but you should give me the same acknowledgements, because many do state their bias , effortless opinions because "Boeing" or "Airbus" is made in their country. That is just somthing that drives me nuts!
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 28):
On a second note.... If I am not mistaken Canada is part of the Commonwealth and it would make more sense ... if i were bias, to totally back up Airbus ?

Wouldn't really make much sense at all. Airbus is a consortium of a few European countries, only one of which, the UK, is a Commonwealth nation. It'd be more sensible to say that since both Canada and Russia are very large northern countries that excel at ice hockey, you prefer Tupolev or Iluyshin.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 29):
It'd be more sensible to say that since both Canada and Russia are very large northern countries that excel at ice hockey, you prefer Tupolev or Iluyshin.

whatever floats your boat
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
JAL
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:21 am

The new Boiengs would indeed look amazing in AC livery!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 5):
So just a question... does AC still have those orders on the books or where they canned in the bankrupsy courts?



Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 6):
IIRC, the orders were deferred until 2010 with no cancellation penalty. I think they will still be on the books until AC actually takes possession of its first few 773ERs - more of just a contingency than anything else. It isn't costing them anything to keep this option open, even though the chance of them exercising it is very close to zero.

Airbus can be very unclear with its orders......orders that have been or have effectively been cancelled can remain on their books for an unspecified period of time. Its rare that Airbus actually acknowledges a cancellation - Boeing tends to be more straightforward with orders, cancellations, etc.

AC will not be taking any further A330 or A340 deliveries, so simple is it.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 14):

Is this some kind of a joke? Those birds will find homes relatively easy, the same can be said for their A343 as well. Many airlines still prefer Airbus widebody's over those offered by Boeing.

Regards,
Wings

Concerning the AC A340s, it depends which model we are talking about......the A343s should not be a big problem to place in the second hand market, although it may be difficult. It took Boeing a rather long time to place the ex-SQ A343s and if it were not for EK and their rather ambitious expansion plans, I am not convinced Boeing would have ever placed the A343s. A lot depends on timing - AC (or the lessors of the subject aircraft) have to hope that they can place the ex-AC A343s before Virgin, LH, AF or other large A343 operators begin phasing out the type as well, putting a lot of aircraft into the second hand market. If only the freighter conversion was an option?!

The A345s are going to be difficult to place......I dont want to get into a 772LR vs A345 thing or an A vs B thing, but only a small number of A345s were built so far, not many more are on order, and only a small amount of airlines fly the type (it reminds me of the 747SP in a way).....these factors make an aircraft (regarless of whether it comes from Seattle or Toulouse) hard to place on the second hand market. If EK or another A345 operator shows interest, great, otherwise its gonna take a while......I would not be suprised to see A345s being converted to biz jets, the longrange A345 would make the ultimate business jet due to its long range.
 
11Bravo
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 28):
My loyalties and respects to my country are totally ... and has nothing to do with my prefer-ability to a specific branch of aircraft. It was also quite wrong of you to compare such a thing in an open forum.

...so your loyalties are unrelated to your nationality, and you're a little bit tweaked that someone would suggest otherwise? Okay that's good.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 24):
your obviously a Boeing fan and as i usually say in all these touchy Boeing / airbus topics, i think the fact that you being "American" has something to do with it.

...but here you seem to be suggesting that another user's allegiance is strictly a function of nationality. In fact, your tone suggests you feel that's self-evident and obvious. Do you know this person?

Perhaps you should consider applying the same standard of assumption that you expect for yourself to others.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
airbazar
Posts: 6867
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 26):

Neither of the above. He simply said that SQ A345's don't have the expected range and that 772LR's do. Nowhere did he imply that SQ owned those 772LR's to which he referred.

I was being sarcastic, because of his comment that SQ "is looking to get rid of the aircraft" which is closer to being a lie than a rumor. SQ has had more than enough time to order the 772 if they really were interested as some people here seem to think. It's not like they don't already operate the 777 family of aircraft. A switch to the 772LR would be the easiest thing for them to do if the aircraft was really that much better for them.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
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RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 34):

I was being sarcastic, because of his comment that SQ "is looking to get rid of the aircraft" which is closer to being a lie than a rumor. SQ has had more than enough time to order the 772 if they really were interested as some people here seem to think. It's not like they don't already operate the 777 family of aircraft. A switch to the 772LR would be the easiest thing for them to do if the aircraft was really that much better for them.

