Joni
Topic Author
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:23 pm

Has anyone heard, if Airbus is already marketing the new A350 behind the scenes? It would be typical Airbus to announce the plane in Farnborough with a raft of launch orders - SQ would be an obvious candidate.
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:30 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:33 pm

So far as anyone can tell, the new A350 will be delivered to any customer who has ordered the A350 so far and any customer that orders the A350 in the future. I have no idea where the A370 came from, but apparently there's a sizeable number of a.netters that think Airbus is willing to devote an entirely new type name to a product revision.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Has anyone heard, if Airbus is already marketing the new A350 behind the scenes? It would be typical Airbus to announce the plane in Farnborough with a raft of launch orders - SQ would be an obvious candidate.

Given the lack of details out on the plane, I doubt anyone save ILFC or EK have details on the plane right now. Rembember that the A350 was launched by a no competition bid from Air Europe (and for that matter the early Primaris orders for the 787 are also sketchy... ANA and JAL were the real launch a bit later).

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 1):
So far as anyone can tell, the new A350 will be delivered to any customer who has ordered the A350 so far and any customer that orders the A350 in the future. I have no idea where the A370 came from, but apparently there's a sizeable number of a.netters that think Airbus is willing to devote an entirely new type name to a product revision.

It's been widely reported in the trade magazines that the redesign would have a different sequence. However, because of the Bilaterial trade issues, and the WTO, I actually think they will stick with the name A350 so they don't hand Boeing yet another arrow for a fairly full quiver over the trade and government aid row.
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:03 pm

Apparently, they haven't been talking to Mr. Al-Baker of QR too much, as just yesterday he was fuming:

"They've changed the rules of the game,'' Al Baker said, referring to Airbus. "They now want to build a bigger airplane, with a larger capacity, a bigger cross section and they've not yet submitted to us or given us the proposal on what this airplane will do or when it will be delivered.''

"...We as an airline have a business plan. We need to grow. And when there are delays in deliveries, we have to then rethink our fleet strategy. If they don't have their game in order, then it is their problem."


see: Qatar Airways May Drop A350 For B787 (by PanAm_DC10 Jun 5 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-06-06 16:07:59]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3208
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Has anyone heard, if Airbus is already marketing the new A350 behind the scenes?

If they aren't talking to some of their large potential customers (EK,SQ etc), then their strategic planning isn't based in reality.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 3):
"They've changed the rules of the game,'' Al Baker said, referring to Airbus. "They now want to build a bigger airplane, with a larger capacity, a bigger cross section and they've not yet submitted to us or given us the proposal on what this airplane will do or when it will be delivered.''

Al-Baker seems to be sick and tired of playing second fiddle to EK in the region.
 
mham001
Posts: 4287
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:21 pm

Its a little amusing how quick people believe planes and specs are drawn up. It doesn't happen overnight, in fact a good comprehensive strategy takes many months to come up with. If Airbus is already marketing yet another new plane with promises of granduer, my prediction is that it is as doomed as the old/new 350.
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 4):
f they aren't talking to some of their large potential customers (EK,SQ etc), then their strategic planning isn't based in reality.

Yet their best customer for the "old all-new A350," QR with up to 60 "FIRM ORDER COMMITMENTS," has been crying like a "stuck pig" for the last 2-3 weeks to anyone in the media who will listen that they've been "out of the loop" regarding information about the nascent "newest all-new A350 (A370)." Strange times indeed.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
It would be typical Airbus to announce the plane in Farnborough with a raft of launch orders - SQ would be an obvious candidate.

I don't see how that's possible. Airbus has to design the aircraft, figure out all the production and supplier issues, then go to the existing customers and see if they are still on board.

To get firm launch orders, Airbus will have to have refined engineering and performance data, and they have to know production slot availability. If it were possible to get that all figured out in just a few months, we wouldn't see the product development cycle times that we do.

Also, given the troubled and ever-changing history of the A350 program so far, I suspect most prospective customers are going to be very cautious about this latest iteration. I think most of them will absolutely insist on very precise, specific, and extremely detailed information before they even consider buying this aircraft.

I'll bet you're looking at mid 2007 before you see any firm orders.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
Joni
Topic Author
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 2):
I actually think they will stick with the name A350 so they don't hand Boeing yet another arrow for a fairly full quiver over the trade and government aid row.

