LRGT
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A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:52 am

It seems as if the scrapping of A320's (non-crash) has already begun!

Is there some reason for this breakup that is not obvious??? The fact that it was done in the most dangerous part of Florida makes it seem like it could have something to do with a scam or shady deal?

March 2005 - Pristine aircraft awaiting scrapping in Florida:

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February 2006 - All broken up:

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Photo © MarkStevens

Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
Newark777
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:01 pm

Quoting Lrgt (Thread starter):

Is there some reason for this breakup that is not obvious??? The fact that it was done in the most dangerous part of Florida makes it seem like it could have something to do with a scam or shady deal?

I'm guessing that it had a lot of cycles put on it, and something like a D check came along, and it was cheaper just to scrap it.

Just looked up the airframe, and saw that it was first flown back in 1988, the 28th A320 built. It was no new aircraft.

Harry

[Edited 2006-06-14 05:07:20]
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
MCOflyer
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:12 pm

I agree, its old a D checks are expensive. I've seen happen to relatively young US a/c. The 734's that were broken up werent that old.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
joffie
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:21 pm

This has been covered many times.

Simply, it seems more economic to use the Parts then to replace them.

The oldest A320's IE BA A320-100 without Winglets i assume will be getting scrapped once the replacement aircraft are delivered.
 
airwave
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 4):
Amazing how quickly airplanes get recycled now..

It's a shame, isn't it? They just don't build 'em like they used to. That's "progress" for ya...

Quoting Joffie (Reply 6):
Simply, it seems more economic to use the Parts then to replace them.

I'd really love to see what the ledger looks like for that. I mean, a frame like the one above is probably fully depreciated, so there's no charges associated with it, but for younger frames, what's the story? How about the storage and deconstruction costs? What percentage of parts are resellable?

I'm curious to see how profitable something like this really is.


Airwave  eyebrow 
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
 
warreng24
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:35 pm

Do you think the crews that flew the A320's in were picked up and flown out by 737's?
 
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litz
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:46 pm

I'd like to know who managed to mess up their A320 bad enough that they needed the middle wall sections over the wingbox on both sides of the fuselage.

How odd that they cut JUST that section out, and in perfect rectangles, too.

Notice the cockpit has also been surgically removed (someone's flightsim, perhaps?) ...

As for why? Simple : high cycles, older model, probably due for a D-check, and likely worth far more in parts/salvage then as a flying airframe.

Sad, but it's simple economics.

Relatively new 737-300s and 400s, MD80s, et al have all met their fate 'cause of the same thing.

As much as we hate to see old (or even not so old) planes go away, remember that Boeing and Airbus have to sell NEW planes ... and the size of the world's airfleets are finite in size (and in fact, getting smaller as the airlines shrink themselves) ...

You can't have new without disposing of the old. What doesn't go to 3rd world airlines, goes to the desert, then to OpaLocka.

- litz
 
MCOflyer
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:48 pm

Most likely they flew via MIA to Cyprus, that is if Cyprus flew the plane in. If not, good question. Those Pro Air MD-90's were awful young to be scrapped dont you think?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...r=2&prev_id=1010456&next_id=NEXTID
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LRGT
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Lrgt (Reply 8):
I was shocked to find that the same facility also scrapped a 737 (ex-UA N915UA) built 8/30/91 ...have any aircraft built after that been scrapped, or does that 737 hold the current record (not including aircraft involved in accidents)?

Perhaps a Continental 767-200's built 2000-2002 (already slated to be replaced by 787's) will set the new record down the road  stirthepot 

Actually the 8/30/91 record is far beat by MD-90's P4-MDF, P4-MDG, and P4-MDH... all built 11/??/98 and scrapped 2005!!!
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
Newark777
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting Litz (Reply 11):
I'd like to know who managed to mess up their A320 bad enough that they needed the middle wall sections over the wingbox on both sides of the fuselage.

