mham001
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Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:51 pm

By Joshua Fellman
June 15 (Bloomberg) -- Air China Ltd., the nation's biggest overseas
carrier, signed an order to buy 24 Airbus SAS A320 aircraft for
about $1.74 billion for delivery between 2007 and 2010, the Chinese
carrier said in a statement.

The purchase is part of China's 150-plane order from Airbus first
announced on Dec. 5 last year and logged on the European
manufacturer's 2005 books.
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:02 pm

Here's a link:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...00080&sid=af8JcBloAKQ0&refer=asia[

The Bloomberg piece doesn't say that this is part of the order for 150 signed at the last minute in December. I think we need to get some additional confirmation that this isn't a new order or a renegotiation. If it isn't, there has been some pretty serious cooking of the books going on.
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flyingdoctorwu
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:02 pm

That's a rather biased manner of reporting this information......

Nonetheless that means that Airbus still has another 126 A320 series orders coming from China this year (that they cannot or shouldnt count torwards this year's totals.)
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:05 pm

Source


here's your source for out of 150 package announced last year
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:14 pm

It appears the link posted for Bloomberg is outdated, but I cannot find the updated link. However, Forbes is reporting the same news:

HONG KONG (XFN-ASIA) - Mainland flag carrier Air China Ltd said it will acquire 24 Airbus 320-series aircraft as part of an earlier agreement involving the airline's fleet expansion signed last year.

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2006/06/14/afx2816412.html
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:33 pm

Calm down folks. This is exactly how Airbus has handled their previous Chinese "bulk orders". yes 

If you check Airbus's O&D spreadsheet the initial 150 order is shown as being CASC. As the individual airlines take their allocation, the numbers will be reduced from CASC and added to the airline. Next month's O&D spreadsheet will show CASC down to 126 and Air China will show the 24 from this announcement.

No "truth" has been revealed. No new orders will be added. There's no cooking of the books. Get over it! sarcastic 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:46 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 5):
If you check Airbus's O&D spreadsheet the initial 150 order is shown as being CASC. As the individual airlines take their allocation, the numbers will be reduced from CASC and added to the airline. Next month's O&D spreadsheet will show CASC down to 126 and Air China will show the 24 from this announcement.

Thank you Scbriml I've spent most of the day trying to get that point across but no-one semed to believe me and the threads got deleted which really got up my goat because all I had done was post fact's instead unfounded allegations. But the orders will appear under their CASC 2005 order date. So nothing to add to the totals this year.

Anyway I found another forum and I'll be interested to see how those whom can't look forward will respond when they see the fact's.

There are 9 x A319 orders listed by Airbus for Air China, it should be noted that these 9 frames are not part of the 150 Framework Agreement so you're right, 126 to go and feel we'll see a few more announcements prior to and after Farnborough.

I'm just pleased to see that we're seeing the breakdown between the 6 carriers which will be getting them

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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:19 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 6):
Thank you Scbriml I've spent most of the day trying to get that point across but no-one semed to believe me and the threads got deleted which really got up my goat because all I had done was post fact's instead unfounded allegations. But the orders will appear under their CASC 2005 order date. So nothing to add to the totals this year.

I know that, you know that, quite a few others know it as well. Unfortunately, the Airbus bashers are having a good time of it recently and won't let a little thing like facts get in the way of a good bash session.
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:49 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
I know that, you know that, quite a few others know it as well. Unfortunately, the Airbus bashers are having a good time of it recently and won't let a little thing like facts get in the way of a good bash session.

Because Boeing didn't do it this way and thus "lost" last years race despite booking more orders using their method of counting. Airbus only booked more orders by counting the 150 A320s without having carriers attached.

Is it semantics? Yes.

But considering how Airbus went about it, and the PR they had surrounding it, it sure seems rigged to a layman who doesn't understand why Airbus can do no wrong...
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Because Boeing didn't do it this way and thus "lost" last years race despite booking more orders using their method of counting. Airbus only booked more orders by counting the 150 A320s without having carriers attached.

