cpairDC10
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:56 am

Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:03 pm

Report from Bloombergs web site.....makes sad reading

Emirates, Largest A380 Customer, `Considering' Options on Delay
June 14 (Bloomberg) -- Emirates, the largest customer for Airbus SAS's A380, said it's ``considering its position'' after the European planemaker delayed delivery of the 555-seat aircraft by another six months.

Emirates, which ordered 45 of the world's largest passenger plane, will receive the first one in October 2007, rather than April, the Arab carrier said today in an e-mailed statement.

That's a year later than originally scheduled when the Dubai, United Arab Emirates-based carrier ordered the planes. A spokeswoman for Emirates wouldn't say if options included seeking compensation from Toulouse, France-based Airbus.

Airbus will push Emirates's ``patience'' if delivery of the aircraft is delayed again, Tim Clark, president of the carrier, said in December.

``We can forgive six months but I don't think we'll forgive much more than that,'' Clark told journalists at the opening of Emirates' new passenger lounge at Paris's Charles de Gaulle airport on Dec. 6.

Clark and Emirates Vice Chairman Maurice Flanagan were in a meeting today when their offices were called. Emirates said yesterday delivery of the planes will be delayed again. Airbus confirmed the delay later in the day.

Any bets on the end of the programm before the plane is in service ???
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:17 pm

Quoting CPairDC10 (Thread starter):
Any bets on the end of the programm before the plane is in service ???

No, the A380 program won't die, not even after the latest delay...  Yeah sure


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
scoliodon
Posts: 212
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:22 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 1):
No, the A380 program won't die, not even after the latest delay...

 checkmark 
JFK-LGA-EWR-DTW-IND-PHX-CLE-SFO-LAS-SEA-ORD-MCO-MIA-DFW-ATL-CDG-FRA-BOM-MAA-DEL-TRZ-DXB-CLT-CVG-DEN-MSP
 
NAV20
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting CPairDC10 (Thread starter):
Any bets on the end of the programm before the plane is in service ???

I think it could turn out to be the 'end' of bigger things than just the A380. A lot could depend on what happens to EADS' shares over the next few days.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Toulouse
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting CPairDC10 (Thread starter):
Any bets on the end of the programm before the plane is in service ???

Please don't tell me you'd be silly enough to bet money on the programme ending before EIS! What have you been smoking to post this? Have a happy day, and keep away from the bookies for your own sake!
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
astuteman
Posts: 6340
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
A lot could depend on what happens to EADS' shares over the next few days.

Presumably, the avoidance of your hypothesized $100m per frame loss on 20 lost frames production will see EADS shares skyrocket........
A
 
justplanes
Posts: 837
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:32 pm

Won't this make it real though on Airbus to convince Emirates to go with the A350/A370? in the event they were still considering this aircraft...
 
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fxramper
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:42 pm

Can EK legally tell Airbus they don't want the A380 cause it's taking so long and order another a/c?
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:45 pm

I'd love to join the chorus of Airbus bashers, but the reality is that would be a foolish decision. Now obviously AB is going to pay a price for not delivering what they told their customers to expect, but to w/o the company arbitrarily is not sensible. They have way too many acomplishments to let this large bump bring it to an end, to say nothing of what the EU would do to ensure that Airbus is around long after the last 380 is retired. Is this bad, yes, but it's not the end.
This space intentionally left blank
 
cpairDC10
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:56 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:19 pm

OK its not the end , but it dosent look good does it when they want to launch the 370 , then deliver the 380 a year late !! when the largest customer happens to be one of the richest and maybe most influetial in the world today ?

Hope this doesnt happen to the 370 programm as id love to see this ordered in large numbers......maybe if AB qet it right.

Just heard on the German news that the new delay has come from a problem with the electrical installation , anybody else heard this ??
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:28 pm

Quoting FXramper (Reply 7):

After more than 1 year delay, I think they can. There should be in the contract, a provision that describe the liability of the manufacturer, and the penalty on not meeting those target. I do not know if it is a valid comparison, but I think when Eclipse500 changed the engine and delay the launch by 1-2 years, it stated that those changes were ground for termination.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:31 pm

Quoting CPairDC10 (Reply 9):
OK its not the end , but it dosent look good does it when they want to launch the 370 , then deliver the 380 a year late !! when the largest customer happens to be one of the richest and maybe most influetial in the world today ?

Someone's head needs to roll for this... Probably no chance that it will be old Noel..

