ANCFlyer
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HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:11 pm

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/aviation/story/7796613p-7709110c.html

Apparently yesterday's ANC-LAS flight HP142 was diverted because the plane hit a goose and had a cracked windshield.

After the goose hit the windshield, the pilot descended below 10,000 feet, then landed as a precaution, Hein said. No one aboard the plane was injured.

OK, here's some puzzling questions . . .

SIT is 592 miles from ANC . . . why go all the way to SIT where there are no hotels of consequence and not JNU where there are plenty of beds (and only 15 min flying time from SIT) or back to ANC? There are no ground services for A319s in JNU, SIT (or pretty much anywhere else in Southeast Alaska - the bastion of AS and their fleet of 737s).

When did they hit the goose? What altitude was that Goose Flying that allowed HP142 to go almost 600 miles before finding a suitable airport to land? If the plane was struck on departure from ANC, why not return to ANC?
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ABQopsHP
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:32 pm

Its quite possible for a bird of that size to be up at altitude, riding thermals. Although hitting one at 500mph would not be pretty. The report did say "errant goose", but did not elaborate. There is no one at ABQ ops I could call right now to find out what happened. The crew most likely wanted to get on the ground ASAP, hence the reason to drop into SIT and not return to ANC. Ive seen what a bird can do to a windshield on an a/c, and a cracked one just inches from your face is a bit nervewracking.
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L-188
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:35 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
SIT is 592 miles from ANC . . . why go all the way to SIT

I have no idea they would have been at cruise altitude by the time they got over Cordova. Seems pretty high to hit a goose.....The story about the goose sounds like bunk. As you said, they would have hit it over one of the Arms in Anchorage......I can't see them not going back to ANC, or at least not a valid reason for not returning to ANC.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
where there are no hotels of consequence and not JNU where there are plenty of beds (and only 15 min flying time from SIT) or back to ANC?

Don't sell Sitka short, they get plenty of tourist trade. Not as much as Juneau but that is because they are on the seaward side of Barnoff not on the inside passage. As far as the airport goes. I think it is longer and Sitka doesn't have that crazy half-assed approach down a fijord that Juneau has. A lot less tricky for a 1st timer to get in. And besides there is plenty of hotel space there.
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wedgetail737
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 1):
Its quite possible for a bird of that size to be up at altitude, riding thermals.

I can hardly believe that you would see any wildlife flying around at 20,000-plus feet, if not, 28K to 37K feet, even with thermals. A goose could not live at temperatures that high and the lack of O2 at that altitude.

The goose must have hit at take-off but the resulting damage to the aircraft probably wasn't apparent until it reached altitude.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 1):
Its quite possible for a bird of that size to be up at altitude, riding thermals.

Dude, a damned Eagle doesn't get to FL350, much less a goose. . . you gotta be kiddin' right?

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 1):
The crew most likely wanted to get on the ground ASAP, hence the reason to drop into SIT and not return to ANC.

Unless that a/c was struck somewhere over the Gulf of Alaska, I can't imagine NOT returning to ANC . . .

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
The goose must have hit at take-off but the resulting damage to the aircraft probably wasn't apparent until it reached altitude.

That's my bet . . . but even so - this is a Goose, it's going to make a pretty big bang regardless . . . no one noticed a cracked windshield until they were an hour down range???  scratchchin 

Quoting L-188 (Reply 2):
Don't sell Sitka short, they get plenty of tourist trade.

Which is my point - it's tourist season - most beds are full right now.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 2):
As far as the airport goes. I think it is longer and Sitka doesn't have that crazy half-assed approach down a fijord that Juneau has

SIT is 6500 feet, with no overrun - unless you count the Pacific Ocean.

JNU is 8500 feet, with no overrun - unless you count the Gastineau Channel.

WX in JNU last night was clear.

I won't second guess the crew - but I'd have gone to JNU.

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 1):
There is no one at ABQ ops I could call right now to find out what happened.

Anything you could provide would be cool.

Now - anyone lucky enough to have a photo of an HP/US A319 in SIT!  wink 
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ABQopsHP
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:57 pm

That could be true about not noticing the damage until later. Continuing a flight with known damage is sure to get you into trouble. I thought that id seen something on the Discovery channel sometime back about migratory birds flying at high altitudes. I.E. 20k plus, but it could have been a fluke.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 5):
a flight with known damage is sure to get you into trouble.

Do you have a rego?