Is it semantics? Yes.

But considering how Airbus went about it, and the PR they had surrounding it, it sure seems rigged to a layman who doesn't understand why Airbus can do no wrong...

And did they win a big price for that? No. So what?
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:46 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
But considering how Airbus went about it, and the PR they had surrounding it, it sure seems rigged to a layman who doesn't understand why Airbus can do no wrong...

...And Boeing would be able to include orders they received in 2004 in their account for 2005 which Airbus wouldn't as they already had counted them in 2004. What is important is that each of the two counts their China orders in a consistent way year after year.

Get over it! Why do you never grow up? This "misplaced sports fan mentality" that considers A & B as football teams is childish at best.

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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:02 pm

No matter what Airbus or Boeing does with the numbers, in the end, someone will sell more planes than the other. Boeing is conservative being in a tough stock market. Airbus is not. You will also notice Airbus regularly reports many more cancellations than Boeing. In the end, either approach is acceptable as long as they remain consistent although I like the Boeing approach more.

Airbus loses 10 points for style for their pompous year end declarations of beating Boeing when everyone knows its just an accounting win. It all comes home to roost this year with Boeing selling some 400 plus planes to Airbus's 80 plus planes.
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:35 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 10):
...And Boeing would be able to include orders they received in 2004 in their account for 2005 which Airbus wouldn't as they already had counted them in 2004.

If I may correct you sir but you are wrong. Boeing announced Hapag Lloyd on January 6 2005 and acknowledged the order was placed in December 2004 which meant they didn't count them in their 2005 totals

"The order is valued at $655 million at list prices. Hapag-Lloyd begins taking delivery during the first quarter of 2006. The orders, signed in late December, are accounted for in Boeing's 2004 sales figures."

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q1/nr_050106g.html

The same applies to Bavaria Leasing announced January 12 2005

Delivery of the airplanes begins in 2005 and extends through 2007. All six airplanes were previously accounted for in 2004 Boeing order tallies, although not announced.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q1/nr_050112g.html

So as you can see there is total transparency in the way Boeing have logged the orders to which you refer and I will respectfully disagree with the quote of yours I listed above.

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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 12):
If I may correct you sir but you are wrong. Boeing announced Hapag Lloyd on January 6 2005 and acknowledged the order was placed in December 2004 which meant they didn't count them in their 2005 totals

eh... I cannot follow you here. What does Hapag Lloyd have to do with China? The discussion was about how the Chinese orders are being counted. When the order is booked with the central government (as Airbus) or when the order is later distributed between the local Chinese carriers (as Boeing). If you count the orders from China early you cannot count them later as well and visa versa - so Boeing in 2005 might have been able to take advantage of counting orders recived from the central government in 2004 as they became distributed in 2005 to local Chinese airlines. Something Airbus could not have done as they have counteded their orders for that year with the central government already in 2004.

Abba
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting Abba (Reply 13):
eh... I cannot follow you here. What does Hapag Lloyd have to do with China?

Everything, I read your following statement as inferring that Boeing were including booked orders in 2004 in their 2005 totals

Quoting Abba (Reply 10):
...And Boeing would be able to include orders they received in 2004 in their account for 2005 which Airbus wouldn't as they already had counted them in 2004.

That statement, to me, is a clear inference that Boeing were double counting orders and I responded with evidence that they do not do so. I rebuked your implication in the interests of clarity sir.

As for China, Boeing received an LoI for 70 plus a "verbal commitment" for another 80 in 2005. They booked 50 in December 2005 as follows;

11 x 73G for CZ
9 x 738 for CZ
10 x 738 for Xiamen
5 x 738 for Shanghai
3 x 73G for China Eastern
1 x 738 for China Eastern
6 x 738 for Hainan
5 x 738 for Shenzhen

The other 20 were booked this year as follows

10 for Air China
4 for Hainan
6 for Shandong

All 70 accounted for with another 80 to come.

