airbuspilot
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A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:49 am

There are some rumours floating around on the net that an international carrier last week had a dual engine flame out somewhere over china on a brand new A330.

The incident happend in heavy rain during descent...

Any more news available?
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:16 am

Hey,

I really doubt this, as the Press and ofcourse members of A.net would be on to it within 5 hours of the incident. Not much get's past the people in here.

Thanks
Mike
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:20 am

Have to agree with DogFighter here I would think that we would have heard about it. If it is true though and no one on A.Net happened to have posted it then I'm going to be excited to hear what happened, keep us posted if you do find anything out.

~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
dtw9
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:14 am

Here you go,


DATE: 01.06.2006 LOCAL TIME: evening LOCATION: Shanghai-Intl AP (ZSPD) COUNTRY: China
AIRLINE: Qatar AW TYPE: Airbus A330-202 REGISTRATION: A7-ACJ C/N: 746 AGE: 0 y + 1 m
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: Shanghai TO: Doha VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: - CREW: -
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor / none
After take off, the aircraft suffered a double engine flameout due to unknown reasons. However the pilots managed to restart both engines and returned safely to Shanghai.
SOURCE(S): PPRuNe
 
ABQopsHP
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:19 am

Holy cow! Reminds me of the AirTransat A330 incident over the Atlantic, back in 2001.
ABQ ops, Cactus 202 requesting you order 5 Green Chile Chicken stew for us to p/u on arrival. ;)
 
YWG
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:07 pm

All I can say is wow....that's at the point where you start to get a little scared.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 4):
Holy cow! Reminds me of the AirTransat A330 incident over the Atlantic, back in 2001.

Or of Pan Am 759 in Kenner, LA back in July 9, 1982. All 3 engines were "snuffed out" when the aircraft flew into a "wall of water". The Cockpit Data Recorded indicated the pilots tried to restart the engines without success, killing all but one lap child on board and eight poor souls sitting in their homes.

I drove by heading home about 3 minutes after it went down. While I couldn't see the crash site, the flames and smoke were beyond anything I have ever seen before.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
ua777222
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:53 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stal Guillaume



Not even an offical pic of the aircraft in the DB. Wow, must be that new.

Best.

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
KLM685
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:57 pm

So this means that such severe rain probably caused both engines to flame out?! :S It must have been VERY scary

I wonder what was their altittude in order to make such a succesful engine restart.
KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:59 pm

Was there Turbulence/Bad weather.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
kaddyuk
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:36 pm

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 8):
I wonder what was their altittude in order to make such a succesful engine restart.

Altitude doesnt helps start engines, airspeed does... However if you've got altitude, you can turn that into airspeed if required...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
KLM685
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:56 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 10):
However if you've got altitude, you can turn that into airspeed if required...

precisely that's my question.
KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
 
pilotaydin
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:33 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 10):
Altitude doesnt helps start engines, airspeed does... However if you've got altitude, you can turn that into airspeed if required...

you're contradicting yourself....


I don't know the procedure in the Airbus, in the 737 you don't nose dive whatsoever in a double flamout, you set clean speed for max glide, and if your N2 is below 15% then you use a started assist to restart the puppies, otherwise you can switch your ignition to both and raise the start levers....

I don't know what the equivilant of continuous ignition is in the bus, but if you don't turn it on during heavy precip you get high ice build up, or flameout
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
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AirIndia
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:33 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 10):
Altitude doesnt helps start engines, airspeed does

How does airspeed help restart engines?
 
RichardPrice
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:38 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 13):
How does airspeed help restart engines?

Spins the fan and compressors.
 
TedTAce
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:39 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 13):
How does airspeed help restart engines?

Less energy required to get them going again.
This space intentionally left blank
 
turbulence
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Was there Turbulence/Bad weather.
regds
MEL

I was not there, I swear it...  Wink

Anyway, it must be very scary... But, if the report is accurated, there's no word (hehehe... number?) on occupants, was it a test flight? a delivery one? positional?

Enjoy turbulence!!!
 
flywithjohn
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:58 pm

This only a joke no need to start one tghe A and B wars but thats why I don't like Airbus AIrcraft that being said if the weather was so bad I wonder why they were not gorund delayed?
Always Blue Sky's.....
 
buckfifty
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 10):
Altitude doesnt helps start engines, airspeed does... However if you've got altitude, you can turn that into airspeed if required...

