777fan
Topic Author
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UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:14 am

Just got an email detailing UA's decision to close their CLE Red Carpet Club, citing "low usage" and a "significant increase in rent". Questions:

-How much UA traffic does CLE have?
-Why did they put a RCC there in the first place?
-Does this foretell of UA's decision to curtail further services there?


777fan
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luv2fly
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:22 am

CLE at one time was a hub for UA!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
luv2fly
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:23 am

Also pre 9-11 AA and US both operated clubs in CLE.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:29 am

Anyone remember the old "Sunbird" flights to Florida in the winter and the old "AL E. Gator" commercials?

United used to be the largest player in CLE for years. Many found memories as a child with my parents going somewhere fun on UA.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
777fan
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:35 am

Interesting. I've only been there once - sometime in 2000, during a connection on CO between BWI and ORD. CO seemed to rule without much of a challenge...


777fan
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chrisjake
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
-How much UA traffic does CLE have?

1 or 2 express to DEN
mixture of mainline and express to ORD
express to IAD

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
-Why did they put a RCC there in the first place?

like Luv2fly said....CLE was a pretty large UA hub before the mid-80's

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
-Does this foretell of UA's decision to curtail further services there?

doubt it....they dont have a whole lot as it is. but ya never know...


chris
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:43 am

UA's hub was there years ago. All of the things on the "C" concourse that you see as Continental used to be United Airlines. United left CLE as a hub in the late 80's when CO moved their up from IAD to CLE and then UA beefed up IAD.

Safe Flying  Smile

Remember, I am old. So I remember the 70's and 80's in CLE and flying United non stop to most major cities. DC8 Stretches and DC10's in UA colors all the time. Oh, the days of the "Friendship"
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
skibum9
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 6):
Remember, I am old. So I remember the 70's and 80's in CLE and flying United non stop to most major cities. DC8 Stretches and DC10's in UA colors all the time. Oh, the days of the "Friendship"

Second that! I remember as a kid, in the early 70s, taking a UA 747 from CLE to LAX. And many a DC-10 from ORD to CLE. UA also had a flight that went CLE-CAK-ORD, and another that went CLE-TOL-ORD.
Tailwinds!!!
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 7):

Yep the UA 747 CLE to LAX. And these kids are in love with jetBlue ! HA!

Safe Flying  Smile with a little humor now and then.
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
piercey
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:10 am

This is aweful.  Sad

Why, UA, why?
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
steeler83
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:11 am

In 1988, Did CO operate DC9s from PIT to CLE? I remember my grandparents flying out to PHX on CO and they left PIT on a DC9 that went to Ohio, was that likely up to CLE or was it to somewhere else? Anybody know?

I know the following year they went to PHX on DL and likely stopped over in ATL. I remember that return flight being either a Mad Dog or a 727...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 10):
In 1988, Did CO operate DC9s from PIT to CLE? I remember my grandparents flying out to PHX on CO and they left PIT on a DC9 that went to Ohio, was that likely up to CLE or was it to somewhere else? Anybody know?

Most likely CLE. That was a hub for CO at the time and CO did have a bunch of DC9's.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:26 am

In the late 80's, CO inherited New York Air's hub in IAD. Cleveland was UA's hub then. There was a rumor that (back in the late 80's) CO wanted to build up IAD, but that was put to rest when UA and CO "swapped" hubs.

Our IAD hub was great. Parking terminal side for employees, great trips to YOW (48 hours), SAN (through LAX) and others, we had the DC-10 pubs come through, the A-300, the mid-field terminal. It was a small base for FAs and pilots and was a tight-knit family within the CO one.

Never really found out why UA wanted IAD back then, now it's clear.

Seems nowadays all decisions are based on economics and feasibility.
You can't cure stupid
 
ord
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 12):
In the late 80's, CO inherited New York Air's hub in IAD. Cleveland was UA's hub then. There was a rumor that (back in the late 80's) CO wanted to build up IAD, but that was put to rest when UA and CO "swapped" hubs.

There was no swapping of hubs. United had pulled down Cleveland after deregulation in the early-mid 1980s, before Continental ever merged with New York Air (in 1987) and got their IAD hub. United had no need for two midwest hubs (ORD and CLE), and of course ORD won out.
 
skibum9
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting ORD" class=quote target=_blank>ORD (Reply 13):
There was no swapping of hubs. United had pulled down Cleveland after deregulation in the early-mid 1980s, before Continental ever merged with New York Air (in 1987) and got their IAD hub. United had no need for two midwest hubs (ORD and CLE), and of course ORD won out.