As for Airbus, the announcements we now see are confirmation of the transactions between the the CASC and the various airlines. 24 announced by Air China and 126 to go. Be interesting to see the final breakdown. Of Note Air China and China Eastern have also booked some of the 80 outstanding Boeing orders too.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 14):
That statement, to me, is a clear inference that Boeing were double counting orders and I responded with evidence that they do not do so. I rebuked your implication in the interests of clarity sir.

NOT AT ALL. You seem not to understand how the Chinese aviation market works. So let me explain this as this market operates rather differently from the rest of the world.

You must first understand that an order with a Chinese airline is not placed directly with that particular airline. An order is always placed with the central Chinese government. This means that there is a fair bit of foreign and trade policy involved in this whole thing and that you will often see that airline contracts are signed at official meetings. You will also see that - over time - Airbus and Boeing seems to get about 1/2 of the Chinese market each and that orders suddenly can become much less if a political leader of the US or Europe says something that the Chinese leadership does not like. It happened to Bush/Boeing last year (even if the shortfall seems to have been made up later).

To what extent the Chinese airlines actually have a say in what planes they are to operate is difficult to say for an outsider. My guess - based on almost 13 years living in Hong Kong - is that these deals might be done in a kind of dialogue between the central government and the airlines through which a compromise is reached allowing for the central government to achieve its political goals and the airlines to get - more or less - the kind of equipment they want. Nevertheless, you will see many Chinese carriers such as China Southern flying both 737s and 320...

Now, after an order is placed with the central government, the next step is for that order to be divided between the airlines that are to operate the the aircrafts so ordered. At this stage new contracts is being signed with the individual airlines and my guess is that at this stage special requirements for the different airlines are being negotiated and put on paper.

Now, this systems allows for two different ways of counting China orders which will put the orders in different years as this process takes time. You might count an order at the time the first contract being signed with the central government - with pomp and circumstances - during a summit of a kind. This is what Airbus is doing, but not Boeing. This means that when both Airbus and Boeing both signed contracts with the central Chinese government in 2005 only Airbus counted those orders in their 2005 account. Boeing didn't.

However, it is important to understand that the story does not stop here (as some seems to believe). Because as Boeing is taking another approach to this and counting the orders - not when the contract is signed with the central government - but when contracts are signed with the individual airlines they would have had quite a few frames to count in 2005 that is covered by contracts signed with the central government in 2004 - just as Boeing will have quite a few airplanes to count in 2006 that are covered by their contracts with the central government in 2005. These orders will Boeing count as they haven’t counted them before. Airbus wouldn’t as they have already counted them.

So my point is: the disadvantage for Boeing (relative to Airbus) in NOT counting the central government orders in 2005 is balanced by them counting the individual airline contracts this year that is covered by central government contracts signed in 2004 (or before or in early 2005 for that matter). Neither Boeing nor Airbus is counting their orders with China twice. They only count them at different stages in the process and as long as they keep counting consistently, comparison is fair as any advantages or disadvantages of the two methods is being balanced over time.

Is the point clearer now?


Abba
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Abba (Reply 15):
NOT AT ALL.

Respectfully Abba, please read your quote again. The impliction you were trying to make, in response to the othe member, is clear and I clarified it. If we disagree, then so be it.

Quoting Abba (Reply 15):
You seem not to understand how the Chinese aviation market works. So let me explain this as this market operates rather differently from the rest of the world.

I believe I understand perfectly how it works, more so than most. Look back over my previous posts and you will see that I knew exactly why China ordered 70 + 80 737s whilst going the whole 150 A32X with Airbus.