That's incorrect, actually. Air density at higher altitudes usually will prevent a windmilling start. However, depending on the temperature, it can still be done. Yet windmilling starts usually have a max guaranteed altitude, for the 330 it is somewhere in the region of 28,000'. So the lower you are, the better chance of you getting a relight, with the ignition on and a high airspeed (300kts +)

The other option in this scenario is an APU assisted start (since there are no engines operating). However, APU as a bleed supply on the 330 is ineffective above 22,500'. Therefore, if the windmill start is ineffective (i.e. in heavy rain), then you'll have to go even lower to get things going again.
 
olympicbis
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:10 pm

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 17):
thats why I don't like Airbus AIrcraft

Variants of the engines which power this kind of Airbus aircraft are often to be found on 767s and 747......
 
OHLHD
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:11 pm

Quoting Turbulence (Reply 16):
Anyway, it must be very scary... But, if the report is accurated, there's no word (hehehe... number?) on occupants, was it a test flight? a delivery one? positional?

It was a pax QR flight .
 
flywithjohn
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:12 pm

Quoting Olympicbis (Reply 19):
Variants of the engines which power this kind of Airbus aircraft are often to be found on 767s and 747......

refer to line before that

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 17):
This only a joke no need to start one the A and B wars
Always Blue Sky's.....
 
buckfifty
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:19 pm

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 17):
This only a joke no need to start one tghe A and B wars but thats why I don't like Airbus AIrcraft that being said if the weather was so bad I wonder why they were not gorund delayed?

If one does not turn on ignition during torrential rain, no matter what the aircraft, it will flame out. Boeings, Gulftreams, Airbii, all included. However, this is not to say that what happened actually was for this reason. But pilot error certainly cannot be discounted.

That said, on the 330, if a flame out is detected and the engines are running, the ignition will turn themselves on automatically. An automatically relight will commence regardless of pilot actions. That said, it's best to put the switch to IGN just to confirm that an auto start will happen.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 12):
I don't know the procedure in the Airbus, in the 737 you don't nose dive whatsoever in a double flamout, you set clean speed for max glide, and if your N2 is below 15% then you use a started assist to restart the puppies, otherwise you can switch your ignition to both and raise the start levers....

I don't know what the equivilant of continuous ignition is in the bus, but if you don't turn it on during heavy precip you get high ice build up, or flameout

We'll only go back to green dot (best glide) speed if the windmill assisted relight doesn't work. Generally speaking, if you have four engines (on the 340), it is much better to attempt a windmill start, as you can get all four going at the same time. With a bleed assisted start, not only will you use significant altitude, but bleed from the APU is generally only sufficient to start one engine at a time.

With two engines, I would use the same procedure. However, the aircraft should have been pointed at the nearest airport by this time.
 
flywithjohn
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 22):
If one does not turn on ignition during torrential rain, no matter what the aircraft, it will flame out. Boeings, Gulftreams, Airbii, all included.

I learned the same things in school like I said read the first four words I personally don't mind airbus of boeing I like McDonnell Douglas so I like my MD10 MD11 but not so much the DC10
I wonder why I had to say it you just can't do that in todays world somebody always takes it serious.
Always Blue Sky's.....
 
buckfifty
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:29 pm

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 23):
I learned the same things in school like I said read the first four words I personally don't mind airbus of boeing I like McDonnell Douglas so I like my MD10 MD11 but not so much the DC10
I wonder why I had to say it you just can't do that in todays world somebody always takes it serious.

Just stating the facts, really, not intended to rebuke you in anyway.

That said, however, it was really quite a lame joke. It has absolutely no relevancy whatsoever to what is being discussed here. Perhaps some tact would have been useful in order not to get yourself flamed.
 
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solnabo
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:36 pm

Air Transat´s A330 ran out of fuel, not a flame out, the world longest glider flight on a pax a/c to the Azores

Micke//SWE  wave 
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
aerosol
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:40 pm

Spec: Contaminated jet fuel? I heard they have issues with this problems in China.
 
flywithjohn
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:46 pm

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 24):
Perhaps some tact would have been useful in order not to get yourself flamed.

not rebuke just trying to keep a A&B war from starting besides nothing wrong with a good flaming but still why did they take off if the weather was so bad.
Always Blue Sky's.....
 
David L
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 17):
This only a joke no need to start one tghe A and B wars but thats why I don't like Airbus AIrcraft



Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 23):
like I said read the first four words

So the joke is that you don't like Airbus aircraft because they can suffer the same fate as other types? I don't get it.

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 24):
That said, however, it was really quite a lame joke. It has absolutely no relevancy whatsoever to what is being discussed here.

 checkmark 
 
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breiz
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:56 pm

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 22):
Airbii

BuckFifty, just for the fun of it, the latin plural of Airbus would have been Airbi (if second declension) or Airbus (if fourth declension).
Airbii would be the plural of Airbius.
 
buckfifty
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:01 pm

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 27):
not rebuke just trying to keep a A&B war from starting besides nothing wrong with a good flaming but still why did they take off if the weather was so bad.

