UAL777UK
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KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:56 pm

Well, its now being discussed within the Skyteam group as oppsed to just on here!!

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...08_AAT006425&type=comktNews&rpc=44
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:59 pm

Question now is... What hub stays and what hub goes?
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
panamair
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:05 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Thread starter):
Well, its now being discussed within the Skyteam group as oppsed to just on here!!

Of course AF-KL would want such a merger - it would prevent them from having to choose between DL and NW as their key U.S. partner...it's easy for all these people (AF, KL, Minetta) to want such a merger because they don't have to deal with the horrible integration issues (not just of a DL-NW tieup but with any US airline merger in general), especially with disparate employee cultures, fleet issues, etc.
 
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litz
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:05 pm

If this were to happen, it would happen over a lot of people's kicking, screaming bodies ....

Other than a nice route overlap, there's just not much synergy there.

Different fleet types, way way different labor structures (nonunion labor and union labor mixed together is a bad, bad situation that's just too volatile to think about), different business models, just waaaaaaaay different pretty much alltogether.

Not to mention that DL has made it very clear that they intend to go it alone. and I'd be shocked if NW felt any different.

And yes, this has been discussed to death here ... general summary is : we'd believe it when we'd see it.

- litz
 
Joost
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:10 pm

It's one of the most obvious mergers in the US for a long time. Both are struggling and already have a very close cooperation, they codeshare on many routes, are both in SkyTeam, have transatlantic partners that already one entity.

Fleet commonality is hardly there, but with the number of aircraft both carriers are flying, this will not be an issue at all. And for replacement orders that will be shortly for both carriers (NW and the DC9s, DL with its 732s) they can have commonality advantages as they will be able to place a larger order.

For hubs, I would think that MEM and CVG will be downgraded to 'focus' cities. If the new DL-NW entity gets full ATI with KL-AF (that will be an important reason to merge), expect the MEM-AMS to be chopped in favour of more AMS-ATL flying and similarily, CDG-CVG will be reduced in order to boost CDG-DTW. It's a lot of rationalizing.

In my opinion, if both carriers can come to a good agreement, a merger can be a very good move; and this is the time: the economy is on it's way up, revenues will likely increase and this is very helpful to cover the enourmous costs of a merger; in order to be a more healthy and stable company once we have the economy slowing down again.
 
drerx7
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:13 pm

First of all--this KLM guy is no authority to run and say that the merger is 'a real possibility'. Such a merger would not make it past the US gov't without some serious shedding of mass on one or both DL/NW sides. He is merely postulating like we do on a.net.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
Joost
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibil

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting Litz (Reply 3):
Different fleet types

Not really an issue. A rule of thumb says that advantages of fleet commonality work up to 50 planes per type, after the 50th plane, incremental costs per extra plane remain similar. Both carriers have such a strong fleets that it is not really an issue, and as I said in my earlier post, they have enough replacement needs to increase buying power for replacements. (787 to replace DLs 767s in the longer term?) AF and KL also have different fleets especially on short-haul, and this also works out good.

Quoting Litz (Reply 3):
way way different labor structures (nonunion labor and union labor mixed together is a bad, bad situation that's just too volatile to think about),

Agreed, this is a real challenge. But didn't US and HP also differ very much on this aspect?

Quoting Litz (Reply 3):
different business models

In what sense? Both seem to be typical examples of network carriers, operating high-frequency flights with varying equipment from hubs. Both carriers are strong transatlantic players and offer connections from US to Europe. Both are old legacy carriers, now cutting costs everywhere they can. Again, to take the example of US-HP, their business models seemed to differ way more than NW and DL.

Quoting Litz (Reply 3):
Not to mention that DL has made it very clear that they intend to go it alone. and I'd be shocked if NW felt any different.

They aren't in Chapter 11 for nothing...
 
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibil

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 5):
First of all--this KLM guy is no authority to run and say that the merger is 'a real possibility'.