I respectfully disagree with you concerning the fullness of Boeing's "free trade quiver", in particular with respect to the B787 and A350.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 6):
Its a little amusing how quick people believe planes and specs are drawn up. It doesn't happen overnight, in fact a good comprehensive strategy takes many months to come up with. If Airbus is already marketing yet another new plane with promises of granduer, my prediction is that it is as doomed as the old/new 350.

I suppose (versus "know") that the design Airbus is now going to be marketing is one that's been developed for a long time by now, but it's been the "more investment/higher efficiency" design and not the one they've been planning to produce. They must have studied making a wider, all Al-Li fuselage in detail before deciding to stick with the previous fuselage diameter. In other words, they didn't start from scratch one month ago.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 1):
So far as anyone can tell, the new A350 will be delivered to any customer who has ordered the A350 so far and any customer that orders the A350 in the future

Source please.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 4):
If they aren't talking to some of their large potential customers (EK,SQ etc), then their strategic planning isn't based in reality

This is exactly what all the fuss is about. Then they blame the customers for "Late input".

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 7):
Yet their best customer for the "old all-new A350," QR with up to 60 "FIRM ORDER COMMITMENTS," has been crying like a "stuck pig" for the last 2-3 weeks to anyone in the media who will listen that they've been "out of the loop" regarding information about the nascent "newest all-new A350 (A370)." Strange times indeed.

Gotta laugh at the whole fiasco. Bet the champaign is flowing in Chicago and Seattle.
One Nation Under God
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 10):

Boeing have less to celebrate now than they did a year ago. If this aircraft does get launched, then the 787 is not the only model that will be vunerable.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 10):
Source please.

Well what he is saying does make sense in a way. With 787 slots gone until mid 2011, there is no other alternative for airlines whom have ordered A350s. Either they wait until the new one is ready (early 2012) or buy A330, A340s (as some have) or 767s/777s.
 
airmailer
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:28 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 9):
They must have studied making a wider, all Al-Li fuselage in detail before deciding to stick with the previous fuselage diameter. In other words, they didn't start from scratch one month ago.

I would concur that they would have at least had this set of plans on the shelf, they probably just dusted them off and started plugging in plastic where ever they could.
 
grantcv
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:28 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
Boeing have less to celebrate now than they did a year ago. If this aircraft does get launched, then the 787 is not the only model that will be vunerable

I disagree here. If Airbus really commits to an aircraft that competes for the upper part of the 787 market and the 777, it leaves a gap in the lower part of the market for Boeing to exploit (where the A300/A310/A330 are). At the time the Airbus aircraft comes to market, the upper part should be well saturated and the lower part should be open. Once the US majors recover (hopefully) and they and others start looking for 752/762/A300 replacements, Boeing will have the answer, Airbus won't.

And on top of that, it ties Airbus up with a more ambitious program to follow on the A380, leaving Boeing to lead ahead with the 737RS program, which could result in a redo of the A350 fiasco.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
Well what he is saying does make sense in a way. With 787 slots gone until mid 2011, there is no other alternative for airlines whom have ordered A350s. Either they wait until the new one is ready (early 2012) or buy A330, A340s (as some have) or 767s/777s

I was just looking for his source to read it for myself.
One Nation Under God
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 9):
I respectfully disagree with you concerning the fullness of Boeing's "free trade quiver", in particular with respect to the B787 and A350.

Of course you do  Wink

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 13):

I disagree here. If Airbus really commits to an aircraft that competes for the upper part of the 787 market and the 777, it leaves a gap in the lower part of the market for Boeing to exploit (where the A300/A310/A330 are). At the time the Airbus aircraft comes to market, the upper part should be well saturated and the lower part should be open. Once the US majors recover (hopefully) and they and others start looking for 752/762/A300 replacements, Boeing will have the answer, Airbus won't.

Which is a important point. Unless Airbus can convience the US carriers that they need to upsize their entire fleet (which the overwhelming trends has been smaller - no 744, no 757 in favor of the narrowbodies A318/319/737/8/9s) they will be out of luck on this one.

Quoting Joni (Reply 9):
I suppose (versus "know") that the design Airbus is now going to be marketing is one that's been developed for a long time by now, but it's been the "more investment/higher efficiency" design and not the one they've been planning to produce. They must have studied making a wider, all Al-Li fuselage in detail before deciding to stick with the previous fuselage diameter. In other words, they didn't start from scratch one month ago.

Look at how well that served Boeing with the 745/6 and the 747X.

