chrisjake
Posts: 895
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Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:19 am

i've heard in the past that Southwest is not happy with the landing fees at CLE. is this the sole reason they havent expanded there in quite some time?

it seems to me that markets like LAS and numerous Florida cities could support nonstop service on WN. CO has i think 4 nonstops CLE-LAS while WN only has 1, and you can pretty much call LAS a WN hub, even though they dont like to call it that. why not beef up that route with at least 1 more nonstop. IIRC, CLE-MCO was served nonstop at one time by WN. what happened to that flight?


chris
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:39 am

Well they serve LAS PHX MDW STL BNA BWI all from CLE wich isn't bad but for a bigger city liek CLE I would expect more. I am sure they will add a day time LAS-CLE soon enough to get some good cash from the route some more but they probably are going to hold out until CLE caves in and gives them a break. This might be a while...

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N702ML
Posts: 406
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Chrisjake (Thread starter):
CLE-MCO was served nonstop at one time by WN. what happened to that flight?

I don't know that that flight was ever done on a regular basis. I am from CLE and started my airline career with Southwest in CLE...so I kind of keep track of Southwest service there.

I know that for a while Southwest operated nonstops to MCO but they were actually charter flights using our aircraft.

I do not even recall ever having Saturday only service to MCO.
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of Southwest Airlines.
 
chrisjake
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting N702ML (Reply 2):
I do not even recall ever having Saturday only service to MCO.

thats what it was....Sat only.

my OAG in Feb 2003 shows flight 2471 leaving CLE at 0810 arriving MCO 1040, flown with a 733. was this a weekly charter??

chris
 
Falcon84
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:13 am

The reason, as posted in the Cleveland Plain Dealer a few years back, as well as the Cleveland Free Times, is indeed the landing fees. They're pretty outrageous in CLE, and it almost drove CO out of CLE-it would have if former Mayor Mike White had run and won another term about 4 years ago.

WN from everything I've read in the past, just breaks even in CLE, and it simply isn't worth expanding the service they have here.

Fees, I believe, will be going down in the next few years, and it's a good be if they do, it'll spur some growth from both WN and CO.

One reason, besides availibility, you don't see a CO 762 on LGW, with the added cargo capacity, is the landing fees. They're just ridiculous. I'm not sure what they are right now, but they're very high.
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N702ML
Posts: 406
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Chrisjake (Reply 3):
my OAG in Feb 2003 shows flight 2471 leaving CLE at 0810 arriving MCO 1040, flown with a 733. was this a weekly charter??

Okay so we DID do Sat Only flights for a while. My mistake. Sat Only service comes and goes on so many routes its hard to keep track of.

No...the CLE-MCO charters I am referring to...were much earlier than that. Like...1996-1997.

We also had CLE-LAS charters at the time. I believe those flights operated as a redeye LAS-CLE-ROC on Friday night and then returned ROC-CLE-LAS on Saturday. We checked bags in at the Southwest counter, but the charter operator actually assigned seats at one of the gate podiums.

I also recall that the people who got assigned to the "Lounge seats" got free drinks on the flight because the charter company felt they would be uncomfortable on long flights.
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of Southwest Airlines.
 
goCOgo
Posts: 680
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:44 am

The fact that WN only has 4 gates can't help, either, and I doubt they want to divide their operation from the end of B the common use gates on A.

Quoting Chrisjake (Thread starter):
CO has i think 4 nonstops CLE-LAS

Indeed, using the 757-300 on some, the highest capacity domestic equipment CO is using for scheduled service these days. There will be twice daily 753s on the LAS-CLE segment upcoming. With CO filling those, I'm surprised that WN can't offer another LAS flight or 2.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
HPAEAA
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:14 am

From working at Cle, it was the landing fees that was driving away mainline traffic... that and the cost for real estate was huge, its just a very expensive airport all around, hopefully they can lower those fees and attract some new service... I know HP almost pulled out in 2003 because of the costs.
Why do I fly???
 
atlaaron
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:18 am

I am from Cleveland and for a city that certainly is not booming I think they better reconsider their fees. I did not know their fees were that out of control though, but it makes sense because I recall as soon as mayor Campbell was elected she had to fight very hard to get CO to stay.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 8):
I recall as soon as mayor Campbell was elected she had to fight very hard to get CO to stay.