I might think that he has more information about what's discussed on management boards then we have?
 
nwab787techops
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:25 pm

I don't think we are going to see any mergers. DL and NW don't have the money to pay the bill, never mind the 100s of millons it would take for a merger. The only time you would see something like that, is if other airlines where in merger talks say CO and UA. Maybe you would see talks of a NW/DL merger, but even then I think AA would be first in line before DL in a merger to keep up with UA.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
I might think that he has more information about what's discussed on management boards then we have?

Exactly....one of the main reasons i started the thread!
 
ord
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting Nwab787techops (Reply 8):
DL and NW don't have the money to pay the bill, never mind the 100s of millons it would take for a merger.

DL and NW don't need the money for a merger. Investors foot the bill. That's exactly what happened with US Airways and America West.

Quoting Nwab787techops (Reply 8):
The only time you would see something like that, is if other airlines where in merger talks say CO and UA. Maybe you would see talks of a NW/DL merger, but even then I think AA would be first in line before DL in a merger to keep up with UA.

CO and UA have already had merger talks. Nobody knows how serious they are, but they have happened. Even industry guru Mike Boyd has said UA is positioning themselves to possibly merge with CO.

As for AA, I don't see them getting approval to merge with DL, NW or CO. When you look at the stats they are already so much larger than #2 UA. If they merged with another big airline I think they would simply be too large for the goverment to accept.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:39 pm

Fleets......The MD-80's are gone in favor of the newer scarebuses.
The DC-9 will be phased out slowly in favor of newer EM-175's or 190's.
Im not sure what will happen to the 737-800. Perhaps nothing.

Something big must go. We have 777.767,A330 and 747-400. All of these are
not needed.

Thats my uneducated guess.
Whats yours?
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
columba
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:42 pm

If true would that mean that this new airline would drop the A319/A320 and A330 ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
N801NW
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:49 pm

FWIW, Mr. van Wijk does have a seat on NWA's board of directors. If they come out with new post-reorganization NWA stock then a board reshuffle is possible.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 11):
Fleets......The MD-80's are gone in favor of the newer scarebuses.
The DC-9 will be phased out slowly in favor of newer EM-175's or 190's.
Im not sure what will happen to the 737-800. Perhaps nothing.

Something big must go. We have 777.767,A330 and 747-400. All of these are
not needed.

Thats my uneducated guess.
Whats yours?
safe

if it happened (and i pray to god it doesn't) fleet would probably become:

MD88s (or A319s but not A320s, DL loves their 738s)
737-800
757-200
757-300
767-300/300ER
767-400ER
777-200ER
747-400
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
nwab787techops
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:56 pm

If there is any truth in this, look who is going to be part of the new Delta family.

Big version: Width: 120 Height: 83 File size: 3kb
 
Joost
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
If true would that mean that this new airline would drop the A319/A320 and A330 ?

Highly unlikely. Those planes are new and they have lots of 'm. An airline won't go for fleet commonality just because it looks cool in the in-flight magazine. They fleet of 100+ Airbusses is that large that it already has all advantages of fleet commonality.

When you compare a fleet of 1 aircraft to a fleet of 20 aircraft, keeping 20 doesn't cost 20 times as much as keeping one, it will cost 15 or 16 or 17 times as much. So you have an advantage.

Keeping up a fleet of 200 identical aircraft costs twice as much as keeping 100 aircraft. There is no further advantage.

Example (numbers purely fictious)

Imagine you have 1 one aircraft, you will keep one spare landing gear in your inventory. You hardly ever need it, but in case you need it, you need to have it, as ordering a new one or reparing takes several days and you can't miss your plane for a week or so.

When you fly 20 aircraft, you can still do with one spare landing gear. It's is very unlikely that 2 aircraft have a broken gear exactly in the same week, so if one breaks down, you repair it or order a new one. Here you see a cost advantage.

When you fly 100 aircraft, it happens more often that the landing gears break, so you keep 5 gears in your inventory. There is no cost advantage over flying 100 aircraft and having 5 spare gears, or 20 aircraft or 1 spare gear.

