sw733
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No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:19 pm

I was doing some searching, and realized Air France does not serve anywhere in Australia or New Zealand. Has AF ever served places such as Sydney or Auckland, or would they ever? Seems to me like they could make a route to Sydney from Paris via somewhere in Asia quite successful. Thanks in advance!
 
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EK413
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:41 pm

Air France codeshare the flights to Australia on Qantas metal just like Qantas codeshare services to France on Air France metal....
Qantas would like to return to France (CDG) with its own metal but had no choice but to pulled out of the market course it wasnt given rights to fly daily services  Sad
I dont see Air France ever operating to Australia unless its a special charter flight which we have had in the past....
I'll post a few examples.....

During the Rugby World Cup Big grin

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Photo © Micheil Keegan
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Photo © Norbert Genci


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Photo © Glenn Stewart
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Photo © Glenn Stewart


Replacing Aircalin services Big grin

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Photo © Sam Chui
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Photo © Micheil Keegan


Concorde Around the World Service Big grin

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Photo © Craig Murray
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Photo © Brian Wilkes


Boeing demonstration flights for Qantas Big grin

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Photo © Gabriel Savit
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Photo © Scott Lindsell


When Air France served Australia with scheduled services (I believe) Big grin

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Photo © Morris Biondi


During the 2000 Olympics Big grin

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Photo © Brian Wilkes


& during diversions Big grin

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Photo © Micheil Keegan



I hope this helps.....  Smile
EK413
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767er
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:44 pm

Yes AF did serve SYD albiet briefly when UTA went down the toilet....not sure the dates, etc.....in the 90s i am sure. AOM also flew to SYD.
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eta unknown
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:55 pm

AF took over the UTA 747 route (twice weekly):
CDG-SIN-CGK-SYD-NOU-CGK-SIN-CDG
CDG-SIN-CGK-NOU-SYD-CGK-SIN-CDG
Service did not last long as even UTA didn't carry many SYD originating passengers (flights were usually full with NOU originators).

There was also a once weekly UTA DC10 flight:
SYD-NOU-AKL-PPT. The aircraft was based in NOU (cabin crew based in NOU, pilots in PPT) and operated in an all economy configuration- the aircraft was switched out every year with the CDG based fleet. NOU-NRT fligths also operated.

AOM then picked up the Paris route with DC10's, then A330's:
ORY-CMB-SYD-NOU- the route was then to change to CDG-LAX-NOU-SYD, but maybe only 1 or 2 flights operated before AOM ceased operations.
 
flyjetstar
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:11 pm

What happened to UTA?
Did it go under or merge with AF?
 
Avatordon
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:17 pm

It was acquired by AF in the 90s. Never flew it, but understand it was a great company, very good service.
 
BestWestern
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:39 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
during diversions

During Diversions... how would AF divert to Australia?
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VHVXB
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 6):
During Diversions... how would AF divert to Australia?

Read the caption in the pic. This a/c was diverted from Noumea which is in New Caledonia. Noumea is 2 to 3 hour flight from SYD thats why it was diverted to SYD.
 
swissgabe
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 3):
AOM then picked up the Paris route with DC10's, then A330's:
ORY-CMB-SYD-NOU

Was the return NOU-SYD-CMB-ORY or NOU-CMB-ORY? I remember having seen an old sign near CMB airport where they where (still) advertising the AOM flights not only to Paris but also to Sydney and Noumea.
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ZK-NBT
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:27 pm

AF flew to AKL briefly with a 744 which replaced the UTA service, this was around 1993.

An AF744 diverted to AKL in 2000 from NOU, stayed here for a few days during some strike in NOU.
 
FlySSC
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting SW733 (Thread starter):
Has AF ever served places such as Sydney or Auckland

As mentionned in several posts above, UTA did serve AKL, SYD and MEL.
After merging with AF, flights to SYD were stopped in 1993, when AF started its reorganization and cut several unprofitable routes.

Quoting Swissgabe (Reply 8):
Was the return NOU-SYD-CMB-ORY or NOU-CMB-ORY?

AOM flight was ORY-CMB-SYD-NOU / NOU-SYD-CMB-ORY

Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
Qantas would like to return to France (CDG) with its own metal but had no choice but to pulled out of the market course it wasnt given rights to fly daily services

That was not a question of frequencies or traffic rights. QANTAS flights to CDG (just like AF's or AOM ones) were never profitable.
The line was closed and reopened regularly in the past 20 years.
The fact is that LHR attracts most of the market Europe / Australia and with the competition of all the Asian and Middle Eastern carriers, there is already far too much offer on that route.
QF had poor results in Premium Classes, and a very low yield even with high loads in Y, and their flight, routing CDG-FRA-SIN-SYD was not attractive for Business/First Class passengers.

