leelaw
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Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:20 am

Boeing has confirmed the exterior lines for its new 747-8 aircraft but is still weighing alternatives on a handful of more specific issues before the final configuration of the aircraft is decided in the third quarter, program head Jeff Peace said yesterday.

Boeing is now at the stage where it is "making tradeoffs at [the] detailed level," said Peace. These issues include cabin architecture and whether advanced alloys should be used on some individual components. Engineers have still not decided whether it is worth extending fly-by-wire technology to the outboard ailerons.

Regarding the aircraft interior, questions such as which side the stairs should be on and the location of galleys are still under discussion. Boeing is proposing taking the galleys from the Door Four area and moving them upstairs, which would create space for 12 more seats on the main deck. The airframer also is still undecided on whether to include the self-dimming windows that are being developed for the 787...

...The airframer believes it won't have to conduct static test to failure on the wing. Because fundamental structural locations are unchanged from the -400, the structural analysis from the -400 will still be valid, Peace said. Boeing is still deciding whether it will modify existing wing production tools or build new ones...


http://www.awstonline.com/avnow/news...mm_story.jsp?id=news/747806026.xml

Good article about the status of 748 design, interesting that Boeing may not have to "break" a wing.
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United Airline
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:25 am

Will there be seats upstairs? Yes?
 
saturn5
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 1):
Will there be seats upstairs? Yes?

There must be, no way to fit 450 seats in the 3-class configuartion on the main deck.
 
leelaw
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:57 am

My guess is he's considering moving the "door four galley area" to the "loft" area of the fuselage behind the "hump" to accommodate the extra seats on the main deck.
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Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:11 am

Standard layout of 450 passengers.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7478brochure.pdf

Page 8.

Also a video of use of "unused crown space" which points out galley storage as well. I doubt you'll see any of the other ideas used.

[Edited 2006-06-04 21:16:26]
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 2):
There must be, no way to fit 450 seats in the 3-class configuartion on the main deck.

with a 60 inch F class & 40 inch 7 abreast business class much is possible
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ClassicLover
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 4):
Also a video of use of "unused crown space" which points out galley storage as well. I doubt you'll see any of the other ideas used.

What an absolutely awesome video! Thanks very much for sharing that one!

How much space is actually up there? Could they have a galley in one location, and also have suites?

Surprisingly enough, I imagine there would be a lot of takers for Economy Suites, especially on 14 hour sectors and things like that.

I thought the idea of the exercise bikes was novel! The whole concept is just screaming to be utilised. It doesn't appear to be over the top or silly (barring that water feature in the entry, can't see that happening unless it's very light) and could actually have applications in the real world. Nice work!
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:21 am

Superb video. Boeing marketing is Number one!
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BoomBoom
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 6):
Surprisingly enough, I imagine there would be a lot of takers for Economy Suites, especially on 14 hour sectors and things like that.

Alas, there is not.

Quote:
Little market for suites on 747-8

...so far, airlines are showing little interest in such things as 747-8 sky suites...

It appears unlikely, given the reaction from the recent visit to the mock-up by those airline interior specialists, that these sky suites and other amenities will show up on many, if any 747-8 passenger planes.

But the visitors did like one feature that seems certain to be on the 747-8. The added room above the main cabin allows for a galley, which will free up seats in the main cabin for more paying passengers.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine....html


The sky suites add weight and shorten the range.

[Edited 2006-06-04 22:50:16]
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ClassicLover
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8):
The sky suites add weight and shorten the range.

Sure, but it can't be a hell of a lot of weight really, can it?

Are there figures for that somewhere?
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
saturn5
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
with a 60 inch F class & 40 inch 7 abreast business class much is possible

I guess you completely missed my point.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 10):
I guess you completely missed my point.

I guess we did. What is your point, if I may ask? I did provide a link that has an illustration of Boeing's standard layout for 450 passengers.
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highflyer9790
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:05 am

i doubt any of the sky loft ideas in the video will ever be used. but if they are, would a passenger also have to buy a seat in the cabin for T/O and landing? i wouldnt think you would be able to stay in the sky loft for T/O and Landing...too bad there arent any windows up there
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Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 12):
i doubt any of the sky loft ideas in the video will ever be used.