Of course, numbers differ and the spare part / aircraft ratio differs from part to part. But in general, from 50 aircraft there are not so much further advantages in maintenance; there are when buying, though.

So for new airplanes as the 320s flying for NW or the 738s of Delta, replacement for the sake of commonality is a waste of money. When replacing the DC9s, MD80s, 737 first generations, etc by new A320/737NG/A320RS/737RS, commonality is available and you have more buying power when ordering 200 than when ordering 100.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 5):
First of all--this KLM guy is no authority to run and say that the merger is 'a real possibility'.

By the way, he also was the one that said KLM would 'reconsider' it's cooperation with NW after 2010 and hinted at going with Delta, along with AF. He and Spinetta wil also be the ones that will eventually make that decision. I would think that for NW it is a highly unfavourable situation to lose all the KLM feed...
 
mptpa
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:04 pm

Well.

Besides the uncommanility of the fleet types, it does offer some incentives:

Fleet:
- DC9/B737-200 - Gone. Replace with EMB195
- A320/319, B738 - Replace with just B737/8 or A320/19
- B757, B767, A330 - rationalize with B787
- B744, B777 - Rationalize/modernize with B748i and B773
- B72F - Replace with some rebuilt B744(F) and B77F

Hubs:
ATL, DTW, MSP - Keep
MEM, CVG, SLC - reduce to focus cities
JFK - Reduce to a super focus city, move most to DTW where the facility is MUCH better
NRT - make this more a super hub

NWA would operate and expand the Asia Pacific routes plus fortify the Cargo ops
DAL would be used to operate and expand the Europe, Middle east, Africa routes using CDG and AMS and hubs
 
Alitalia744
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 17):
JFK - Reduce to a super focus city, move most to DTW where the facility is MUCH better

I'll disagree and say JFK would be kept over MSP.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
incitatus
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 6):
Not really an issue. A rule of thumb says that advantages of fleet commonality work up to 50 planes per type, after the 50th plane, incremental costs per extra plane remain similar.

That rule of thumb is not accurate.

Just consider two airlines. One Southwest style with 400 737-700s. The other has 50 737-700s, 50 737-200s, 50 A320s, 50 757s, 50 E-195s, 50 F100s, 50 DC9s and 50 Tu-204s.

Do I need to elaborate further?
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positiverate
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Thread starter):
Well, its now being discussed within the Skyteam group as oppsed to just on here!!

Oh boy...another NW/DL merger thread.

His comments hardly qualify as "being discussed within the SkyTeam Group". It's just speculation by one executive within the group. In meetings on Capitol Hill Gerry Grinstein told policymakers and their staff that he would work to avoid a merger because it is so tough on the company integration wise.

[Edited 2006-06-14 16:34:00]
 
DL787932ER
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibil

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm

Of course, seeing one of these has a unique appeal:



But I agree it seems unlikely, mainly because of the labor force integration problems. The completely disparate fleets (except for the 752) would work themselves out over time (in ten years, something like E190/737NNG/752/753/788/789/(something bigger?)). But integrating NW's unions with DL's mostly nonunion employees, especially with NW's current labor issues (it's pretty bad when one has to call a "truce" with one's own employer), is a scary prospect.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
Joost
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 19):
Do I need to elaborate further?

Yes please. Your example is not close to the situation drawn here. Of course, a 737-200 or a DC-9 will have higher operating cost than a 737-700.

Consider two airliens:
one flying 50 737-700s and 50 A319s
one other flying 100 737-700s.

Between them, the costs won't differ by hugh numbers.
 
MEA-707
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:30 pm

I believe they secretly work together much more then they would make believe to the anti trust patrol. Apart from the obvious codeshares, they announced Chapter 11 on the same moment last year. My guts feelings say there is a merger being prepared behind the scenes
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
incitatus
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 22):
Yes please. Your example is not close to the situation drawn here. Of course, a 737-200 or a DC-9 will have higher operating cost than a 737-700.

