KarlB737
Topic Author
Posts: 2636
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:14 am

Courtesy: Fort Worth Star-Telegram

Air Traffic to Missouri Surges Without Wright

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6724
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:48 am

Does anybody else know about this? I can't believe that fares came down and more people traveled. I thought the conventional wisdom was that DFW would be mothballed if its fragile customer base was not Federally protected from the horrible and unamerican effects of competition. Who knew?
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
jetblueatjfk
Posts: 1556
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:42 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:11 am

Well wouldn't you know, more PAX flying out of DAL when the new city opens up.

Looks like this proves that a certain ammendment needs to go and I will give you a hint, it says it is wright but it isn't.

Lol (bad joke, im bored)

B6jfk airplane 
 
incitatus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 1):
I can't believe that fares came down and more people traveled. I thought the conventional wisdom was that DFW would be mothballed if its fragile customer base was not Federally protected from the horrible and unamerican effects of competition.

It's also horrible and unAmerican to dress up the desire to continue suckling on public property as a competitive issue. When will Southwest start paying to land in the Dallas area just like any other airline?
Stop pop up ads
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 3):
It's also horrible and unAmerican to dress up the desire to continue suckling on public property as a competitive issue. When will Southwest start paying to land in the Dallas area just like any other airline?

They did not pay to land in Dallas? that's news to me  banghead .

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
jetblueatjfk
Posts: 1556
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:42 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 3):
It's also horrible and unAmerican to dress up the desire to continue suckling on public property as a competitive issue. When will Southwest start paying to land in the Dallas area just like any other airline?

When will Dallas and Washington realise that this law is out dated and has no point but to favor AA. Not very laissez faire to me.  Sad

B6jfk airplane 
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 3):
When will Southwest start paying to land in the Dallas area just like any other airline?

You realize that the differences in landing fees/rents between DAL and DFW is based on the expenses of the respective airports, right? Folks that think that DAL's $0.55/100 rate should be increased to match DFW's $4.94/1000 to "level the playing field" just don't understand how things work.

The only valid reason for SWA paying $4.94/1000 would be if Southwest was serving DFW, and as has been said many times before, that's not going to happen, especially when there's a less expensive $0.55/1000 alternative available that also lets the Southwest make the best use of its other infrastructure at Love.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
You realize that the differences in landing fees/rents between DAL and DFW is based on the expenses of the respective airports, right? Folks that think that DAL's $0.55/100 rate should be increased to match DFW's $4.94/1000 to "level the playing field" just don't understand how things work.

The only valid reason for SWA paying $4.94/1000 would be if Southwest was serving DFW, and as has been said many times before, that's not going to happen, especially when there's a less expensive $0.55/1000 alternative available that also lets the Southwest make the best use of its other infrastructure at Love.

Well, If Dallas Love wants to increase its landing fee they are more than welcomed right? Why would WN pay $1/1000 if they are charged $0.55/1000?

One more thing, Love is only allowed to serve a very limited market. Why would they charge a high price if it is the case? Once the market opens up I would guess Dallas Love will be able to increase its price.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:47 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 7):
Well, If Dallas Love wants to increase its landing fee they are more than welcomed right? Why would WN pay $1/1000 if they are charged $0.55/1000?

One more thing, Love is only allowed to serve a very limited market. Why would they charge a high price if it is the case? Once the market opens up I would guess Dallas Love will be able to increase its price.

Tom in NO (MSY airport) has discussed this previously (so this is all from my memory, and I'll gladly defer to him if he chimes in here), but in a nutshell, airports can't just set fees/rates willy-nilly or otherwise whatever they feel like. Fees/rates are based on an airport's projected budget is (including big projects like international terminals and Skylink systems) and then set accordingly to cover them. If the fees/rates produce more income (than costs) at year's end, the overage is refunded/rebated/credited to the users. If the fees/rates produce less income (than costs) the users make up the difference. In theory, it's not all that different from someone setting their W-4 IRS withholding so that just the right amount gets taken out of their regular paycheck so they don't owe or get a refund at the end of the year.