Too bad no pictures . . . that'd be one for this site . . . if it got past the screeners  duck  wink 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ABQopsHP
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:04 pm

Its late sat eve, and I have my feelers out to a few friends. No replys yet as to what happened. I would love to see fotos as well!
ABQ ops, Cactus 202 requesting you order 5 Green Chile Chicken stew for us to p/u on arrival. ;)
 
L-188
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:16 pm

Damm can't find my old approach plate book. It's hiding right now. But there is no way in hell that you can get lower at JNU then you can at SIT. I don't remember but I am also sure there are some pretty good warning comments on the JNU charts.

And I would put up some definate considerations when choosing an alternate. If the transistion point for the approach is on the airway you are already on and all other factors are equal-might as well use it.

The other thing to consider is that on most flight plans to Seattle I used to file to Seattle I used to use Biorka Island and that is at the mouth of the bay that leads into Sitka. From what I remember when I used to watch Flytetracker on the computer at work, most of the flights where over the pacific, very few over the inside passage until they got to the northern end of Vancouver Island.


Your right on the lenghts though. but like I said, Juneau is on the side of a fijord, and Sitka is right in the open. I looked at at FAI FSDO webside by they don't have a good approach shot for JNU listed.


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ANCFlyer
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:34 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 8):
I don't remember but I am also sure there are some pretty good warning comments on the JNU charts.

Yeah, particularly on the approach up form the city . . . bridges, mountains, radio antenna.

AirNav simply says "SEE SPECIAL NOTICES AND GENEWRAL NOTICES FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON OPNS IN JUNEAU AREA" - including the typo on the word General.

Nothing special on NOTAMs either.

I believe, and someone from AS could confirm this, special training is required for an approach into JNU? You and I remember that C-12F that crashed in 1992 . . . . and most folks know of the AS 721 that crashed in 1971 - in almost the same place.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L-188
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Yeah, particularly on the approach up form the city . . . bridges, mountains, radio antenna

Yeah there is special approach into Juneau from the south that only Alaska airlines uses.

Everything else comes in from the west.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
I believe, and someone from AS could confirm this, special training is required for an approach into JNU?

The one up ther city is but there are published approaches that anybody IFR rated can use, but they will have higher minimums.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
You and I remember that C-12F that crashed in 1992 . . . . and most folks know of the AS 721 that crashed in 1971 - in almost the same place.

92, don't remember that. I would have been in Germany and Ft. Gordon that year. 721 I heard all about. It was full of college kids that where on their way down to Sitka to start the new semester at SJ.

My mother had a standby ticket for that flight and wasn't able to get on...thank god.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
92, don't remember that.

Army C-12F crashed on top of the Chilkat Range, killed 8, two generals, a CSM, 2 Colonels, 1 CW4, 1 SFC and the Generals aide, an E6.

CVR revealed "less than friendly atmosphere" in the cockpit. Flying IFR. Cleared to begin descent, down to XXX altitude, but mistook Barlo for Dibol on the approach and didn't clear the mountains. Descended too quickly. Hit the hill at full gallop. No fire. Tail separated from the fuselage as did the wings. All within 100 feet. Couldn't get to the site because of weather for over a day.

I'll tell you the real down and dirty sometime - in private. I helped pull the bodies out of the thing . . . it wasn't a fun week (blinding flash of the obvious).
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WJ
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:23 pm

Just because an aircraft struck a bird doesn't mean it has to divert right away. The rules do give the captain the call during the flight, depending on the type of damage. If during flight the windsheild cracks all the way through, is it expanding, or were the heating elements in the window were damaged, those may cause a diversion. But if those are not happening and it's simply on the outer glass pane, then there is no reason for the flight to turn back. It is likely that some changes took place while at level flight which caused the captain to decide to put the aircraft down.
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HAL
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:32 pm

I have flown with the Captain of that flight before, and he is a very good, calm & competent pilot. I'm sure he had a reason to divert to SIT instead of JNU. Remember, any diversion decision is made by the Captain and SOCC (System Operations Control Center, or Dispatch) together. They look at things like runway length, weather, and types of approaches available. Also, SIT was probably a lot closer. I'd flown a few of the ANC trips for AWA before I left last month, and the route takes us anywhere from 30 to 50 miles offshore in that area. I'm sure that played a part in their decision.

From what I can gather, the plane is still there. According to what I've read, the new windshield won't be there until Sunday morning, then it once it is installed will take another 12 hours for the sealant to cure. The crew was already on day four of their four-day trip, and are still currently in SIT. They're flying home Sunday morning on Alaska airlines, and another crew will come up to ferry the plane back to either LAS or PHX.