Consider two airliens:
one flying 50 737-700s and 50 A319s
one other flying 100 737-700s.

Between them, the costs won't differ by hugh numbers.

You are just looking at the parts inventory management aspect of the problem. And even with the 100/50-50 Boeing/Airbus case inventory management and maintenance won't look pretty. A large share of aircraft parts are what is called slow moving parts - they sit in inventory for a long time and demand is very random. Two fleets = duplicaton. Also... in this case Boeing does not use the metric system and Airbus does - more training for maintenance crews.

Besides parts management and maintenance, the mixed fleet will introduce additional complications in scheduling, crew training, revenue management and pricing, and recovery from weather disruptions. In short, don't do it.
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1337Delta764
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:36 pm

I hope this NEVER happens, no matter what Joost says. The cold hard fact is that mixing the fleets would be a disaster.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Nwab787techops (Reply 15):
If there is any truth in this, look who is going to be part of the new Delta family.

What makes you think the "Delta" name will survive?

What makes you think "Steenland" would still be there?

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
milesrich
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:39 pm

While the 737/800 and A-320/319 are competing types, the airlines own enough of both to keep them rather than dump them. The savings would be in eliminating CVG, and MEM and filling mainline equipment through DTW and ATL rather than flying 50 seat RJ's from the hubs like they do now. JFK, MSP, and SLC would remain as well, and LAX would get a boost too. The MD-88's at the current lease rates, would stay. As far as the DC-9's, they are owned, and are still cheaper to operate with 80% load factors, than 50 seat RJ's.
 
slider
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 5):
First of all--this KLM guy is no authority to run and say that the merger is 'a real possibility'.

Exactly right- it's not a terribly responsible thing to say, to incite all sorts of hysteria, tension or investor unease as a third party, albeit one with a vested interest.

Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
I might think that he has more information about what's discussed on management boards then we have?

Sure he does. All the more reason for him to zip the lip.

Quoting ORD (Reply 10):
Investors foot the bill.

Or suckers, depending in your point of view.

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 17):
SLC - reduce to focus cities

If SLC is the only western US hub, they wouldn't scuttle it.
 
Joost
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
In short, don't do it.

I don't totally disagree on you  Smile My main point is that when mixing a fleet of 100+ 737s and 100+ 320s, replacing one of them with something new way before a planned retirement date is a waste of money.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 25):
I hope this NEVER happens, no matter what Joost says. The cold hard fact is that mixing the fleets would be a disaster.

Mixing fleets is the least of the challenges. Company culture, unions, pensions, employees - that's way more of a challenge. Aircraft don't have opinions and you don't have discussions with aircraft. Aircraft don't change their opinion from time to time. People do. That is the difficult thing of mixing people  Smile
 
jacobin777
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibil

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
If true would that mean that this new airline would drop the A319/A320 and A330 ?

I would hope not..those NW A330's are beauties...and like AF/KL, both have a lot of Boeing and Airbus in their fleets, with KL basically having an "all Boeing fleet" (besides their beautiful A330's) and AF having a large Airbus fleet with the A320/A330 and soon to be coming, though delayed A380

not to mention, who can get rid of such a beautiful plane from their fleet?


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Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 14):
MD88s (or A319s but not A320s, DL loves their 738s)
737-800
757-200
757-300
767-300/300ER
767-400ER
777-200ER
747-400

add NW's 787 order. Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:11 am

One thing that no one is realizing is. Is the Bankrupcty process being used to make the companies more compatible? To get ride of the "non" compatible issues. I think NWA and Delta would be one strong competitor and that the employees would mesh well. It is all about respect. Respect for where you have come from and where you are going . NWA has options and orders for over 50 787's. The fleets match a lot more than you think they would. Looking to the future. My opinion is optimistic. It would be good for the employees and the companies. As far as money goes. Please, even though Air France can't put all the money in. One of their U.S. Banker friends can. NWA and Delta employees already are joking and laughing about the merger and talk all the time on the crew buses to hotels and in airports. With respect it will work and work well. Both groups understand what must be done to secure their futures. Just look at all the sacrifices both groups have made and are continueing to iron out.