Please, and again with respect, spare me the lecture because I do undertsand what I'm talking about, some others, seemingly don't. That is not to question your 13 years in HK. But I do understand that both Boeing and Airbus operate under different Regulatory enviroments and book their orders under different circumstances. Fact is that if you check any of the Boeing orders placed this year under the second tranche of 80 they (the respective airline) state that an "umbrella" agreement covers the "Material Transaction" notification rules as governed by the HKSE

Here's an excerpt from Air China which covers some from the 2006 agreement

"On April 19 2006 the Company announced that on the same date the Company and the AIE entered into the Boeing Aircraft Purchase agreement with the Boeing Company, pursuant to which the Company has agreed to purchase 15 Boeing 737 Aircraft from the Boeing Company.
The Boeing Aircraft Purchase Agreement was entered into a framework agreement entered into between the Boeing Company and the China Aviation Supllies Import and Export Group Corporation on April 11th 2006 (the 2006 Framework Agreement)"


Source: Air China Filing http://www.hkse.com

The same could be asked of China Eastern and 15 737s ordered at the same time only in this case, as they bought 4 in 2005, they refer to a 2005 "umbrella agreement" implemented as they knew they would place an order and another filing in 2006. They save on legal fee's by doing that.

If these were agreed to on those dates, why are they not yet listed on Boeing's site, even as UFO?

Abba I shall refer you to the following which I have already posted in this thread.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 6):
Thank you Scbriml I've spent most of the day trying to get that point across but no-one seemed to believe me and the threads got deleted which really got up my goat because all I had done was post fact's instead unfounded allegations. But the orders will appear under their CASC 2005 order date. So nothing to add to the totals this year.

I am not questioning the validity of the orders at all, I have stated in the same reply that I am pleased we are finally starting to see the breakdown between carriers from the agreement. It's just that these go under last year and the Airbus "PR" machine will do their utmost to imply these are "new", which is what they are not. If it was Boeing, I would be saying exactly the same thing which is why I used HKSE filings to question why firmed orders with Chinese carriers, which you state is how Boeing book them, have yet to appear on Boeing's website.

Quoting Abba (Reply 15):
Is the point clearer now?

Again, with respect, no clarification was needed from my perspective and I thank you for the conversation.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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flyingdoctorwu
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:07 pm

I think myself that it is ore appropriate to count the orders when they are firmed up with the respective airlines... at that point the manufacturer (Boeing or Airbus) knows some very important things:
1) which airline is recieving the plane
2) exactly what plane they are delivering
3) and when they will be delivering such plane...

just counting the umbrella agreement means nothing because the manufactor doesn't know any of those points
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting FlyingDoctorWu (Reply 17):
just counting the umbrella agreement means nothing because the manufactor doesn't know any of those points

I suggest you read Abbas reply #15 as he explains it well enough. The umbrella agreements I refer to are specifically in relation to Material impact statements for filings with the HKSE of which most Chinese carriers are listed on. The term I believe you meant to use was Framework Agreement which are those entered into between the respective OEM and the CASC.

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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 18):
I suggest you read Abbas reply #15 as he explains it well enough. The umbrella agreements I refer to are specifically in relation to Material impact statements for filings with the HKSE of which most Chinese carriers are listed on. The term I believe you meant to use was Framework Agreement which are those entered into between the respective OEM and the CASC.

Doess this umbrella agreement include the CASC putting deposit for the plane?

Cheers,
PP

[Edited 2006-06-16 06:49:23]

[Edited 2006-06-16 06:49:49]
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 19):
this umbrella agreement includes the CASC putting deposit for the plane?

Yes, the CASC have placed a deposit, the Airline is informed of their allocation and factor it into their filing.

Off to the World Cup if you will excuse me.

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707lvr
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:52 pm

I have a feeling we will be having this same debate in June, 2007 after Airbus counts these 150 aircraft as 2006 orders.
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:07 pm

Quoting FlyingDoctorWu (Reply 17):
2) exactly what plane they are delivering

Check Airbus's O&D spreadsheet for an exact breakdown of the CASC 150 order in to A319s, A320s & A321s. It's been there since the order was booked.

Quoting FlyingDoctorWu (Reply 17):
just counting the umbrella agreement means nothing because the manufactor doesn't know any of those points

It does. A contract is signed and deposits paid. It's a firm order.

