KLMyank
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KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:34 am

According to the internal KLM magazine, the first 747 will be in service this august with the new Business class seats and AVOD installed, then 1-2 a month to follow. No mention of economy. Does anyone in the know have any more info or the schema for the MD11?
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting KLMyank (Thread starter):
No mention of economy

Considering the considerable gap that has opened up between the new AF Y class (e.g. B773) and the corresponding KL product, I think they ought to act decisively unless the want to be relegated to the minor leagues.
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 1):
Considering the considerable gap that has opened up between the new AF Y class (e.g. B773) and the corresponding KL product, I think they ought to act decisively unless the want to be relegated to the minor leagues.

True, it's very attractive to fly AF on long-haul if you're not on KL's A330's or 777's; the fares are the same, you end up paying only the additional airport tax for CDG.
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 2):
paying only the additional airport tax for CDG

Well AMS is not exactly a discount airport when it comes to taxes either, but since the airport has invested massively in recent years and is now - at least IMHO - among the most passenger friendly large European hubs - I consider these charges to be more or less justified.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting KLMyank (Thread starter):
According to the internal KLM magazine, the first 747 will be in service this august with the new Business class seats and AVOD installed, then 1-2 a month to follow.

Is this both full pax birds and combis?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
KLMyank
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:14 am

Yeah I imagine so...although we dont have many max pax birds. The article simply states 744 fleet. THey are all run by the same unit (744, 74E and 74Y) so I can't imagine doing one without the other (except the 74Y of course!!!)
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:07 pm

The MD11 fleet is expected to start going in for the retrofit soon as well. The MD11 schedule for June-October is designed to be operated by just 9 airframes including spare capacity, so one can be sent for retrofit. During this upgrade, the cabin layout of the MD11 is to be changed, reducing the C-class cabin to just 24 seats (four rows of 6, no more middle seats) and increasing the Y-class section, even more firmly establishing the MD11 as KLM's holiday plane.

To the best of my knowledge, the seat configuration of the B744/B74E will remain identical. The cabin retrofit program should allay the persistent rumors on this board that KLM will withdraw its 5-stong B744 fleet in favor of the recently ordered 4 B773ER airframes. The B77Ws are upgrades from the planned B772ERs and are set to join the KLM fleet to accomodate further longhaul growth. The remaining B772ER and A332s to be delivered, will allow KLM to phase out the remaining 5 B763ERs.
 
BA787
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:06 pm

My neighbour recently travelled on KLM MD-11 to LIMA from AMS ansd declared the service and plane awful Is KLM that bad or was she unlucky

When will MD-11s be replaced
 
kappel
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting BA787 (Reply 7):
My neighbour recently travelled on KLM MD-11 to LIMA from AMS ansd declared the service and plane awful Is KLM that bad or was she unlucky

I guess unlucky. Why did dhe think the plane was aweful? Dirty, bad IFE, bad pitch? IFE is known to be outdated on KLM, except on the 772 and a332, and the pitch is a pretty standard (for european airlines anyway) 31". If it's dirty, than it hadn't been cleaned well in AMS. My experience with KLM has always been good, nice f/a's, clean plane, and i don't really need AVOD, so the IFE was fine for me. So KLM is by no means a bad airline, also not the best in the world.Check this link out:
http://www.airlinequality.com/StarRanking/4star.htm

Quoting BA787 (Reply 7):
When will MD-11s be replaced

in 2015 will the replacement program start. Probably to be replaced by the 787/a350(or a370, whatever it will be called)

[Edited 2006-06-04 11:25:45]
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HB-IWC
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:34 pm

The retrofit program is supposed to take care of the obsolete state of the IFE on KLM's 22-strong B744 and 10-strong MD11 fleets. On the other hand, no matter how much the MD11 is despised on this board, any frequent KLM traveler will be able to tell you that the first compartment of the World Business Class on the MD11 (rows 1 and 2) is the best WBC in the entire KLM fleet.