Safe Flying  

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No Da Airlines. "America's premiere hip hop airline."

Everywhere Air. "You buy we fly!"

TransGlobal. "Welcome to our backyard"





[Edited 2006-06-14 17:13:41]

[Edited 2006-06-14 17:15:58]
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
panamair
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 17):
JFK - Reduce to a super focus city, move most to DTW where the facility is MUCH better

No way..just because the facility is nicer at one doesn't mean that the airline should give up the world's largest airline passenger traffic market (the NYC area), especially when the carrier has a 30 gate facility there. How could DTW ever dream of generating even half the amount of traffic that NYC has to places like NCE, VCE, KBP, BUD, SVO, etc.??
 
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STT757
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 1):
Question now is... What hub stays and what hub goes?

Out:

Cincinnati, Memphis, Salt Lake City

In:

Detroit, Atlanta, Minneapolis, JFK, Narita
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 32):
No way..just because the facility is nicer at one doesn't mean that the airline should give up the world's largest airline passenger traffic market (the NYC area), especially when the carrier has a 30 gate facility there. How could DTW ever dream of generating even half the amount of traffic that NYC has to places like NCE, VCE, KBP, BUD, SVO, etc.??

Ah, someone who understands O and D traffic and the cash that goes with it.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
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STT757
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:18 am

The minute a merger involving DL, NWA or AA is announced CO and UAL will announce their merger.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
drerx7
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
The minute a merger involving DL, NWA or AA is announced CO and UAL will announce their merger.

My sentiments exactly.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
The minute a merger involving DL, NWA or AA is announced CO and UAL will announce their merger.

Definitely agree with that.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 33):
Out:

Cincinnati, Memphis, Salt Lake City

In:

Detroit, Atlanta, Minneapolis, JFK, Narita

Would agree with that, except for SLC. While there would no noubt be overlap between SLC and MSP, SLC still is better positioned as a true Western hub that DL/NW would need, a role that MSP could not fulfill.
Of course, they could increase flying from LAX and rebuild the Western hub (finally, I'd say), but then there are too many communities served from SLC that would not be viable from LAX, never mind lack of landing rights at an already congested airport.
 
panamair
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 31):
It would be good for the employees and the companies.

As long as the non-union DL employees (which are the majority of the DL employees) don't get dumped to the bottom of the seniority list just because they're currently non-union....
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:11 am

As for hubs:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 33):
Out:

Cincinnati, Memphis, Salt Lake City

In:

Detroit, Atlanta, Minneapolis, JFK, Narita

I disagree slightly
IN:
ATL: This has been DL turf for a LONG time and they are big.
DTW: This will be the largest interior O&D market.
JFK: The International world-port for Europe and Asia.
MSP: Another important upper-midwest hub with some International connections.
SLC: What was once Western Airlines is still very important to DL, and with DEN safely in the hands of UA, this is the best "center-west" market to hub out of for the merged carrier. It is also growing significantly in O&D numbers.
LAX: This was a big Western Airlines city once upon a time and the best airport to operate west coast connections to the Far East. This has become the JFK of the west coast.
NRT: NWs far east hub will be pivotal for a merged carrier in an area of the world growing in importance and revenue potential.
Significant Focus cities:
PDX: After LAX the most important west coast market for a merged DL/NW.
TPA, FLL, MCO, JAX: DL has dominated the Florida O&D market for a long time.
BOS: The remnants of Northeast Airlines has made this an important focus city for DL as well.
OUT:
CVG: This is made redundant by DTW being not far away up I-75. It is also a diminishing market O&D wise, much the way PIT has been for US.
MEM: The proximity of ATL makes this operation redundant as well. It is the smallest significant hub for O&D numbers of the two carriers. FedEx will keep MEM going however.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 37):
Would agree with that, except for SLC. While there would no doubt be overlap between SLC and MSP, SLC still is better positioned as a true Western hub that DL/NW would need, a role that MSP could not fulfill.
Of course, they could increase flying from LAX and rebuild the Western hub (finally, I'd say), but then there are too many communities served from SLC that would not be viable from LAX, never mind lack of landing rights at an already congested airport.