HAL
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ANCFlyer
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
From what I can gather, the plane is still there. According to what I've read, the new windshield won't be there until Sunday morning, then it once it is installed will take another 12 hours for the sealant to cure

We need pics by golly!!!!

An HP/US 319 in SIT. Tell me, new colors or old?

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
Remember, any diversion decision is made by the Captain and SOCC (System Operations Control Center, or Dispatch) together. They look at things like runway length, weather, and types of approaches available. Also, SIT was probably a lot closer.

I'd never second guess the crew . . .

I hope they're enjoying SIT . . . perhaps even got to put a line in the water today while they are waiting.

What did they do with the pax? Obviously they're not still in SIT, did US fly up another plane, or could they find space on AS to get them all outta there?
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L-188
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
According to what I've read, the new windshield won't be there until Sunday morning, then it once it is installed will take another 12 hours for the sealant to cure

Ahh the joys of pro-seal. I hope it doesn't rain when they are trying to use it!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
I'd never second guess the crew . . .

A dispatcher isn't there to second-guess the crew. Part of the job is to look at his airport data and make recommendations on where to go.
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We're Nuts
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Dude, a damned Eagle doesn't get to FL350, much less a goose. . . you gotta be kiddin' right?

Entirely possible. Birds are designed for flight, remember, and whatever it entails.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 16):
Entirely possible. Birds are designed for flight, remember, and whatever it entails.

Well, Nutsy . . . I'm quite aware that birds are 'designed for flight'. But I'll be damned if I believe you're gonna run into an Eagle - much less a Goose at FL350. . . or FL330 . . . or FL230 . . .

http://www.baldeagleinfo.com/eagle/eagle-facts.html
Bald eagles can fly to an altitude of 10,000 feet. During level flight, they can achieve speeds of about 30 to 35 mph.


Now it's a known fact that a Salmon did in fact break the windsheild of an AS 737 on climb out near Juneau one day - while both were in flight.
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jetset
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:38 pm

It is possible to hit a goose in cruise. About 6 months a UPS B757 struck a goose in cruise at I believe FL360 over COS while enroute BDL-SMF.
Do a search on the NTSB website and you will find the report.
Last year we hit a goose at FL220 on decent into YEG.
rgds/Jetset
 
jetset
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:48 pm

To correct my above reply the route was SDF-MHR I'm trying to find the actual report.
rgds/Jetset
 
jetset
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:51 pm

DATE/SITE: 03 Nov. 2325Z Colorado Springs
AIRCRAFT & REGN: 757 of UPS Flt: UPS28
CIRCUMSTANCES: Struck a goose at FL360, desc FL280 due cracked windshield &
continued
DEATH & INJURY: Nil/4 o/b
PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS2 Imagery at www.iasa.com.au/211105.htm: Louisville, Ky.,
for Sacramento, Calif. No emergency declared.
 
ABQopsHP
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:04 pm

[quote=Jetset,reply=20][/quote, struck goose at FL360]
Thank you Jetset. Those birds do get around.
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roseflyer
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:12 am

I feel sorry for the passengers who got stuck in Sitka's tiny little airport. That airport is very small, but I am sure they prefer to be in Sitka and safe than in the ocean if a decompression happened and the pilot got sucked out of the plane. The approach into Juneau is way too difficult for it to be a good diversion airports for two pilots who have probably never looked at a chart for the airport and probably have limited visibility out of at least one window because a big hulking bird died on it. A nice 6500 ft runway with an approach from over the sea sounds like a much better option than flying through a fjord.
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F9Animal
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):
When did they hit the goose? What altitude was that Goose Flying that allowed HP142 to go almost 600 miles before finding a suitable airport to land? If the plane was struck on departure from ANC, why not return to ANC?

I will take an uneducated guess on the last question. If it hit the bird on takeoff, could it have to do with the weight perhaps? Maybe it flew to burn off some fuel, and SIT was suitable to land with enough burnoff on fuel? This would be a good pilot question!!
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DCrawley
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
someone from AS could confirm this, special training is required for an approach into JNU?

Here's a confirmation. It's a RNP GPS approach from the east that comes down the valley with mountains on both sides while being below the rising terrain. I think the minimums are about 300 feet. It require specially equipt aircraft and specially qualified pilots.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Well, Nutsy . . . I'm quite aware that birds are 'designed for flight'. But I'll be damned if I believe you're gonna run into an Eagle - much less a Goose at FL350. . . or FL330 . . . or FL230 . . .