ILFC and EK know what they were doing. They spoke up because they beleived Airbus was going to commit to the wrong model. It appears to have (rightly - IMHO) created a bit of a panic.

In addition there is also the logistics problems - composites are in short demand, titanium is expensive, and Airbus has pesky political problems even deciding where to build the plane.
 
Zeus419
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:04 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:44 am

IMHO -- It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that there could be two or even three distinct designations -- i.e. A350 for the 250-300 seat market, and an A360 and/or A370 for the larger segment(s) -- going up to 400+ seats.

I think that offering a family along the same lines as A330/A340, using common technology/systems would be worth considering (but with wing-area, fuselage length, and engine thrust optimised for the missions).

. . . and maybe this could even mean a new 440 seat aircraft powered by four GEnx (or four Trent 1000s) at the very top end to take on the B747-800, and fill the gap in the Airbus product line, at around the same time that the 650-seat A380-900 stretch is offered.

[Edited 2006-06-06 17:45:46]
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 9):
I suppose (versus "know") that the design Airbus is now going to be marketing is one that's been developed for a long time by now, but it's been the "more investment/higher efficiency" design and not the one they've been planning to produce. They must have studied making a wider, all Al-Li fuselage in detail before deciding to stick with the previous fuselage diameter. In other words, they didn't start from scratch one month ago.

I think you're really grasping at straws there Joni. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest Airbus has had parallel design plans all along. I think that's just pure fantasy on your part.

If that was the case, why didn't they present those proposals to AC, NW, QF, and all the rest when it was perfectly obvious that the A350 was coming up short time after time? What you're saying here is that Airbus has lost tens of billions in orders that they might have won if they'd presented the "other plans". It makes no sense at all.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 13):
US majors recover (hopefully) and they and others start looking for 752/762/A300 replacements, Boeing will have the answer, Airbus won't.

The only US major that airbus would have a chance with would be United. NW have gone for the 787, US for the A350. CO, DL and AA are boeing-only airlines. Its quite possible that neither of these airlines will ever order from airbus again. CO and if im not mistaken DL have idealogical exclusivity agreements with Boeing, only legalities have prented this from going on paper in the past.
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 8):
Also, given the troubled and ever-changing history of the A350 program so far, I suspect most prospective customers are going to be very cautious about this latest iteration. I think most of them will absolutely insist on very precise, specific, and extremely detailed information before they even consider buying this aircraft.

I'll bet you're looking at mid 2007 before you see any firm orders.

After all, Tim Clark of EK urged Airbus in May:

...not to be rushed into freezing the specifications on the A350 in a bid to cut the 787’s head start.

“The airline community has made it clear to Airbus that the 787 is the better aircraft and therefore it should not be down to us to tell them the risks of continuing with an airliner that is not the best. With fuel prices as they are, we need these guys to push their research and development as far as possible. If they do that, you will find people will wait.”


http://81.144.183.107/Articles/2006/...+integrate+A350+technology+on.html
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
OldAeroGuy
Posts: 3208
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 7):
Yet their best customer for the "old all-new A350," QR with up to 60 "FIRM ORDER COMMITMENTS," has been crying like a "stuck pig" for the last 2-3 weeks to anyone in the media who will listen that they've been "out of the loop" regarding information about the nascent "newest all-new A350 (A370)."

Maybe Airbus doesn't consider QR quite as important as EK and SQ.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:06 am

Airbus is no doubt polling their current operators (A330/A340) and potential operators (A350) on what they want to see in the plane.

Since only a few of each have said they wanted a bigger plane (and QR wasn't one of them), Airbus may indeed be trying to find a more middle-ground solution then the 777-sized "A370" we keep tossing about here.

If RR (and/or GE) have stated they can supply higher-thrust engines in the Trent 1700 (and GEnx) families, Airbus might be trying to keep the A350 design as is and just stretch it out to A340-600 levels to get the capacity (at 8 abreast) some of their customers are demanding. This would allow them to cover the A330 and A342/A343 markets while leaving the A345/A346 to soldier on against the 772LR/773ER. Yes, they're losing that war overall, but they're still winning sales battles and that might be enough until they either ressurrect the A340E program or eventually build a large twin to fight the 773/Y3/748.

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 13):
If Airbus really commits to an aircraft that competes for the upper part of the 787 market and the 777, it leaves a gap in the lower part of the market for Boeing to exploit (where the A300/A310/A330 are).