I'd be very surprised if the galley option was not used. But anything that has to do with passenger usage, I agree, I don't give it much of a chance at all either.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 9):
Sure, but it can't be a hell of a lot of weight really, can it?

But all these things add weight to the plane, which cuts into performance.

Even a little extra weight is significant which is why some arilines even eliminate the outside paint job from some cargo airliners.

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 12):
would a passenger also have to buy a seat in the cabin for T/O and landing?

Yes, because there are no exits on the upper level, it likely would be an economy seat to use for takeoff and landing.
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Goodbye
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
The airframer also is still undecided on whether to include the self-dimming windows that are being developed for the 787...

Nooo!! Let's hope they DON'T develop them for the 748!!!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 3):
My guess is he's considering moving the "door four galley area" to the "loft" area of the fuselage behind the "hump" to accommodate the extra seats on the main deck.

I would imagine they will decide on this as the only use beyond crew rest for the loft.

Similar to the below deck galleys on many planes, the above deck galley would be used for food prep and heating, as well as cart storage, allowing for much smaller main deck galleys for Y and J cabins, basically like a "butler's pantry" for those who know what that is.

I would imagine the F galleys would remain fully functional, and due to logistics, the "upstairs" galley for the upper deck seating would also remain fully functional.

But even by doing this, you'd get a lot more seats into the 748 vs. the 744, considering the large galleys that some airlines have to have for their long-range flights (like QF, for example). With the extended range and extra seating, the 748 becomes a VERY strong candidate for QF, UA, BA, NZ, VS, SQ, etc. for their longest range 747 routes especially. Not that they'd all buy them, but I'd expect at least two of those carriers to buy the 748.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
singel09
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:37 pm

Nice all those features! But, simple thoughts pop-up.

If all these suites are indeed installed, what will that do for the turn-around time> Cleaning will take forever, making up beds etc.

Next, how to keep the atmosphere crips in those suites?

Mause
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:57 pm

If just galley and crew rest upstairs, the stairway is "employee only". If also bunks, the stair for general pax would need to be larger and also "inviting". I would think that this attic galley could also allow the First galley be a bit smaller as about half the carts coould go upstairs, except the carts would need to be rolled thru cattle class.

However, the First attendands could roll the cart back on their way to their rest stage.

There is a huge amount of food and drinks needed for 450 people over 16 hours. That is like 1,700 meals and snacks and like 2,100 beverages.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8):
The sky suites add weight and shorten the range.



Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 14):
But all these things add weight to the plane, which cuts into performance.

Even a little extra weight is significant which is why some arilines even eliminate the outside paint job from some cargo airliners.



Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 14):
Yes, because there are no exits on the upper level, it likely would be an economy seat to use for takeoff and landing.

I have made this point before, yes you add weight in the attic with the suites, but you remove weight by not needing high end FC seats on the main deck, all they need average seats in combo with the suites. It is a trade off, not simply the addition of more weight. High end seats are very very heavy.
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ClassicLover
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 14):
Even a little extra weight is significant which is why some arilines even eliminate the outside paint job from some cargo airliners.

... and I asked for figures and you gave me vagaries unrelated to my question.

Quoting Singel09 (Reply 17):
If all these suites are indeed installed, what will that do for the turn-around time> Cleaning will take forever, making up beds etc.

A 747 is not a 737 with a 20 minute turn around time. Take QF at LAX and LHR, the aircraft arrive in the morning and mostly don't depart until the evening.

Imho, the galley option will happen, the rest will depend on what happens with the first A380 configs for SQ, QF and EK. If they end up with an entirely new passenger experience internationally for the premium pax, you will see these options used on the 748. If it is similar to now, you may not. It's all wait and see.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 20):
... and I asked for figures and you gave me vagaries unrelated to my question.

You stake out a position contrary to the article and I have to prove it for you? I don't have to provide you figures. Look them up yourself.

I just quoted from the article, which I trust over your uninformed musings.