We have very little information as to what the circumstances were. Torrential downpours don't have to happen around the airfield, they could happen enroute. In fact, there is no indication that this was a weather related incident in the first place.

For them to have time for a relight means that they were at altitude. That means that most likely they would have been some distance away from Pudong for this to happen.

What is your company SOP in regards to bad weather? I'd like to hear it...
 
David L
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting Breiz (Reply 29):
BuckFifty, just for the fun of it, the latin plural of Airbus would have been Airbi (if second declension) or Airbus (if fourth declension).
Airbii would be the plural of Airbius.

Yes, one of my pet peeves, too! Same with virus - viri.

Sorry, BuckFifty, it didn't devalue your posts, certainly not as much as very poor punctuation does (  Smile ). I must look really grumpy this morning but I'm not.  Smile
 
buckfifty
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:04 pm

Oh no, not at all. I don't ever profess to be a grammatical genius. I do pride myself at never having to use the a.net spellchecker however...
 
David L
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:07 pm

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 32):
Oh no, not at all. I don't ever profess to be a grammatical genius. I do pride myself at never having to use the a.net spellchecker however...

Just to be clear, my punctuation comment wasn't aimed at you.  Smile
 
JBOND
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:11 pm

s/n 746 is A7-ACI, not ACJ
http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=488245
seen last sunday at MAN too.
A7-ACJ is s/n 760 in full n/c (never fly)
 
David L
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:11 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 12):
I don't know what the equivilant of continuous ignition is in the bus

I asked that question in another thread...

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 22):
on the 330, if a flame out is detected and the engines are running, the ignition will turn themselves on automatically. An automatically relight will commence regardless of pilot actions. That said, it's best to put the switch to IGN just to confirm that an auto start will happen.

... and now I know the amswer. Cheers!
 
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United787
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:27 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 6):
Or of Pan Am 759 in Kenner, LA back in July 9, 1982. All 3 engines were "snuffed out" when the aircraft flew into a "wall of water". The Cockpit Data Recorded indicated the pilots tried to restart the engines without success,

From the aviation safety network on PanAm 759:

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The airplane's encounter during the lift-off and initial climb phase of flight with a micro-burst induced windshear which imposed a downdraft and a decreasing headwind, the effects of which the pilot would have had difficulty recognizing and reacting to in time for the airplane's descent to be arrested before its impact with trees. Contributing to the accident was the limited capability of current ground based low level windshear detection technology to provide definitive guidance for controllers and pilots for use in avoiding low level wind shear encounters."

Nothing about a triple flameout. And since the AirTransat A330 incident ran out of gas, does anyone know of a commercial aircraft that has had a shut down of all its engines in flight?
 
a380heavy
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 23):
I learned the same things in school like I said read the first four words I personally don't mind airbus of boeing I like McDonnell Douglas so I like my MD10 MD11 but not so much the DC10
I wonder why I had to say it you just can't do that in todays world somebody always takes it serious.

And the english translation of this is what exactly? - I think we need a grammar check as well as a spell check on this forum.  Smile
Flown in:732,733,734,738,742,752,763,772,F27,DC9,MD-11,A300,A332,ATR72,DHC-6,Bell206,C172,Auster,PA-28
 
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breiz
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:33 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 36):
does anyone know of a commercial aircraft that has had a shut down of all its engines in flight?

This is one of several occurrences linked to volcanoes:
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...ews%2fScience%2fTopics%2fVolcanoes

Here is another one:
"In June 1982 a British Airways 747 suffered severe damage and had all four engines flame out upon encountering ash from Mt Galunggung in Indonesia, descending to 12 000 feet before being able to restart some engines and make an emergency landing in Jakarta."

[Edited 2006-06-05 13:37:12]
 
killjoy
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:43 pm

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 23):
wonder why I had to say it you just can't do that in todays world somebody always takes it serious.

Perhaps people would take your "jokes" less seriously if you learned to write legibly instead of having everyone spend a minute interpreting each sentence.
 
David L
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:54 pm

Just out of interest, Flywithjohn, on what aircraft type are you an "FO for major cargo company"?
 
kaddyuk
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 12):
I don't know the procedure in the Airbus, in the 737 you don't nose dive whatsoever in a double flamout, you set clean speed for max glide

Where in my reply did i say "nose dive"? I said you can exchange altitude for airspeed... the RATE at which you can do this is up to the pilot...