In addition to having an advantage at the lower end of the widebody market with the 787 should Airbus indeed launch a 777-sized model as the new one, it also allows Boeing to scale Y1 up to the lower end of the 787-8, minimizing the capacity gap. Airbus, on the other hand, would have a large gap between the largest A320RS and smallest "A370", just as they do now between the largest A340 and smallest A380.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 14002
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 9):
They must have studied making a wider, all Al-Li fuselage in detail before deciding to stick with the previous fuselage diameter. In other words, they didn't start from scratch one month ago.

As you stated, that is your supposition. My supposition would be that the higher-ups said we don't want to spend a lot of money on this project, so you must re-use the A330/A340 tooling and production line. As an engineer, I feel it'd be highly unlikely that they would do two detailed studies. I think at best they'd have done a conceptual study of the alternatives, and as I said above, that study would have been squashed by the higher-ups controlling the budget.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 2):
ANA and JAL were the real launch a bit later

ANA was the launch customer in April 2004 (firmed July 2004), not Primaris.

NZ quickly followed with 2 (firmed August 2004). Then First Choice and Blue Panorama, who both firmed their orders so they aren't vapor.

Not sure where you got your timeline, but Primaris (5th, october 2004) and JAL (6th, december 2004) both came later, with of course Primaris never to be firmed and JAL firmed in 2005.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
787engineer
Posts: 545
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:08 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 9):
I suppose (versus "know") that the design Airbus is now going to be marketing is one that's been developed for a long time by now, but it's been the "more investment/higher efficiency" design and not the one they've been planning to produce. They must have studied making a wider, all Al-Li fuselage in detail before deciding to stick with the previous fuselage diameter. In other words, they didn't start from scratch one month ago.

Both Airbus and Boeing are constantly doing studies on the 'next version' of each plane in their current product line, and also studying new niches or markets. I'm sure they studied making a wider fuselage, but rough dimensions and surfaces are easy to create. AFAIK new wings, empennage, etc were made during the 7E7 days every other week, and the internal parts were 'morphed' to fit the new lofts. But the hard (and time consuming) part comes from engineering the structure and going through all the load cycles to make sure the structure will hold up. No airplane starts from scratch, each manufacturer has entire libraries full of previous studies. For all intents and purposes the new wider A350 would be starting from the beginning.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 10):
Gotta laugh at the whole fiasco. Bet the champaign is flowing in Chicago and Seattle.

Until the 787 rolls out and meets its requirements, no champagne will be flowing  Wink.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):

Boeing have less to celebrate now than they did a year ago. If this aircraft does get launched, then the 787 is not the only model that will be vunerable.

I'd be very interested to see what Airbus can come up with that will be competitive from the 788 to the 773. IMO, it simply isn't possible.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):

Well what he is saying does make sense in a way. With 787 slots gone until mid 2011, there is no other alternative for airlines whom have ordered A350s. Either they wait until the new one is ready (early 2012) or buy A330, A340s (as some have) or 767s/777s.

Unless of course Boeing opens up a second production line for the 787. . . something the higher ups have been working on for quite some time now.

Quoting Zeus419 (Reply 16):
IMHO -- It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that there could be two or even three distinct designations -- i.e. A350 for the 250-300 seat market, and an A360 and/or A370 for the larger segment(s) -- going up to 400+ seats.

I think that offering a family along the same lines as A330/A340, using common technology/systems would be worth considering (but with wing-area, fuselage length, and engine thrust optimised for the missions).

. . . and maybe this could even mean a new 440 seat aircraft powered by four GEnx (or four Trent 1000s) at the very top end to take on the B747-800, and fill the gap in the Airbus product line, at around the same time that the 650-seat A380-900 stretch is offered.

Now would these three distinct designations have different fuselage shapes/diameter? If they will be the same how much more efficient will this A350/A360/A370 family be than the A330/A340 especially when competeing against a range of aircraft from the A300/783 to the A340/772 and 773? Wouldn't this family be much like the A330/A340 except with a twin A340? There's no way you can get have a plane seat 440 in 8 abreast or even 9Y. You'd have to go 10Y or have a sizable upper deck.
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1664
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:37 am

The further the A350 gets pushed to the right, the riskier it becomes in the eyes of the Airlines that will be purchasing.

If the Airplane arrives 4+ years after the 787 without significant improvements over the Boeing, then an airline would need to look at a proven (hopefully) in service airplane vs an airplane that isn't.