As to the reliability of the MD11 in the KLM fleet, the aircraft does have a lower dispatch reliability rate than other widebody aircraft types with KLM, but the difference is not significant. Also, the MD11's average utilization rates have always been skyhigh and were the highest among the KLM longhaul fleet until they were overtaken by the increased utilization rates of the growing fleet of B772ERs recently. High utilization rates combined with a relatively small fleet size (10 frames only) always tends to eat into the dispatch reliability rates. I would say, however, that the perceived inferior operational performance of the MD11s is not sustained by the facts.
 
BA787
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:35 pm

IFE i think. and very noisy and very dirty and bad service. she was angry with me because id said they were very good. She apparently preferred the F100 from LBA - schipol

I said "You should have been pleased, you were on a classic airliner" got a very dirty look cheers T.C. when was the first MD11 delivered to KLM? Howe old are the Finnair MD11?
 
kappel
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:46 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
The retrofit program is supposed to take care of the obsolete state of the IFE on KLM's 22-strong B744 and 10-strong MD11 fleets.

Isn't this only for WBC. IIRC in economy all they are doing is replacing the CRT's for LCD's, but no personal IFE. Has that changed?

Quoting BA787 (Reply 10):
IFE i think. and very noisy and very dirty and bad service. she was angry with me because id said they were very good. She apparently preferred the F100 from LBA - schipol

I guess she had really bad luck than, it happens. I have no negative things to say about KLM inflight. However the customer service on the ground (especially Flying Blue) leaves a lot to be desired, but that's a different matter.

Quoting BA787 (Reply 10):
when was the first MD11 delivered to KLM? Howe old are the Finnair MD11?

KLM's have been delivered from 1993 to 1998, so they are not that old yet. They will be when they are finally replaced, but they have some life in them yet.
Finnair's are built between 1990 and 1998. Some are second-hand. (Citybird, Varig)
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sk601
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:47 pm

Quoting BA787 (Reply 10):
IFE i think. and very noisy and very dirty and bad service

Too bad she had a negative experience. I flew KL a few weeks ago in m-class. It was a 10hr flight. Seatpitch is only 31", and since I'm 1.83m, it was cramped. The a/c was clean, seats -besides the pitch- comfy. No PTVs, but I don't really care. It's too bad that most people can only be entertained via the means of a TV. What about a book or listen to some music? KL offered good music on the flight I must say. I also flew longhaul with PTV (NW A330), and too be honest, from 8hrs in-flight, I watched only 2hrs or so. I found the service excellent on the KL flight. Fa's were around all the time and very friendly. It's a peoples business, so she was unlucky I guess.

Quoting BA787 (Reply 10):
when was the first MD11 delivered to KLM?

PH-KCA december 1993 "Amy Johnson", newest MD 11 is PH-KCK, april 1997 "Ingrid Bergman".
 
BA787
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:53 pm

Quoting SK601 (Reply 12):

that is nearly what i said to her about the book but she complained that IFE on a 10hr flight is important lol KL cant please everyone though ! cheers T.C.
 
sk601
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:56 pm

Quoting BA787 (Reply 13):
KL cant please everyone though !

 checkmark 
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 11):
Isn't this only for WBC. IIRC in economy all they are doing is replacing the CRT's for LCD's, but no personal IFE. Has that changed?

That is also my understanding. The upgrade to an increased number of higher quality flat screens in Y should however reinforce the quality of the IFE albeit only bit. For the WBC, and the fares that KLM is still charging, an upgrade to AVOD is more than necessary, but as for the seats, I am pretty sure that most frequent flyers are not looking forward to the replacement of the current seat by a B772/A332 type of WBC seat.
 
kappel
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:06 pm

Quoting BA787 (Reply 13):
KL cant please everyone though

Even airlines like SQ and CX have critics, so no airline can please everybody. That's ok though, as long as you please most people, and seeing the pax figures from KL (on the rise) I guess they are doing ok.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
BA787
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:08 pm

I like KL personally
 
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Luxair
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:57 pm