I have a real hard time understanding why the wiring is the issue... There must be some other problem lurking. What is it that Airbus does'nt understand about wiring? I mean, they have made a bunch of new planes recently , 345, 346, 320 with similar systems to whats in the 380.

What is so special about the 380 wiring that's going to lead to further delays and over $2B in losses?

-iwok
 
aeronut
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:41 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 11):
Someone's head needs to roll for this... Probably no chance that it will be old Noel..

I have a real hard time understanding why the wiring is the issue... There must be some other problem lurking. What is it that Airbus does'nt understand about wiring? I mean, they have made a bunch of new planes recently , 345, 346, 320 with similar systems to whats in the 380.

What is so special about the 380 wiring that's going to lead to further delays and over $2B in losses?

-iwok

I tend to agree, although wiring, and espcially wiring for IFE systems comes much much later in the design of the aircraft. In the 6 years the plane has been developing, these systems have probably changed,and the customer' specs have changed also.

Often, people think that if something is wrong, just fix it and move on. In aviation, a simple electrical backshell could have a lead time of 52 weeks!
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting FXramper (Reply 7):
Can EK legally tell Airbus they don't want the A380 cause it's taking so long and order another a/c?

I dont know the answer to your question, and I'm not having a shot at it either, no doubt many others will.  Wink

However, consider this,

If EK cancels the order, what will they get instead? Something similar sized is not on offer, if you go slightly smaller you have the 748i (EK being interested in a stretched A380, I doubt they would want to go smaller). The 748i, will not go into commercial service for atleast another 4 years. By cancelling the A380 EK would only make the damage to themselfes bigger, as it will take them even longer before they can take delivery of any other aircraft they will order instead of the cancelled A380's.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 11):

Someone's head needs to roll for this... Probably no chance that it will be old Noel..

your telling me...

fair use excerpt:

"Shares of European defense company and Airbus parent EADS fell 18% on Wednesday after the European plane manufacturer said its production program for the A380 superjumbo is being slowed down"

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Stor...eid=38882%2E1451563889%2D877916650


hopefully the stock will recover.......but I think shareholders in EADS need to have the management of this company re-evaluated..

I certainly think Gustav Humbert will do a good job at Airbus though...
"Up the Irons!"
 
nudelhirsch
Posts: 1371
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:05 pm

There won't be massive cancellations. This is all about compensation.

Airlines knew from the beginning how many seats the plane would have, and that is what they planned on. They did not just go shopping for the best deal, like a soccer mom at a grocery store.

They planned a huge share of their future development on the 380 and they will not just cancel that.

For Airbus, of course, there is a rough patch ahead to cough up the compensations they might have to pay.

Yet, the latest delay was due to production difficulties, not the plane. It could well be that a supplier went belly up or bailed out, or delivered crap, whatever. Could well be that Airbus can reclaim the compensations from suppliers.

A program's death, after building 15 frames, doing world wide flying? Ridiculous, childish comment. That only flames up the annoying A<>B nonsense.
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:12 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 15):
There won't be massive cancellations. This is all about compensation.

I don't see cancellations either, but it is a credibility train wreck..especially when SQ and EK were deciding between the 787 and A350/A370.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
nudelhirsch
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:20 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
I don't see cancellations either, but it is a credibility train wreck..especially when SQ and EK were deciding between the 787 and A350/A370.....

So where is their big 787 order? It is nowhere. This is not about the credibility like if your last Mercury or Buick was bad, you'll never buy one again. Planes are a notch more complex than that. If SQ and EK are clever, they'll wait half a year and see what happens. Everything else is just an attempt to squeeze out money...

Airbus has for more than 30 years proven enough credibility. This time something went wrong, but Boeing is not always right either... The 748 is not exactly selling well... A few freighters and a VIP plane that obviously was part of a 777 deal... Boeing loses some credibility if they can only sell the 748i as part of a 20 frame 777 deal.

Too many people here treat that business like a consumer business. But in fact it is vastly different.
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
AlanUK
Posts: 511
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:24 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
"Shares of European defense company and Airbus parent EADS fell 18% on Wednesday after the European plane manufacturer said its production program for the A380 superjumbo is being slowed down"

I find that crazy, would share holders (and airlines) prefer to start deliveries of a plane that isn't quite fit to fly?

Airbus isn't delaying the project for fun, it is doing it to ensure things work well when it flies! We don't want a rushed A380 to have an accident within a week of service now, do we?
 