Today, the Codeshare AF/QF via SIN work well. Very well for both airlines, according to the last results. This agreement works so well that it should be extended to more cities in Australia, "Flying Blue" FF will be allowed to use their miles on domestic QF flights, and AF & QF are in talks to open new codeshare flights via China.
 
planemanofnz
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:40 pm

I know I am dreaming but I would love to see AF in NZ. After all, the french *nearly* colonised New Zealand from Akaroa. Imagine if the final documents for colonisation of the South Island got here 4 months before they really did. Could we have seen AF flying into an Akaroa International Airport, lol. I guess we'll never know.
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 3):
AF took over the UTA 747 route (twice weekly):
CDG-SIN-CGK-SYD-NOU-CGK-SIN-CDG
CDG-SIN-CGK-NOU-SYD-CGK-SIN-CDG
Service did not last long as even UTA didn't carry many SYD originating passengers (flights were usually full with NOU originators).

UTA never had traffic rights between SIN and SYD. Only SIN-NOU. But it was okay to carry passengers PAR-SIN/SYD/NOU.
 
Gemuser
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:21 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
That was not a question of frequencies or traffic rights.

Yes it was, according to the QF press release!

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
QF had poor results in Premium Classes, and a very low yield even with high loads in Y, and their flight, routing CDG-FRA-SIN-SYD was not attractive for Business/First Class passengers

It had poor Premium Classes loads because it could not operate daily. The routing changed many time over the years. It did NOT operate via FRA for years before services was withdrawn.

QF have said if the mooted Oz/EU open skys goes ahead it will be back at CDG asap.

Gemuser
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DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:23 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
Air France codeshare the flights to Australia on Qantas metal just like Qantas codeshare services to France on Air France metal....
Qantas would like to return to France (CDG) with its own metal but had no choice but to pulled out of the market course it wasnt given rights to fly daily services

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that they each code share on each other to Australia and France but AF doesn't fly to Australia and QF doesn't fly to France? That's a neat trick. Did I misunderstand your explanation?

Cheers
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:15 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 14):

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that they each code share on each other to Australia and France but AF doesn't fly to Australia and QF doesn't fly to France? That's a neat trick. Did I misunderstand your explanation?

That is indeed correct! NZ and LH do the same NZ codeshare with LH from AKL to FRA via LAX, SFO, HKG and SIN and vv, LH also codeshare on TG services to AKL via BKK.

I'm sure there must be others aswell.
 
jupiter2
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:29 pm

For the AF/QF codeshare, QF do the flights from Australia to SIN and AF do the SIN/CDG sector. It is by most accounts a very succesful operation for both carriers and as has been mentioned they are looking for other routes to co-operate on. My cash would be via HKG.

The reference to AF diversions to SYD from NOU is not entirely correct. The aircraft were flown to SYD to escape from cyclones that were heading for Noumea, AF chose SYD, I believe the last time something similar happened Air Calin chose to go to BNE.

RL
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:07 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 9):
AF flew to AKL briefly with a 744 which replaced the UTA service

and the dc10 also. I have seen an AF DC10 at AKL.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
VHVXB
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:18 pm

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 16):
It is by most accounts a very succesful operation for both carriers and as has been mentioned they are looking for other routes to co-operate on. My cash would be via HKG

Intresting stuff here jupiter. But wouldn't it be better for QF to operate with CX rather than AF as QF and CX are Oneworld Allinace members

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 16):
The reference to AF diversions to SYD from NOU is not entirely correct. The aircraft were flown to SYD to escape from cyclones that were heading for Noumea, AF chose SYD, I believe the last time something similar happened Air Calin chose to go to BNE

Thanks for clarifying that jupiter i just posted what i thought was correct according to the caption in those pics
 
IAD380
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:19 am

Would new, more efficient, long-haul aircraft, such as the 787 or the A350 make it profitable for both AF and QF to fly directly between CDG and SYD or MEL? Also, could the 787 or A350 make nonstop, round-trip flights between CDG and SYD or MEL?
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10):
That was not a question of frequencies or traffic rights. QANTAS flights to CDG (just like AF's or AOM ones) were never profitable.

Incorrect, it was directly due to the fact that QF wanted to increase from 3 x weekly to daily and were denied by the French Government.

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 18):
Intresting stuff here jupiter. But wouldn't it be better for QF to operate with CX rather than AF as QF and CX are Oneworld Allinace members

Due to QF having a major hub in SIN, it makes sense to transfer them to Air France. That way, it's a one stop service to CDG.

I don't believe CX flies nonstop from SIN-CDG.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
FlySSC
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 20):
Incorrect, it was directly due to the fact that QF wanted to increase from 3 x weekly to daily and were denied by the French Government.



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):
Yes it was, according to the QF press release!

According to "QF press release" ... you said it !  Wink
 
Gemuser
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):
According to "QF press release" ... you said it !

???????

Gemuser
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ClassicLover
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):
According to "QF press release" ... you said it !

http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn.../details?ArticleID=2004/jun04/3101

The quote from the above QF press release is -

"Qantas is restricted to operating only three flights to Paris a week under the bilateral agreement between Australia and France," Mr Borghetti said.