There was also some economic considerations in UAs decision to pull out of CLE. The costs at CLE were high and the city did nothing to help UA. In fact, after UA pulled out of CLE, DL approached CLE about a potential hub. However, again due to the costs and other airport problems, DL settled on CVG. Then came CO.
Tailwinds!!!
 
chrisjake
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 7):
I remember as a kid, in the early 70s, taking a UA 747 from CLE to LAX. And many a DC-10 from ORD to CLE. UA also had a flight that went CLE-CAK-ORD, and another that went CLE-TOL-ORD.

UA 747's to MIA, ORD and LAS too.
DC10's to ORD, MIA, FLL, PBI, ATL, TPA etc..
737s to TOL, CAK, LAN, FNT, GRR, CRW, YNG, SBN, FWA to name a few.
 
Jamake1
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:42 am

USAir was the big player in CLE after United's pull-down. At about the time USAir integrated PSA and Piedmont (1988-89) USAir flew non-stops from San Francisco and LAX to CLE, along with significant point-to-point service from CLE to the eastern seaboard. When I get home, I will dig out an old US/AL timetable. CLE was a true focus city for US/AL in the late 1980's...
United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
 
deltairlines
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:09 am

From what I remember reading at FlyerTalk, the club was an unattended one...members were supposed to sign in at the front, but allegedly there was no attendant there.

Jeff
 
steeler83
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 14):
There was also some economic considerations in UAs decision to pull out of CLE. The costs at CLE were high and the city did nothing to help UA. In fact, after UA pulled out of CLE, DL approached CLE about a potential hub. However, again due to the costs and other airport problems, DL settled on CVG. Then came CO.

Sounds like the same story of another airport I/we are all quite familiar with...

*cough cough*PIT*cough*

But without anyone coming in to establish their hub there, let alone discuss it... Okay, enough of that, back to CLE
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:46 am

I'm out of town and away from my timetable collection, but IIRC UA's June 1975 timetable showed CLE having about 85 dailies, including 747 to ORD, DC10's to ORD and I think DEN. (CLE is one of my 'home' airports because I have friends in that area, which is why I remember this sort of detail).

I'm surprised that a United Red Carpet club lasted this long at CLE. Hasn't CLE had the spoke-station schedule described by Chrisjake in reply 5 for over 10 years?

Jim

[Edited 2006-06-10 01:47:20]
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mbm3
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:18 am

CLE really has not had much from UA in the past 5 year (or more). It was not all that long ago when they were flying DC-10s ORD, DEN and SFO with a wide range of widebodies rotated from ORD between their flights to/from Europe.

Frankly, I too am surprised that the RCC lasted this long...
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
Avatordon
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:17 am

When I first hired on w/UA in '79, UA fielded 119 daily nonstops throughout the continental US w/virtually all type of equipment. That Fall, we each received a flyer entitled "United's Route Structure: How Its Changing & Why". It went on to describe how hubs such as ORD,DEN,SFO were going to increase hub flying, and places such as CLE & PIT were going to be down-sized. At one point, after the PATCO strike, UA terminated all flights into ATL & MSY, but later went back in. As I recall, the flight stage length from CLE was not economical as it covered a lot of cities in Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania. The ciompany opted to serve a lot of this from the West via DEN, then later, changed again and increased ORD. But CLE was downsized, and was barely a "nub", never mind a hub.
 
N702ML
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:58 am

Speaking of CO and UA in CLE....

When I first started working in CLE in 95, The UA ticket counter was still quite long and at the far left and took up half of what is today the CO ticket counter causing CO to have a "split" ticket counter operation.

The CLE ticket counters from left to right were something like....

United
Continental (for all flights other than BOS, LGA, DCA, MDW and ORD)
Northwest
Southwest
Charters
Air Ontario
Continental (for BOS, LGA, DCA, MDW and ORD flights only)
Delta
USAir
TWA
American
America West
Midwest Express

(Those last two, HP and YX, may have been vice versa but they were the last two on the far right)

I seem to recall an issue with UA not wanting to give up their position because of some-sort of underground bag conveyor that ran from curbside to inside the terminal for skycap use which UA had installed during the hub days. Since they didn't want to move their counter and CO needed the counter space, CO had two ticket counters and split them up based on destinations. At least this is what I read somewhere....or was told....

Anyway 777 fan, if you go to my website: www.geocities.com/departing1983/CLE79intro.html there are extensive flight schedules for all carriers serving CLE in 1979 and you can see how big CLE was for UA.
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of Southwest Airlines.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 10):
In 1988, Did CO operate DC9s from PIT to CLE? I remember my grandparents flying out to PHX on CO and they left PIT on a DC9 that went to Ohio, was that likely up to CLE or was it to somewhere else? Anybody know?