From the article:

Quote:
But all these things add weight to the plane, which cuts into performance.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/270463_air17.html

You can accept it or not, I really don't care.

[Edited 2006-06-05 18:55:43]
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ClassicLover
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 21):
I don't have to provide you figures. Look them up yourself.

I tried and couldn't find any, which probably means there are none published at this stage.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 21):
I just quoted what was from the article, which I trust over your uninformed musings.

Touché!

"But all these things add weight to the plane, which cuts into performance. And airlines would have to charge passengers a premium to use such amenities."

The article is inferring that making passengers pay a premium for these amenities is a big no no and shouldn't be done. Airlines like BA, SQ, QF and the like extort money at present from the premium classes for their bed products. I am certain they could do the same with these new concepts.

However, as I am prone to "uninformed musings", perhaps I should refrain from comment altogether  Wink
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 22):
"But all these things add weight to the plane, which cuts into performance. And airlines would have to charge passengers a premium to use such amenities."

The article is inferring that making passengers pay a premium for these amenities is a big no no and shouldn't be done. Airlines like BA, SQ, QF and the like extort money at present from the premium classes for their bed products. I am certain they could do the same with these new concepts.

There are two issues here, the performance and the premium. I agree with you about the premium, but the added weight reducing range could be a real deal killer. What good is it to buy a bed if you are going to be awaken for a tech stop?

Quote:
It is less certain if airlines will ever order a 747-8 with the Sky Suites. The added weight would cut into the plane's performance, although airlines could charge first- or business-class passengers more to use them.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...ml?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=173
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saturn5
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 11):
I guess we did. What is your point, if I may ask?

I was replying to Keesje, not you. He sort of suggested that Boeing could have moved all seats out of the upper deck which my point was .. physical impossibility in terms of accomodating 450 pax. Not to mention of other aspects of sheer idiocy of such a configuration.

[Edited 2006-06-05 22:15:26]
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 23):
but the added weight reducing range could be a real deal killer. What good is it to buy a bed if you are going to be awaken for a tech stop?

Oh, I agree with you on that (even if I personally wouldn't care).

However, I think this poster has a point -

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 19):
I have made this point before, yes you add weight in the attic with the suites, but you remove weight by not needing high end FC seats on the main deck, all they need average seats in combo with the suites. It is a trade off, not simply the addition of more weight. High end seats are very very heavy.

You could have standard normal J class seats without any of the flat bed business with the cocoon's and all the rest of it. Passengers could sit here at takeoff, eat there, and then go upstairs to bed. Those that didn't want to pay a bed premium are stuck with the J service and seat that doesn't turn into a bed. Or F, or whichever class you want to do it for...
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 25):
However, I think this poster has a point -

I agree he has a point. There will be some offset of the added weight in the attic from not needing high end FC seats on the main deck. I doubt if it's a total 1:1 offset though.

Anyway, it's all speculation since we don't have any hard numbers. We only have the news article that says there will be a performance penalty from the addition of sky suites.
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Considers Options For 747-8

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:59 pm

Personally if given the choice between a full suite at my seat like the AA, BA, EK, etc. F product, or a J seat and then having to climb stairs to go to a bunk, and have to take all my things, and worry about when food was coming, etc, I'd choose the "standard" F suite.

So then you are asking if a J customer or Y+ customer would pay extra to have a bed. Well a J customer is likely getting a "slope flat" seat on the plane already, so would he/she pay for that and a berth?

Not likely. So now it's just down to Y+ pax. They may buy a berth, but probably not enough of them, and if it costs less than a J seat, then they would lose money on the proposition while adding extra weight to the plane since some otherwise J pax might choose the Y+ w/ berth option instead.

If it costs more than J, then you have to provide J type meals and service to the Y+ pax who buys the berth but not to the Y+ pax who doesn't.

Once you really examine who would be a candidate for the berth, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

A lounge would make more sense if they use the space, as it probably wouldn't weigh that much, but there's no revenue in a lounge. Maybe a duty free shop like Airbus was suggesting for the lower deck of the A380 (eating into cargo area)?
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