PITrules
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NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:19 am

From the June issue of Air Cargo World, on the subject of Northwest replacing their older 742 freighters:

"Northwest is considering such options as the A-380 freighter that first reaches the market in 2008, the 777 freighter that is slated for launch that year, 747-400 conversions to freighters from current passenger service as well as -400 production freighters, plus the 747-8 that reaches its first airline customer late in 2009. Industry sources say the 747-8 is the most likely candidate to fit into Northwest's Asia focused cargo network."
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columba
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freig

Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
Industry sources say the 747-8 is the most likely candidate to fit into Northwest's Asia focused cargo network."

I would agree on that, too.
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7e72004
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:27 am

I would think one of the Boeing jets would be preferred. I am not trying to start an "A vs. B" thing but the 747 or 777 would be the more logical ones since the A380 may have trouble at some airports where NW has cargo service.
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NWDC10
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:38 am

I believe in the future, NW will order the 747-8 and when they retire their 747-400's they will just turn them into Cargo Freightors. Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.Robert NWDC10
 
starrion
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:44 am

I think NWDC10 hit the nail on the head. That makes the most sense by far.
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TokyoNarita
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:50 am

Realistically, NW will go looking for used B747-400s to convert them to freighters to replace their classics. They may even convert their own as more A330s and B787s may become available. A lot of successful asian carriers will soon be looking to get rid of their B744s pretty soon for more efficient twins. I would say there will be plenty of B744s available for cargo conversions for a while at a reasonable price.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2006-06-12 22:51:07]
 
gigneil
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 3):
Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.

There are a variety of reasons.

One is the nose door.
Another is that the 747-400BCF doesn't have the same uplift as a -400F.
Another is that 747-400s aren't just lying around.

N
 
FWAERJ
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 3):
I believe in the future, NW will order the 747-8 and when they retire their 747-400's they will just turn them into Cargo Freightors. Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.

I, too, see NW converting its pax 747-400s to freighters. OTOH, I see NW as more of a 777-300ER customer than a 747-8I customer. Remember, NW wants to right-size its Asian capacity, not increase it.
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BlueSky1976
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:38 am

First, NW would have to straighten out their Ch. 11 problem, then order new planes. But when they are ready to order, I'd say they'd go for 747-8i. As much as I'd rather see them ordering 777-300ER, with 748i they can use their existing maintenance and crews, so it would be more of an airframe-only investment instead of airframe + infrastructure + maintenance + training one.
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SeaMeFly
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:09 am

Would these purchases require another 195 millions pay cuts from the FA group?
 
adipasqu
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting PITrules (Thread starter):
Industry sources say the 747-8 is the most likely candidate to fit into Northwest's Asia focused cargo network.

Am I the only one here that thinks NW's DC-9 fleet would make excellent conversions to DC-9C's in 40 or so years when NW finally starts to phase 'em out? Who needs new 748's when you could have 20 old DC9's do the same thing? (just in case you couldn't tell, my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek)
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AirRyan
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:18 am

They are only seriously considered in the 747 advanced and will only use the others as a bargaining tool. I used to work down the hall from Steenlands office, right on the corner of domestic pricing and atlantic revenue management where so many evidently including some VP's would stop and congreate for numerous annoying (and sometimes informative) discussions. Suffice to say if they had the money they already would have ordered the 747 ADV and who knows, they may still be the launch customer for the passenger version, at least perhaps the US if nonetheless. NW definately sees the 748 as the perfect replacement for their 742's.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:23 am

Maybe Boeing will give them a deal if they launch the 787F. To me they would A) go for the 748
B) buy some 777F
C) launch the 787F.

I read in Airliner World that NW has converted the last of the 742's to F standadrs by IAI.

MCOflyer
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TokyoNarita
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:25 am

Quote:
Another is that the 747-400BCF doesn't have the same uplift as a -400F.

This is a good point, and I think it depends on whether if NW wants to keep the ANC cargo ops or the benefits of bypassing ANC. NCA and JAL both have picked up the 400Fs and now they are launching non-stops from NRT to Europe with almost full load.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2006-06-13 00:28:31]
 
MCOflyer
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:29 am

Whats the range of a 744F with a full cargo load? I would launch the 787F (if nobody already has). It would fit in perfectly w/ NW's 787 order.

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brendows
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 14):
Whats the range of a 744F with a full cargo load?