I know the following year they went to PHX on DL and likely stopped over in ATL. I remember that return flight being either a Mad Dog or a 727...

Actually, Steeler83, CO started CLE-PIT service in July of 1989. The CO station in PIT opened in 1987, when People Express became part of CO. The only routes were to EWR. CLE was added in 1989, and IAH was added in 1990-91, I believe. CO mainline agents were replaced by ExpressJet around 1998. The CO mainline agents all went to CLE.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
steeler83
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 23):
Actually, Steeler83, CO started CLE-PIT service in July of 1989. The CO station in PIT opened in 1987, when People Express became part of CO. The only routes were to EWR. CLE was added in 1989, and IAH was added in 1990-91, I believe. CO mainline agents were replaced by ExpressJet around 1998. The CO mainline agents all went to CLE.

You're like an all-knowing PIT aviation guy on here; you know just about everything about PIT aviation.

Anyway, I guess that DC9 went to Newark then if CLE wasn't added until a year later. I remember my grandma telling me that the plane went to Ohio (Ahiah)...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
777fan
Topic Author
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:37 pm

On a related note, I'm reading this from the confines of UA's RCC in Tokyo-Narita of all places. Boy, 777fan gets around, huh?! FWIW, this place is amazing; has to be one of the best RCCs out there. Trip report to follow upon my return home...


777fan
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CentPIT
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 23):
Actually, Steeler83, CO started CLE-PIT service in July of 1989. The CO station in PIT opened in 1987, when People Express became part of CO. The only routes were to EWR. CLE was added in 1989, and IAH was added in 1990-91, I believe. CO mainline agents were replaced by ExpressJet around 1998. The CO mainline agents all went to CLE.

When was this service discontinued? CLE-PIT was reintroduced on April 6, 2003 with the four daily BE1s.
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
FWAERJ
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 14):
In fact, after UA pulled out of CLE, DL approached CLE about a potential hub. However, again due to the costs and other airport problems, DL settled on CVG.

DL also looked at IND... in fact, IND was virtually begging DL to have their Midwest hub there so IND could have a dual-hub operation (a DL passenger hub and the then-new FedEx air cargo hub). After the decision went to CVG, IND was furious for many years, saying the choice of CVG was "a big mistake".

However, IND admitted after 9/11 that luring the DL hub would have meant much higher O&D airfares compared to today's fares (some of the lowest in the country), and now doesn't regret that they lost the DL hub contest.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
Indio66
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:00 am

Any CLE discussion is not complete without a reference to the paul simon movie "One trick pony"; he strolles throught the airport in the first part of the movie. I think it was shot in the late '70s.
 
alanCHS
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:18 am

UNITED route map from 1978

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/alancampbell/ua78.jpg
formerly N408BN, N757AT, Soupthansa, ARCJET
 
Indy
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 27):
However, IND admitted after 9/11 that luring the DL hub would have meant much higher O&D airfares compared to today's fares (some of the lowest in the country), and now doesn't regret that they lost the DL hub contest.

Absolutely correct. While there are benefits of having a hub like increased employment and more nonstop destinations the consumers usually win in a situation like we have here where several major carriers operate and there is no real runaway #1. Competition has kept prices very low here compared to other places. Off season prices here makes good day trips possible Big grin
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
USPIT10L
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 26):
When was this service discontinued? CLE-PIT was reintroduced on April 6, 2003 with the four daily BE1s.

Just after 9/11.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
USPIT10L
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 24):
Anyway, I guess that DC9 went to Newark then if CLE wasn't added until a year later. I remember my grandma telling me that the plane went to Ohio (Ahiah)...

Actually, unless it was an aircraft swap, PE had 737s only in PIT. CO might've swapped in a DC9 periodically, but IAH wasn't serviced yet from here.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 24):
You're like an all-knowing PIT aviation guy on here; you know just about everything about PIT aviation.

Thanks.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
goCOgo
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:01 am

Anyone know what the space might get used for? Perhaps some better food vendors? Or will they just close it off?
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
HPAEAA
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RE: UA's Cleveland RCC To Close; An Omen?!

Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 33):
Anyone know what the space might get used for? Perhaps some better food vendors? Or will they just close it off?

Well, the old AA Lounge became admin offices, and I think the US club is still closed off.... I'd assume that it would probably goto the airport for admin use, or perhaps TSA wants it for Admin offices.... well its too bad to see another club bite the dust.... CLE's gotta do something... seams in the past three years mainline has really died there....
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