That was a big part of what kept HP, when CO negotiated a reduction in landing fees, everyone else got spillover reductions...
Why do I fly???
 
iowaman
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting Chrisjake (Thread starter):
CLE-LAS while WN only has 1, and you can pretty much call LAS a WN hub, even though they dont like to call it that. why not beef up that route with at least 1 more nonstop.

Well, CLE-LAS just recently went daily n/s on WN, so I wouldn't expect to see a second daily for a while.

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 6):
The fact that WN only has 4 gates can't help, either, and I doubt they want to divide their operation from the end of B the common use gates on A.

4 gates and about 20 daily flights (a couple less I believe)? WN in CLE is no where near full utilization. WN usually can do 10 flights per gate and in some cases such as OAK 12-13 flights per gate. WN has plenty of gate space to expand in CLE.
 
joeman
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 7):
From working at Cle, it was the landing fees that was driving away mainline traffic... that and the cost for real estate was huge, its just a very expensive airport

Does anyone know why? Real estate in the area is moderate and the construction projects to date seem moderate as well in comparison to the huge expansions that have taken place elsewhere.
 
steeler83
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:52 am

How does CLE compare to PIT? Doesn't PIT have high landing fees or not as high as up in CLE?

Cleveland is losing people like Pittsburgh is, but Cleveland has about 100,000 more residents up there still. Pittsburgh is not really booming either, but in a few years the city should look a bit different from what it looks like today.

Allegheny County's population is expected to grow to over 1.3 million residents by 2020 according to the Post-Gazette and Tribune Review.

Southwest even stated that they are very happy with their service at PIT and hope to add more frequencies and destinations soon, according to both newspapers...
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CentPIT
Posts: 978
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 12):
Southwest even stated that they are very happy with their service at PIT and hope to add more frequencies and destinations soon, according to both newspapers...

I have no doubt WN will add some PIT flights soon, but it probably won't be anything major.


As for this topic, CLE I imagine is very similar to PIT with air traffic. The only thing that I see stopping WN in CLE is Continental Airlines. In the future however, I would imagine PIT will have more daily flights from WN than CLE does today. WN obviously doesn't have very much interest in CLE. Hasn't WN been serving CLE for close to ten years now? Just my opinion!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
N702ML
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:00 am

RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 13):
Hasn't WN been serving CLE for close to ten years now? Just my opinion!

Service began in February 1992. February 13, I believe. Initially there were 6 daily flights to MDW and 4 to STL.

[Edited 2006-06-07 00:27:40]
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of Southwest Airlines.
 
luvfa
Posts: 333
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:34 am

Its the landing fees in CLE that is helping the fast growth at CAK
 
steeler83
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RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 15):
Its the landing fees in CLE that is helping the fast growth at CAK

And the oppressive former US hub at PIT as well... Sorry, had to state that  Wink
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
CentPIT
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:48 am

RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 16):
And the oppressive former US hub at PIT as well... Sorry, had to state that

I think PIT is better off now than CLE! CO is keeping just enough flights out of CLE so that no other airlines really think of much expansion, especially Low Cost carriers like WN.
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
steeler83
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Why No WN Expansion In CLE?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 17):
I think PIT is better off now than CLE!

I think so, too pal. The US hub essentially kept all the LCCs at bay. FL probably would have had a stronger presence there if not for the US hub. FL started service to several markets out of PIT when the US hub was at its zenith. Destinations offered were MDW, JFK, PHL, ATL, MCO, and FLL. There was one more, but I forget which one it was. The only service that remains now of FL is ATL, MCO, and Saturday only FLL... That is quite sad...

But, that was due to the US hub. Now that it is gone, WN is in town, B6 will be here by the end of the month, O&D is considerably rising... I still wish that FL could have built up their presence a little at PIT. I guess they had a window of opportunity to do so when US closed its hub. Other airlines are starting to pounce on PIT to fill in the holes...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.