How odd that they cut JUST that section out, and in perfect rectangles, too.

They are probably using the overwing exit doors for FA emergency training.

Quoting Litz (Reply 11):

Notice the cockpit has also been surgically removed (someone's flightsim, perhaps?) ...

Why get rid of an otherwise good cockpit.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
columba
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting Airwave (Reply 9):
It's a shame, isn't it? They just don't build 'em like they used to. That's "progress" for ya...

Yeah, but not only aircraft but all kind of electronics as well. I don´t know how many CD-players I have had over the last 15 years.
My grandmother has a 30 years old "Miele Dish Washer" and a 20 years old vacuum which work more than fine (even better than today´s product) while I had just to buy another vacuum for my apartment since it broke and beyond repair.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
airbusA346
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:33 pm

I think it might have also been, because of the salt air around the airport in Cyprus, corroding the aircraft.

Might be wrong though.

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
CalAir
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:26 pm

Well, its that age old saying, they just dont make em like they used to!! And how true it is! My mum's hairdryer was 32 yrs old when it finally died last month, and the new one she bought to replace it has had to be replaced once as it was faulty! Workmanship and build quality are not as good as say 20 or 30 years ago, on pretty much anything. Remember Patroni's saying ;

"take the wings off a 707 and you could use it as a tank, and the 707 is designed to withstand anything,except a bad pilot!"

Well, theres still a few 707's and DC-9's flying about that are 3 times the age of that A320.
British Caledonian...we never forget, you have a choice
 
AADC10
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:58 pm

The condition of the plane also depends on the maintenance. Used planes from a large flag carrier are worth a lot more on the secondary market because it is known that they were properly maintained. Smaller airlines usually have poorer maintenance and their used planes are less valuable and who knows about Cyprus.

It also may well have been corroded in the Mediteranian humdity and subject to a high number of cycles over the 16-17 years it operated. It was proabaly a mess and its part value is high due to all of the A320s flying around.
 
AMSSFO
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:21 pm

for some more answers see http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/2240624/6/#ID2240624
and the last reply in this thread: http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/2049926/6/#ID2049926

Quote:
DBCooper: -DAT was CY's oldest A-320...and had the -A1 engines. There is a very limited market for 320s with -A1 engines (everyone strongly prefers the -A5 for both maintenance and performance reasons). Perhaps it was also due for a heavy check?
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:51 pm

I was on the Airbus website the other day and noticed that there where 20 less aircraft in service then where delivered.
John Hancock
 
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litz
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:15 pm

Quoting CalAir (Reply 14):
Well, theres still a few 707's and DC-9's flying about that are 3 times the age of that A320.

Consider this ... NWA's oldest DC9s are getting retired. Aside from the fuel efficiency issues w/the older JT8D why are they being retired? Because the FAA set an upper limit on the number of cycles the plane could run. And because of that, it wasn't cost effective to rejig the planes for the new reduced separations standards.

Without that limit, with proper maintenance, a DC9 could probably go forever.

- litz
 
irobertson
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting CalAir (Reply 14):
Well, theres still a few 707's and DC-9's flying about that are 3 times the age of that A320.

This is what I was wondering about. How can UPS and DHL and others fly DC8s built in the 1960s and pass their D checks and not use the same "simple economics" and scrap them too?
 
warreng24
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 19):
Quoting CalAir (Reply 14):
Well, theres still a few 707's and DC-9's flying about that are 3 times the age of that A320.

This is what I was wondering about. How can UPS and DHL and others fly DC8s built in the 1960s and pass their D checks and not use the same "simple economics" and scrap them too?

One must remember that UPS and DHL fly cargo aircraft that may only take one or two flights a day at most. So that's maybe two cycles per day. The aircraft will last virtually forever at that rate.
 
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litz
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 20):
One must remember that UPS and DHL fly cargo aircraft that may only take one or two flights a day at most. So that's maybe two cycles per day. The aircraft will last virtually forever at that rate.