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 21):
I have a feeling we will be having this same debate in June, 2007 after Airbus counts these 150 aircraft as 2006 orders.

As I clearly explained above, Airbus doesn't count these orders twice. But of course if you have a single shed of evidence that Airbus has counted an order twice, I'm sure you'd be delighted to share it with us here..... I won't hold my breath! wink 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:10 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 16):
Respectfully Abba, please read your quote again. The impliction you were trying to make, in response to the othe member, is clear and I clarified it. If we disagree, then so be it.

I think that we are somehow misunderstanding each other (even if I still do not understand what the HKSE has to do with this discussion. Neither Airbus nor Boing is - to my knowledge - under HKSE rules when it comes to how they count their orders...)

OK - If I have expressed myself a little unclear then I can change this

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 12):
Quoting Abba (Reply 10):
...And Boeing would be able to include orders they received in 2004 in their account for 2005 which Airbus wouldn't as they already had counted them in 2004.

To

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 12):
Quoting Abba (Reply 10):
...And Boeing would be able to include orders they received under an umbrella agreement with the central government in 2004 in their account for 2005 where they became distributed to individual airlines which Airbus wouldn't as Airbus already had counted them in 2004 when they signed the umbrella agreement with the Chinese government.

To put it simple: Both Boeing and Airbus count their orders ONCE even if they do not count them at the same stage in the process. But they are all counted.

Abba
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 22):
Quoting 707lvr (Reply 21):
I have a feeling we will be having this same debate in June, 2007 after Airbus counts these 150 aircraft as 2006 orders.

As I clearly explained above, Airbus doesn't count these orders twice. But of course if you have a single shed of evidence that Airbus has counted an order twice, I'm sure you'd be delighted to share it with us here..... I won't hold my breath!

Sorry, I should have been more clear. It doesn't matter. The entire process has become a circus.
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:13 am

The whole issue is spin, and it is very confusing.

My feeling is that Airbus plays games with their order book. It also doesn't help that press releases are made, and the 'news' is carried by Bloomberg, Reuters, AP and the like.

Just take a look at the news quoted at the start of this thread:

The purchase is part of China's 150-plane order from Airbus first
announced on Dec. 5 last year and logged on the European
manufacturer's 2005 books.


How can you purchase 24 airplanes that were already part of a 150 plane order? It makes it look like there were 2 orders, one for 24 planes, and one for 150 planes.

Really all this is is an allocation of 24 units that are part of a 150 plane order.

Thus the press release should read something like "Today Air China and Airbus announced that the chinesse carrier would be taking delivery of 24 planes from an order of 150 planes from CASC..."

Sure, Airbus is not counting the orders twice, in terms of what the actual outstanding order count is, but they are playing with the public, making it appear that they are selling more planes than they really are.
 
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:36 am

Shell games are shell games folks. You can only count an order ONCE. Airbus counted this order last year. It goes towards last years order "win" and not this years. Right now the Airbus boys have bigger problems with the A350/370 fiasco and the 380 turmoil.
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:14 am

Abba

Thank you for a qualified response and for stating that there may be a misunderstanding. This forum is for learning and discussion so in the interests of clarity let's keep going. Perhaps the reason I misunderstood and mentioned Hapag Lloyd and Bavaria Leasing was because you refer to 2004. The A32X and B737 orders we are discussing are from 2005 and 2006.

Quoting Abba (Reply 23):
even if I still do not understand what the HKSE has to do with this discussion. Neither Airbus nor Boing is - to my knowledge - under HKSE rules when it comes to how they count their orders...)

It actually has an impact as it highlights the different way in which Airbus and Boeing book their orders with China. As you previously stated;

Quoting Abba (Reply 15):
Now, after an order is placed with the central government, the next step is for that order to be divided between the airlines that are to operate the the aircrafts so ordered.