It should be about 4300nm on a standard day with CF6 engines with 0,85mach cruise.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:46 am

I won't put too much into this report, as a couple years ago Northwest PUBLICLY stated that they have no interest in the A380, its too big, and airports are too limited.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 8):
First, NW would have to straighten out their Ch. 11 problem, then order new planes

Wrong, just because your in Chapter 11 doesn't mean
1. You don't have any money
2. You cant order planes and other stuff

Being in Chapter 11 you can still order planes, esepecially if its vital to the airlines future and such.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:37 am

I didnt know that. Is it possible ordering new 748F for cargo and 748 passenger planes? I presume if Boeing gave them a good deal they would order the 748 Passenger to replace current ones.
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flydreamliner
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 3):
I believe in the future, NW will order the 747-8 and when they retire their 747-400's they will just turn them into Cargo Freightors. Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.Robert NWDC10

NW has a few routes that support a full 744 on the pacific, but they are trying to expand to more American cities from their NRT hub, which means 787s pick up the slack, and there is less use for 747s. NW increasingly doesn't need the big jets as much. They'll always have a 747 fleet for their heavy pacific routes (NRT-MSP, NRT-DTW etc.), but don't expect it to grow greatly. Plus, 748 means NEW jets - and those cost money.

Quoting Starrion (Reply 4):
I think NWDC10 hit the nail on the head. That makes the most sense by far.

Anyone who knows NW know - what makes the most sense has almost nothing to do with what NW does most of the time.

Quoting Seamefly (Reply 9):
Would these purchases require another 195 millions pay cuts from the FA group?

Hahaha, they FA union already voted down the current paycut contract, they are the lowest paid FA's around, or atleast on any legacy. Don't count on it. There isn't much left in the way of pay to cut.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
wjcandee
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 3):
Why would they buy a brand new a/c for cargo operations when they can buy brand new a/c for passengers and use their "retired" 747-400's for cargo operations.

There are a variety of reasons.

One is the nose door.
Another is that the 747-400BCF doesn't have the same uplift as a -400F.
Another is that 747-400s aren't just lying around.

N

Gigneil is of course correct. There's a good article from about 18 months ago that runs down which suppliers are doing what, that's pretty true today except that the big 757-conversion push hasn't yet happened; the demand is there but the supply isn't because of the renaissance that the 757 is enjoying in passenger service. http://www.atwonline.com/magazine/article.html?articleID=1082


Let me suggest two more issues:

(1) Availability of conversion slots, which Boeing has some control over by licensing additional contractors for conversion kits (like those kits Korean will ultimately use to convert some of its own 747-400s and maybe those of other carriers), but the ability to get "quick" conversions is limited, with many lines sold out for a few years.

(2) New vs used: Cargo is flown in two (essentially two, anyway) modes: high-utilization and low-utilization. On certain routes, carrying certain cargo, you're getting major-passenger-airline-like daily utilization of your assets. Under those circumstances, the higher capital cost of an all-new-aircraft acquistion pays off in the additional efficiencies or capabilities of the design, as well as typically-higher dispatch reliability and time between failures. On other routes, you're taking the thing, flying it to the hub with the night's business, sorting, reloading, and going back to the origin, and maybe you're doing that twice a day if you're lucky. The aircraft get to sit a lot. You can spend some time working on them while they're sitting without impacting schedules. Under those circumstances, the lower efficiency of the airframe is offset by lower capital cost of the airframe. With today's very-high fuel prices, the analysis changes a little, but it's still the basic tradeoff. So for most of the major "scheduled" cargo carriers, a mixed fleet is optimal. Newer aircraft that they're going to fly the crap out of, and older aircraft that will get to do some sitting around. UPS's fleet isn't a bad example of this. In the US, recent rumours are that DHL's two favorite aircraft are the 762 (which burns less fuel than a 727 and has a 2-person flight deck and one less engine, and carries basically the same load as a DC8 with two less engines and a 2-person flight deck on a lot less fuel) and the DC9. Interestingly, the aircraft that has the best dispatch reliability of all DHL US aircraft is the DC9. Flying 2 r/ts a day to the west coast, the 767s see very decent utilization, while the DC9s see significantly less. And each is well-suited to its mission.

Hope this helps.
 
NLINK
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:59 pm

One interesting rumor that has been around is Airbus and PW offering NW a very good deal to launch the 330F, which would still work using ANC as a hub but I believe this aircraft is to small in my opinion.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:17 pm

Can't imagine a NW A380F. The A380F isn't suited for some of the large & heavy lift cargo NW currently carries.

Why do you think UPS is ordering both the A380F & the 744F?
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MCOflyer
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:51 pm

The A330F would work using the A333 fuselage. The A332 is way too small. Of course you need to add more fuel tanks in order to make it efficent.

MCOflyer
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ChiGB1973
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:08 pm

I just wonder how you can consider all three as an and/or situation. Really, if you need an A-380, you need, what 2 or 3 777s. Since NW as the Asia cargo traffic, then the A-380 would be appropriate.

I do have to wonder what effect FedEx and UPS getting A-380s will have on NWs operation. Is NW hauling their cargo now that they will not be hauling in the future for these companies? I know NW has regular flights to ILN, but DHL has no intentions of getting the A-380 nor anything bigger than they have.

I tend to agree that passenger aircraft should take priority. How bad does NW need a nose loading aircraft. Maybe easier loading/unloading, but aside from huge cargo, the containers and nets side loaded would probably work fine. Not to discount the need for large air freight, but I am leaning towards converting what they have to freighters.