Aren't margins for cargo are vastly greater than for passengers?

It's been said that some Hawaii-mainland flights pay for themselves with cargo only - the pax are pure profit on top ...

Remember - cargo doesn't complain, cargo doesn't sue, and cargo doesn't eat or drink.

That being said, you can still operate older aircraft for cargo quite profitably ... they make 1 or 2 flights a day and they're dirt cheap to buy.

- litz
 
N774UA
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:13 am

Weren't there also 2 Frontier A320's in the process of being scrapped? I think there was a thread about it last month.

United
...follow his instructions, switch off at the stand.
 
ShowerOfSparks
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting N774UA (Reply 22):
Weren't there also 2 Frontier A320's in the process of being scrapped? I think there was a thread about it last month.

United

Don't see how since Frontier doesn't operate A320's yet.
 
legoguy
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting Lrgt (Thread starter):
It seems as if the scrapping of A320's (non-crash) has already begun!

Seems like such a waste. I thought they might have been sold to third world countries however if the aircraft are corroding....

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 15):
It also may well have been corroded in the Mediteranian humdity and subject to a high number of cycles over the 16-17 years it operated

...then maybe its for the best, rather than passing the problems on to the poorer countries.
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
MEA-707
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting N774UA (Reply 22):
Weren't there also 2 Frontier A320's in the process of being scrapped?

It were former America West aircraft, also fairly high cycle machines of the early 1990s with a non standard configuration.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
N774UA
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting ShowerOfSparks (Reply 23):

Don't see how since Frontier doesn't operate A320's yet.

My bad  Embarrassment . I meant America West.

Regards
United
...follow his instructions, switch off at the stand.
 
Cadet57
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:49 am

I dont know why we are discussing this again. There are many threads on the scrapping of this plane. Do a search. It was said, IIRC that it was scrapped due to corrosion to the airframe.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
OB1504
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Lrgt (Thread starter):
Is there some reason for this breakup that is not obvious??? The fact that it was done in the most dangerous part of Florida makes it seem like it could have something to do with a scam or shady deal?

I live about three miles from where this airplane was broken up, and God help you if you think Miami Lakes (the town bordering the airport to the west) is dangerous.  Silly

The airplane in question is an A320-231, whose engines aren't as powerful as its -232 or -233 counterparts, and it's also older than most A320s, so, as stated above, it was more economical to scrap it.
 
pillowtester
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:10 am

Geez A320s are starting to be scrapped now? I feel old.
...said Dan jubilantly.
 
IDAWA
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 7):
Do you think the crews that flew the A320's in were picked up and flown out by 737's?

I don't know what happened with this early A320, but I'm sure that when the last A320 will be parked in the desert, the crew will fly back on a DC-9  bigthumbsup 

I-DAWA
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
Newark777
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting IDAWA (Reply 28):
I don't know what happened with this early A320, but I'm sure that when the last A320 will be parked in the desert, the crew will fly back on a DC-9

Haha, I remember that was the joke when the WN and HP 732's were being retired.  Smile

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
GDB
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:29 am

I too feel old seeing early production, high cycle A320's broken up.
I can remember when it was launched, was just artist's impressions!

To answer Joffie, BA's intended for BCAL aircraft, very early production -100's, in use since 1988, will start to go in the next year or so.
Two so far are earmarked (forget the reg's, sorry!), to go to Lasham within 18 months, for break up and parts reclamation-undercarriages for example.
 
CYatUK
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 13):
The condition of the plane also depends on the maintenance. Used planes from a large flag carrier are worth a lot more on the secondary market because it is known that they were properly maintained. Smaller airlines usually have poorer maintenance and their used planes are less valuable and who knows about Cyprus.

It also may well have been corroded in the Mediteranian humdity and subject to a high number of cycles over the 16-17 years it operated. It was proabaly a mess and its part value is high due to all of the A320s flying around.