Higher risk normally demands higher reward. Unless that reward is in much better operating costs, Airbus will need to provide it in other ways. If Airbus doesn't, then we might see it lose out until proven, which pushes a significant amount of orders back to 2015 or so.

Cheers...
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:20 pm

This Jim Wallace article has a lot of quotes from last week's IATA conference in Paris. The article strongly suggests that Airbus hasn't yet decided exactly what it is going to do; but that airlines which are currently in the market(among them Singapore, EK, and Qatar) are telling them that whatever they come up with, they'd better tell them quickly, and it had better be good - otherwise they will order 787s (Tim Clark of EK was his usual tactful and even-handed self Smile):-

"PARIS -- Airbus appears to be nearing a decision to tell airlines the specifics of its plans to develop an all-new commercial jetliner, possibly to be called the A370, as it seeks to blunt The Boeing Co.'s growing market dominance with the twin-engine 777 and the soon-to-be 787 Dreamliner.

"Exactly what Airbus will do is not clear, but speculation about the A370 was the buzz in Paris the last two days during the annual meeting of the International Air Transport Association.

"Airbus isn't talking, at least to reporters, but among the 260 airline members of IATA are several that want Airbus to spell out its plans -- soon. They have already ordered the A350, an airplane that Airbus is now widely expected to abandon in favor of an all-new design.

"Akbar Al Baker, Qatar's chief executive, told the Seattle P-I at the IATA meeting that Airbus will brief his airline on its plans Tuesday.

"Qatar could reconsider Boeing's 787 if Airbus is not forthcoming about its intentions for the A350 or a new design, he said.

"And Singapore Airlines Chief Executive Chew Choon Seng, in an interview in Paris, said his airline is likely to decide this month between Boeing's 787 or the Airbus offering. In early May, Singapore Airlines' board postponed a decision on what was expected to be a substantial order for the 787 to allow Airbus more time to figure out what it would do in response to criticism -- from Chew and others -- that the A350 was inadequate.

"On the sidelines of the IATA conference this week, Tim Clark, president of Emirates, the largest Arab airline, said he wanted to shout "hallelujah" when Hazy made his public A350 criticism.

"Essentially, Hazy said the A350 "sucks," Clark said, and he was right."


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/272969_iata07.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
grantcv
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:28 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:02 pm

When I was a kid, I remember asking my dad why there was no B717. He replied that the C135 was actually the B717.

If Airbus decides to scrap the A350 and skips ahead to the A370, what will the answer be when a kid asks his dad why there is no A350? Because it was a flop? Won't skipping over the A350 designation mean it will forever be remembered as one of the biggest fiascos in the history of Airbus?
 
Joni
Topic Author
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 10):
This is exactly what all the fuss is about. Then they blame the customers for "Late input".

To the contrary, they've said that they welcome customer input, and have relied on it heavily ever since they made the A320 and A330/A340. Are you sure you haven't succumbed to the FNP ("fox news perspective")?

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 17):

I think you're really grasping at straws there Joni. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest Airbus has had parallel design plans all along. I think that's just pure fantasy on your part.

You can bet your derriere that when they started the A350 project they had an extensive concepting phase that involved more than one-week studies on different options. Not only does it make sense to do that in order to find out what kind of design to pursue, but it is also heavily implied by the fact that they're apparantly able to switch to a different track so soon.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 17):
If that was the case, why didn't they present those proposals to AC, NW, QF,

Because those were not the options they had chosen to pursue commercially.

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 24):
No airplane starts from scratch, each manufacturer has entire libraries full of previous studies. For all intents and purposes the new wider A350 would be starting from the beginning.

You appear to be slightly contradicting youself here, but see above for my understanding of how things lie.

By the way, how do you appear to know so much of what's going on inside Airbus?

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 24):

I'd be very interested to see what Airbus can come up with that will be competitive from the 788 to the 773. IMO, it simply isn't possible.

Is this due to some anomaly in the Earth's magnetic field in Europe, or are the guys at Airbus just dumber than Boeing's engineers? (FWIW, that was sarcasm)
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:53 pm

On the sidelines of the IATA conference this week, Tim Clark, president of Emirates, the largest Arab airline, said he wanted to shout "hallelujah" when Hazy made his public A350 criticism.

Essentially, Hazy said the A350 "sucks," Clark said, and he was right.