There is a huge financial aspect to the SQ and the A345 and the 772LR discussion that many seem to forget about.....not only are the 772LRs very expensive aircraft to acquire, the bigger issue is what would SQ do with its five A345s - simply parking them in the desert is not an answer, the A345s are still rather new. Is any airline looking to acquire A345s on the second hand market, and at what price?

To use your words, a switch from the A345 to the 772LR would be the easiest thing in the world for SQ........but what is the cost????

SQ will stay with the A345s for a few more years and then move along.....likely to the 772LR, lets not forget how quickly SQ renews its fleet.
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 33):
so your loyalties are unrelated to your nationality, and you're a little bit tweaked that someone would suggest otherwise? Okay that's good.

Yes Sir.... Being in the Armed Forces of my home nation requires you to swear and oath to your flag. Yes indeed, I am loyal and have been in my career. For someone to judge me in a post because I simply play devils advocate and like all types and brands of certain aircraft.... is how do we say odd? Not to mention refer to me a disloyal ... yes that is very insulting that someone would accuse me of such a thing. People dont take that to lightly.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 33):
In fact, your tone suggests you feel that's self-evident and obvious.

you mean the letters which make up words that send out invisible sound waves that you can decipher?

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 33):
Do you know this person?

do you know me? oh and maby " you should consider applying the same standard of assumption that you expect for yourself to others"

In my years being on this site (browsing) i have always seen the balance in .... Boeing enthusiasts, and airbus enthusiasts. I am a firm believer that there are many, and will always be MANY that choose a brand and say the utmost ridiculous things to bash another because they like lets say... "Airbus" for a specific reason. These posts were not personal, until I was told that i was disloyal to my flag. I do find that insulting but hey what can you do, you know me from 3 posts:P Why cant people have an Airbus / Boeing topic, and compare to the two without someone actually thinking one is far more superior to the other. In all fairness airlines purchase specific planes for specific reasons, so how can someone state BOEING , is better than AIRBUS and the other way around. It doesn't make sense to me. All should be able to have a decent conversation. My original post was nothing personal and I apologise to those who were insulted.
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
RIHNOSAUR
Posts: 336
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:05 pm

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 27):
Your profile says you're a CDF from Ontario as I recall? My first impression was with a statement like that you're from Quebec! I would expect a little more North American loyalty from someone north of the 49th.

Sorry to jump in..but this is the kind of statement that just demonstrates inability towards objectivity,....I mean why do you have to have "loyalties...."If you like something better you like it better....

to be honest in my book, it is very admirable when people set aside their "loyalties" and silly patriotism and recognize that not only that which is "yours" could well be better...

Quoting CF188A (Reply 28):
If only I wanted to put the effort into proving you dead wrong. How many airbus vs boeing wars have spawned... 10,000 more...500000? How many PRO Airbus statements in those feuds were stated by those from the United States.... ? Please, enlighten me Smile There is of course nothing wrong with liking a branch given it is what contributes to your economy. But why not be open minded .... to some extent anyway.

excellent reply.....I have to agree with your point of view.

cheers  bigthumbsup 
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
fly_yhm
Posts: 1647
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:07 am

Out of the 777-200s and 300s which will we see in YYZ? will we see a bit of both?
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
9252fly
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting Fly_yhm (Reply 38):
Out of the 777-200s and 300s which will we see in YYZ? will we see a bit of both?

From what I recall reading,all the announced delivery dates mentioned(7)are for B773 and they will be based out of YYZ. I wouldn't be surprised if all the follow-on future deliveries of B777 end up being the 300 version.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:21 pm

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 29):
irbus is a consortium of a few European countries, only one of which, the UK, is a Commonwealth nation.

May I welcome you to the third millenium? Airbus is no longer a consortium, and it's been that way for quite a while now.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 12):
AirBus wide-bodies

It's Airbus, not AirBus.