Joni
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting CPairDC10 (Thread starter):

``We can forgive six months but I don't think we'll forgive much more than that,'' Clark told journalists at the opening of Emirates' new passenger lounge at Paris's Charles de Gaulle airport on Dec. 6.

It sounds like Emirates intends to claim compensation for the late deliveries - and sounds like they didn't demand compensation for the earlir six-month delay.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):

I think it could turn out to be the 'end' of bigger things than just the A380. A lot could depend on what happens to EADS' shares over the next few days.

Umm, this is still just a delay in delivering planes, not even delay in EIS. Let's see how you react when final 787 delays become known.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 7):
Can EK legally tell Airbus they don't want the A380 cause it's taking so long and order another a/c?

They can cancel their order, but that will incur cancellation costs. However they likely do have clauses in the contract that enable Emirates to claim financial compensation for the delays.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 17):

So where is their big 787 order? It is nowhere. This is not about the credibility like if your last Mercury or Buick was bad, you'll never buy one again. Planes are a notch more complex than that. If SQ and EK are clever, they'll wait half a year and see what happens. Everything else is just an attempt to squeeze out money...

Who says they won't be making a decision soon? SQ have mentioned they will, not to mention, SQ and EK were waiting to see what Airbus brought to the table..

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 17):
Airbus has for more than 30 years proven enough credibility. This time something went wrong, but Boeing is not always right either... The 748 is not exactly selling well... A few freighters and a VIP plane that obviously was part of a 777 deal... Boeing loses some credibility if they can only sell the 748i as part of a 20 frame 777 deal.

Care to explain why SQ and EK have ripped on Airbus regarding the A350 as well as EK basically cancelling their A346HGW order?
"Up the Irons!"
 
ElVen
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:25 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:29 pm

My feeling is that Emirates will go ahead and accept the planes plus options since all their planning is already done for this very special aircraft.

It will not be a simple story to just cancel and order and receive something else instead. Emirates like Quantas and other carriers have invested heavily in soft and hard infrastucture in order to be able to accept and incorporate in their fleets the A380.

Now are they going to ask for compensation? offcourse they will, their biggest challenge though it will be to find the adequate number of aircraft to bridge the planned capacity requirement because as much as 20 550 seat long range aircraft will be missing from the system for one year.

This is less of a problem for SQ and QF as they can delay the retirement of the 744's from their fleets the same applies to LH and AF. Etihad and QR will have the same problems as EK to meet their plans.

...On the technical side

Wiring is not an easy item to cope with. Lots of research was done during the last years to limit the weight of the cables without making any compromises in the quality and specifications.

A large aircraft like the A380 is sensitive to flactuations of the weight of the wiring as it takes just too much of it. The delays might have being caused by a manufacturing shortage/problems in ultra-light hi tech cables.

Lets not forget that Boeing just for this reason is considering WiFi connections per seat for the entertainment system.That concerns at this stage the B787 project but i am sure that it will be extended to other A/c (777,747) if the suppliers manage to meet the requirements.

Just my opinion
ElVen
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:36 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 18):

I find that crazy, would share holders (and airlines) prefer to start deliveries of a plane that isn't quite fit to fly?

no..but shareholders expect anticipated results based numbers and figures given from Airbus management....and if they can't come through, then the stock should naturally take a hit....

obviously I'm glad that Airbus is taking the proper steps in dealing with this issue, as no one in their right mind would want to see a defective plane....

" Only nine of the aircraft are likely to be delivered in 2007, seriously affecting the financial results of the parent group, EADS said in a statement.
The group warned that operating profit would be cut by "about 500 million euros" ($625 million) per year between 2007 and 2010. "

www.marketwatch.com

that kills the P/E (price to earnings ratio of a stock)....
"Up the Irons!"
 
antskip
Posts: 829
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:36 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 20):
EK were waiting to see what Airbus brought to the table..

EK are not going to make Pan Am's mistake of remaining "loyal" to one plane maker. They will buy both the B787-10 and the A370, both a generation more able than the initial B787, two generations better than the trashed A350.
They are in no rush. When the right plane is available, at the right price, they will order a stack of them. They have plenty of B777's and A380's already in the pipeline.
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2562
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RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:39 pm

Even in industrial terms, a one year late delivery is totally unacceptable whatever the reason.