Nice to see the  flamed  brigade out in force
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting Breiz (Reply 29):
BuckFifty, just for the fun of it, the latin plural of Airbus would have been Airbi (if second declension) or Airbus (if fourth declension).
Airbii would be the plural of Airbius.

Airbus comes from the word "bus" which on its turn is short for the Latin word "omnibus" meaning "to everyone". As this is the dative plural of the word "omnis", technically there cannot be a plural of omnibus in Latin. But "bus isn't Latin anymore:

It started out in French in 1828 in its full form omnibus as part of the name for a new type of public transport that was open to everyone, of any social class. It was a long coach with seats down each side, which was called a voiture omnibus, a “carriage for everyone”, where omnibus is the dative plural of the Latin omnis, “all”, hence “for all”. (That classic Shakespearean stage direction, exeunt omnes, or “everybody leaves”, includes another form of the same word.)

The idea, and the word, were brought over almost immediately into England and into English. A London newsletter of 1829 noted that “The new vehicle, called the omnibus, commenced running this morning [4 July] from Paddington to the City”. As this shows, the French phrase was at once shortened (voiture was obviously foreign rubbish, but omnibus was classical and we could live with that). By 1832, it had been abbreviated further to the form we have today, bus, one of our weirder linguistic inventions, since it consists just of part of a Latin suffix, –ibus, with no root word in it at all. So immediate was the acceptance of omnibus into our language armoury that in 1831, only two years after its first use in English, Washington Irving could aim and fire it figuratively in reference to the Reform Bill: “The great reform omnibus moves but slowly”.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/omnibus.htm

Anyway, back to topic. Are there any news sources regarding the incident?
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
David L
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 41):
Where in my reply did i say "nose dive"? I said you can exchange altitude for airspeed... the RATE at which you can do this is up to the pilot...

Possibly just preventing anyone from interpreting it that way. You know what this place can be like!

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 41):
Nice to see the  flamed  brigade out in force

Guilty... but it's out of character, honestly.  Smile
 
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breiz
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 42):
Airbus comes from the word "bus" which on its turn is short for the Latin word "omnibus" meaning "to everyone".

Thanks, BuyantUkhaa, I had forgotten about the "omnibus". Good reminder.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 41):
Where in my reply did i say "nose dive"? I said you can exchange altitude for airspeed... the RATE at which you can do this is up to the pilot...

Nice to see the brigade out in force

you don't need to....is there any other way to gain airspeed without thrust, at altitude? and your reply didn't talk about rates at all..
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
David L
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 42):
Airbus comes from the word "bus" which on its turn is short for the Latin word "omnibus" meaning "to everyone". As this is the dative plural of the word "omnis", technically there cannot be a plural of omnibus in Latin. But "bus isn't Latin anymore

I agree but my view is that if someone wants to pretend "Airbus" is the nominative of a genuine noun, they shouldn't insert an extra "i". Being wrong on one count is (usually) better than being wrong on two counts but I'm not as worked up by it as I probably sound.  Smile
 
DAYflyer
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:23 pm

The A-330 is a perfectly safe aircraft, Im sure there is a logical explination.
One Nation Under God
 
MERLIN
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 18):
That's incorrect, actually. Air density at higher altitudes usually will prevent a windmilling start. However, depending on the temperature, it can still be done.

Was Kaddyuk talkin bout starting??

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 45):
you don't need to....is there any other way to gain airspeed without thrust, at altitude? and your reply didn't talk about rates at all..

Dude honestly if u r a B-737 pilot,u wwud have learnt this even before u actually start flying..wht kaddyuk really said was the basic coversion of altitude into airspeed for an aircraft..Now i agree to you on one point is that you cant do that on a B-737....BUT its just the basics he posted.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 47):
The A-330 is a perfectly safe aircraft, Im sure there is a logical explination.

well there sud be,Nobody even knw about this incident till the tread starter posted...Keep a track of the investigation before it goes out of hand too  Wink

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 45):
is there any other way to gain airspeed without thrust, at altitude

What do the gliders DO??? If he did not mean RATE, What did he mean.Sad he had to specify "RATE" for understanding.
"Aviation & Black hole carry same effect,once any where near it you're bound to get sucked in".
 
pilotaydin
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RE: A330 Dual Flame Out

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting MERLIN (Reply 48):
What do the gliders DO??? If he did not mean RATE, What did he mean.Sad he had to specify "RATE" for understanding.

if he did not mean rate? what are you talking about...he said it's not altitude that you need to start engines, it's airspeed, well how do you get the speed? by losing altitude...so how is it that the only way you can get airspeed is by altitude, AND altitude is not needed to start the engines....dont tell me this and that is sad until you can make basic sense of a contradiction...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!