Very well said! The overlap between SLC and MSP would only be slight at best with a small handful of network connections that DC/Skywest in SLC would transfer to the NW MSP operation.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
bobnwa
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 39):
I disagree slightly
IN:
ATL: This has been DL turf for a LONG time and they are big.
DTW: This will be the largest interior O&D market.
JFK: The International world-port for Europe and Asia.
MSP: Another important upper-midwest hub with some International connections.
SLC: What was once Western Airlines is still very important to DL, and with DEN safely in the hands of UA, this is the best "center-west" market to hub out of for the merged carrier. It is also growing significantly in O&D numbers.
LAX: This was a big Western Airlines city once upon a time and the best airport to operate west coast connections to the Far East. This has become the JFK of the west coast.
NRT: NWs far east hub will be pivotal for a merged carrier in an area of the world growing in importance and revenue potential.
Significant Focus cities:
PDX: After LAX the most important west coast market for a merged DL/NW.
TPA, FLL, MCO, JAX: DL has dominated the Florida O&D market for a long time.
BOS: The remnants of Northeast Airlines has made this an important focus city for DL as well.
OUT:
CVG: This is made redundant by DTW being not far away up I-75. It is also a diminishing market O&D wise, much the way PIT has been for US.
MEM: The proximity of ATL makes this operation redundant as well. It is the smallest significant hub for O&D numbers of the two carriers. FedEx will keep MEM going however.

That is a good re-cap of the hub situation and very likely right in the event of a hook-up. You could also add AMS and CDG.
 
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airzim
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 31):
Delta Orient Airlines. (DOA) "Where is the world would you like to go?"

I think DOA means Dead on Arrival!

Plus everyone's forgot about the AMS hub. Does it make more sense for DL to move their India flights to AMS or NW to move their India flights to CDG. Or maybe continue to keep them seperate.

Within 5 years one of these mergers will take place. Question is who's first?
 
slider
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 31):
Delta Orient Airlines. (DOA) "Where is the world would you like to go?"

DOA might be an appropriate acronym for such a union.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 42):
I think DOA means Dead on Arrival!

Just when I thought no one on Anet had any humor in them indeed.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:48 am

Click here for bigger photo!
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibil

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 5):
First of all--this KLM guy is no authority to run and say that the merger is 'a real possibility'.

No he isn't, you're right. But I think the Dutch people who copied his words got the meaning of the word 'optie' wrong. What Leo van Wijk, CEO of KLM, wants to say that he thinks it would not be a bad idea. We all want NW and DL to overcome their problems, and KLM is a very interested party as her network is a feeder for NW's AMS hub and vv, NW gives KL at AMS 12 widebodies a day to repart all over Europe. So that's why we all and van Wijk foremost are thinking of ways to get the airlines out of trouble.

[Edited 2006-06-14 18:53:13]
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toltommy
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 3):
Different fleet types, way way different labor structures (nonunion labor and union labor mixed together is a bad, bad situation that's just too volatile to think about), different business models, just waaaaaaaay different pretty much alltogether.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Can you say DL/PA? Wasn't fun back then at all.
 
Airline7322
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:54 am

This seems to be a lively discussion. I'm one of the producers of an aviation based podcast (see site-related forum for more info), and I'm interested in using your opinions in one of the segments. If you'd like to be on the show, call this voicemail number (206-350-7526) and record a short message, stating your opinion on the possibility of a NW/Delta merger.
For more info: http://members.cox.net/aeroposte/Welcome.html
"Good ideas must be driven into practice with courageous patience."
 
7e72004
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RE: KLM Chief Say NW And DL Merger A Real Possibility!

Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:06 am

why would you want to downgrade SLC? If you did that there would be no hub west of MSP.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!