Why Airbus still has these orders on the book is probably a matter of contractual agreements between Air Canada and them that all of us have no insight into. Maybe they're still on there for Air Canada to retain whatever residual value still remains in those orders, perhaps some down payments, in case they decide to stock up on their A320 series aircraft, or perhaps they have an agreement on spares, or maybe just on a couple of excellent and expensive dinners in restaurants in Toulouse...  Wink

Who knows... the one thing we do know is that we will not be seeing these planes flying for Air Canada.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 40):
Quoting Threepoint (Reply 29):
irbus is a consortium of a few European countries, only one of which, the UK, is a Commonwealth nation.

May I welcome you to the third millenium? Airbus is no longer a consortium, and it's been that way for quite a while now.

well said ..... its absolutely true Smile
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 40):
May I welcome you to the third millenium? Airbus is no longer a consortium

Thanks for the sarcasm Frank...commiting the carnal sin of misprinting the exact corporate-structure descriptor of a multinational firm should be ridiculed and belittled as you have done. I appreciate you splitting the hair two ways.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 40):
It's Airbus, not AirBus

Make that splitting the hair four ways.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 40):
Why Airbus still has these orders on the book is probably a matter of contractual agreements between Air Canada and them that all of us have no insight into

Actually, there are people on this forum (not me) who have exceedingly insightful knowledge of most of the manufacturers and airlines we care to mention. That would include people who likely read AC contracts as a job function.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
ac7e7
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 28):
If I am not mistaken Canada is part of the Commonwealth and it would make more sense

Big deal.... and what does being a member give us? Absolutely nothing!

Can anybody here sponsor me? I want US citizenship.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 28):
Yes I think so, but thank God I'm not a Canadair extremist , otherwise we would have lots of problems

LOL! Actually, I live in Montreal.... and I hate Bombardier. I think they have sucked the corporate welfare nipple for too long. If they can't make a competitive product on their own, then get out. Why should my tax dollars go to supporting an over-paid, militant unionized employee when the work can be done cheaper somewhere else without tax dollars from me. Canada has not even come close to seeing the money returned that it has given to Bombardier - either from loan repayments, loan guarantees to foreign airlines, or through workers' taxes.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 28):
But why not be open minded .... to some extent anyway. You absolutely correct , but you should give me the same acknowledgements, because many do state their bias , effortless opinions because "Boeing" or "Airbus" is made in their country. That is just somthing that drives me nuts!

There are biases on both sides, Agreed. But there have been educated debates between the two sides here based on aircraft specs. And just looking at where customers are going is a good way to determine the better product. Yes there are other factors, such as price, but airlines are more interested in efficiency these days. AC decided on the 777 because it is more efficient then the A340. Itcannot be more simple then that. AC went with the 787, because the A350 so far is a piece of crap, and because AC had confidence in Boeing's new aircraft thanks to the company's products traditionally exceeding stated specifications. Airbus has had problems meeting its stated specs on a number of its aircraft.

Don't get me wrong, Airbus do make quality planes. I really like their narrowbody products as well as the A330. But sometime, companies make the wrong choices and suffer for it. Airbus believed that the A340 would continue to gain orders, but did not foercast the rise in oil prices, the inefficiency of 4 engines to 2, and Boeing's investment in newer 777 derivatives. They made the mistake again with the A350, believeing that an A330 with new engines could compete against the 787. Many here yelled about how it could compete, but in the end, Airbus saw the writing on the wall and is now designing a whole new aircraft.

Boeing did the same mistake as Airbus when it came to the 737. They believed that the -300/400/500 could compete for orders against the new A32X family. They thought wrong, and suffered for it. Though they developed the successful NG family, they still lost a large number of orders to Airbus in the meantime.
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 43):
Big deal.... and what does being a member give us? Absolutely nothing!

I believe that was in reference to being a Canadian. I think my country has given me tons of opportunity which is why i take such good advantage of it. With an outlook like that mentioned above, I think the country is delighted it doesn't support someone like yourself

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 43):
Can anybody here sponsor me? I want US citizenship.

I dont think the United States would want to take responsibility over a citizen which verbally attacks their home nation given the opportunities they already have

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 43):
LOL! Actually, I live in Montreal.... and I hate Bombardier. I think they have sucked the corporate welfare nipple for too long. If they can't make a competitive product on their own, then get out. Why should my tax dollars go to supporting an over-paid, militant unionized employee when the work can be done cheaper somewhere else without tax dollars from me. Canada has not even come close to seeing the money returned that it has given to Bombardier - either from loan repayments, loan guarantees to foreign airlines, or through workers' taxes.