..."We continue to be impressed with the 787," Clark said in an interview, adding that he expected a detailed briefing from Airbus as soon as today about its plans for a new and improved A350.

Clark said Emirates wants an all-new plane, not one that was "not ready for the 21st century." He was referring to the previous version of the A350 that Airbus had been offering.


Udvar-Hazy, Clark, and Chew probably hold "the keys to the kingdom" where the nascent "newest all-new A350 (A370)" is concerned. Don't be surprised if Mr. Udvar-Hazy ultimately makes the "decisive utterance" sealing the fate of the results of Airbus's latest, seemingly frenzied efforts on this front.

Best quote of yesterday:

"We don't seen anything (Airbus) can do that will significantly change what we are doing," Baseler said in an interview at the IATA meeting.

"But they are smart guys," he added. "I'm sure they will figure something out."

Just what, however, remains to be seen.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/272969_iata07.html
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Joni
Topic Author
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:31 pm

Leelaw, do you copy-paste your own posts to several threads?
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 30):
Leelaw, do you copy-paste your own posts to several threads?

Rarely, I thought it was appropriate this time as it was relevant to both threads in which I posted it as they are essentially discussing the same topic.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 27):
When I was a kid, I remember asking my dad why there was no B717. He replied that the C135 was actually the B717.

If Airbus decides to scrap the A350 and skips ahead to the A370, what will the answer be when a kid asks his dad why there is no A350? Because it was a flop?

Why's there no 747-500 or 600?  Wink

What happened to the 777-100?

Why's the 767 smaller than the 747, while the 777 is bigger than the 767?  zzz 


This is getting ridiciculous. How deep are people going to dig in order to get their bias across?
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 28):
You can bet your derriere that when they started the A350 project they had an extensive concepting phase that involved more than one-week studies on different options.

Good, then we're in agreement. Airbus has a conceptual design for an aircraft with a larger fuselage, a new wing, new engines, etc.

Now all they have to do is spend a year or so carefully defining that design to produce the sort of refined and detailed engineering, performance, and production assessments required to respond to RFPs with specificity.

Of course they will have to renegotiate all of the existing A350 orders before they offer the aircraft to new customers because they will need specific production slot availability information for any new firm orders.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
grantcv
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:28 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 32):
Why's there no 747-500 or 600?

What happened to the 777-100?

Why's the 767 smaller than the 747, while the 777 is bigger than the 767?

All I was pointing out that the best way to help people forget about the A350 fiasco would be to retain the A350 designation for the next iteration rather than skip over it. Skipping the A350 designation would secure the A350 label as a failure rather than the next Airbus offering. I wasn't expressing a bias at all.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 34):
Skipping the A350 designation would secure the A350 label as a failure rather than the next Airbus offering.

Until they apply it to a new plane, as Boeing did with the 717.

Of course, folks will probably point out that plane was a "failure" too, since it sold in such small numbers, but it was a member of a highly successful family (the DC-9/MD-8X), just as the A318 and 736 are, even though they too sold in very poor numbers.

I personally like the symmetry of:

  • Calling the A320RS the A350
  • Refining the current A350 model to better compete with the 787-3 and 787-8 and launching it as the A360
  • Launching the new large widebody twin as the A370 to compete with the 787-9, 787-10 and the 777.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9064
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:39 am

I have a feeling that Airbus has been working on the 370 for a fairly long time, with their long term planning being to deliver it as a 777 competitor. When the 777 sales started kicking in higher than they anticipated the program was accelerated and now is put on the front burner - big time. In other words, I think it is a lot further along than it appears to be.

While it's easy to hit on Airbus for "getting caught with their pants down" the simple fact is that upgrading the 330 to compete with the 787 was made when fuel costs were a lot lower and the 350 would, at that time, have been a lot closer to the 787 than it is today. Boeing got caught in the same "what is the situation today" trap with the Sonic Cruiser. Dot com bubble, high ticket prices and full planes. The Sonic Cruiser was a great plane at that point in time and would still be a winner if we were in the same situation. Then came the dot com bust, eliminating a lot of high ticket revenue, followed by 9/11. Truth is that Boeing was very lucky they were very early in the program (minimal investment) and could transfer the technology to the 7E7 program very quickly.

Airbus can only gain from their current knowledge of the fuel cost problem and I believe they will address it aggressively on the 370. Because of their (assumed) existing work on the program I also believe that they will present a pretty impressive offering to the airlines and we'll get some interesting competition in that market. The airlines will start seeing the 370 this week and we'll know what it is before too long. Gonna be fun to watch.
 