"This limited schedule has made it difficult to achieve profitability on the route and the losses we are incurring are simply not sustainable."

... and there we have it.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
FlySSC
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 23):
"Qantas is restricted to operating only three flights to Paris a week under the bilateral agreement between Australia and France," Mr Borghetti said.

"This limited schedule has made it difficult to achieve profitability on the route and the losses we are incurring are simply not sustainable."

When loads and demand on a 3 x Weekly frequencies are too low to make the route profitable, how could a Daily flight make it ?
 
parisien
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:19 am

So, does anyone know the then frequency of the UTA flights to Melbourne ? And route ? only one person so far evoked the MEL flights (and many the SYD flights) of UTA.
I know that UTA 744 used to go to MEL.

I am surprised to learn that QF could not get the daily frequency they wanted...was that the case for AF when it flew to SYD ? Though AF did have the right to transport pax from Australia to Asia....
 
jupiter2
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:32 am

The MEL flights for UTA were add ons to a SYD service. I am not positive but I believe that UTA may have gone to a 3rd frequency which routed CDG/SIN/CGK/SYD/MEL, on Saturdays through SYD and MEL. The other flights to SYD (2) continued to NOU.

RL
 
Gemuser
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 24):
When loads and demand on a 3 x Weekly frequencies are too low to make the route profitable, how could a Daily flight make it ?

Well according to people on here and elsewhere, some of whom should know, you only really attract a worthwhile volume of preimum pax when you offer daily service.

So it is said!

Gemuser
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VHVXB
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 20):
Due to QF having a major hub in SIN, it makes sense to transfer them to Air France. That way, it's a one stop service to CDG.

This makes sense as they currently doing. What I was trying to say the option of having codeshare flights out of HKG to CDG with CX, would it make more sense than what they currently doing now??

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 20):
I don't believe CX flies nonstop from SIN-CDG

only from HKG
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:28 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 24):
When loads and demand on a 3 x Weekly frequencies are too low to make the route profitable, how could a Daily flight make it ?

Premium passengers. QF almost always begin a destination with 3 x weekly to test the waters and then go daily if the test is working out. This has been done a lot in the past two years.

Paris was working fine and QF wanted to go daily and they weren't permitted to. It is a shame, but the codeshare is working fine anyway, and we got SFO instead  Smile

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 28):
What I was trying to say the option of having codeshare flights out of HKG to CDG with CX, would it make more sense than what they currently doing now??

Yeah, what I meant to say was that QF fly to SIN far more often than they fly to HKG, meaning the pax throughput at SIN is better than HKG. Therefore, it makes more sense to connect with AF.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
VHVXB
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 29):
Yeah, what I meant to say was that QF fly to SIN far more often than they fly to HKG, meaning the pax throughput at SIN is better than HKG. Therefore, it makes more sense to connect with AF

Thanks for clearing that up Classic. I have a clear understanding of what your saying
 
FlySSC
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 27):
Well according to people on here and elsewhere, some of whom should know, you only really attract a worthwhile volume of preimum pax when you offer daily service

This is true on short and medium range flights (several frequencies with smaller planes are better than limited frequencies with a bigger aircraft). This theory is also valid for long-haul flights on routes with a high volume of traffic.
This is not the case on the looong France - Australia route, especially with LHR, 350 km far from CDG, attracting most of the traffic Europe-Australia.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 29):
Paris was working fine and QF wanted to go daily and they weren't permitted to

Again, this was a sort of excuse for QF. ("not my fault !")
"Paris" was not working fine for QF, and has never been working fine despite the several attempt on the route.

I think the present codeshare AF/QF situation is much more logical (and profitable) for both AF and QF.

Quoting Parisien (Reply 25):
So, does anyone know the then frequency of the UTA flights to Melbourne ? And route ? only one person so far evoked the MEL flights (and many the SYD flights) of UTA

MEL was added to UTA's network in August 1991, with a weekly frequency.
 
Gemuser
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RE: No AF To Australia?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 31):
This is not the case on the looong France - Australia route, especially with LHR, 350 km far from CDG, attracting most of the traffic Europe-Australia.

Source?

I see no reason for it to be less true on long haul. Business customers still want to go on the day they want to go and will connect if necessary rather than go on a different day.

I hardly think it can be said LHR attracts "most" of the Australia - EUROPE traffic. The vast majority of the Oz-UK traffic of course, but for all of Europe? I strongly doubt it. MOST Oz-Europe traffic moves via Asian/Middle East carriers, via their hubs. LHR is a terriable hub for Oz-Europe traffic.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 31):
Again, this was a sort of excuse for QF. ("not my fault !")
"Paris" was not working fine for QF, and has never been working fine despite the several attempt on the route.

Again any source?

While QF are certainly NOT pargons of virtiue, out right deception in a press release, as you imply, is a very serious breach of the Oz securites code and seems unlikley over such a trival matter.

Gemuser
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