Your telling me the CRJ market was not competitive product.... yet alone the DASH 8..now the new Q400? .. give me a break. Do some research and learn your facts. Bombardier is an exceptional company, and a very SMART company. They always seem to pull something good out of their sleeve. Sure they might not have funds like Boeing or Airbus, but they sure as hell know what to design and what not to design. The new Q400 will compete perfectly with Embraer and the smaller Airbus's especially in airports where terrain is quite rugged. Have you had the pleasure of flying on the Q400? It outranks the EMB series in my opinion because :

1) comfortable as hell
2) QUIET
3) affordable for virtually ANY AIRLINE!

There is NO other prop on the market right now that would perform better given the family / mission.
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 13):
Which are destined for the desert not too long from now.

I doubt they end up in the desert, there are numerous expanding airlines which could find the planes useful. Just because the B777LR is ahead it doesn't mean the A345 is a fuel waster.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 27):
Take my word for it, in this current wide-body time frame, there will be more AirBus planes parked in Victorville or Pinal 10-15 years from now.

True, certain A340s will be close to 30 years in 2021 and may be retired. But don't expect masses of A330s or A340s move to the desert just because the B787 takes off.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
ac7e7
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting CF188A (Reply 44):
With an outlook like that mentioned above, I think the country is delighted it doesn't support someone like yourself

You still haven't answered my question. What does being a member of the commonwealth do for Canada? Australia almost got rid of the Queen as head of state in a referendum a couple of years ago.... would it have made the people there any less Australian if they had voted in favour of adopting a republic-type government? I think not.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 44):
I dont think the United States would want to take responsibility over a citizen which verbally attacks their home nation given the opportunities they already have

I can complain about my own country all I want. I have the freedom to do so. Americans have every right to complain if they don't like the direction their country is going. Canadians don't get that right either? Why are you so offended that I would like US citizenship? Why does this bug you so much?

Quoting CF188A (Reply 44):
Your telling me the CRJ market was not competitive product.... yet alone the DASH 8..now the new Q400? .. give me a break. Do some research and learn your facts. Bombardier is an exceptional company, and a very SMART company.

Stop getting all defensive. The CRJ has not been a success in terms of cost to Canadians. We are now on the hook for millions because of NW and others in chap 11. Bombardier is not getting anymore orders for the CRJ, which means we as taxpayers are going to have to fund their next stupid project. I have a great idea.... check this out..... don't get to upset now..... how about.......wait for it...... how about Bombardier funding their own projects?! Embraer did it recently with the E-Jets.... no reason why Bombardier can't do it. If the market believes in Bombardier, they will get the funding necessary.

You know what else? They actually can afford to fund their own products - but they would have to open a factory in another country. So what do we do..... give more money to the Beaudoin family so they keep a few jobs in separatist Quebec? You are correct - they are a smart company - only because they continue to get away with handouts from taxpayers and not being accountable for it.

If Bombardier cannot make a product that can be developed and sold by themselves, then forget it. Now the government is going to be on the hook for millions in leases that NW and others cannot pay. What a scam. Bombardier is by no means exceptional. If work cannot be done in Canada efficiently or cheaply anymore, stop giving them money and let them go.

[Edited 2006-06-04 06:30:06]

[Edited 2006-06-04 06:33:09]
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:49 pm

the message here was sent directly to Captain Know-it-all. Boeing1 is absolutely right given the fact this topic is hijacked and I am not going to contribute to it Smile I guess Boeing1s lucky charms really shed light today huh  Smile

. About that Air Canada scheme, why have the bodies of some A320s not yet been painted weren't they suppose to in early February?

[Edited 2006-06-04 17:14:35]
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
boeingguy1
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:31 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 36):

Do us all a favor- no one gives a maple leaf about your theories- after all, Im from Ireland, in the EU, closely associated with Airbus, and prefer Boeing aircraft... what say you? Nothing? Good. Now, quit the crap and stop hijacking this topic.

Now, as for that AC colour scheme... lord save us.
Gatwick South! Id rather crash in Brighton!
 
ac7e7
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:27 am

RE: Air Canada Airbus Orders

Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
I said it would make more sense if i was BIAS.... to go pro Airbus because of the commonwealth. On a side note

That's a first. Not to burst your bubble, but we are much closer to the US then we are to Britain, despite our history.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS! NOT EVERYBODY CAN BE HAPPY!