I was last week on a Flight from CYVR to AMS on the MD11 and honestly they need to change urgently their eco class seats!!! I was sitting in 35 F and my seat couldn't recline at all and all the headphone plugs around me (incl. mine) where broken (no sound and if there was a sound than it was so bad that it was not possible to listen too) I was not complaining because I was traveling as non-rev passenger but of course all the others around me did. I heard the purser tell them that the eco class seats will be replaced soon by 777 style seats with inbuild screen ect., That was one of my worstiest flights ever!!!
 
lijnden
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:07 pm

I have flown on PH-KCB and PH-KCI recently and find the cabin in the back (Y-class) to be just OK for my 1.88m. No IFE, just the screens above the ailes. Flights were on-time and smooth, as were the landings. Food was good and the f/a's did a good job as well.

I really like the lay-out 3-4-2 of the MD-11 better than the T7's I took with UAL in y-class (2-5-2). Imagine the same IFE/AVOD and seats (not the seating lay-out) on a MD-11 as on a T7. What do you think passengers would choose be 'a better plane'?
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
jrebel
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 9):
any frequent KLM traveler will be able to tell you that the first compartment of the World Business Class on the MD11 (rows 1 and 2) is the best WBC in the entire KLM fleet.

You said it!

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
I am pretty sure that most frequent flyers are not looking forward to the replacement of the current seat by a B772/A332 type of WBC seat.

You said it again!

Johan
 
sk601
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 19):
I really like the lay-out 3-4-2 of the MD-11

This will change to 3-3-3 (  Sad )

Quoting Luxair (Reply 18):
I heard the purser tell them that the eco class seats will be replaced soon by 777 style seats with inbuild screen ect.,

Same seats, but PTV is not sure yet.
 
wjcandee
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting BA787 (Reply 10):
IFE i think. and very noisy and very dirty and bad service. she was angry with me because id said they were very good.

Amazing how that happens. When someone has an unhappy flight, then *everything* was wrong, and it's always about subjective stuff. It was DIRTY and it was NOISY and it the service was "BAD". All subjective. Something made her mad, and then she ended up hating everything. If the f/a had schmoozed her and made her happy, then chances are the rest of the stuff would never have been noticed. And anyone can have "bad" service on any airline on any day.
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting SK601 (Reply 21):
Quoting Lijnden (Reply 19):
I really like the lay-out 3-4-2 of the MD-11

This will change to 3-3-3 ( Sad )

That's really sad. 3-4-2 has something for everyone. The 2-seaters tend to go first on full flights so changing to all 3-s is not an improvement.

So many people travel in pairs or with 2 children. The 3-3-3 layout has the disadvantage (when fully booked) of offering only middle seats leftovers at the end (creating islands, we say). And have you ever tried changing a passenger from an aisle to a middle seat ;-(
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
ehho
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting KLMyank (Thread starter):
No mention of economy.

I hope they won't change the seats, just the upholstery. I've never flown on PH-KC* MDs, but I totally love the KL 74M in Y. Their economy is really good for long flights: nice, wide, cushy, backward tilted seats, with no PTV hardware blocking your legroom. Please just upholster them anew!

It seems that 74M and MD-11 have different seats on KL, or is it just the upholstery?

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Vasu
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 24):
It seems that 74M and MD-11 have different seats on KL, or is it just the upholstery?

Different seats... the ones in the 744M are fairly new... I think they were introduced in 2000/2001?
 
AA777
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:48 am

The MD-11s Y class NEEDS to be replaced / updated/ reupholstered. I flew on one of KL's newer M11s in January and it was simply uncomfortable. The seats were too soft, too small, and dirty. It needed to be cleaned badly. And on a 7 hour flight to DXB from AMS, PTVs would be wonderful. That is not a short flight. Its not 10+ hours. But its not short either. Imagine flying AMS-SFO on an MD-11 with no PTVs..... yikes

-AA777
 
klmcedric
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:28 am

IFE is becoming more and more important for the average passenger.
Considering the truckload of money KLM raked in last year, investing in placing
the A330/B777 AVOD system fleetwide and in all classes is most probably
a good thing to do.
The contrast is simply too big. One half of the fleet has a top-rated AVOD
system and the other half a completely ridiculous almost non-existing
IFE.