Therein lies the difference between the way the two OEMs account for the booking of their orders. Airbus in 2005 booked the Framework Agreement with the CASC in one go. Rightfully so given the CASC placed the appropriate deposit to enable them to book the order. Boeing had a similar agreement for 70 plus a "verbal agreement" for 80 more, booked 50, carried over 20 into 2006 as the airlines had not finalised their orders and entered into another Framework Agreement for 80 in 2006. For both OEMs the orders will only be booked once.

However, given the compexity of the contracts (and politics) it can take some time for the order with the actual airline to be booked. This is why Boeing prefer to wait until the final negotiations with the respective carrier are completed before booking the order, thus the breakdown which I listed above. Boeing are abiding by Corporate Governance proceedures to the letter.

It is at that point which most of the Chinese carriers which are listed on the HKSE have to disclose the Material Transaction as it relates to a usually large degree of Capital Expenditure, Growth Plans and many other variables which could influence their shareholders. To meet HKSE Regulatory requirements they must file, as the terms of the order have been finalised. This is when Boeing books the order so as to meet their Regulatory reporting requirements.

So the HKSE does influence when and how Airbus and Boeing book their orders from certain Chinese carriers. It is the same with the Air China order for 24 frames just announced. Once they knew their allocation from the CASC and finalised it with Airbus, they had to file for transparency with their Shareholders under HKSE Regulations.

Quoting Abba (Reply 15):
You seem not to understand how the Chinese aviation market works.

Respectfully, from reading both our posts, I believe I do have a very good undertsanding as to how it works.

Quoting Abba (Reply 23):
Both Boeing and Airbus count their orders ONCE even if they do not count them at the same stage in the process. But they are all counted.

Again, with respect sir, re-read my posts in this thread and any others in order related topics on this forum and you shall see that I fully understand that both OEMs only count their orders once. Nor have I implied otherwise.

Some other members have have since posted and I'll add some of their quotes;

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 22):
Airbus doesn't count these orders twice

Read reply's #6 & #7 Scbriml knows it and I know it

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 25):
The whole issue is spin, and it is very confusing.

He knows it and it will get more confusing too as each carrier's order is transferred from the 150 total of 2005 on the Airbus Orders Spreadsheet and appears under that carriers name for that year. As for the "spin" Airbus need some good PR given what's going on so I don't blame them for being positive, the more so after their recent selection of where they will set up their Chinese production facility.

But the reporting could have been more concise as stated by Clickhappy

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 25):
Really all this is is an allocation of 24 units that are part of a 150 plane order.

Thus the press release should read something like "Today Air China and Airbus announced that the chinesse carrier would be taking delivery of 24 planes from an order of 150 planes from CASC..."

If Airbus used the same methology as Boeing, in the interests of total transperancy they should include a statement to the effect of the following;

these orders have previously been listed on our website in 2005 as part of the CASC order for 150 frames

But that's just me highlighting different terminology between to two companies

We'll see more announcements over the coming weeks and as I've stated previously I'm just pleased that we're seeing the initial allocations. No doubt Farnborough could provide the opportunity for further allocations to be announced.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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RE: Truth Revealed RE 2005 A320 China Orders

Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 25):
How can you purchase 24 airplanes that were already part of a 150 plane order? It makes it look like there were 2 orders, one for 24 planes, and one for 150 planes.

Well - you may say so. There usually is, however, also quite some press coverage when Boeing signs an umbrella order. I think that neither A nor B would abstain from some possitive spin in the press when given the chance...

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 27):
The A32X and B737 orders we are discussing are from 2005 and 2006.

Yes - what I was trying to point out was that while Boeing might not be able to count all their (let's call them) "umbrella orders" for 2005 in 2005 according to their system of counting they would have some "2004 umbrella orders" to count in 2005 that would balance that out to some point - in some years they would be able to count more and in other years less compared to Airbus' system.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 27):
Again, with respect sir, re-read my posts in this thread and any others in order related topics on this forum and you shall see that I fully understand that both OEMs only count their orders once. Nor have I implied otherwise.

I realize that now! I just got confused before I understood that we did not understand each other....

Abba

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