I wonder if EK (Tim Clark) is calling up Boeing now for more and/or accelerated deliveries on the 773ERs and RFP on the 748 for deliveries in 2010.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:39 pm

Quoting Antskip (Reply 23):
EK are not going to make Pan Am's mistake of remaining "loyal" to one plane maker. They will buy both the B787-10 and the A370, both a generation more able than the initial B787, two generations better than the trashed A350.
They are in no rush. When the right plane is available, at the right price, they will order a stack of them. They have plenty of B777's and A380's already in the pipeline.

that wasn't my point....at this point in time, the A370 isn't defined, and the previous A350 was sub-standard according to EK..

EK will buy the best plane offered..... EK isn't going to plunk down billions of dollars so they can say "we aren't loyal to one customer"
"Up the Irons!"
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:40 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 18):
I find that crazy, would share holders (and airlines) prefer to start deliveries of a plane that isn't quite fit to fly?

No, the shares tumbles because of the lower than expected earnings. That's how stock market works.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
AlanUK
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 26):
No, the shares tumbles because of the lower than expected earnings. That's how stock market works.

Than I wonder how much lower the earnings would be if the A380 crashed into the sea outside of Singapore airport, killing of 555 onboard, because a major aspect of let's say, hydraulic, was found (after months of investigation) to be faulty... But the rush to production prevented the fault of being spotted...

Would the stock market like that?
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 27):
Than I wonder how much lower the earnings would be if the A380 crashed into the sea outside of Singapore airport, killing of 555 onboard, because a major aspect of let's say, hydraulic, was found (after months of investigation) to be faulty... But the rush to production prevented the fault of being spotted...

Would the stock market like that?

It will tumble even further. I am confused what you are trying to say. I thought you were asking why the stock tumbles 18%. Of course it tumbles.

If let say you are expecting 10% return on your investment and you bought your stock in the begining of the year for $100. That means you expect $10 profit by the end of the year. The next day there's a news of the expected profit down by 50%, so you are going to get only $5. Would you have paid $100? No. Now you probably only want to pay $50, thus the stock price tumbles. (disclaimer: only for simple illustration, stock price calculation is much more complicated.)

So, the drop in stock price did not just forgive you because you are doing the right thing. It all comes down to how much return you expect from the company. If you expect lower return, the stock price declines.

Do you expect the investors will be joyous losing $2.6 billion in potential earnings, and thus rushing to buy more EADS stocks and drive the price up? Just look at it this way, by Airbus getting the the aircraft right and cost them money lowers the stock by 18%. If there's something wrong with the aircraft and the profit lost is let say $10 billion, the stock would probably tumble by 80%

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
AlanUK
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:03 pm

PP,

Thanks for the explanation, it's clear to me now.

I just feel that sometimes, share holders put money and profit before safety and long term company benefits... Just a greedy environment I guess...

Thanks again for the detailing though.  Smile
 
PolymerPlane
Posts: 832
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:17 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 29):
I just feel that sometimes, share holders put money and profit before safety and long term company benefits... Just a greedy environment I guess...

The one thing you should remember, the share holders does not actually run the company. The management is the one who make day to day decision on running the company thus the profit generated.

What shareholders do is putting pressure on the management to get the highest profit possibe. It is the management that usualy turns greedy. For example, in ENRON case, the ones that got the blame are the CEO, CFO and other high ranking management officers. In fact, the share holders are the ones who loses money, because of the drop in the stock price.

Share holders, especialy the long terms investors, want to see the company success in all aspects including safety, because that way in the long term their investment will be affected by the decisions taken by the management now. Say you invest in EADS right now, you really want the wrinkle in A380 is sorted before it EIS. If there's anything happen to A380 you will lose a lot of money instead of making money.

However, management has incentive to short term profit, because it makes them look good in the yearly review, and most of them only works in shorter timeframe than shareholders. They also have inside information, thus they can sell their stock before the price tumble, as what happened with ENRON.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 17):
So where is their big 787 order? It is nowhere.

 talktothehand   footinmouth 

fair use excerpt:

"Boeing Wins Singapore Airlines Order for 20 787-9s (Update4)

June 14 (Bloomberg) -- Boeing Co., the world's second- largest commercial plane maker, won an order for 20 787-9 planes from Singapore Airlines Ltd. worth an estimated $4.52 billion, dealing a setback to larger rival Airbus SAS. Boeing shares posted their biggest gain in almost a year.

The letter of intent signed by the airline also includes purchase rights to buy 20 more 787-9 planes, Singapore Airlines said in an e-mailed statement today. The carrier will take delivery of the aircraft between early 2011 and mid-2013.