787engineer
Posts: 545
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:08 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 28):
You appear to be slightly contradicting youself here, but see above for my understanding of how things lie.

By the way, how do you appear to know so much of what's going on inside Airbus?

No, I'm not contradicting myself, I'm pointing out that your claim that Airbus isn't starting from scratch since studies have been done on wider fuselage aircraft is sort of well. . .pointless. There are conceptual studies done all the time at both manufacturers. Just look at the "Muppet" planes by Boeing (http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2812003/). There are concepts/studies conducted all the time to varying degrees of completion, most of which won't see the light of day. To say that Airbus has studied a wider fuselage so they aren't starting from scratch is silly. No airplane starts without looking into past studies into that type of airplane. Each company will look into previous studies to see what would be the best course of action (what will the airlines buy, whether or not they can build it, etc).

How do you think I know a lot of what goes on at Airbus? I think it's common sense that Airbus is constantly doing all sorts of studies, otherwise they'd fall behind with lack of innovation and new technologies; they'd be a follower not a leader. I'm sure Boeing has studied making a A380 competitor, A and B probably have done studies into whether they can build a 70-100 pax regional jet. It's how the industry works.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6346
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
I personally like the symmetry of:



Calling the A320RS the A350

Refining the current A350 model to better compete with the 787-3 and 787-8 and launching it as the A360

Launching the new large widebody twin as the A370 to compete with the 787-9, 787-10 and the 777.

Mee too  Smile

If you include the 4-aisle A380 at the top, it sounds suspiciously like a fairly robust product strategy, doesn't it?

Regards
 
grantcv
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:28 pm

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
I have a feeling that Airbus has been working on the 370 for a fairly long time, with their long term planning being to deliver it as a 777 competitor. When the 777 sales started kicking in higher than they anticipated the program was accelerated and now is put on the front burner - big time. In other words, I think it is a lot further along than it appears to be.

If Airbus are doing an A370, then I imagine it will start out as a 772 competitor and grow to be a 773ER competitor. Given that Airbus has about a six year initial product development cycle + a few years to bring out variants, Airbus should be in a good position to compete with the 773ER in 8-10 years. Surely they need to be making decisions wrt their competion way before this?

Personally I don't think that Airbus have been working on the A370 for a fairly long time. After all, all their prior efforts have been very open. I remember the B9, B10, B11, T9, T11, and A3XX. Even the A320 was talked about long before it was launched. I think the A370, if it exists at all, is a much more recent response to the criticism that the A350 has received couple with the stalling of A340 sales.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Is Airbus Already Offering New A350/A370?

Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
I have a feeling that Airbus has been working on the 370 for a fairly long time, with their long term planning being to deliver it as a 777 competitor. When the 777 sales started kicking in higher than they anticipated the program was accelerated and now is put on the front burner - big time. In other words, I think it is a lot further along than it appears to be.

But if so, why was Airbus responding to the success of the 777 with incremental improvements to the A340 (the A340E) and an EIS of 2011? I would think if Airbus had a "full-size" twin in the bank, why not launch it concurrent with the A350 as Boeing did with the 757 and 767?

Also, by selling a better A340, you only hurt your chances to quickly sell a large widebody twin. Airlines like IB, VS, and LH are not going to take scores of A346Es and then two years later take more scores of A370s.

It adds up to me to be that while Airbus certainly has studies, they're more like the "767X" stage then the 777-200 stage. A two-plus year later EIS strikes me as reasonable both due to component/tooling sourcing requirements as well as another year or two to take that design study and firm it into an actual, sellable plane. I am sure Airbus fully expected Boeing to milk the 777 for all she was worth, so I would be surprised if they gave these studies "operational immediate" status since they (rightly) figured they'd have another decade or so to work on the study if they wished.

And unlike Boeing, who had no competition when they were shopping the 767X proposal and forming the initial "Working Together" consortium to finalize what that proposal would entail, Airbus is facing a flying competitor right now in the 777. True, that gives Airbus a hard benchmark to target, but Boeing also has a better competitor coming (the 787-10) plus whatever improvements they can add to the 777 while the Airbus plane is in development, prototyping, and test.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 38):
If you include the 4-aisle A380 at the top, it sounds suspiciously like a fairly robust product strategy, doesn't it?

Yes it does.

[Edited 2006-06-07 20:56:53]