USPIT10L
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TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:07 am

Hi all. With the search function broken, I thought I'd give this question a stab. Sorry if it's been posted or asked before. What airport did TWA use in Berlin? I have a January 14, 1990 system timetable from TWA that has Berlin-Frankfurt nonstop service twice a day. The flight numbers were TW931 and TW933, with TW931 changing aircraft in FRA and then going to JFK. There are no flight routings in the back of the book and there is no airport offices listing in the timetable either. Just route maps, general information and flight schedules. Anyone know out there? Thanks in advance.
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LAXintl
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:20 am

Tegel,

Not listed as that is the only airport US carriers used by that time. Remember Berlin was a divided city for several decades.

TW also operated a BRU-TXL flight using 721s for a little while.
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USPIT10L
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
Not listed as that is the only airport US carriers used by that time. Remember Berlin was a divided city for several decades.

But what about the IGS services from PA? Those weren't sold until 1991, and they were all from THF.

Thanks for the info.
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antonovman
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:26 am

"But what about the IGS services from PA? Those weren't sold until 1991, and they were all from THF."
they werent, the majority were from TXL, PanAm did buy out a small airline called Templehof Airlines I think and got their ATR's but that didnt last long
 
PanAm747
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:31 am

After WWII, the three powers in West Berlin allowed only one airline from each of the countries to serve West Berlin - Air France, BEA, and Pan Am. No other airlines were able to serve West Berlin.

After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the city was no longer a "Special Military Zone". The rules that limited air service no longer applied. Airlines were free to begin service as they wish - that is why TWA tried Brussells-Berlin (as a tag-on).

I wonder if the problems of the small size of Berlin's airports have kept airlines from establishing large amounts of service. With the crowding of FRA and the opening of BBI, maybe the situation will change.
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LAXintl
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 2):
But what about the IGS services from PA? Those weren't sold until 1991, and they were all from THF.

All the Pan Am IGS services using B727s & Airbus equipment operated from Tegel. PA moved to Tegel in the mid 70s.
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cedarjet
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
All the Pan Am IGS services using B727s & Airbus equipment operated from Tegel. PA moved to Tegel in the mid 70s.



Quoting Antonovman (Reply 3):
the majority were from TXL, PanAm did buy out a small airline called Templehof Airlines I think and got their ATR's but that didnt last long

Where are you getting your information?! Templehof always got plenty of Pan Am flying, and not with piddly ATRs either.

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LAXintl
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 6):
Where are you getting your information?! Templehof always got plenty of Pan Am flying, and not with piddly ATRs either.

Like I said... Pan Am IGS moved to Tegel in the mid 70s.
Just look at the date of your pictures at THF.
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vv701
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
After WWII, the three powers in West Berlin allowed only one airline from each of the countries to serve West Berlin - Air France, BEA, and Pan Am. No other airlines were able to serve West Berlin.

This arrangement did not last until the fall of the Berlin wall. I recall seeing Dan Air aircraft at TXL on a journey from London to the Leipzig Spring Fair via Checkpoint Charlie in the Berlin Wall in the mid 80s. This is confirmed below:

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PanHAM
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:31 am

I do not remember the exact year when the BE and PA ops moved to TXLbut it was in the early to mid 70s.

Before that, PA had 727 serivice to THF and BE had Bac 1-11s, I have been on both many times. AF always used TXL and at times, the 2 daily Caravelles ORY-DUS-TXL were the only scheduled services at that airport.
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HB-IWC
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
TW also operated a BRU-TXL flight using 721s for a little while

And also a TXL-BRU-JFK service, all the way with B767. I took it twice from BRU to JFK and the flight originated in TXL as a same aircraft service. It was early 90s.
 
IADLHR
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:34 am

In May, 1994 I flew TW from IAD-CDG-TXL-CDG-IAD Just the other day I ran across some old notes from that trip. Anyway, one way, cant remember which way it was there was one stop IAD-CDG-TXL. Cant remember which leg that was. On the other leg it was a change @ CDG. Sorry I cant be more precise.
If I remmber correctly, it seemed that prior to my trip TW was more or less experimenting where to stop in Europe on the way to TXL. It so happened that when my trip took place it was @CDG.
 