If Love was going to build some capital-intensive project(s), they'd be justified in raising their fees/rates to cover the anticpated costs from $0.55/1000 to $2.00/1000 or $3.00/100 or whatever it would cost. They can't just raise them because they "feel like it" or because City Council folks think Love's fees/rates should be closer to DFW's fees/rates or the fees/rates in Timbuktu.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 8):
Tom in NO (MSY airport) has discussed this previously (so this is all from my memory, and I'll gladly defer to him if he chimes in here), but in a nutshell, airports can't just set fees/rates willy-nilly or otherwise whatever they feel like. Fees/rates are based on an airport's projected budget is (including big projects like international terminals and Skylink systems) and then set accordingly to cover them.

So what is the problem with Incitatus then? Clearly WN does not leech anything am I right?

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:01 pm

I've been doing some thinking about Wright and asking myself if Wright really is right. What if MDW could only serve a 9 state region? What if all passengers leaving the state of California had to do so from LAX? BUR, ONT, LGB and SNA could only serve intra California? What if all U.S. citizens traveling to Mexico must transit through DFW? All travel to South America through ATL? All travel to Asia through SFO? Think about all the redundant airport facilities that could be eliminated. What if legacies were granted exclusive authority to fly to a specific continent? Think of all the jobs that could be saved. Maybe the world of Wright is a Utopia I just haven't been able to see.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 9):
So what is the problem with Incitatus then? Clearly WN does not leech anything am I right?

You'd have to ask him directly to be sure, but it appears that he thinks it's somehow "unfair" that Southwest pays fees that are less than fees would be at DFW. Doesn't matter that AA and CO pay those same rates at Love, but theirs seem to be overlooked as an issue. It's not as if Southwest paid $0.55 at Love while AA and CO at Love paid more...

If I located my 5,000 SF business where the rents were going for X/per SF, and my competitor had an identical 5,000 SF business in a part of town commanding rents of 8X/per SF, it'd be a pretty weak argument that I should set my prices based on my competitor's 8X overhead versus my actual X overhead just to "level the playing field." If my competitor want's to open a 5,000 SF shop across the street from me and enjoy the same overhead costs, more power to him/her. If my competitor insists I open a 5,000 SF shop across from his high rent location, I'm going to politely tell him/her to pound sand, since that's a decision that I get to make for my business, just like he/she gets to make decisions for their business.

I'm truly puzzled sometimes why this is such a conceptual problem for some folks...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 11):
You'd have to ask him directly to be sure, but it appears that he thinks it's somehow "unfair" that Southwest pays fees that are less than fees would be at DFW. Doesn't matter that AA and CO pay those same rates at Love, but theirs seem to be overlooked as an issue. It's not as if Southwest paid $0.55 at Love while AA and CO at Love paid more...

I think it just means DFW runs much less efficiently than Love. A little competition might bring the cost down a little bit  Wink

I agree with you OPNLguy. Landing fees depends on the Airport, and does not be the same all over the board. We are not going to compare the landing fee, say, in Baraboo, WI to JFK's. I am sure airlines/airport users in Baraboo do not "continue suckling on public property"  Wink

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
Rottamo
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 6):
Folks that think that DAL's $0.55/100 rate should be increased to match DFW's $4.94/1000

What does that rate means? Is it per passenger or based on weight of plane or what?

How big difference this causes to ticket price Dallas vs. other airfield?
1%, 5%, 10% ?

I am curious.

Rottamo
 
NWDC10
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:15 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 5):
but to favor AA.

Bingo! Like i said earlier this is total BS. They need to just open DAL and let the "Real Competition Begin". Sounds like continue corruption from our Law Makers to favor AA. You don't do anything to "favor" any one or "take sides" to anyone. Robert NWDC10
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:56 pm

Landing fees are based on X-amount per each 1,000 lbs of an aircraft's maximum structural landing weight. It matters not whether the aircraft is empty or full on a given flight, the rate is based on what the aircraft is capable of landing at.