Have a good day guys!

M
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 23):
I do have to wonder what effect FedEx and UPS getting A-380s

FedEx and UPS wont be doing this with the A380F:


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Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:08 am

I should memtion that China Eastern is replacing its A300's with A333. If a A300 can be converted to a freighter, an A333 can. When the A300's get old, the A333 will be the perfect replacement. In 10-20yrs look for A333 or 332F flown FX.

MCOflyer
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columba
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 24):
FedEx and UPS wont be doing this with the A380F:

At least Fedex has no need for the nose door capability. The A380F is just fine for them.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
toltommy
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Seamefly (Reply 9):
Would these purchases require another 195 millions pay cuts from the FA group?

Well not agreeing to a paycut will only guarantee that there won't be any new planes, and that the old ones might not be flying anymore as well.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 18):
Hahaha, they FA union already voted down the current paycut contract, they are the lowest paid FA's around, or atleast on any legacy. Don't count on it. There isn't much left in the way of pay to cut.

The union members voted down the agreement that the union put on the table. You gotta source that proves that the current FA pay is below other legacy carriers? Especially US or UA? I'm afraid you are incorrect.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 27):
The union members voted down the agreement that the union put on the table. You gotta source that proves that the current FA pay is below other legacy carriers? Especially US or UA? I'm afraid you are incorrect.

My source is the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. There is an article almost every other week on this. Unless they are wrong, they say the NW F/A's would be by far the lowest paid legacy if the new contract went through, and as it stands they are near the bottom.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
UAMAYBACH1239
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
One is the nose door.
Another is that the 747-400BCF doesn't have the same uplift as a -400F.
Another is that 747-400s aren't just lying around.

The nose door will not be a factor when it comes to fleet replacement.

747-400 these planes are converted to fly just as if the were originally a cargo aircraft.

There are plenty of 747-400's "lying around" in the desert.  Cool
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DAYflyer
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:52 am

After today's announcement about the further A-380 delays, I bet it is off the table.
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gigneil
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 22):
The A330F would work using the A333 fuselage. The A332 is way too small. Of course you need to add more fuel tanks in order to make it efficent.

The only A330F design is based on the A330-200. The 333 just doesn't have the uplift. A 333F would be fine for the likes of FedEx, but not for anything heavier.

Quoting UAMAYBACH1239 (Reply 29):
747-400 these planes are converted to fly just as if the were originally a cargo aircraft.

That isn't even remotely true, especially seeing as they carry around a good deal more fuselage weight.

N
 
wjcandee
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 31):
Quoting UAMAYBACH1239 (Reply 29):
747-400 these planes are converted to fly just as if the were originally a cargo aircraft.

That isn't even remotely true, especially seeing as they carry around a good deal more fuselage weight.

I remember Boeing pitching that you get essentially the same cargo *volume* in the BCF as you do in the 744 freighter, but they didn't expressly pitch weight. In looking at the card for the BCF http://www.boeing.com/commercial/avi...ices/brochures/747-400BCF_Card.pdf
and comparing it to the specs for the 744F http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/pf/pf_400f_prod.html
it shows that the numbers are in the same order of magnitude, but they're not the same. I also notice the substantial difference in thrust levels, which has to affect performance and capability of the BCF. You know more about this than I, so I would appreciate your insights.
 
centrair
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RE: NW Considering A-380, 747-8, 744, Or 777 Freighter

Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:25 pm

If talking only Cargo for NW, then I think a combination of 400BCF and 747-8F. Convert 744s they own and buy 748Fs to complement. The A380 would be out for cargo. NW doesn't just do boxes and packages they do oversized items as well. The 777F could be in the mix but I would think that is a slim chance.

If you are talking Pax planes, then A380 is out and I would even think the 747-8i is out. A 777-300ER would do just fine for them. With NW looking to offer more non-stops using the 787, the need to filter everyone through NRT will be cut back. I just don't see NW needing a plane designed for slot restricted airports like NRT when NW holds many slots at NRT. (third largest at NRT). The 747-8I could replace the 744s but an 777-300ER could do just as well. If NW were to go with the 747-8I, it would be in few numbers. Why increase capacity when you plan to over fly it. If you have MSP-HKG and MSP-NRT-HKG, you are better off cutting some capacity. One 773ER MSP-NRT-HKG you get O/D on the NRT-HKG which is mostly tourists (no money) but you can get some businss people as well. This also allows for through traffic from other locations like PDX and SEA who would be coming on a smaller plane to begin with. But with MSP-HKG non-stop with a 787, you can get more Business O/D.

I believe that that 777 is in the Pilots contract. It was put in there when NW was looking at the 777 vs the A330 as a DC-10 replacement.

This thread is confusing, I couldn't decifer if it was about Pax versions or Cargo versions so I commented on both
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