The order reinforces Boeing's position as the the airlines' main supplier and strengthens its lead over Airbus in the market for midsized fuel-efficient planes. Airbus Chairman Gustav Humbert was counting on selling A350s to Singapore Airlines, the launch customer of the world's largest aircraft, the A380, to close the sales gap with the 787, designed to burn 20 percent less fuel."

rest of article at:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=av3drtDACfDo
"Up the Irons!"
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 17):
So where is their big 787 order? It is nowhere.

Be careful what you ask for! Big grin SQ has already spoken. Farnborough is right around the corner....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2787
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 17):
The 748 is not exactly selling well... A few freighters and a VIP plane that obviously was part of a 777 deal... Boeing loses some credibility if they can only sell the 748i as part of a 20 frame 777 deal.

748 - 19 in 6 months. Also they have a 63 plane backlog due to thier efforts to sell out 744 productions slots that was so successful they announced and increase in the 747 production rate of 50%.

159 in 6 years. That speaks for itself. You dont have a leg to stand on.

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 18):
find that crazy, would share holders (and airlines) prefer to start deliveries of a plane that isn't quite fit to fly?

Investments are about RETURN on investment. They dont give a rats ass about anything but the share price.

Quoting Joni (Reply 19):
Umm, this is still just a delay in delivering planes, not even delay in EIS. Let's see how you react when final 787 delays become known.

I don not agree. The EIS is a smokescreen. They are simply going to put the planes already built into service over the next 18 months.

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 29):
I just feel that sometimes, share holders put money and profit before safety and long term company benefits... Just a greedy environment I guess...

Again, they do not care about or have control over anything. They just invested money to make money, not lose 18%.

Correction, looks like EADS is off more than 20% now.

[Edited 2006-06-14 17:20:08]
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
I think it could turn out to be the 'end' of bigger things than just the A380.

No, the company won't go out of business...


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting CPairDC10 (Thread starter):
Any bets on the end of the programm before the plane is in service ???

If your largest and most important customer says you've got 6 months, thats how much life your program has left. Airbus as a whole would survive though.

Quoting Iwok (Reply 11):
What is so special about the 380 wiring that's going to lead to further delays and over $2B in losses?

I doubt it's an installation problem; mst likely something on the manufacturing end of the vendor. Perhaps a manufacturing defect by the supplier???

I also just found this scathing analyst qoute. I do not know anything of it's validity:

Both planes push the technological envelope. The size and scale of the A380 make it an unprecedented engineering challenge, while the 787 will be built using composite materials from suppliers around the world. Weight is an issue for both designs, which need to be as light as possible to make them fuel efficient.

"The A380 is still too heavy and they are blaming the electronics and the bundling of the in-flight entertainment equipment," said Doug McVitie, managing director of Arran Aerospace. "So they can't meet their performance guarantees."


http://custom.marketwatch.com/custom...E35F7-A91E-40D1-8B31-A135EFEA4D00}

[Edited 2006-06-14 19:08:45]
One Nation Under God
 
NASOCEANA
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:40 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 33):
Investments are about RETURN on investment. They dont give a rats ass about anything but the share price.

 checkmark  100% agree!
B777 greatest Airliner ever built!
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 15):
A program's death, after building 15 frames, doing world wide flying? Ridiculous, childish comment. That only flames up the annoying A<>B nonsense.

Well, they killed Concorde. How many in service vice how many initially ordered?

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 17):
So where is their big 787 order? It is nowhere

I believe that was answered already.

But the really big point has been sort of sidetracked here. EK will demand compensation, as will Singapore and Qantas and everyone else harmed by these delays. This will further set back the programs profitability....but Airbus is protected since they don't have to pay back their development loans unless they turn a profit. The investors should not worry too much.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1549
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting CPairDC10 (Reply 9):
Hope this doesnt happen to the 370 programm as id love to see this ordered in large numbers

It would be nice to see what the "370" actually is before we get excited about it's success. Right now we have no firm information on this proposed aircraft -- we don't even know it will be called the 370.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 33):
I don not agree. The EIS is a smokescreen. They are simply going to put the planes already built into service over the next 18 months.

Airbus has indicated that 15 380 frames are built (their press release) including the static and fatigue frames, so that leaves 13 built and 5 flying, including two with interiors fitted out. The 5th built will take 6 months getting completed so it can be delivered.

So they will be able to deliver only one in the next 6 months?!? And then only 9 in 2007, there are already 13 built, so it will take 18 months from now to get most of those completed. This is over a year after first flight.