I am sorry to disappoint you but no-one had managed to correctly guess tha main reason for the aircraft scrapping.

The main reason is the difficult financial position of Cyprus Airways. The airline purchased 2 brand new A319 and leased 2 new A330 in 2001 but never managed to recover the costs mainly due to the setup of a subsidiary in Greece (Hellas Jet) which did not go well but allso due to lower passenger numbers and high operational costs.

As a result, during the last year, Cyprus Airways have led off 25% of their staff, transferred 1 A320 to their subsidiary Eurocypria and sold 1 A320.
The fact that the A320 was sold for scrapping is a pure coincidence as the airline only indented for the higher price without really getting involved in the aircraft's fate.

At the moment, Cyprus Airways have asked for EU permission to allow Cyprus government to guarantee a loan that will get them out of their difficult financial condition. In return, EU have asked for a thorough company re-organisation, salary and staff reductions and possible re-organisation of their destinations.
CY@Uk
 
slider
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 5):
Do you think the crews that flew the A320's in were picked up and flown out by 737's?

Nope.

By NW DC-9s.  stirthepot 
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting Joffie (Reply 3):
This has been covered many times.

Simply, it seems more economic to use the Parts then to replace them.

 checkmark 

Right now the parts are worth quite a bit (expanding A320 fleet with a relatively low quantity of used parts on vendor's shelves). Redo this evaluation in 10 years... and a different answer *might* be arrived at. (Or everyone might be scrapping A320's to get A320NG's or 737RS's.)

Quoting Airwave (Reply 4):
I'm curious to see how profitable something like this really is.

I'm not sure its profitable. But what it comes down to is figuring out which is greater. Both options could be money losers, just one might lose less money than the other:

A) Value as a flying airframe - D check cost & other costs

or

B) Value of parts on the open market - scrap labor & other costs.

Don't forget, there is always a *reliability* assumption with older aircraft. I've mentioned before that the cost of a missed flight is *huge* for an airline. Thus, the equation could be tipped to scapping the airframe because of one assumption (reliability post D-check). For example, most companies replace their trucks regularly due to the high cost of one breaking down. But... then we have UPS that drives those brown toasters to their grave. Its all about the assume reliability, MX, and cost of a breakdown.

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 31):

The main reason is the difficult financial position of Cyprus Airways. The airline purchased 2 brand new A319 and leased 2 new A330 in 2001 but never managed to recover the costs mainly due to the setup of a subsidiary in Greece (Hellas Jet) which did not go well but allso due to lower passenger numbers and high operational costs.

Quite possible, but there is always a resale value of the airframe. The airframes can be considered somewhat seperate from the airline economics. (Not completely, for an airline in financial trouble is given less credit for assumed MX and thus the airframe's resale must be marked down.) Since the resale market on 32X family aircraft is very strong... it cannot be just that one airlines financial health.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
drinkstrolley
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:34 am

I flew on that one LHR-LCA about three years back, it even SMELT new then!!!

Amazing.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 5):
Do you think the crews that flew the A320's in were picked up and flown out by 737's?

No, but NW sent in a DC-9 to pick them up.

Quoting Slider (Reply 32):
Nope.

By NW DC-9s.

DAMN! Beat me to it.
Puhdiddle
 
carledwards
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:00 am

An NW DC-9? Arent they going to be scrapped sometime soon? they are much older than A320's

Ok its a joke  Smile I just could not help mentioning, as I've not seen the old NW DC9 question asked by anyone on here for a while!
Directoria
 
747727
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:11 am

It make a change to see an airbus being cut up instead of a nice old boeing.
 
spetouss
Posts: 43
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 13):
The condition of the plane also depends on the maintenance. Used planes from a large flag carrier are worth a lot more on the secondary market because it is known that they were properly maintained. Smaller airlines usually have poorer maintenance and their used planes are less valuable and who knows about Cyprus.

Cyprus Airways likes keeping their planes in perfect operational condition.