My pops (years ago) hit a goose at FL260 and has hit an eagle at FL360. I've never encountered it, but heard of it from many guys. I'd rather just chop up something like a sparrow on take off (LoL just kidding). Anyways, hope this can be of some help. If ya need anything else, let me know. Have a great Sunday!

d
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
PDXflyer31
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:36 am

Some wayward birds do indeed get that high, although its extremely rare. I recall an incident over west Africa in the '80s when an airliner had its windshield smashed by some kind of a large bird at 37,000 feet, can't remember what kind though.

Where did I read it? In the Guiness Book of World Records, 1993 or 1994 edition. It was the highest official altitude ever documented for a bird in flight.
 
PDXflyer31
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:42 am

Looks like I just found a link for the incident I referred to in my previous post - read the very first paragraph.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/zoo00/zoo00388.htm
 
ABQopsHP
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:34 am

Ok guys, I have more info. It was a/c 801, but im not sure if its in the new USAirways scheme or old HP. The windshield has been replaced and the a/c is to be or has been ferried out today. SOCC was a zoo when I got this info and didnt want to press any further. But alas, still no pics.
ABQ ops, Cactus 202 requesting you order 5 Green Chile Chicken stew for us to p/u on arrival. ;)
 
Continental
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting PDXflyer31 (Reply 26):
Looks like I just found a link for the incident I referred to in my previous post - read the very first paragraph.

Thanks for the link. I was very suprised to read that a Mallard flew at 21,000 feet!!
 
DLKAPA
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:00 am

Migratory birds can get surprisingly high up, I belive it that they could have struck the thing while cruising. Bald Eagles aren't migratory so I'm not surprised that they can only get up to 10K feet. I've heard of a type of hawk (I think it might be the Swainson's) that will ride thermals all the way up to around 7 miles high, then drift down to where they're going. Very energy efficient way of flight.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 24):
Here's a confirmation. It's a RNP GPS approach from the east that comes down the valley with mountains on both sides while being below the rising terrain. I think the minimums are about 300 feet. It require specially equipt aircraft and specially qualified pilots.

Thanks for that DC!  thumbsup 

As for Geese and Altitude - learned something new.

Thanks for that too. . . .

Gotta be a hell of a thing for the crew - cruising along at FL360 and whammo, lunch on the windshield!  crazy 
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LGA777
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:27 pm

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 27):
Ok guys, I have more info. It was a/c 801, but im not sure if its in the new USAirways scheme or old HP. The windshield has been replaced and the a/c is to be or has been ferried out today. SOCC was a zoo when I got this info and didnt want to press any further. But alas, still no pics.

There are two photo's on another site showing N801AW is now in the new US scheme. I am glad everyone is okay.

I flew thru Sitka back in the 80's on an Alaska 737-200 combi on a thru flight and what an unfogettable experiance ! A beautiful little airport and surrounding scenery. Did a search and these two photo's are the best I found at sharing the beauty I remember from SIT !


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brian Hames
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brian Hames



Regards

LGA777
 
Chugach
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:15 pm

It was in the new colors...I saw that plane take off from ANC while I was waiting for an AS flight to DLG on Friday. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say they chose Sitka because it's closest to the original flight path.
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DCrawley
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
Thanks for that DC!

You are very welcome ANCFlyer! It's threads like this that remind me why I joined this forum. I'm so disgusted with many of the daily bs threads on here anymore it's tough to read for very long. Anyways, beyond my ranting..

It's a very interesting approach and thank God for RNP/GPS. I'll try and get cold, hard data today and scan/type it up tonight.

Have a great Monday!

-dc
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reyes27
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
WX in JNU last night was clear

Weather in JNU was far from clear the entire weekend. Rainy, windy, and a pretty low ceiling...typical SE Alaska day. Friday and Saturday was the worse, couldn't see the mountains.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: HP142 ANC-LAS Diverts To SIT

Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:02 pm

Heard SIT was chosen because the Sitka airport shares its runway with the Coast Guard Air Station. Two H60's helicopters were put on the ready in the event the flight encountered additional problems with all of the ocean and mountains around S.E. Alaska.

flightaware.com shows SIT to be slightly less distance than the JNU airport as it relates to ATC routing. It comes down to where the flight was when the bird strike occurred.
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