I would assume that all of the air ducting is installed, so wiring for the interior is taking this long. Something seems quite fishy for this amount of time being spent to get the IFE correct.
 
SKA380
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:46 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 11):
What is so special about the 380 wiring that's going to lead to further delays and over $2B in losses?

I dont know if there's anything special about the wirings, but from what i hear around the contractors is that they are simply short of people.
We had in our company roughly 20 contracted sheet metal workers, and belive it or not, but almost all of them is gone to work for Airbus. It seems like Airbus has reached a point where they simply just cant get enough mechanics/avionics to build the A380 as fast as they want. I've even heard they are offering avionics to work 55 hours a week, while gettin payed for 70, just to get their hands on more avionic skilled people.
just my  twocents  based from what i've heard.

Leif
 
BoomBoom
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 11):
What is so special about the 380 wiring that's going to lead to further delays and over $2B in losses?

And if they can get it right for the first nine, why not the rest?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5179
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 27):

Than I wonder how much lower the earnings would be if the A380 crashed into the sea outside of Singapore airport, killing of 555 onboard, because a major aspect of let's say, hydraulic, was found (after months of investigation) to be faulty... But the rush to production prevented the fault of being spotted...

Would the stock market like that?

The market certainly would not. And instead of earnings, you would be talking of losses and looking at huge liabilities. And you couldn't put the blame on the share holders for that.

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 29):

I just feel that sometimes, share holders put money and profit before safety and long term company benefits... Just a greedy environment I guess...

That's the investors' job. Unfortunately, the airframer's management's job is to look after both. And sadly, that's just the way it is - money makes the world go round.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:25 am

the a380 was the wrong plane at the wrong time, born out of ego and nationalistic pride more than a sensible business strategy and good engineering.

if they can't overcome the wake turbulence issues, the a380 will do nothing to relieve slot restricted airports. if US airports continue to refuse to make accomodations for the a380, it will never crack its way into the world's largest market. delays are now pushing launch customers to radically re-arrange their long term business plans.

could this have been done any more poorly?

i want to make one thing clear -- the a380 is a remarkable technical acheivement, but it is not a remarkable business acheivement.

go ahead, flame me. but my long-standing opinion that the a380 was the wrong plane at the wrong time is now backed up by so many solid facts that it is difficult to refute.
 
airmailer
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:28 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 32):
Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 17):
So where is their big 787 order? It is nowhere.

Be careful what you ask for! SQ has already spoken. Farnborough is right around the corner....

Quick Nudelhirsch, ask for something else!!

Ask for a successful, economical Concorde replacement!!
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 19):
Let's see how you react when final 787 delays become known.

Dude what delays? Boeing isn't about to pull an Airbus. Do you have any verifiable sources, links, etc. that says the 787 is being or going to be delayed. Just because Airbus f**ked up on the A380 doesn't mean Boeing is going to screw th pooch on the 787. Get real.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
FCKC
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:09 am

We can all understand the nervosity of all airlines being affected with A380 EIS delay , but these airlines should not forget they already got a huge discount as being launch customers.
If they receive compensations (that is highly probable) , what they will have paid for this plane ?
They will have received one big plane for the price of a small one !!!!!!!!
Not bad !!!!!!!!!!
 
Rheinbote
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 9:30 pm

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 15):
There won't be massive cancellations.

You better start praying now...
 
katekebo
Posts: 678
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 12:02 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 46):
We can all understand the nervosity of all airlines being affected with A380 EIS delay , but these airlines should not forget they already got a huge discount as being launch customers.
If they receive compensations (that is highly probable) , what they will have paid for this plane ?
They will have received one big plane for the price of a small one !!!!!!!!
Not bad !!!!!!!!!!

Are you on Airbus management team? Your post certainly sounds like something that could come from them.

These airlines should be grateful to Airbus for giving them the privilege of buying this wonderful airplanes in the first place. Why don't they realize that Airbus can thrive on EU taxpayers money, and they don't need some stinky airline in Dubai or Singapore to buy their airplanes, right?
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Emirates Response.......

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:40 am

Wiring issues can be an absolute nightmare. Any wiring problems can be very difficult to trace, and a small short circuit can be very difficult to find in the miles of bundles the A380 has.

One of the forgotten issues in this thread is that Airbus decided to use aluminum wires for the A380. There are normally two types of wires used, copper or aluminum. The A380 is the first aircraft to use these aluminum wires.

What the difference between the two? To keep it simple, lets just say that if you want more reliable electrical connections, you only use copper.