The truth for this aircraft is exactly as CYatUK explained earlier.

That poor aircraft was scrapped for a very stupid reason from a very poor management team. There was nothing wrong with the plane. The sister aircraft 5B-DAU will still fly with CY for long.

The poor aircraft was sold as soon as possible to the first entity that maked an offer, forced to go out of service, in order to pay the salaries of the employees of the airline for the December payroll on time for the Christmas holidays because the company was running out of cash. The airline was and still is in very bad financial condition.

Really stupid decision. Thats conclude the faith of the poor 5B-DAT.

I had the chance to fly with that aircraft many times, last one being on the 28 August 2004.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting CalAir (Reply 12):
Well, theres still a few 707's and DC-9's flying about that are 3 times the age of that A320.

Add AS's 732's in that mix...they've been around a long, long time! 18+ years I believe.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:52 am

I think that we will have to get used to seeing old 320s fall by the wayside.

With the current fuel prices I think that we can draw a fat red line between pre-1992 models with CFM56-5A engines and younger birds equipped with CFM56-5B engines. That A or B means a lot.

The -5A was not much more than a hastily produced mating of the core of the military GE F-101 engine on the B-1 supersonic bomber to the fan of the discontinued French SNECMA M56 engine project - originally aimed at an upgraded Dassault Mercure airliner.

The -5B is a much more refined and optimized product with somewhat improved fuel burn figures. Those two engines have very few components in common.

Due to lack of double annullar combusters the operators of the -5A engine may also pay a higher fee at some European airport due to considerably higher NOx emission figures.

So it is my guess that CFM56-5A equipped 320s are not very much asked for these days. If there is a little more than an upcoming D check (corrosion, a little wrinckles from a hard landing or such) then residual value may not pay for the D check.

When talking about CFM56 equipped 320s, then it won't surprise me if post-1992 ships will have a somewhat longer life than the early -5A equipped birds. When was the shift? Wasn't it around c/n 200 or 300?

So those old -5A birds are in fact a rather rare and special thing these days, even if the most experienced spotter may be unable to tell the difference.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
boo25
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:00 am

I'll be glad to see the back of the 10 old BA A320's (All start G-BUS A-I) - the toilets are something else!

They're real noisy in the cabin too at the back - almost as bad as a 732!
 
bredman1
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:44 am

2 scrapped in KROW more to go
 
bredman1
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RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:48 am

I think that we will have to get used to seeing old 320s fall by the wayside.

With the current fuel prices I think that we can draw a fat red line between pre-1992 models with CFM56-5A engines and younger birds equipped with CFM56-5B engines. That A or B means a lot.

The -5A was not much more than a hastily produced mating of the core of the military GE F-101 engine on the B-1 supersonic bomber to the fan of the discontinued French SNECMA M56 engine project - originally aimed at an upgraded Dassault Mercure airliner.

The -5B is a much more refined and optimized product with somewhat improved fuel burn figures. Those two engines have very few components in common.

Due to lack of double annullar combusters the operators of the -5A engine may also pay a higher fee at some European airport due to considerably higher NOx emission figures.

So it is my guess that CFM56-5A equipped 320s are not very much asked for these days. If there is a little more than an upcoming D check (corrosion, a little wrinckles from a hard landing or such) then residual value may not pay for the D check.

When talking about CFM56 equipped 320s, then it won't surprise me if post-1992 ships will have a somewhat longer life than the early -5A equipped birds. When was the shift? Wasn't it around c/n 200 or 300?

So those old -5A birds are in fact a rather rare and special thing these days, even if the most experienced spotter may be unable to tell the difference.
 Big grin



Yea but the ones scrapped in KROW had had v-2500's
 
CYatUK
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:21 am

RE: A320's Now Being Scrapped!

Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting Bredman1 (Reply 43):
Yea but the ones scrapped in KROW had had v-2500's

Same applies to those of CY.
CY@Uk

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