Isn't that what I said?

Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
All your doing is proving how self indulgent, ignorant, ungrateful, and how dimwitted you really are

Is this an insult? I did not insult you in my posts. I may not agree with your opinions, however I did not insult you.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
Well, I am sure Canada's reaction would be " To hell with you" , and send you on the next available flight (which I hope to God is on a BOMBARDIER ).

LOL! Good one! No, really, that made me laugh!  

Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
Health care opens up an "entire" new topic

Don't get me started on a system that no longer works.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
That's how the world works unfortunately, so get used to it. I am , I will say, I agree along side with you that they should be funded by the Government "IF"they have the capability to produce their own aircraft. This however, I am not sure of, and I would suggest you begin a rally and bring it to Ottawas attention.

Agreed, however Ottawa is already well aware of the corporate welfare it provides to companies such as Bombardier, and the complaints about it. Demonstrations don't work anymore.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
As times change the planes change Get used to it... Why do you think they are not getting anymore orders for the CRJ( 200) ... (200) ... last time I checked the CRJ7 was definitely .. slowly but surely becoming a success. Why buy the 200 when you can run a 700 with similar costs? Maybe THAT is the reason for no more orders? Or perhaps the new E Jets, )170 most likely, the closest match which is why they have been ordered and had nothing but +ve comments. Good for Embraer! But many airlines have still decided over the CRJ7 and received it, given the possibilities of E jets.

Again, I am not debating the CRJ's success in the marketplace. Obviously it was a good selling product. What I am debating is Canada not having been able to recoup the money it lent to Bombardier to develop this plane. I have no problem with government lending money to companies to develop a product. They must however repay that money, just like anyone else. This is like me going to the bank, getting a mortgage, paying 25% of the mortgage back, then deciding that I no longer want to pay for the house, and sell it. Then I pocket the money by distributing it to my family rather then using it to pay back the bank.
Then I decide I want to buy another bigger house. In the private sector, my first house have already been repossessed. If the private sector worked like government, they would not only forgive my first mortgage, they would open up another larger mortgage with no interest knowing full well that they will only see 25% repayment. - but they give it to me anyway because they don't want me to leave the neighbourhood.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
I'm not going to even going to waste my energy, all I am going to say is if they are not a smart company, then why... just why is one of their planes located in virtually every single country on the planet earth, and why here in North America was the CRJ purchased by almost every major airline?



Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
Well now because Bombardier/ Dehavilland planes are crap; that they want their citizens to fly in them so they crash and decrease population...productive annhilation!.. OF COURSE, i should have thought of that before I began typing! Also doesnt Dehavilland/ Bombardier hold the record for designing a plane with very little design fault? Most crashes involving Dehavilland/Bombardier aircraft were pilot error if im not mistaken?

Again, as I said above, I am not debating the product in the marketplace.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 47):
I would rather employ, and provide people with opportunities here, then send our factories and totally contribute to the inhumane ways of life in China, set down by their Governments. Maybe we should send you on an exchange there for 3 years and you must follow that life style ? I think you could be craving.... just craving to get back here, and I can tell you one thing... you would sure as hell not complain because a little bit of your tax dollar is going to an Aircraft manufacturer , which in the end provides jobs and more money for the country.

Liittle bit here, a little bit there....where do you draw the line? There is a great deal of debate to whether subs actually keep and maintain jobs. And I guarantee you, the money the workers are paying in taxes do not even come close to repaying the money it lent out.



I know you are proud of Bombardier. But that company has to learn how to develop and market a product using their own money, or raising it on the market. We as Canadians cannot continue to fund a company like Bombardier forever. You are correct that Bombardier management is smart - smart enough to know that Canadians like you are willing to pay more and more in order to keep workers in Canada. How much is too much in your opinion?


------------------------------------

As for Air Canada - does anyone know if they will be going forward with the installation of winglets on their 767-300 fleet? I was looking forward to snapping a few pics!

As for AC's new paint scheme - I like it yet I think it is missing something. Maybe a cheatline somewhere? I think they should add those maple leaves that Embraer has added to their 100th E-Jet that was delievered to Air Canada. That looked great!

[Edited 2006-06-04 17:42:43]

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