Is there anyone here that could made an accurate estimacy of how much it
would cost to fit eg a 747 with the avod system!
 
sk601
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 27):
Is there anyone here that could made an accurate estimacy of how much it
would cost to fit eg a 747 with the avod system!

I don't know what 1 Y-class seat with AVOD will cost, but I do know that 1 KLM WBC seat costs €30.000,- (thirty thousand)
 
kappel
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:46 am

A bit different subject, but in what timeframe is KLM looking to replace the 733's and 734's. The early 733's are already pudhin 20 years, and last year Van Wijk said they would both be replaced with 738's and 739's. But so far all we have seen is an order for 4 738's a while ago. Any news on this front?

Quoting AA777 (Reply 26):
The MD-11s Y class NEEDS to be replaced / updated/ reupholstered. I flew on one of KL's newer M11s in January and it was simply uncomfortable. The seats were too soft, too small, and dirty. It needed to be cleaned badly. And on a 7 hour flight to DXB from AMS, PTVs would be wonderful. That is not a short flight. Its not 10+ hours. But its not short either. Imagine flying AMS-SFO on an MD-11 with no PTVs..... yikes

Since the MD11's are here for at least 9 more years, and perhaps the 744's as well, I would think it's not a bad investment. OTOH, LH and IB also have no IFE for coach, so maybe KLM management is thinking they don't need it.

[Edited 2006-06-09 01:03:34]
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
GVWOW
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 27):
Is there anyone here that could made an accurate estimacy of how much it
would cost to fit eg a 747 with the avod system!

VS stated that retrofitting a 747 with V:PORT costs 2'000'000 pounds.

edit: Added KLMCedric quote to make post sound more on-topic.

[Edited 2006-06-09 01:04:16]
 
globetrekker
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:32 am

I flew on all 10 of KLM's MD11's. Well having worked for KLM Aruba... what other choice did I have?

Over the years KLM changed the seats on the MD11's a few times; mostly decreasing M-class seats. KLM's MD11's are not the best aircraft in the fleet and they are noisier than the other aircraft, but give me the MD11 over KLM's 767 any day! What a disaster plane!

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 23):
That's really sad. 3-4-2 has something for everyone. The 2-seaters tend to go first on full flights so changing to all 3-s is not an improvement

It is indeed sad to see the familiar 3-4-2 go. Just hope that their isn't a last minute aircraft change from an "old" MD11 to the newer retrofitted one. A hassle to get everyone reseated after BP's have been issued.  Smile

A few months ago I went on holiday to China and I non-revved HEL-PEK and PVG-HEL on Finnair. AY's layout is 3-4-3. You have approximately the same amount of seats like KLM, but because of the layout, you had a lot of legroom. Being on a flight that long, it made a difference!

On the ther hand a non-revved on MP MIA-AMS a few years back and that was terrible! 350 and more pax on a MD11.  crowded 

Globe Trekker
The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
 
kappel
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RE: KLM 747 And MD11 To Get New C Class And Avod

Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:13 pm

Quoting GlobeTrekker (Reply 31):
On the ther hand a non-revved on MP MIA-AMS a few years back and that was terrible! 350 and more pax on a MD11.

Does MP also have 3-4-3 in coach? I suppose their 763's are 2-4-2?

Quoting GlobeTrekker (Reply 31):
It is indeed sad to see the familiar 3-4-2 go. Just hope that their isn't a last minute aircraft change from an "old" MD11 to the newer retrofitted one. A hassle to get everyone reseated after BP's have been issued.

Thankfully I never have a problem with the 3 seats (3-3-3), because I mostly travel with my wife and daughter. But when I only travel with my wife, it would indeed be nice to have a row with two seats, so I think it is indeed too bad they are changing this. Any idea why they are doing that?
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