For SWA, the 737-300, 737-500, and 737-700 have max landing weights of 114,000 lbs, 110,000 lbs, and 128,000 lbs respectively. Multiplying 114, 110, or 128 by either $0.55 or $4.94 gives the total landing fees for DAL and DFW, respectively, for each aircraft type SWA flies...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Rottamo
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:21 pm

OK. About $5 -$7 per passenger (assuming 50%-70% load factor).
That's quite much if fares are around $80 - $120.

Now I understand why average fare to
Dallas - Kansas City has been around $233 (461 miles) vs.
Dallas - Harlinger $129 (461 miles).

Why this landing fee is so high in the Ft. Worth ?
Have they done big investments? If so, when these investment will have been paid? Or is it just more expensive airport to run?

Rottamo
 
Rottamo
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:59 pm

BWT. According to
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/domestic-competition/3Q04.pdf
and
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/X-5...le_files/consumerairfarereport.htm

When WN entered to Philadelphia fares went (one way average fare):
Q3/2003 $210
Q3/2004 $113
Q3/2005 $118

and passenger numbers went
Q3/2003 2,003
Q3/2004 3,049
Q3/2005 3,249

So 40%-60% increase is exactly what we should expect.
Q3/2005 passenger numbers for
Kansas City 711
St. Louis 774

-> about 750 new daily passenger between these cities and Dallas.
In the future there will be about 2300 passengers. If we use current routes as a yardstick then there will be 12-16 new flights out of town from the Love vs. current 8.

So it seems that it is highly likely that WN will add 2-3 flights to each route in the future and may be even more.

My 2 cents.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting Rottamo (Reply 16):
Why this landing fee is so high in the Ft. Worth ?
Have they done big investments? If so, when these investment will have been paid? Or is it just more expensive airport to run?

AT DFW, it's largely the International terminal (very fancy) and Skylink system (elevated train between all the terminals), both very expensive projects. TPA built a new international terminal about the same time, and I think theirs cost about half as much, and while not as fancy as DFW's, it's still functional, and in today's airline revenue environment, more cost-effective. Airlines don't have unlimited budgets like they did back during the days of a regulated airline industry, yet some airports still seem to think they do.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
SMUDFWflyer
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:37 am

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 11):
If my competitor want's to open a 5,000 SF shop across the street from me and enjoy the same overhead costs, more power to him/her

That's the argument that many pro-Wright folks present. Neither AA nor any other airline could possibly open up an equal-sized operation to WN at Love right now, with or without Wright in place. WN has a significant competitive advantage at an airport that over 60% of metroplex travelers find more convenient.

If Wright were to be repealed, would the Love Field Master Plan remain in place? If so, WN would really have to be selective on which routes outside of the current perimeter would be served nonstop. I would guess MDW, LAX, OAK, DEN, BWI, TPA, FLL, BNA, PHX, and LAS for starters. AA would likely respond with flights of their own, which would max out DAL's capacity really quickly.

Back to the topic of this thread, I am flying DFW-STL-DFW in July on AA, so I guess I will be contributing to the surge in air travel to Missouri (just not in the way WN would like).

On a lighter note, has anyone seen the new Stop and Think commercial?
 
Tiger119
Posts: 1593
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: Air Traffic To Missouri Surges Without Wright

Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting SMUDFWflyer (Reply 19):
I would guess MDW, LAX, OAK, DEN, BWI, TPA, FLL, BNA, PHX, and LAS for starters.

- Not IND, SDF or CMH?  scratchchin 

Quoting SMUDFWflyer (Reply 19):
On a lighter note, has anyone seen the new Stop and Think commercial?

- Is it yet another funny WN commercial?  sarcastic 

David
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!

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