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mats
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:46 am

I remember seeing a TWA flight at Tegel in 1992. I think it was an L1011 (probably an L15). I'm 90 percent sure it was a Lockheed, not a 767. The flight was to JFK via Copenhagen.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 11):
In May, 1994 I flew TW from IAD-CDG-TXL-CDG-IAD Just the other day I ran across some old notes from that trip. Anyway, one way, cant remember which way it was there was one stop IAD-CDG-TXL. Cant remember which leg that was. On the other leg it was a change @ CDG. Sorry I cant be more precise.
If I remmber correctly, it seemed that prior to my trip TW was more or less experimenting where to stop in Europe on the way to TXL. It so happened that when my trip took place it was @CDG.

IIRC, TW tried to build a hub at CDG around '93 or '94. I remember seeing a map of CDG1 in a TWA schedule around that time. TW's history has fascinated me ever since AA bought them in 2001. They were the first major airline to fly to PIT, starting service way back in 1930. They were also the first to open a reservations center and fly transatlantic from PIT, running PHL-PIT-LGW in the summer of 1981, the year I was born. Thanks for the replies, I should've posted on this stuff sooner.
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TWACaptain
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:26 pm

I was one of the pilots on the TWA IGS operation in 1989 so I can hopefully answer your question with some expertise. TWA operated from 2-3 gates at Tegel (TXL) using a fleet of four 727-31s at any one time (they were rotated back to the USA on a regular basis). Although the schedule did vary seasonally, at various times, TWA operated 5x daily TXL-FRA, 3x TXL-HAM, 2x TXL-NUE, 2x TXL-STR, 3x TXL-MUC. Additionally, flights were also operated to AMS, BRU, CDG, GVA and ZRH although most of these routes didn't last very long.

During the closing days of the IGS, it was decided that the 727-31s were too expensive to operate in Europre and three DC9-30s were en route to TXL to replace them when someone at headquarters realized the aircraft leases precluded them from being operated outside of the continental US and they had to call the aircraft back before they left Gander for Europe.

Hope this helps.

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columba
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:41 pm

Tegel was the main airport in West-Berlin. Untill 1990 they were only a few airlines operating from Tegel:
-Pan Am (and Pan Am Express)
-British Airways
-Air France
-TWA
-Dan Air
-Air Berlin USA
-EuroBerlin France (AF and LH cooperation)

Tempelhof was the Military Airport for the US, Gatow was used by the British Army and Tegel North was used by the Frensh Military.
Tempelhof was the main airport untill Tegel was opened in the 1970s (I believe it was 1974).

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 3):
PanAm did buy out a small airline called Templehof Airlines I think and got their ATR's but that didnt last long

Tempelhof Airways was a small regional carrier operating from Tempelhof using Nord 262 and later Saab 340 aircraft and had no connection with Pan Am
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TriStar500
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:10 pm

Quoting Mats (Reply 12):
I think it was an L1011 (probably an L15).

You were most likely on an L1011-50 or -100, since TW did not operate the -500.
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PanHAM
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:38 pm

Columba has compiled a good list of airlines serving Berlin. Add Modern Air, (operating CV990s) and it is complete.

TWA's services were short lived indeed. They came at a wrong time (LH gained full access after the 4 + 2 treaty was signed) and with the wrong aircraft, I did not hear the story about the DC9s but it completes the picture, Wonder how much money they lost on this adventure.
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columba
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:09 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
I did not hear the story about the DC9s

I remember seeing a TWA MD 80 once but it also could have been a Dc 9 - it is around 20 years ago.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Add Modern Air, (operating CV990s) and it is complete.

Yes, I did not add Modern Air because I felt it played only a minor role in Berlin and I believe they were not around in the late 80s anymore.

Can somebody please tell me what happened with the EuroBerlin France 737s ?
Were they LH/AF owned aircraft or leased ones ?
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AA717driver
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RE: TWA Service To Berlin

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:13 pm

Like TWACaptain said, the DC9's (or MD80's for that matter) never operated in Europe.

I flew the JFK-BRU-TXL route in Jan '91 and later did JFK-AMS-TXL a couple of times after than (notably on the day that Carl Icahn was forced out of TWA).

TWA had a CDG hub for a long time before the '93-'94 time frame. It was not uncommon to arrive at CDG and find a couple of 767's, a couple of 747's, three or four L1011's and a 727-131 or two there.

I missed out on the pilot base there...  Sad TC
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